Room Conversation , Vṛndāvana , 1977-06-17
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So is that because they can... They're in the heavenly enjoyment, but they see that that is not the ultimate. And unless they are born in Bhāratavarṣa and get the opportunity for perfection in bhakti, they cannot achieve that ultimate, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It seems that this is a very fortunate position, to be in this Bhāratavarṣa.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is favorable position. [indistinct---very faint]
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm. I was seeing tonight when I was circumambulating the temple that the people... I could see that they're enjoying this field of enjoyment, completely unaware of the rare opportunity that they have. And then I was looking at the Deities, and I was realizing that the whole purpose of this temple and our movement is to give this opportunity to people to utilize this rare birth properly. [break]
Prabhupāda: [extremely faint] [indistinct] Grandson says? What is that? "Grandson says"? Supersoul. Something very extraordinary. Triumphant. "I shall be triumphant." [break] [indistinct] That is Indian style. "Kṛṣṇa we must move. Now this child is trying to turn Himself. Turn Himself." There is ceremony. This is ceremony. This is Indian way of raising up children. Sada-bhakṣaṇa.[?] When we were small children, we were all, brothers and sisters, three mo..., three years before us. So naturally, when mother was young, she became pregnant. So there were three, four ceremonies during..., within the period of three years. One is called sada-bhakṣaṇa. Sada-bhakṣaṇa, the idea is... That [indistinct] he is dangerous. At the time of delivery the woman is in danger. There may be so many dangers. Therefore twice sada-bhakṣaṇa, at the period of seven months and perhaps in nine months. Whatever she likes, she should eat. So that ceremony, new cloth, very nicely dressed, taking bath, all the children---not only her children but other children also---very nice foodstuff made, and sit together, and with the children the mother will eat. And the brāhmaṇas should be given some charity. They will chant Vedic hymns. The same thing is being observed by Mother Yaśodā. That was the saṁskāra. Then utthāna. Then anna-prāśana, when the child is... So much care is taken for the children. And these rascals are killing children. They are civilized? To avoid botheration. What a terrible civilization. And they are claiming to be civilized. Full day[?] pregnancy their children will be there. And man and woman... That is meant for the woman, but... And before childbirth there is propaganda to kill. What is that?
Prabhupāda: No, abortion when pregnancy. No.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Vasectomy. Vasectomy. They sterilize.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, sterilization.
Prabhupāda: Simply propaganda not to beget children. "Enjoy sex life." What is this horrible civilization?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now it's come in India. This new prime minister, he still says, "Our goal is," I think, "twelve million sterilizations this year," and he's holding Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: A horrible position. People have lost their freedom, their culture, their spiritual life. Here so much care is taken for children, and they are so opulent. They are fully opulent and spending money lavishly for the welfare of the child. And they are spending money lavishly in the hotels, in the brothels, in slaughterhouse, the liquor shop, and kill. And this is going on as civilization.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't understand at all how to be happy.
Prabhupāda: Most uncivilized. Most uncivilized. I have described to you, "two-legged animals."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dvi-pāda-paśu.
Prabhupāda: And this cannot allow, discussion.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhāgavatam.
Prabhupāda: It is civilization of two-legged animals. They will say now they are taking pleasure. Is there any guarantee that if one has got two children, the government will take care of everything? Two children or three children or hundred children, the government is not able to guarantee. Why this humbug?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Government cannot... This government cannot guarantee anything. They have no power.
Prabhupāda: So why they are so much anxious, "You should not overpopulate"? Even in these days in India, in the interior villages they invite you that "Please come. We have got enough grain, enough milk. You eat with us. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." And they are going forcibly there to give this sterilization. They have no problem.
Śatadhanya: In Māyāpur we went on that boat down the Ganges. So we went... Even the poorest village man, he gave some banana leaves, some papaya---so opulent---fruits, vegetable, everything... [break]
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Make āṭā, kneading very nicely, just like you do for cāpāṭi, but make lump, round balls, around the fire. The same fire, upon one pot rice, one pot ḍāl. And down, these small, round āṭā. Just like you make for cāpāṭi. Go on. Then, after sometime, you see, everything is prepared. Boil very nicely. Then these ball should be put into ghee, and the ḍāl should be chaunced. It will be first-class.
Upendra: These āṭā balls, they...
Prabhupāda: Just like you knead āṭā. Same.
Upendra: And they're put into the mixture, I mean to say, the...
Prabhupāda: Make in the kandi[?] fire. Kandi fire is like this.
Upendra: Oh, yeah.
Prabhupāda: So upon the top there is one pot rice, one pot... And round that fire put these balls.
Upendra: Do you have to turn them?
Upendra: Turning them little...
Prabhupāda: When it is downside little blackish, then turn. It is difficult?
Upendra: No, it sounds very simple, almost too simple. You take these balls, bread balls...
Prabhupāda: Then put in a ghee pot.
Upendra: Hot ghee or just ordinary ghee?
Upendra: Melted ghee.
Prabhupāda: And dip it and take it out.
Upendra: This... I think this is a... This sounds like you're cooking out in the jungle.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It will be very digestive. You can try one day.
Upendra: Yes. Bread balls.
Prabhupāda: Put in kandi fire.
Prabhupāda: This gobar, cow dung chip.
Upendra: Cow dung chip is called kandi?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yellow[?] chip. They say in Hindi, kandi.
Prabhupāda: Or in Bengal it is called ghuṅṭiyā. Ghuṅṭiyā.
Upendra: Ghuṅṭiyā. Kandi or ghuṅṭiyā. And that's rice, ḍāl and... What are these balls? They have a special name?
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is called laktha. Laktha.[?]
Prabhupāda: This is the foodstuff for the tourists.
Upendra: For the tourists?
Prabhupāda: A man is working. Now he has got with him rice, ḍāl, āṭā. Now anywhere he can collect this dry gobar and set fire. And he has got his loṭā, and he's cooking. Very palatable and digestive.
Upendra: The balls, laktha, they're looking... I mean, when they are finished, they are looking brown or black?
Prabhupāda: No, brown. Brown and blackish spot.
Upendra: Black spots.
Prabhupāda: Then it is prepared, very... Just like loaf.
Upendra: Yeah, bread loaf.
Prabhupāda: Then put it into ghee. That according to your... Put it long time or keep it or take it, as you can digest.
Upendra: It sounds... You may have instructed some devotees like this long time ago, because in San Francisco the devotees would sometimes make... Instead of making the cāpāṭi, they would make the balls and put it in the oven and then afterwards put butter on it and sometimes honey. They like honey. They dipped them in honey. But it was the same thing, only put in the oven because we didn't have this cow dung chip. You may have instructed then. I never knew where they got this idea of putting the balls in the oven.
Prabhupāda: Oven is also good, but this is the best.
Upendra: This is the best. Best flavor, open fire.
Prabhupāda: So you can try any day.
Upendra: Kandi fire.
Prabhupāda: I may eat or not eat, but you try it, how it comes.
Upendra: Yes. First we'll get one...
Prabhupāda: You can purchase. The kandis are going on. Ask somebody to..., who can keep it.
Upendra: And we put it in the clay stoves, the clay, the clay fire pot.
Upendra: No? Just open on the ground?
Prabhupāda: Yes. No fire pot required. Simply gather together and set fire. That smoke is fire. It will increase. Just in a plate you can do it. This plate, the washing plate, that will do. It can contain four, five big kandi. That is sufficient.
Upendra: Rice, ḍāl and laktha.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Laktha. You can make experiment.
Upendra: Yes. I would like that. Sometimes we might find ourselves having to walk in...
Prabhupāda: First of all purchase some kandi. And keep it in corners of... In this veranda keep it.
Upendra: It keeps... I see the farmers, they keep it in...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Upendra: ...big... For long time.
Prabhupāda: They go out, loaded. Ask the caukidāra. He'll call.
Upendra: Yes, Prabhupāda. Do you want to go to the temple now? It's nine.
Prabhupāda: Half past nine.
Upendra: Half past nine.
Prabhupāda: Where is Tamāla?
Upendra: I think in the next room. I haven't looked yet. Should I call him?
Prabhupāda: Half past nine.
Upendra: Half past nine. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...you can put masalā, bhadraka,[?] little salt, little turmeric.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And if the pots are made of earth, earthen pot, it is still better.
Upendra: Still better. When earthen pots are cooked with, they are finished afterwards?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Throw it. That was the Hindu system. The earthen pot is used daily, and it is thrown away, especially for Deity. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu was sitting on the rejected earthen pots. Philosophy discussion was going on.
Upendra: With His mother.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So earthen pot is so nice. Jagannātha Purī, they cook in earthen pot and throw it away. It is very palatable. You can try an earthen pot.
Upendra: Yes. [aside:] I will make rice, ḍāl, and preparation called laktha, bread balls that go around a cow dung fire, in an earthen pot.
Prabhupāda: You can begin experiment---one, two, three---and become perfect.
Prabhupāda: It is very digestive, very palatable and suitable for me, this kind of food. Yes. It will automatically increase appetite, it is so nice.
Upendra: It all sounds very natural and wholesome...
Prabhupāda: So you can try.
Upendra: ...clay pot, cow dung fire, rice, ḍāl, bread.
Prabhupāda: So? When you are going?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whenever you're ready, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: I am ready.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. [break]
Prabhupāda: That is not his cooking. After he takes, his disciple may also take.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm.
Prabhupāda: Before leaving home I was loitering here and there, "If there is any shelter, this?" But that time in Harigrama[?], I stayed there for two, three days. Nice temple. He has construction of the work there. I'll try some of that... That is next.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your Guru Mahārāja had many disciples. Like you, he was very merciful. You have so many disciples, we have lost count.
Prabhupāda: I..., I have disciples all over the world. They have got specially in Bengal.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Special...?
Śatadhanya: In Bengal.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Bengal, local. Your Guru Mahārāja knew that you would do this, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. He foretold.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Time will come he will do."
Prabhupāda: That time I could not understand.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But he knew.
Prabhupāda: And in my horoscope there was written there, "After seventieth year this man will go outside India and establish so many temples."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really?
Prabhupāda: I could not understand. "What is this, that I have to go outside India? That is not..." And Guru Mahārāja foretold. He told my Godbrothers, Śrīdhara Mahārāja and others, that "He'll do the needful when time comes. Nobody requires to help him." He told in 1935. And after all, this was true[?]. Guru Mahārāja told. And in the beginning, first sight, he told, "You have to do this."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No one helped you. That's a fact. You asked that...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...Tīrtha Mahārāja for some help, but he didn't help at all. He wouldn't even give a little place.
Prabhupāda: Nobody. Everyone admits.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, when you intended to go to America, everyone was advising, "Better not go. It is too dangerous for someone of your age. Do not go." Someone even said that you might not come back.
Prabhupāda: I thought all this. I went to USA not to come back. I left India hopeless. I did not want to come back. I went with determination that "If I do this job, I will survive." So Kṛṣṇa helped me. I never desired to come back. It was 197... Er, no, 1968. You all helped, so I called you = "I want to return back. There are so many [indistinct]."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, you called me from France.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was in Paris.
Prabhupāda: Yes, and you were Paris.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: That "I want to go back. There is some conspiracy. Don't want."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said, "Take me out of here. It has become like fire." I remember. 1970, it was, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: No, it was 19... Maybe '70.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It was. August.
Prabhupāda: It was hint already, that "I want to go back."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, at that time we were massaging your heart. It was such a shock to you. And I remember, the only medicine you want... We were massaging your heart and reading Kṛṣṇa book. And you developed a very bad cough.
Prabhupāda: I do not wish to recall that. It was intolerable. Then these things were now brought to... Otherwise I did not like to come back. I would have stayed.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ahh. Wow.
Prabhupāda: I made my headquarter in Los Angeles. And they made some conspiracy against me. That's all.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I never understood that.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise I made it my own story[?]. [pause]
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, whatever the reason, by your coming here it was wonderful also.
Prabhupāda: That means Kṛṣṇa desired. Otherwise I had no plan to come back here.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your business was in the West. Still it is, you said. Still, whatever we're doing here...
Prabhupāda: Therefore I took this permanent residency.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not intentionally but... Do you regret having come back to India?
Prabhupāda: No, it is well. My plan was like that, but Kṛṣṇa's plan was different. When I was coming back, I was speaking to Dvārakādhīśa, "I do not know. I came here to live. Why You are driving me away?" While leaving Los Angeles I was not happy.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, I remember.
Prabhupāda: But He had this plan.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Pretty nice plan.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa wanted that "You left Vṛndāvana. I'll give you better place in Vṛndāvana. [chuckles] You were retired in Vṛndāvana. I obliged you to leave. Now you come back, I'll give you better place." So He has given a temple hundred times better than Los Angeles. Is it not?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's nothing comparable in the three worlds.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. So it is only by His desire. [break] That conspiracy was... [break] ...also. I did not discuss.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said that to us.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I gave some hint.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I could understand later on how it... Your hint I could understand more fully. Very subtle.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Anyway, now we're trained to the point where that can never reoccur. Not... Never. That could only happen because we were so new at that time.
Śatadhanya: Due to ignorance.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Took advantage of us. It's like... At first we were mongrel dogs. Now we are a little bit trained to keep away all the disturbers. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...opposition of my constructing a temple in Māyāpur.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From the very beginning. First you asked for land. That was refused. Then you sent money, but for three years---nothing. I think you sent money twice.
Prabhupāda: So many things also.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then we were even stopped by the elements, when we went... You took us, and we went and stayed at Devānanda Gauḍīya Maṭha. But the rain suddenly came so strongly, [Prabhupāda chuckles] we could...
Prabhupāda: Could not cross to the other side.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Then you said, "Perhaps Kṛṣṇa wants us to establish in Vṛndāvana and not Māyāpur." So you were going to send me to see this Madan Mohan to try to negotiate.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, forget the past. Push forward.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think you once said that sometimes Kṛṣṇa tests to see how sincerely the devotee is determined.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa not only tests but punishes those who are criminals.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Criminals.
Prabhupāda: Like Kṛṣṇa punished Durvāsā Muni. He was criminal against Ambarīṣa Mahārāja. Kṛṣṇa never tolerates. Vaiṣṇava may tolerate. Kṛṣṇa will never tolerate.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm going to go now to... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...without guidance of spiritual master.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Blind. We are blind, for sure.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is blind.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Especially we are the most blind. Your vision is the most keen.
Śatadhanya: That is the feature of your particular mercy. You have taken the most blind, the most fallen, hopeless, and you are succeeding in guiding them.
Prabhupāda: All right.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya... [end]