Room Conversation , Vṛndāvana , 1977-11-10

Bhavānanda: We should begin the parikramā in Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhavānanda: Because quite honestly, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think most of us are very worried. If you go off down the road and send us all back to our different assignments, we would not be able to serve with our full attention, knowing that our beloved father and spiritual guide was in such weak condition. So if we begin in Vṛndāvana, we're all here now; we can see, so that we know what arrangements to make for the future when you want to leave.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. You make me flat.

Bhakti-caru: [indistinct], Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break]

Jayapatākā: We heard that Your Divine Grace had a dream that a kavirāja of the Rāmānuja-sampradāya would treat you and bring you back to strength, and this kavirāja says that in a very short time, following the treatment, you would regain your strength. Although he hasn't got all of the medicines yet, but within a day or two they'll all be prepared, and he says within fifteen days you should be quite improved in strength. So far, he seems to have been quite sincere.

Prabhupāda: No, no, he's sincere. I'll drink milk. Whatever strength is obtainable, there will be.

Jayapatākā: Like to follow the same treatment, only while traveling.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [whispers] It's not part of the treatment.

Haṁsadūta: So we should meet and make a program for going around Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: You want to begin tomorrow morning?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (1): If Prabhupāda travels in a van it would be very bumpy. He should have a big bus.

Haṁsadūta: Let's discuss it.

Prabhupāda: Bus?

Devotee (1): A big bus.

Prabhupāda: No, no, bus will not be good. Bullock cart.

Bhavānanda: Bullock cart.

Jayapatākā: That is very bumpy.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Bhavānanda: Your Guru Mahārāja used to have bullock cart travel from Hoolaghat up to the Caitanya Maṭha. You told me you put a nice mattress down in the back and a cover, and you lay down there. You even told me once to go to Calcutta that way. You lay down at night; you go little bit, little bit; and in the morning, when you wake up, you're in Calcutta.

Prabhupāda: Bullock, you get the cow dung.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cook with it.

Jayapatākā: In this part of India it's very cold now for Your Divine Grace.

Prabhupāda: Underneath the tree it is not cold.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You sound like you are very determined to go, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Daytime we expose in the sunshine, and camp underneath a tree at night. That has to be arranged. [Bengali with Bhakti-caru; offers Prabhupāda milk to drink, then water]

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Should the devotees take prasādam now?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's about 1:30 now. After taking prasādam we can meet and chalk out a program for parikramā and tīrtha-yātrā. Is that all right? Okay.

Prabhupāda: I thought you have taken.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we were all surrounding you, listening very intently to all of your instructions.

Jagadīśa: Prasādam has been saved for the devotees that are here. I arranged it

Haṁsadūta: So what time shall we meet

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Three? Three o'clock we'll meet. So we'll have our meeting, Śrīla Prabhupāda, with Lokanātha also present.

Jagadīśa: Satsvarūpa also.

Prabhupāda: Four o'clock.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm? Yes. And then we'll begin tomorrow. Is that soon enough?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should we depart for taking prasādam now, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay.

Prabhupāda: Who is attending?

Bhavānanda: Upendra.

Prabhupāda: Upendra is very good attendant. [break]

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were discussing how to make this parikramā possible, and we've concluded that the best thing was, as we had said earlier, to parikramā around Vṛndāvana to begin with. And for that purpose we sent Lokanātha Mahārāja and Pañca-draviḍa Mahārāja and Trivikrama Mahārāja to get a bullock cart ready.

Prabhupāda: Hired or purchased?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, for now just hired, not purchased. Later on we can make a more permanent arrangement, and it can be fixed up as nicely as possible. At the same time while we were meeting, the kavirājī, he also was present. So we inquired from him what he thought about this program, from a medical point of view of course. Spiritually he is in complete agreement. So from a medical point of view, he said that you would not at all be able to withstand this kind of a trip. He said that in a bullock cart, moving around, bumping on the road, you might not be able to live more than a couple of hours. He's here now. He wanted to speak to you.

Kavirāja: [Hindi greets and asks Prabhupāda how he is]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi, describes program; conversation with kavirāja] Lokanātha?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Lokanātha has already gone, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Haṁsadūta: He has gone to Mathurā for renting.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has gone out for renting the bullock cart.

Prabhupāda: Oh. [Hindi]

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lokanātha says that the bullock cart could probably go around Vṛndāvana in about five to six hours, parikramming Vṛndāvana town.

Prabhupāda: Make an experiment. Then we shall decide.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda said, "Make an experiment. Then we shall decide."

Jayapatākā: What is that experiment?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jayapatākā's asking what that experiment is, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana parikramā.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda said, "Vṛndāvana parikramā."

Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, does it mean with Your Divine Grace, or we should go alone first and see?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Haṁsadūta: Does it mean that Your Divine Grace will come on the experiment, or we should go without Your Divine Grace and experiment?

Prabhupāda: Why?

Jayapatākā: See if the road is very rough, if the road is passable by bullock cart the whole way.

Prabhupāda: Bullock cart is not smooth.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bullock cart is not smooth. How would you propose that we go, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Come, let us take the risk.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: "Come, let us take the risk."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Go anyway. Let us take the risk.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: As your disciples, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we are all neophytes. We don't know what is right and what is wrong. But at the same time we feel that we're very hopeful that you'll get strength slowly and slowly. And this morning you were telling us that you get a little strength. So we are hoping every day that "Prabhupāda will gain even stronger and be with us for many more years." So we are taking advice from kavirājī that you take milk more and more, day by day, so that Prabhupāda will get stronger. Like kavirāja is suggesting that when Your Divine Grace gets stronger, he'll go with you in the parikramā; he will accompany you.

Prabhupāda: So let us make experiment in Vṛndāvana.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Shall we do that immediately?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Bhakti-caru: [Hindi about Vṛndāvana parikramā]

Kavirāja: [Hindi]

Bhakti-caru: Shastrijī's saying that he shouldn't do it under any circumstances.

Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if we follow the kavirāja's instructions and advice, then he feels that within fifteen days, twenty days, you will have strength. To take an unnecessary risk at this time, we have to practically appraise what will be the loss. You have said, "If I live or die on this parikramā, it will be glorious," but the loss will be that Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam will not be finished, so many works will be unfinished. If it's just a matter of being a little patient and waiting fifteen more days---is only two weeks---then when you have strength, then we can all go on the parikramā, and you'll be able to hopefully gain more strength and finish up all of these works. But I think that the risk, in terms of the future of the whole world, is too great.

Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana parikramā is not risk.

Kavirāja: [Hindi, advising against parikramā]

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you went on this parikramā the other day around the temple, you became dizzy just going around the temple four times. That's when you were even able to sit up in bed a lot more. How is it going to be possible to go for four, five or six hours, when you couldn't...

Prabhupāda: Not four, five, six...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's how long it takes to go around Vṛndāvana by bullock cart. It takes three hours walking at a good pace, and it takes at least five or six hours, Lokanātha says, by bullock cart. How...? We couldn't even go a half hour just around this temple.

Prabhupāda: No, I traveled. It takes two hours in the morning.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Walking.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: By walking.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But not by bullock cart. That's when a man walks very quickly, you can do it in two hours, but by bullock cart it will take five hours. We have... You had difficulty even doing a half-hour parikramā around this temple. You became very faint. Whether you think that you can go five hours in a row?

Prabhupāda: From Mādhava Mahārāja's Maṭha, bring Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should bring Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī here? Okay.

Prabhupāda: And Indu.

Bhakti-caru: Indu-mati Prabhu?

Prabhupāda: Indu-mati.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, Indu-mati.

Prabhupāda: Then talk.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma, you know Mādhava Mahārāja's mandira? You know Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī, Prabhupāda's Godbrother?

Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma: I don't know but I can...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [to another devotee] You know? So Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma will go with you. Prabhupāda wants to see Indu-mati and Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī. You bring them both. You go in one of the cars.

Bhavānanda: Are you sure you know which Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, in Mādhava Mahārāja's Maṭha. Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma---not the Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī from Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Mādhava Mahārāja's.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: As your humble disciples, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we are ready to take any instruction that you've kindly given us, but at the same time, you have advised us many times that we shouldn't take unnecessary risk. Just like few days ago you were telling a Bengali saying, saying that when you are doubtful, don't do it. You instructed us.

Prabhupāda: That is material. [laughter]

Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, can you tell us why you want to go on the parikramā?

Bhakti-caru: [Bengali to Prabhupāda about drinking some milk] [break]

Prabhupāda: ...good paddy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This seems like suicide, Śrīla Prabhupāda, this program. It seems to some of us like it's suicidal.

Prabhupāda: And this is also suicidal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm. Prabhupāda said, "And this is also suicide." Now you have to choose which suicide.

Prabhupāda: The Rāvaṇa will kill and Rāma will kill. Better to be killed by Rāma. Eh? That Mārīca---if he does not go to mislead Sītā, he'll be killed by Rāvaṇa; and if he goes to be killed by Rāma, then it is better.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who is this Prabhupāda's talking about?

Devotees: Mārīca.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? I mean, just judging the symptoms, which is all that we can do, certain symptoms have certainly picked up. For instance, you're passing more urine, stool is coming naturally, and you're able to drink milk without getting any cough. These things were never there before.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. That will continue.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So if the treatment is continuing, if the treatment is working, why not continue it under the guidance of this kavirāja for some time? His point is this. This is what I've seen, Śrīla Prabhupāda, being your secretary all these months, that whenever you took milk you would get cough. For the first time I see there's no cough coming. Another problem = you couldn't pass urine. Now there's double the amount of urine. Another thing = you couldn't pass stool. Now it comes normally. At least it comes without any artificial means. So the one thing that has not yet come is strength, and kavirāja is suggesting what you yourself had always said = "If I can drink milk, I will get stronger." So if the kavirāja's treatment... To my feeling it has worked. At least symptoms... The symptoms have been better under his treatment than any other doctor so far.

Prabhupāda: That will work.

Bhavānanda: It will work.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Also Śrīla Prabhupāda's resting better than before.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the idea is that... According to him... I mean, obviously we're all conditioned, and... I mean, he's not claiming not to be a conditioned soul either, but according to him, going on this bullock cart is a suicide. He said within an hour or two hours, the bouncing and, you know, jumbling of the bullock cart will cause a heart attack. Just like you were having heart..., a little heart spasm the other day, just laying in bed two days ago. He says this going in a bullock cart, up and down, within one, two hours it can cause heart attack. So as his treatment has been better at least than any other doctor, and certain symptoms have improved, why are we giving up his advice? If you say his advice is wrong, then there's no comment; but all along, his advice seems to have been more accurate than any other doctors that we've had. I mean, we who are closely around you, Śrīla Prabhupāda---your servants, secretary---our opinion of him is far superior than our opinion of any of these others. I see that he's able to take care of one symptom after another somewhat successfully. He's able to deal with these problems. He can deal with the problem of not enough urine...

Prabhupāda: That I know.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He feels quite confident that you can live for six, seven more years, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We also feel very confident.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Better that you live for six or seven years productively than that you go on this parikramā and die within two hours gloriously. Why not live for six or seven years and then go on parikramā and die? If the parikramā can always be done, why not put it off for six or seven more years of preaching?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: You've already been glorious, Śrīla Prabhupāda, all over the world. Whether you're here or outside doesn't really matter. You're already glorious.

Jayapatākā: By your presence countless souls will attain devotional service. That's more glorious.

Prabhupāda: But I think I shall be cured.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda says he thinks he will be cured by the parikramā. [Bhakti-caru and kavirāja---Hindi]

Haṁsadūta: Under the circumstances we have to consider whether Prabhupāda's opinion is more or less than the kavirāja's, is what it comes down to.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can't continue..., consider. Śrīla Prabhupāda has to.

Haṁsadūta: If Prabhupāda says that by going on parikramā he feels he'll be cured, then how can we continue to place arguments against him?

Kavirāja: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: Kuvera?

Kavirāja: [Hindi]

Jagadīśa: What did the kavirāja say?

Bhakti-caru: Shastrijī is telling Prabhupāda to ask the Kuvera's puṣpaka-ratha---that is airplane of Kuvera---and do the parikramā in that.

Adri-dhāraṇa: Then there won't be any bumping that way.

Bhakti-caru: And he's saying that if Prabhupāda asks for that, he will sure get it. [devotees chuckle]

Kavirāja: [quotes a Sanskrit verse] [Hindi]

[indistinct background comments by devotees]

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ultimately what Prabhupāda decides, we will do.

Haṁsadūta: Well, it just...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, but it goes on. As Prabhupāda goes on, his disciples also go on.

Kavirāja: [Hindi]

Bhakti-caru: Shastrijī's saying, Mahārāja... Shastrijī's saying that Prabhupāda shouldn't talk too much. It's bad for his heart.

Kavirāja: [Hindi]

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we can have kīrtana until Kṛṣṇa dāsa comes. Okay. [indistinct background comments by devotees] [kīrtana] [break] [end]