Morning Conversation , Bombay , 1977-04-23

Prabhupāda: ...sinful. And for this bluffing, they have spent millions, er, billions of...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It said thirty billion dollars just for that one episode. In the article the man says that many Americans already feel the same way he does, that it's a bluff.

Prabhupāda: From the very beginning I have said it is childish, 1958. I am not scientist. I have no... No, there are so many incidences. I never agreed, "It may be they have gone." They did not go.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has very elaborately described how they faked everything. He gave in great detail how each part of the hoax was perpetrated. The thing is...

Prabhupāda: The Apollo, they were dying. They prayed to God. This is also artificial. Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our conclusion was that those three men who died were killed; that they never knew that there was a hoax while they were in training. Then, at the time when the spacecraft was going to take off, they were told, "Now you're not going anywhere. This is only a hoax, so you have to act like this," and probably they did not want to. They refused. Therefore they were killed. We were discussing this yesterday, Gargamuni, Śrīdhara Mahārāja, Bali-mardana and myself. That was our conclusion, that those men must have been killed by the government.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise they'll disclose.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And thereafter no one else died. After that, others did not die, probably because they were told that "Don't you do the same thing or you'll meet with the same fate. Unless you toe the line and... Then you will also be dealt with very severely." Because they're such big cheaters, they will not stop at anything. Killing to them is nothing.

Prabhupāda: Killing affair should not be regarded criminal affair.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: They can kill even the president. Because they are meat-eaters, there is no mercy. What is mercy, they do not know. Vinā paśu-ghnāt [SB 10.1.4]. Paśu-ghna. Mercilessly they kill animals, and they become accustomed to merciless...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: That is Muhammadans' [indistinct]. They can do merciless thing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were discussing that this paper that it came out in is a small, very small paper. Probably... The question is whether any newspaper... I mean, why such a small newspaper carried the story and not a big newspaper? That is the real question. I mean, obviously the man must have gone to many places. But why no one would touch that story? That is the next thing. Because they're all afraid. They're also implicated. They all reported. That means they were also implicated.

Prabhupāda: I don't think we shall add in our...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we concluded that... The thing is that it's clear... This man will probably get no... No one will listen to him. Everybody will think that it is raving of a madman. Just like whenever the reporters... I remember the Los Angeles...

Prabhupāda: He has given very good reasoning.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everything is reasonable. But so were your reasons. Just like when you met with the reporter from Los Angeles Times, I remember last year... When this question comes up they, inside they are laughing. When they hear our opinion they think it is a joke. They cannot conceive that the whole thing could be a hoax. We were discussing that actually, that the nation is more dear to most people than their family is, because one will get divorce from his family, but who will give up citizenship? Very rarely does anyone give up his citizenship. But people divorce again and again. So to... The nation is something very strong, that affection. And nation, in America, means this moon shot, all of these things, the truthfulness of the leaders. So this is too shocking. Probably the American people could not swallow it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. [indistinct] Lie.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. Why no other newspaper carried the story?

Prabhupāda: It is only because I disbelieved, he disagreed. [referring to Puruṣottama?] He disagreed with me from that moment. He thought me foolish that I do not believe scientific research.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That was in London, I think. I remember.

Prabhupāda: He was a good boy, very good boy. Only for this reason he left. The whole institution he left. Where he is now?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have not heard from him. Last time he was staying with St. Paul.

Prabhupāda: Yes, the incarnation of St. Paul.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But since that time we have not heard anything.

Prabhupāda: That is also insanity. [sound of metal dishes] No taste.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The milk has no taste or you have no taste, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: I have no taste. And maybe [laughs] it has no taste.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In India there's no telling. Generally, recently the milk has been of a good standard, good quality. You might have more taste for lassi. That's a little sweet and nice.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And it's also very good for digestion.

Prabhupāda: So give me lassi.

Upendra: Now?

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because we get lots of that dahī. You drink it cool with a little sugar in it. I think it's good for digestion, dahī. How are you feeling today, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Not so [indistinct]. That jhuri was very heavy for me. Jhuri, jhuri. What is called?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Heavy. Yeah, I ate some and I couldn't digest it. Even now they're sitting. Very hard to digest. I tried to take some jirā water this morning to help to digest it. Then I took some dahī milk, and I think that helped. I drank a lot of dahī.

Prabhupāda: So you can give me little jirā water.

Upendra: [to Tamāla Kṛṣṇa] What time, do you happen to know?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Eleven... I mean, I won't say it's correct. I have eleven minutes after.

Upendra: Yeah, that's about right.

Prabhupāda: And the idea was to prove that Americans are better advanced in science than China and Russia. That was the only aim. Only for this purpose they spent three billions...?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Thirty billion. And I think also it keeps the people loyal to their... It's the same idea. If you're the best, then the people automatically follow you. "If we're the best nation, then all of our citizens will follow us, respect us, loyal to the nation, because the nation is the best in the world."

Prabhupāda: That is admitted by others. Therefore the Britishers, they took shelter of the Americans when they were defeated in Europe. And the Americans, they have got a special leaning towards British. Mostly they came from British Isles. For colonization, Britishers are most forward.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In previous years.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Previous centuries. The Spanish also. Spanish and Portugal, Portuguese. And Dutch. They were also active. But British was the topmost. France, not so much, I think. Spanish did quite well.

Prabhupāda: India was discovered by the Portugal, Portuguese, Vasco de Gama. Pondicherry is Portuguese colony. Goa. Goa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Pondicherry?

Prabhupāda: Goa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Goa. Pondicherry is in Goa?

Prabhupāda: No, near Goa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The whole thing was conceived by this Aurobindo.

Prabhupāda: He wanted to leave British possessions. No, Pondicherry was French.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, French. So that Pondicherry was Auroville's idea..., Aurobindo's idea? What was the motive?

Prabhupāda: He wanted to become a famous yogī to bring the world atmosphere in order.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Complete failure.

Prabhupāda: Complete failure. Kṛṣṇa says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15] = "It is a place for suffering." This rascal wanted to make it for enjoyment. Everyone is trying. Everyone is trying to make the commode a very nice room.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [laughs] That's a pithy saying. Actually you remember that... In your Devasādana, in your Detroit palace, that toilet, the commode there, is better than any man's house in India practically.

Prabhupāda: Very difficult to deal with the people of this world. They are so nasty. They can do anything.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're not at all civilized.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're like animals. You never know what they will do. We were again reading about rāma-rājya, and Lord Rāma decided to go out and to hear what the citizens were saying. So in one home He heard that there was some doubt. Sītādevī was pregnant. There was some doubt about it. Immediately He decided that she had to be sent away. So exemplary, His character. It's described how He was distributing. He distributed everything He had, and He had nothing but the clothes left, and Sītā had nothing but her nose ring. And the brāhmaṇas were so overwhelmed that they could understand that He was the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and yet He was such an ideal king that they gave Him everything back. So there is no such dealings like this nowadays between the government and the citizens. Rather, they elect some leader and then they rebel and try to kill the leader. Just like in Pakistan. Now they're trying to kill this Bhutto.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā? There was attempt to kill?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I mean they'd like to somehow rid themselves of him.

Prabhupāda: Pakistan is spoiled now.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there any chance of uniting with India again, Pakistan?

Prabhupāda: They will.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really?

Prabhupāda: Because otherwise they are finished.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They've already lost Bangladesh. That's half of Pakistan.

Prabhupāda: They have no economic position. Very poor. Very, very poor. No international relationship. Even their plane does not go international. Within the... They have no means to go. And who will, international plane, they will take, Pakistan?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no one.

Prabhupāda: Neither, except Iran plane, nobody can fly over. I have seen it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Air India does also.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There are some flights, Air India flights. That's natural, because there's business connections, India and Pakistan. Only Iranian planes.

Prabhupāda: Most unclean.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you think that they'll reunite.

Prabhupāda: If they want good. Separation on the religious consideration, that was the mistake.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That was...?

Prabhupāda: Great mistake.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. There are Muslims and Hindus here, no problem, in India.

Prabhupāda: And that sentiment was fanned by the Britishers.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah. [pause] Last night you translated only a little bit?

Prabhupāda: Not feeling at all well.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not feeling well at all.

Prabhupāda: It is being continued. It is being continued now and then.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Feeling ill. I really had a bad..., also, from these... I took these noodles, and I felt like they were sitting in my stomach without being digested.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Stopped up. That is the feeling. They were not made correctly, that's one thing.

Prabhupāda: [laughs] No, it was made correctly.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They were?

Prabhupāda: But it is very...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Heavy.

Prabhupāda: ...difficult to digest.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I had the ones that were not fried properly.

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So simply they were soaked with ghee. I got the rejected ones.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they were simply soaking.

Prabhupāda: Oh, they could not give.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Some of them were all right.

Prabhupāda: It has to be done in high flame.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. The ones they served you were correct, but still they were heavy. But the ones I got were probably the first attempt or something. So they had sunk to the bottom.

Prabhupāda: They never become expert. He'll remain student for life. [laughs]

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [laughs] It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks.

Prabhupāda: They are not old, but they have no intelligence. The hippie life spoiled them. Varṇa-saṅkara. Hippies means varṇa-saṅkara. No father, no mother; some are only children, doing irresponsible everything, making the whole situation hellish. How Bhāgavata predicted long hair? That is very astonishing. This confirms Bhāgavata's authority.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a very minute detail, prediction.

Prabhupāda: There are so many minute details, but this particularly...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why does it...?

Prabhupāda: ...strikes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why does it strike you particularly?

Prabhupāda: It is very insignificant thing, personal. And it is said, personally if you keep long hair, it will look... But it has been made here, it is said that "People will think like that, that he has become more beautiful." The psychology. Lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dharaṇam [SB 12.2.6]. They rejected all other things. Simply they'll think that "If I keep long hairs, I'll be very beautiful." This psychological study is there. And five thousand years before, prediction. How much authoritative the book is, just imagine. Is it not fact? Vyāsadeva's authority, try to... How perfectly authorized he is. They're stating psychological effect of people five thousand years ahead. Not only that, there are many descriptions what will be the name two thousand, three thousand years... Generally said, "This name will be like this. This name will be like this. Your son, grandson, great-grandson, what will be their names, this is..." So why shall we not believe just that statement of planetary system? If they are so correct... Planetary system is already there, but they are foretelling what in future, it will happen. That is my conviction. Therefore I don't believe anyone except Bhāgavata, Bhagavad-gītā. That is my science. They speculate. I don't believe it. Why shall I? And in the beginning Vyāsadeva said, kim anyaiḥ śāstraiḥ: "Take only Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam as the book of knowledge. Bās. You need not read any other." Nigama-kalpa-taror galitaṁ phalam [SB 1.1.3] = "This is essence of all Vedic knowledge." [pause] There are so many gentlemen here, they want to give their property, house, outside Bombay, to this institution.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Unless we can properly manage them, though, there's no use taking them.

Prabhupāda: Land, house, they are free. But there is no arrangement we can make.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think the real key is this book distribution.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we increase our book distribution, we'll automatically get...

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...people to join.

Prabhupāda: They're actually seeing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I meant that unless we make devotees...

Prabhupāda: This is a unique in the history that an Indian sannyāsī has done so alone. That is unique. It is recorded in history. So therefore they are appreciating. They can... They have got common sense that "These rascal go and talk." Now this Bala Yogi has stopped his activities.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Completely.

Prabhupāda: Because he has now come to know that if we can capture, it will be dangerous. And this... What is that? Transcendental Meditation?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who?

Prabhupāda: That Mahesh Yogi.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mahesh, Maharishi.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they're starting to get wise to him now.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're starting to catch on to him now. And when they do it's going to be a big scandal, because he really made it into the American..., all over the world, but especially in America. He even got into the Army. They were teaching Transcendental Meditation in the Army. Even in schools... He had it in public schools. He said, "It is not at all religious. It's science, and it should be taught. Just like you teach gymnastics, you should also teach this." So if this becomes exposed, oh... It'll also hurt us, indirectly, but actually it'll be good for us. But naturally they'll think that "All of these groups are now bogus." He's very much accepted in the public mind. But now the Congressional committees are investigating him.

Prabhupāda: And our is accepted.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ours is very accepted.

Prabhupāda: That's a great achievement.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That should be, this Congressional... Who has got so many temples?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they have a lot of offices, but they don't have any temples where Deities are worshiped. None of them. They don't touch Deity worship.

Prabhupāda: Rogues and thieves, what they know about Deity worship?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Neither they have any books.

Prabhupāda: Simply words, long, long.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Words. And promises.

Prabhupāda: And cheating. Cheating. Yes, everyone with common sense can understand that "What philosophy?" Here they see practically character, philosophy, devotion, faith, strict discipline. Any gentleman will appreciate.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, the gentlemen are very much impressed, especially, Mr. Mokta[?], people like that. They can see.

Prabhupāda: And Indians are appreciating that "Foreigners, they have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not Indians."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For the first time they can see that the foreigners are appreciating India's culture, not trying to squash it.

Prabhupāda: And practically applying their life, not that simply...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Official.

Prabhupāda: ...official.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's no doubt. And it is all due to your credit. Single-handedly, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Even now everything is being done strictly by your instruction and guidance. The only...

Prabhupāda: Now I am getting old, old age, not good health, so try to give me relief. Otherwise it is too much. Brain has to be taxed. But if my foreign business is there, if you tax my brain in this way, that will be suffer. So try to give me relief from this managerial... [pause] Still I can hint like this. But where is the work going on?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, you have to just point it out to me like that.

Prabhupāda: There is no work. So dangerous.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, I told some people to meet me, so maybe I should... Regarding this. They may be waiting for me outside.

Prabhupāda: Go. [end]