Conversation = "How to Secure Brahmacārīs" , Vṛndāvana , 1977-06-24

Prabhupāda: So people were inclined to send their children to gurukula. Now they are inclined to send their children to cinema, this, that... A difficult task to institute. Loafer class, they should be trained up as śūdras---in carpentry, in weaving. It doesn't..., do not require academic education. Simply make a skill. They'll learn.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're not after the loafer class.

Prabhupāda: No, no. They are not... They are also useful. But they are... Bringing them to the education, university, they are becoming loafer, ironclad. As soon as these low-class men are given education, he thinks, "Now I have become educated, baḍa bāpu. Why shall I work as a carpenter? I must have credits here." And they're bribing in government office, and sixty percent of the clerks---useless. They do not know how to make file, cumberous. Because everyone is going to New Delhi. And all fourth-class men are admitted. I have seen. If you have to find out an old file, you have to wait six months. Because these people are neither for this purpose nor that purpose.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I was thinking, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we should get this gurukula accepted by the government also so...

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Never do that.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, when our gurukula children apply for entry visas, they should give them visas right away, because these kids from abroad will come to India for gurukula...

Prabhupāda: Our program is open. Brahmacārī gurukule vasan dāntaḥ [SB 7.12.1]. We are training like this, according to the Bhāgavata. That's all. Never mind government.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you get accepted by the government, you may have to change your curriculum so much.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I mean, just this is a Vaiṣṇava institute, so when our students apply abroad for an entry visa, they'll get it right away, and they can get a student visa for four, five years. I don't think the gurukula kids come from abroad and then train them, six, you know...

Prabhupāda: No, no, the parents are prepared to pick up the expense. That's all. Government curriculum is useless. They'll enforce kids to take eggs, three eggs...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's right.

Prabhupāda: ...in daytime, and four pounds flesh, otherwise there will be vitamin, less vitamin. Or "Give them vitamins pills, this..." These... "Don't go to Yamunā. It is polluted."

Yaśodānandana: Even want to follow their textbook, follow their mundane textbook, we'd have to adopt.

Prabhupāda: Keep this institution pure, not that we have to make it impure. [indistinct] We want [indistinct]. If we don't get, it will remain vacant; but we don't want to introduce impure. That should be the principle.

Yaśodānandana: Should all the children of the parents in our society send their children here?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not?

Yaśodānandana: I was thinking we have many parents.

Prabhupāda: It is for them. It is for them, not for the outsiders.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And what will happen to the gurukulas overseas? There are many gurukulas...

Prabhupāda: And if we can maintain, maintain them.

Yaśodānandana: They should all come here.

Prabhupāda: But there the government says, "Make this like this. Make this like this. Make this like this."

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why you made this gurukula.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The Dallas gurukula was lost only for this purpose. They could not manage. Jagadīśa said the government was imposing this, that, this, that. Here you can do without...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There is no restriction, yes.

Prabhupāda: You bring students from all over the world. But according to our own selection. And if you make an ideal institution here, then the local men also will... The management is difficult. It is not so easy, that simply "I open my office here. I keep my bank here. I get my work." That is not management. Management is little difficult. Everyone is thinking, "Where to keep my leg? Where to keep my leg?" Nobody's thinking how to manage. The same thing, [Bengali]. "Warning = Don't keep your head on the northern side." He says, "Oh, where is my head?" So I can give you suggestion. Now you... So Akṣayānanda has gone...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The motorcycle has gone to bring the manager.

Prabhupāda: He is coming?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Will the manager come now? What is your guarantee that he'll come now? You should call him.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have already called him. [indistinct background talking, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa]

Prabhupāda: This is another management = without knowing whether he's coming, motorcycle.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right, sending motorcycle.

Prabhupāda: This is management.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you gave that example = If you want to kill a mosquito, use a gun. What does that example show...

Prabhupāda: Means four student and three hundred managers. That is mosquito and gun. [laughter] Student, you have got four. And managers? Three hundred. One manager requires three rooms, another four rooms. This is waste. One manager, first see at least fifty students. Then you can become manager.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Anyone who wants to call themself a manager, they have to maintain fifty...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So what kind of manager? But I am sure you can get students from outside, if not Indian students.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Indians will come when they see there's sufficient going on. Just like now they are doing...

Prabhupāda: No, they have lost interest. [indistinct] good character, that's all. They have lost all interest. They want this Hiraṇyakaśipu. They'll not want Prahlāda. He wanted son like him. That means fight between the father and the son. Son wants to be Kṛṣṇa conscious, and he wants to be political rākṣasa, and he becomes... Anyhow, we have got place. We have got. Try for. If you don't... Manage. And you are required to. Manage.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: [background conversation with Tamāla Kṛṣṇa]

Prabhupāda: That land we have got. Now you can make permanent.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a saying in English, "Don't put the cart before the horse."

Prabhupāda: Very first class place.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that building is built better than the Māyāpur building was built.

Prabhupāda: [indistinct-bad tape] Others, that we are purchasing, one. Otherwise, the idea was [indistinct-bad tape].

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is four buildings, joined together.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Perfectly utilizes that land. Inside, you want flower gardens.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In addition to providing flowers for the Deity, will people who visit the temple walk there, or it will be closed to them?

Prabhupāda: They can walk. This flower garden... Why not? Footpaths.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There can be a footpath.

Prabhupāda: But in the middle there must be very nice flower garden.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 'Cause sometime visitors, sometimes it may be noisy and disturbing to the students if visitors start to walk within the...

Prabhupāda: No, you can take them to walk.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should not be for that. For the special guests only.

Prabhupāda: [indistinct--tape fault] [break] So now our next business is to bring students, brahmacārī. So easy process is to approach wealthy[?] gentleman. In their family there are many children---one, two, three, like that. So approach them and plead them that "Children from your family are expected to be very respectable boys, character and devotee, educated. From your family, people expect like that. According to Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's instruction, he says, ko 'rthaḥ putreṇa jātena yo na vidvān na bhaktimān: 'What is the use of begetting children like cats and dogs?' The children must be vidvān, that is, learned, and bhaktimān, devotee. This is the ideal. And what is the use of begetting cats and dogs? Ko 'rthaḥ putreṇa jātena yo na vidvān na bhaktimān [xx]. Either he should be bhaktimān or vidvān. This vidvān and bhaktimān, that is ideal. So we are going to teach your son to become vidvān and bhaktimān. So don't you like to bring your son?" You have to tell them like that. And present it rightly. The prime minister and her son or his son, he is debauch number one. Do you think the society can be happy? The father and mother is prime minister, and the son is a debauch number one. What is this? That is going on. So we are... "For the good of the society you can send your son to become vidvān, bhaktimān. Then, after some time, you can engage your son in any way. That is the... If they are found it, vidvān and bhaktimān, then everything will be all right. And if gone rascals, then what good for the society? Just think." Am I right or wrong? You have to convince like that. What do you think about this?

Indian man (1): [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: This is the standard, vidvān and bhaktimān.

Indian man (1): [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: That I know because people are now debauch and uneducated. So they want their son to be debauch and uneducated, Hiraṇyakaśipu. Hiraṇyakaśipu did not want a child like Prahlāda. It was there formerly the misunderstanding took place. Prahlāda wanted to satisfy Nārāyaṇa, and he wanted to become a devotee of Nārāyaṇa. The father is asura. He wanted, "What is this nonsense, to become devotee? I wanted politics, diplomacy, cheating. You are studying." Presently there is a class of men, Hiraṇyakaśipu. They do not like to see their sons become Prahlāda. And our ideal is to create Prahlāda. It doesn't matter there are many Prahlādas. At least there must be... So we have got... How many rooms we have got?

Devotee (2): [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: At least one dozen rooms. [background talking] Twenty-six. So if fifteen rooms are taken by the Americans... How many students will be accommodated in one room?

Devotees (2): Four to five.

Prabhupāda: So fifteen to five, 250. At least 150 students you can accommodate them, nice. So arrange for that. And throughout India and the whole world you cannot bring 250? So is it very difficult to bring 250 students? So what kind of managers you are? So these things should be considered. [bad tape] [break] So if you have got any other questions, you can ask me. But first business is to bring students. We are open to the whole world, India also. Our society has got so many children. They are doing there, and some of them may come here. In this way it must be filled up with students. That is first business. Then manager arrange. "This manager will be in this room; that manager...," that is secondary. [laughs] First of all you must have students to manager over.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, should overseas gṛhasthas be encouraged to send their children to the Vṛndāvana gurukula?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Our devotees abroad, should they who have children, should they be encouraged to send their sons to the Vṛndāvana gurukula?

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is... Practically the gurukula was planned for our own children. We have got gṛhastha devotees. They will have children, and they should be trained up. That was the idea of gurukula.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There are a lot of boys in the Los Angeles gurukula.

Prabhupāda: Anywhere. There are lots and hundreds and thousands, but you have to collect them and give them proper education, vidvān, bhaktimān. Kāṇena cakṣuṣā kiṁvā cakṣuḥ pīḍaiva kevalam. So if you don't educate them as vidvān and bhaktimān, it is just like blind eyes, kāṇa, with some disease, simply giving trouble. That's all. Pluck it out. The medical treatment is pluck it out. So what is the use of begetting cats and dogs? According to our Bhāgavata philosophy, if one is not able to beget nice children, then he should not become father, mother. That is real contraceptive. Gurur na sa syāt jananī na sā syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum [SB 5.5.18]. The father-mother's duty is to stop repetition of birth and death. That is real father-mother. Otherwise dog is also doing that. Dog is also begetting children; man is also begetting. What is the difference? The difference is man should be responsible that "This child who has come to me, this is his last birth. No more birth again." Na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. "I shall train him in such a way, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti" [Bg. 4.9]. This is ideal. The means is already there. And Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma ca divyaṁ me yo jānāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. You can stop your birth and death, your son's birth and death. How? One who knows Kṛṣṇa, janma karma ca divyaṁ me yo jānāti tattvataḥ. It is open to everyone. Simply one has to know. And where is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself. So know yourself, let your sons know, and you become free. Everything is there. So that ideal we want to give to the world.

So throughout the whole world we cannot find out five hundred students? So what kind of manager? Hmm? This is ideal civilization, that people are suffering mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani [Bg. 9.3]. The human life is meant for understanding Kṛṣṇa and stop this repetition of birth and death. That is ideal. Kṛṣṇa says plainly that "If you do not take advantage of My instruction, then mām aprāpya: you'll not get Me." "So what is the loss, I don't get You?" Now, nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani: "Then you'll be again entangled in this birth and death." "What is the wrong there?" "Now, today, you are prime minister. Tomorrow you may be a dog. Do you like that?" But they have become so rascal that "Where is the wrong if I become a dog, that?" Here is your civilization. They say that "What is the wrong if I become a dog?" They don't mind even if they become a dog next life. Is it not? This is Western civilization. They say plainly, "What is wrong? I'll forget." Such degradation has taken place in the human society. We are trying a little bit to raise them. That is our humble attempt. Otherwise... Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyāḥ [SB 1.1.10]. All unfortunate, everyone; all bad, manda. They have created their own manufactured ideas. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayaḥ. Manda-mata and sumanda-mata. Bad, very bad. Why? Manda-bhāgyāḥ, unfortunate. They got this human form of life after so many births, and they do not take advantage.

This is going on. Knowingly they are drinking poison, and we are trying to save them. Very difficult task. Jāniyā śuni... This Narottama dāsa's song, a very practical and very easily applica... Jāniyā śuniyā... Nobody drinks poison knowingly, but these people, we are all drinking poison knowingly. They're refusing to take Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So little difficult, but very responsible task.

So at least bring five hundred students. Then it will be very nice, gradually. Respectable gentleman, big, big man, at least these big, big merchants, their student doesn't... Just like Birla family, other big, big... If they require some technologists, they can hire. There are so many tech... Technologist means śūdra. And actually they are doing that. They do not train their own sons to become technologist. They pay for that, the śūdras, as servants are... The Englishmen used to say these men, craft and technology, "educated laborer." They are laborer and little educated. There are uneducated laborer, just like carpenter. He doesn't require any education. If he knows how to rub on... What is called, that? That instrument? He doesn't require to become M.A., Ph.D. All these laborers are working so nicely. So why they should spend..., waste their time in going to school and college? From the very be... As soon as he's ten years old only, let him learn practically how to weave cloth, how to become carpenter, how become other craftsman. And in due course of time he can earn his... How to cultivate land.Why so many big, big universities for inviting everyone? There is no need. Educated means brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. Brāhmaṇa will give real knowledge, and kṣatriyas will govern. For vaiśyas and śūdras, there is no... It is waste of time. Formerly it was done so. The vaiśyas, they have got a son, goes to a shopkeeper = "Please here let my son work with you. He doesn't want any salary." So he gets engagement. Then, by seeing, seeing, he becomes little important. And the proprietor gives him some hand expense. And then, one day, he becomes very expert. He starts his own business. That was the system. Why he should go and waste time for education? A boy is given to a carpenter. He learns very easily. A weaver, he learns very easily. A shopkeeper, grocer, he learns very easily. That is education. Why he should waste time for academic education and create unemployment? So long he's not educated, he has got enough employment. Still they take in the morning, say, half a mound of ḍāl and goes home to home = [Hindi] So by selling after mound of ḍāl, he makes up these two, three rupees' profit. That's all. Where is unemployment?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I saw personally Hari-prasad Badruka in Hyderabad. He tried to send his son to college, and the boy kept failing. Finally he took him back, and immediately he took to business, because his father's a businessman.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He couldn't do it. He couldn't take to it.

Prabhupāda: This idea, that "My son should be B.A., M.A., Ph.D.," it is wrong idea. Why? What is there, Ph.D.s? First of all one must earn. Self-preservation is the first law of... But not... The Marwaris used to do that in Calcutta. Many pakorī. No business---he was frying pakorī and selling. Why unemployment? This is disastrous, unemployment. As soon as there is unemployment, there are so many devils. They'll plan. And the first plan will come---wine and woman. So we want to save the society from this downfall. At least keep one ideal. And that is our mission. Otherwise there was no neces... But at the present moment they cannot take so much trouble. We are trying to give them as much as possible comfortable life, but become an ideal vidvān and bhaktimān. That is required. Otherwise it is animal society. Prime minister's son is a debauch, rogue, thief. They are not ashamed even. And people are adoring him = "O Sanjay, you are Indira Gandhi's son. I take your blessing." Doing practically. He was very much anxious to see Sanjay Gandhi. So what did I say?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You said not to waste time with these...

Prabhupāda: "Don't waste time by seeing these rascals," I told him. Still thinking of seeing so many poli... I said, "No, don't see. There is no use." If a man is not of character, what... And especially if he's not a devotee---harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ [Bg. 7.15]---there cannot be any good qualities. Immediately he is rejected. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. As soon as one is not devotee, we tell him, narādhama. Bās. That's all, finished. Why should I waste my time with...? But for some business we have to do, associate. That is another thing. So the student, the ideal... Then think of managerial arrangements. "Don't keep your head on the northern side." And he searched out, "There is a whole head? Oh!" On the northern or western side. So anything, if you have to inquire, you can put. [break] ...create vidvān, bhaktimān. That is the Kali-yuga. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā upadrutāḥ [SB 1.1.10]. They like this disturbed condition. "Politics, diplomacy, crookercy, I like." This is the position. One is a great cheater, crooked, diplomat---"Oh, he's very nice." You have seen it. This Sanjay Gandhi ruined the whole Congress organization, and he was being worshiped. Just see practically. It is due to him that the old, oldest political party, Congress, is ruined. And he was being worshiped. This is society's position. And Morarji Desai, he's now prime minister, he was put into jail. This is going on. This is the example to learn. For nineteen months he was put into jail. How much it is troublesome. If I am asked that "For so many months you cannot go out of this room," I'll become mad.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They also would not let him take his morning walk.

Prabhupāda: Just see how much trouble he was in.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: After some time they allowed him to walk, but there were snakes in the garden.

Prabhupāda: Just... That is a psychology. I am not going out. But if I am ordered that "You cannot go out," then I become mad. I am not going out of this house, but if I have to maintain this idea that "I cannot go out," then I'll become mad. I know that I can go out whenever I like, but due to my diseased condition, I cannot go. That is another thing. But if I am able to go out and I am ordered not to go out, then I will become mad. This is psychology. So this is the position of the society---very, very bad. Our mission is para-upakāra, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. So if we actually want... This is very good opportunity to train up from the very beginning to create vidvān, bhaktimān, jñānavān. Others also, they may be given opportunity. There is everything in the śāstra. We are presenting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa has given all direction in every field of activity. So let us carry out the orders of Kṛṣṇa as it is, as far as possible. That is our duty. Now these my programs, they're also taking the concentrating people in the village, government?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's it.

Prabhupāda: That is required. But it will be a failure unless they are taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That... Like Gandhi's failure was there. He did not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because the material civilization means pravṛtti-mārga, and spiritual civilization, nivṛtti-mārga. Pravṛttir eṣā bhūtānāṁ nivṛttis tu mahā-phalām [Manu-saṁhitā]. So pravṛtti... Suppose he is in the village. He has to work with plow. And in the city, Goodyear Tire Company offering him twenty rupees per day. So he'll see that "What is the use of working with this plow? Let me go to Goodyear Tire." Then here the business will be finished. That is the position of India. So much land is lying vacant because there is no worker, and all the rascals have gone to New Delhi or big cities. And overpopulation? "Give them sterilization." Here there is no men to work, and they're sterilization. How the leaders... And who is leader? Another debauch number one, Gandhi, Mrs.... And she has produced a Sanjay Gandhi. Very precarious si...

So there will be no scarcity of simple living and eating. We shall give nice food, milk, and place. So bring student and teach them. Then gradually increase. They will preach throughout the whole world. The defect of the society, modern = the rascals are worshiped. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has given all in his moral instructions. He said, mūrkhā yatra na pūjyante: "Where rascals are not worshiped..." But at the present moment rascals are worshiped. And he says. He was experienced politician. He said, mūrkhā yatra na pūjyante dhānyaṁ yatra susañcitam: "In the society where rascals are not worshiped and food grains are properly stocked..." Mūrkhā yatra na pūjyante dhānyaṁ yatra susañcitam. Another... Dampatyo kalaho nāsti: "And where there is no quarrel between husband and wife," tatra śrīḥ svayam āgatāḥ, "all fortune will come there automatically." Svayam āgatāḥ. You haven't got to pray, "Mother Lakṣmī, please come to my house." She'll come. Three things wanted = You should not give unnecessarily honor to rascals, and you should keep your food grains very nicely, and don't quarrel, husband and wife. Then you become fortunate. Just see. Check how these instructions are there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nowadays none of those three are available. There is divorce, there is shortage of food, and all rascals are worshiped.

Prabhupāda: That's it. If there is no quarrel between husband and wife, you can be happy underneath a tree. You know Nala-Damayantī?

Indian man (1): Eh?

Prabhupāda: Nala-Damayantī?

Indian man (1): Yeah.

Prabhupāda: They were happily living by covering their one cloth. Still, they were living peacefully. They were so poverty-stricken. Rāja Hariścandra lost everything, but because there was peace between husband and..., they were living. Viśvāmitra saw, separately. There are so many instances. That is lost now, to live peacefully, husband and wife. Throughout the whole world became sour. And still in India, "Eh, I have no other..." There is stock of grain. So how many people have got stock of grain nowadays? Dhānyaṁ yatra susañcitam [Nīti Śāstra]. [laughs] Nobody.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even the government does not have a stock of grain.

Prabhupāda: What is this nonsense government? A combination of rascals and fools, that's all. Demon-cracy. Not democracy but demon-cracy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Demon-crazy.

Prabhupāda: Demon-crazy, yes. Crazy and demons. [Bengali] ...ideal brahmacārī āśrama, you should create. There will be no scarcity of food. There will be no scarcity of place. Now we have to organize. [Bengali]

Indian man (1): [Bengali]

Prabhupāda: Just bring the work and see how to do it. Viśvambhara is not here?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's gone outside. I heard his father- and mother-in-law came from Delhi today.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're the Howdar[?] There's a... They make the loudspeakers. They're very famous.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: His father-in-law?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that's Mr. Howdar[?].

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: [indistinct] sound system.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, he told me that he's going to get him to give a sound system for the temple, very first class.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Howdar sound system is there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's his father-in-law, his wife's father.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's from a very good family also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: Six months. What is that? [Bengali conversation] You learn it. That's all right?

Indian man (1): I think you have taken half. This is for three days, six days.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The morning, night.

Indian man (1): Prabhupāda, it is tasteful?

Prabhupāda: Not tasteful, not bad. It can be drunk. So that's all right. [Bengali conversation] This is evening. And morning you can give. Not very difficult. [Bengali] ...ideal institute. I am thinking so many things, but my life is ending. So keep this ideal, especially young men. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is the time that you start to take your massage.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Now you can go.

Yaśodānandana: Jaya oṁ viṣṇu-pāda paramahaṁsa parivrājakācārya aṣṭottara-śata śrī śrīmad bhaktivedānta svāmī prabhupāda mahārāja ki jaya.

Devotees: Jaya. [break]

Prabhupāda: [Bengali conversation, laughing with Indian devotees] So credit there must be. [Bengali conversation about bank] [break] [end]