Room Conversation , Bombay , 1977-04-22

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But there's a lot of trouble, martial law in three cities.

Prabhupāda: [indistinct] Now they are fighting. [break] ...is now ruined.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Pakistan?

Prabhupāda: Yes. And just see democracy. People demanding that "You resign." He'll... [break] And from the very beginning, Pakistan is controlled by crooked men. They are Muhammadans, rascals, crooked, not cultured---crude. You won't find amongst the Muhammadans very great mathematicians, philosophers or highly... Very, very rare.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not considered a very high birth.

Prabhupāda: Condemned, especially the Indian Muhammadans. I had one friend. He is of Afghan... [banging noise] What is the trouble?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll just check...

Prabhupāda: So he was coming daily to see me in my pharmacy. We talked sometimes little intimately, friendly, with his son. So one day we were talking. Dr. Jiva also was attending. So one Muhammadan woman... They're very dirty. So she was pressing to go to see doctor, and that... His name was Ser Khan. He belonged to the royal family of Afghanistan. So he was doing like this. [gesticulates] So I said, "You hate Muhammadans?" She is Muhammadan woman. "Oh, we don't accept Muhammadan. They are dirty[?]." That means Indian Muhammadans are not even accepted as Muhammadans in other countries.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was a Muhammadan.

Prabhupāda: He was Muhammadan, Afghanistan. Very royal family.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: So he was doing... [gesticlates] "Well, she is Muhammadan woman. You hate?" "Oh! They are not Muhammadans. We don't accept them." These are my personal experience. They do not accept. Turkey also refused. When there were wars the..., some of the Muhammadan leaders, Muhammad Ali, they wanted to present himself. He refused to accept. He said, "Go! You are not to see your business." His name was... He was very famous man. So they want to mix with the other Muhammadan countries like Afghanistan, Turkey... [break] They do not like. And actually it is a fact. Indian Muhammadans means all low-class Hindus, they converted into. That's all. Christian also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: And no brāhmaṇas were converted.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: They did not accept. Therefore we see there is indirect indifference with our temple. Did you mark it? The high-class Hindus, they do not very much appreciate our...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Which one?

Prabhupāda: Our temples.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our temples?

Prabhupāda: Because it is managed by the Americans. Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In all of our temples here? All of our temples here. Yeah, actually people like the Samanis, they don't... They come to see you, but they don't... Even the Deity may be superbeautiful, superexcellent, but they won't go near Him.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I wanted these harijanas. Harijana.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 'Cause they don't distinguish like that.

Prabhupāda: No. They are searching after some guide.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I've notice in Bengal, the aristocratic Bengalis, they come to our temple.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean, Bengalis, they're more intelligent.

Prabhupāda: They are educated.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're not smārta, not like that.

Prabhupāda: And these other countries, they are smārta.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: South, South Indian...

Prabhupāda: Yes, South...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Bengalis, they really appreciate the devotion. They see how nice, and they come. Never mind who is doing it.

Prabhupāda: No, in Vṛndāvana also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Same. They appreciate. Or they don't?

Prabhupāda: No, not appreciate.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they're a little standoffish.

Prabhupāda: They're envious.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You tried to placate them by inviting all those brāhmaṇas for the installation ceremony.

Prabhupāda: Now I am not...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But still, they were not placated.

Prabhupāda: Now we do not care for them. Our temple is now crowded. That is in beginning, just to show that we are going through real ritualistic... I spent ten thousand rupees on that performance just to make a show.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They charged ten thousand rupees?

Prabhupāda: Yes. What can I do?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [chuckling] It was a good show.

Prabhupāda: If I do with our men, then it will not be recognized as temple.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's a fact. No, it was properly done.

Prabhupāda: "Any or other, take. Finish that business." Now I don't want. I don't care for them. Our temple is always crowded. My achievement is there. In the beginning I spent. Now every, all over India, they are praising me.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Architect of the Bhagavad-gītā boom." That's how they praised you in the newspaper yesterday.

Prabhupāda: That's a fact.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was amazed to see how much you translated last night. You translated more last night than in months. Almost 200 digits. I think it was 190. I think eating these pakorās at night is giving you strength.

Prabhupāda: No, not that. Something must be eaten. I was feeling weakness in the evening. But what can I eat? I have no taste for fruits. Milk also, not very much taste I have got. Naturally I won't eat now[?].

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have a taste for nim.

Prabhupāda: That is compulsory. Whatever little benefit is there in the leaf of nim... Still, I have got taste for nim begun. You like that? I think I shall take little, little milk.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Milk.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. That will give strength. Milk produces strength. And it is suitable for everyone = children, diseased, invalid, old men. It is such a nice food. Everyone, in any condition, can get some benefit.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And we're getting fairly good milk now.

Prabhupāda: So good milk, you give little; not at a time much. Half a cup. So I said these political rascals... Just see. Trouble. They don't want democracy. "And we'll by force remain." Where is the democracy? Indira Gandhi wanted to give like that. Where is democracy? Vote rejected him that his election was invalid. Still, he would call, "Emergency." People of Kali-yuga, unfortunate, they are controlled by these fourth-class, tenth-class men. All unhappy. Nobody is in peace. That is also punishment, because they are godless. Nobody will come to hear us, follow us, and they'll be punished by these politicians. They'll corrupt.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, we were reading today how the wife of Rāvaṇa, when she saw her husband, she was addressing him as "The king of the asuras, how you have given everyone trouble. And now surely your body will be eaten by vultures and you'll go to hell." So Nava-yogendra Mahārāja was commenting that now..., at that time there was only one Rāvaṇa; now the whole world is filled with Rāvaṇas, and they're all going to go to suffer the same fate. Of course, we may be able to give them the opportunity of this movement, reading your books. That may be their only chance.

Prabhupāda: There is no doubt about it. Therefore big, big men, scholars, they are so appreciating = "The scholarship and devotion." Yes. They have marked this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, both things are marked.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Combination.

Prabhupāda: That is... Rarely they found. Therefore they appreciate. One may comment on scholarship. That is jñāna. And devotion without scholarship---sentiment. Just see. They're both combined. Perfect knowledge. That is wanted. That is my Guru Mahārāja's... He used to say, "Philosophy without religion is dry speculation, and religion without philosophy is sentiment."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, you wrote this in your purport in Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: That should be confirmed[?]. Caitanyera dayāra kathā karaha vicāra. Don't accept it blindly. We have not accepted Caitanya cult blindly. This is practical. The purpose was separate from India to become happy. Where is the happiness?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Civil strife.

Prabhupāda: And that is real happiness?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Not they are. And this was the British plan = "So they are driving away? All right, make such arrangement. They'll perpetually remain unhappy."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They knew they were losing, so they thought, "Let everyone lose along with us. No one shall win."

Prabhupāda: That is natural. "If you become my enemy, I shall be your enemy." That is everywhere. Material world means that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was shocked to see that the mangoes... Did you see the price that they're being sold for? They are now selling in the market here for one hundred rupees a dozen.

Prabhupāda: [in disbelief] Hmm?!

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One hundred rupees a dozen they are being sold for, and they are being sent to the Gulf states, to the Arabs, and the Arabs are paying up to five hundred rupees a dozen for Alphonso mangoes. Fifty rupees per mango they are willing to pay. So the newspaper commented that "It may be that the poor people will not eat mango this year." Mangoes are so costly, over double the cost of last year.

Prabhupāda: Fifty rupees, twenty-five rupees per mango---who will pay?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nobody. Of course, here in India they won't be so costly. The most costly ones are selling for one hundred rupees a dozen, so about eight rupees apiece. But then you can get lesser quality, and once the season is more in, then it will be available. But they are becoming increasingly costly. But isn't that an unheard-of price? In your childhood I don't think they were that costly.

Prabhupāda: One rupee, dozen.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Phew! Good ones?

Prabhupāda: And later on, '53 or so, we saw, one rupee, half a dozen.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very cheap.

Prabhupāda: So now they are getting fifty rupees. Time will come = even if you pay five thousand rupees, you won't get one mango. That is coming.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They won't be around anywhere.

Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Even you pay five thousand rupees, you won't get. And if you get, it is simply the seed; no pulp.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Pit and skin. That means it will be very difficult to execute patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam [Bg. 9.26]. There won't be those things.

Prabhupāda: Last problem[?]. Better to go back home as soon as possible. One life, do all penances, all austerities. Simply stick to the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, and the business is finished.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're sticking to your lotus feet, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Who knows the secret? It is in the Bhāgavatam.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Today I was reading a very beautiful section of Caitanya-caritāmṛta that Kṛṣṇa comes in the form of the spiritual master. And then that...

Prabhupāda: Spiritual master is a revelation of Kṛṣṇa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Guru-kṛṣṇa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It was mentioning how the initiator spiritual master is the representative of Śrī-Śrī-Madana-mohana, and the instructing spiritual master is a representative of Śrī-Govindadeva. Very nice explanation you gave in the purport.

Prabhupāda: As far as possible, I have tried to present. In one place I have criticized my Godbrothers.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Last night?

Prabhupāda: No, no, in Caitanya-caritāmṛta.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah, at the end, in one line. We were... When we read that, it was actually relishable; very personal.

Prabhupāda: Śrīdhara Mahārāja is little...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He read it?

Prabhupāda: I think so.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did he make any comment?

Prabhupāda: He cannot make any comment. These are facts. Two parties there were. One party, to use guru as their instrument for sense enjoyment, and another party left guru. So both of them are offenders. This Kunja Babu, this Tīrtha Mahārāja's party, he wanted to enjoy senses through guru. And the Bagh Bazaar party, they left.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Vāsudeva.

Prabhupāda: So both of them are severe offenders.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about Śrīdhara Mahārāja?

Prabhupāda: Śrīdhara Mahārāja belonged to the Bagh Bazaar party. And I was living aloof. My Guru Mahārāja approved. He said, "It is better that he is aloof from them."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He could understand that his disciples were not...

Prabhupāda: No, he was very sorry. At the last stage he was disgusted.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But that... That doesn't mean that your disciples should think also, "I will remain aloof, just as our Prabhupāda..."

Prabhupāda: No, that I have not said. Therefore I used so strong word on the..., our Surabhi's action. This was made independently. He has written. He has given photograph. That is not good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, I took that as a good instruction to all of us, your rebuking.

Prabhupāda: I told him that "You cannot do so independent. You are doing nice, but not to do in the... You admit." [pause] People complained against Haṁsadūta. Did you know that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm not sure of the particular incidences, but I've heard general...

Prabhupāda: In Germany. In Germany.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The devotees there.

Prabhupāda: So many complaints.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Therefore change is good.

Prabhupāda: No, you become guru, but you must be qualified first of all. Then you become.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, that kind of complaint was there.

Prabhupāda: Did you know that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, I heard that, yeah.

Prabhupāda: What is the use of producing some rascal guru?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I have studied myself and all of your disciples, and it's clear fact that we are all conditioned souls, so we cannot be guru. Maybe one day it may be possible...

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...but not now.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I shall choose some guru. I shall say, "Now you become ācārya. You become authorized." I am waiting for that. You become all ācārya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The process of purification must be there.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, must be there. Caitanya Mahāprabhu wants that. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. "You become guru." [laughs] But be qualified. Little thing, strictly follower...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not rubber stamp.

Prabhupāda: Then you'll not be effective. You can cheat, but it will not be effective. Just see our Gauḍīya Maṭha. Everyone wanted to become guru, and a small temple and "guru." What kind of guru? No publication, no preaching, simply bring some foodstuff... My Guru Mahārāja used to say, "Joint mess," a place for eating and sleeping. Amar amar ara takana[?] = "Joint mess." He said this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That word "mess," by that word he meant eating, messing, eating?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Messing, there is a system. Some clerks, they make a small cooperative hotel. In India there are many.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That I see in South India sometimes... In places like hotels I see.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Men who work, they all come...

Prabhupāda: Cooperative effort.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So he called that a joint mess, and he said that some of the disciples were doing like that.

Prabhupāda: He knew that. What is the use? Tīrtha Mahārāja's defense was that. "These people..." They were fighting with Tīrtha Mahārāja in the court, that "Tīrtha Mahārāja was not good." Tīrtha Mahārāja's only defense was "All right, you want to combine to make a guru. All right, why don't you combine yourself for preaching?"

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was his defense?

Prabhupāda: That "You want to work jointly, so why you do not work jointly? You are jointly working to harass me. Why not preach jointly?"

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was their reply?

Prabhupāda: No reply.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So it was a good defense.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "You have joined together to defeat me. Why don't you preach jointly? What do you want? That I shall also join, and we shall jointly preach. Do this. You are divided amongst yourselves, and you have joined together to defeat me." Śrīdhara Mahārāja is the leader.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of that group.

Prabhupāda: Mādhava Mahārāja also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mādhava Mahārāja is.

Prabhupāda: For the last forty years they're fighting in the courts. They indirectly wanted me also to join them = "He has got money. If he joins, then our monetary..., financial help will be there." That is their...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīdhara Mahārāja. I remember a letter they wrote you in Los Angeles in 1969. You replied them, "Yes, I will join, but since I have preached in nine..., eleven-twelfths of the world, eleven of my men will be representatives, and you can put one."

Prabhupāda: [laughing] Yes. Yes, according to the area, my representatives are there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now there should be all twelve. [Prabhupāda laughs]

Prabhupāda: Another Godbrother, he asked me fifty thousand rupees to maintain his temple.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How much?

Prabhupāda: Fifty thousand. So I said, "Yes, I can give you fifty thousand, but this is mleccha money. You'll be polluted. Best thing is that give. We can maintain. I'll immediately deposit fifty thousand." He has stopped. [laughs] "We are mlecchas. I am the leader of the mlecchas, so my money will pollute you. But if you are feeling difficulty, you hand over the temple to us, and on condition I immediately deposit fifty thousand in the name of the temple."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then he was not interested. Suddenly his problems were solved. He didn't take the money.

Prabhupāda: Money is not mleccha. But when we offer to eat something, we are mleccha.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No one will take... A lot of the men, people, will not take prasādam at our temples for the same reason.

Prabhupāda: Now they are taking. And some of them are not.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some swelling in the stomach?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? No, I am feeling all right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's getting to be time for your massage, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Time now.

Prabhupāda: Stick to our principle, and see our GBC is very alert. Then everything will go on, even I am not present. Do that. That is my request. Whatever little I have taught you, follow that, and nobody will be aggrieved. No māyā will touch you. Now Kṛṣṇa has given us, and there will be no scarcity of money. You print book and sell. So everything is there. We have got good shelter all over the world. We have got income. You stick to our principles, follow the... Even if I die suddenly, you'll be able to manage. That's all. That I want. Manage nicely and let the movement go forward. Now arrange. Don't go backward. Be careful. Āpani ācari prabhu jīveri śikṣāya. Some eau de cologne smell? Eau de cologne?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What kind of smell?

Prabhupāda: Eau de cologne.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Eau de cologne?

Prabhupāda: I have got it, but I think it is... He has used.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is using. Yeah, I don't use. Sannyāsī...

Prabhupāda: No, eau de cologne is good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He may be using.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In the Western countries, they use, everyone.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah. So Gargamuni did pretty well with those standing orders. No sooner... He says that actually you knew that it was going to happen, so you wanted him to get some glory, so you arranged like that. [Prabhupāda laughs]

Prabhupāda: Everyone engaged in some particular department, he must improve and... Then things will go on nice. Upendra is very neat.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is.

Prabhupāda: If required, he can cook also. He knows how. I gave... In the beginning he was cooking. He was from very beginning. Good or bad, he was doing. Gaurasundara and his wife, they were our secretaries, and he was cooking in the San Francisco.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember that. Yeah, if he ever has to cook, I can give massage if necessary.

Prabhupāda: [indistinct] was working as postman. [end]