Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 2.3.20 , Bombay At Cross Maidan Pandal , 1977-03-24
Hṛdayānanda: ...my spiritual master, His Divine Grace Oṁ Viṣṇupāda Paramahaṁsa Parivrājakācārya Aṣṭottara-śata Śrī Śrīmad A. C. Bhaktivedanta Goswami Mahārāja Prabhupāda, who has opened my eyes with the torchlight of knowledge while I was standing in the darkness of ignorance.
So on behalf of our spiritual master, jagat-guru Śrīla Prabhupāda, we take this opportunity to welcome all of you, very cordially, to this Third International Bombay paṇḍāl, in order to push forward the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in this city of Bombay, which is one of the world's important cities. So, as you have been hearing from our spiritual master, through his books and his disciples, the actual purpose of human life is to understand God. As it has been quoted from the Vedānta-sūtra, athāto brahma jijñāsā: the human form of..."Now you should try to understand what is Brahman." In other words, we can understand that externally we are covered by a particular body, material body, either Indian body or American body, German body, English body or Christian or Hindu body, or even animal body. Of course, the animals cannot understand, but at least we can understand that I have accepted a particular body due to my previous activities. As it is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu.
bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān
kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya
By my desire, I have associated with particular modes of material nature, either sattva-guṇa or rajo-guṇa or tamo-guṇa, and by my desire, by that saṅga, guṇa saṅga, I have accepted a particular body. Sad-asad-yoni-janmasu: either I have accepted the body of a demigod or I have accepted the body of a man or I have accepted a hellish body or animal body, but I have accepted some body within this material atmosphere, and due to that body which I have accepted, I will have to suffer.
So we can analyze, in this human form of life, that that body which I have accepted, that is asat, temporary. As Prahlāda Mahārāja says, asat-grahām, we have accepted the asat, and we have forgotten that which is sat, or eternal. Therefore it is said, durlabha mānuṣa janama sat-saṅge: now, in this mānuṣa-janama, which is so difficult to obtain, we should take the opportunity and associate with that which is eternal. Otherwise, if we cannot take this opportunity to find out what is eternal, or Brahman, whatever we are doing at the present time, that is useless, because by the subtle power of time it will be finished, whatever it may be. As Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā [10.34], mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham: "I will come as death and take everything away."
So therefore, as our spiritual master His Divine Grace Śrīla Prabhupāda is tirelessly and so eloquently preaching all around the world, people should not remain in darkness, falsely identifying themselves with this temporary material body for sense gratification, but they should come out of this darkness and try to understand that they are eternal. Their real position is eternal, and they are eternal servants of Kṛṣṇa. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108]. It is no use trying within this material world artificially to become master. No one will become master, because everyone, every one of us, by our constitutional nature, we are servants. As it is said in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, ekala īśvara kṛṣṇa, āra saba bhṛtya [Cc. Ādi 5.142] = "The only master is Kṛṣṇa. Everyone else is His servant." Therefore we may try by so many means---by national strength or by our own economic strength or by our military strength, bodily strength---we may try to become master, but we are not becoming master. We are under the grip of material nature, and we will be smashed, and again we will have to take another body. That body will also be smashed, and again we will take another body, and that will also be smashed.
So this is going on, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [SB 2.10.43]. Therefore we should understand that we are tiny spiritual sparks. As it is said in the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam, keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatāṁśa-sadṛśātmakaḥ [Cc. Madhya 19.140] = our real constitution is that we are minute spiritual sparks, one ten-thousandth of the tip of a hair, keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatāda. So we are by nature servants; we are part and parcel of the Supreme Spirit, Kṛṣṇa. We can never become independent. Just like the finger is part and parcel of the body, so that finger can never be independent. The finger has no independent existence outside of the body. If the finger is cut off from the body and falls down on the ground, then it is useless; it has no value. While the finger is attached to the body, we may pay millions of rupees, crores of rupees, to save our finger, but once it is cut off, then we kick it away; it is useless. So in the same way we are by nature infinitesimal, we are tiny spiritual sparks, part of God, and if we break that connection with the Supreme Lord, our existence has no meaning; it is useless existence. Just like the spark of the fire, so long it remains in the fire it is fiery, it has heat and light, but as soon as that spiritual spark falls out of the fire, it is immediately extinguished. In the same way, as soon as we lose our connection with Kṛṣṇa, our existence, our spiritual life, eternal life of bliss and knowledge, becomes extinguished by the material atmosphere. But just as that spark, extinguished spark, can again be placed inside the fire and his real fiery nature can be revived, in the same way, as soon as we again establish our lost relationship with God, Kṛṣṇa, at that time we can again enjoy our eternal life of bliss and knowledge. And that connection is called yoga, and Kṛṣṇa says,
śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ
sa me yuktatamo mataḥ
"Of all yogīs, that yogī who simply becomes My devotee, who is worshiping Me within him, understands that I am within his heart and he is loving Me, he is the greatest yogī. He actually has understood his eternal life."
So on behalf of our spiritual master, His Divine Grace Śrīla Prabhupāda, jagat guru, we are humbly taking this opportunity to invite all of you = Please take advantage of this great Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, which was begun five hundred years ago by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Actually, this movement began at the beginning of the universe, as it is said in Śrīmad Bhāgavatam [1.1.1], tene brahma hṛdā. This knowledge was first given to Brahmā, and Brahmā gave this knowledge to Nārada. Nārada gave this knowledge to Vyāsa. Now this same knowledge is coming down through His Divine Grace Śrīla Prabhupāda in disciplic succession, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam [Bg. 4.2]. It is the same process which has always being going on. We may not know it due to our ignorance, just like Arjuna also did not know it. He said to Kṛṣṇa:
paraṁ janma vivasvataḥ
katham etad vijānīyāṁ
tvam ādau proktavān iti
He said, "Kṛṣṇa, You are the same age as me. How can I understand that You spoke to the sun-god millions of years ago?" So just as Arjuna had forgotten by Kṛṣṇa's yoga-māyā the eternal nature of this process, we may also forget and think that it is a Hindu movement or an Indian movement. But we have to understand that it is an eternal movement to get the conditioned soul back into his eternal position in the spiritual world.
So Śrīla Prabhupāda is a pure representative of Kṛṣṇa, and he is presenting the only effective process in this age. This is the best place in the universe to practice Kṛṣṇa consciousness, Bhārata-varṣa. This is the best place because it is here that the incarnations of Kṛṣṇa are coming, the great ācāryas are coming. Therefore this is the best place in the universe to become perfect and go back to home, back to Godhead, and Śrīla Prabhupāda has given us all this opportunity. Let us take advantage, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, study this knowledge seriously and perfect our human life.
Thank you very much.
Audience: [applauds] [end]
Prabhupāda: ...great responsibility of preaching the message of Bhagavad-gītā throughout the whole world. It is meant for the human being and---do not mind it---it appears that rarely a human being is found there to take up the responsibility in India. They're talking all nonsense. The real message of Indian culture is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati [Bg. 18.68]. Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ [Bg. 18.69]. Kṛṣṇa says at the end of His instruction that anyone who is taking the responsibility of preaching the message of Bhagavad-gītā to the devotees... Because unless one is devotee, one cannot understand what is Bhagavad-gītā. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg. 18.55]. To know Kṛṣṇa superficially, that is a different thing. You can imagine anything nonsense. But if you want to know Kṛṣṇa as He is, that requires the intelligence.
kaścid yatati siddhaye
yatatām api siddhānāṁ
kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ
So we have to understand Kṛṣṇa tattvataḥ, as He is. This tattvataḥ word has been used in several places in Bhagavad-gītā. Janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ [Bg. 4.9]. Here is one tattvataḥ. Kṛṣṇa's appearance and disappearance is not ordinary thing. Yo jānāti tattvataḥ: "Anyone who understands in truth..." So what is the result? Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9] = immediately becomes liberated. Immediately he becomes eligible not to accept anymore this material body. Tyaktvā deham. Everyone has to give up this body, material body. You cannot remain permanently Indian or this party or that party. You have to change your body, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. So why should you waste your time in this way, that "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am horse," "I am cat," "I am dog"? There is no difference. If a dog is thinking that "I am dog," and if I am thinking "I am Indian," where is the difference? The mentality is the same = I'm identifying with the body. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke. Anyone who is thinking of this body as himself,
sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijya-dhīḥ
yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij
janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ
Go-khara. Go means cow, and khara means ass. Anyone who's identifying with this body as self, he's go-khara, animal. So this animal civilization is not meant for India's culture. India's culture is different. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. This is India's culture. Why should we identify ourself as animal---"I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am this"? It is wrong type of civilization, go-khara civilization.
So our little attempt is... We are not manufacturing anything. We are not manufacturer of religious system, neither it is possible to manufacture. Just like you cannot manufacture law. Law is given by the state. Similarly, dharma means dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Dharma means the law given by God. That is dharma. You cannot manufacture. Who cares for your manufactured system? Just like nobody cares for if you make some law, that "I have made some law," and go to the court, "Sir, I have made this law. Please accept." "He's lunatic. Drive him away." That is not possible. This is dharma, as Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is dharma. Don't manufacture dharma. [break]
Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata [Bg. 4.7]. What is that glāni? Discrepancy. So glāni is disobedience to the order of God. That is glāni. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata. So the whole world is denying, śūnyavādi, nirviśeṣa-vādi, nirākāra-vādi: "No God. God is dead." So what kind of religious system they'll manufacture? They are simply misled. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Very tightly regulated by the laws of nature, and still, we are independently manufacturing religion. This is not possible. Give up this... Sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Actually this is dharma. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. It doesn't matter whether you are Hindu, Muslim, Christian or any other sect. The test is how much you are advanced in understanding God. That is the... If you do not understand God, if you have no obedience to God, that is not dharma.
So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very important movement. It is neither manufactured nor unauthorized. It is authorized, the oldest. Yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ. Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna that "I am repeating the same yoga, purātanam." Kṛṣṇa does not say that "I am manufacturing another system of yoga." No. "I am speaking to you the same yoga system."
proktavān aham avyayam
vivasvān manave prāha
manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt
So yogo naṣṭaḥ para. As soon as we deviate from the original system, it is naṣṭa, spoiled. So what is the use of giving things which is already spoiled? But it cannot be spoiled if you follow the paramparā system. This is the secret of success. So our only request is that India should not be misled by imitating the Western type of civilization, unnecessarily fighting on political and social... These political, social, there is problem, but that is temporary. Temporary... We must have our interest to the real life. Somebody yesterday was speaking of health. So what is health? If you are going to die, what is the value of your so-called health program? First of all you stop death; then the question of health. Kṛṣṇa said, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. First of all come to this position that even after the destruction of this body, you are not destroyed. That is health. That is health. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. That is health, not that patchwork = you have got some disease, take some pill and again become diseased. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. That is not health. Here is health.
But we have no brain to understand. That Kṛṣṇa said, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit---at any time. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Where is that medicine? Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. I am dying, my father is dying, my son is dying. But even if we accept, "Yes, we are accepting another body," but what do you know what kind of body you are going to accept? What is the position? There are 8,400,000 different forms of body. If you become an insignificant worm, then it will take millions of years by the evolution process to come again to this human form of body and come to..., there may be chance to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not very easy. If I miss this opportunity, I may miss millions of years. So this knowledge should be given. It is not expected that everyone will accept or understand. But this knowledge must be current. A class of men, the brāhmaṇa class, the Vaiṣṇava class... Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu [Bg. 7.3]---that is a fact. But still there must be somebody out of millions to understand this philosophy. And there is good opportunity now. We have published so many books on this subject matter, and we have got very nice place in Bombay, Juhu. Please come, read our books, try to understand the philosophy and make your life successful.
Thank you very much. Any question?
Girirāja: Are there any questions? Please come forward with your questions. You can ask them in the microphone at the front of the stage.
Indian man (1): When chanting, you chant the name of Rāma as well as Kṛṣṇa. I do not see any photograph of Rāma here. What is the thinking?
Prabhupāda: You do not see, but can you hear?
Indian man (1): I do not see!
Prabhupāda: But you do not hear!
Indian man (1): Photograph, that we are seeing.
Prabhupāda: Hearing is also experiencing. Why do you want to see? You do not see your father who is dead.
Indian man (1): No, why? Why? Kṛṣṇa has so many hundreds...
Prabhupāda: No. Seeing and hearing is the same thing. Suppose you have grandfather. Are you seeing him? How do you accept you had a grandfather?
Indian man (1): I saw him all right.
Prabhupāda: That is hearing.
Indian man (1): No, I saw him also.
Prabhupāda: You saw... You did not see your great-grandfather. But how do you know? Hearing is also another process.
Indian man (1): My question is whether there is distinction between Rāma and Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: The distinction is that hearing is also a process of acquiring knowledge. Why don't you accept it? Simply seeing is not acquiring knowledge. There are so many senses, and hearing is the first-class sense to understand which you cannot see. [applause]
Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda!
Girirāja: Next? Please come forward with your questions. Asking questions is a sign of intelligence. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Aiye.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [aside to Prabhupāda] I think you scared them away.
Indian man (2): How could I know the unknown with the known?
Prabhupāda: This is already explained. How could you know your great-grandfather? From the paramparā system. Your father says, "Yes, I had my grandfather." So from the authority of your father you can understand. This is easy process. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. You have to hear. Therefore Veda is called śruti. Śruti means you have to hear from the right source. Then you know. That is knowledge. You don't hear from a cheater. You hear from the right source. Then the knowledge is perfect.
Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Indian man (3): If a man is highly religious, it is very difficult for him to move in material world. What is the subject? How should he move, the people who are materialistically-minded?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you have to understand your spiritual identification. Because you are fools and rascals, you are thinking, "I am this body," and Kṛṣṇa gives instruction in the beginning that you are not this body. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]. Asmin dehe: you are within this body, not this body you are. So Kṛṣṇa is authority. You have to take it. Kṛṣṇa is not only simply speaking authoritatively, but He is giving practical example. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. Because the soul is within this body, it is changing. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. You have to become a dhīra, not adhīra. There are two classes of men = dhīra and adhīra. So in order to become a dhīra, you have to go... Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. You have to be trained up. Then you'll understand; not so quickly, without being dhīra. Dhīras tatra na muhyati.
Indian man (4): What is the difference between mind and soul?
Prabhupāda: Mind is material; soul is spiritual. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā = bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca, apareyaṁ bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā [Bg. 7.4]. They are also elements, but bhinnā means material, separated from Kṛṣṇa. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām: "These material elements, they are inferior quality, and beyond this, there is another, superior quality. That is soul." Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat [Bg. 7.5]. So you have to know from the books. That you'll no understand.
Indian man (5): Swāmījī, they read a lot that Bhāgavata says that our body is a temple for the soul, and the soul is a temple for the spirit. Would you kindly enlighten us on this point?
Prabhupāda: That is already explained, that you are soul within this body; the body superficially covered with the senses. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ manasas tu parā buddhiḥ buddhesta ya para[?] [Bg. 3.42]. You have to analyze that "First of all, I am prominent by my senses." My body means my senses. But the senses are useless unless there is mind. Indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ. If your mind is not in order, your senses cannot act. Therefore mind is superior than the senses. And the mind cannot act if you have no intelligence. So manasas tu parā buddhiḥ. And if you can go beyond the intelligence, then you can find out what is soul. So it requires study. It requires education. The education is there. The books are there. The teachers are there. Unfortunately you are not interested to take the spiritual education. You are now interested in technology, how to hammer, that's all.
Indian man (6): It is told that athāto brahma jijñāsā. Whether to attain that Brahman you should follow that Brahman which is qualityless and shapeless, that is nirguṇākāra or ṣoḍaśākāra[?]?
Prabhupāda: Brahman is always greater than anything. If you limit within some limited idea, that is not brahma-jñāna. Brahman is unlimited, the greatest. Bṛhatvān bṛhanatvat[?]. So Brahman includes everything---nirākāra, sākāra, and whatever you can speak. But Brahman ultimately is sākāra. It's not nirākāra. That is the verdict of the śāstra.
tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam
bhagavān iti śabdyate
This is brahma-jñāna. Brahman... Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma [Chāndogya Upaniṣad 3.14.1]. Everything Brahman, but there is division---brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. Just like the sun. The sunshine is impersonal, but the sun globe is localized and the sun-god is person, but the same sun. Similarly, you have to understand Brahman. When you cannot understand the real nature of Brahman, then it is nirākāra. And when you partially understand, Paramātmā, then localized. And you fully understand, that is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa.
Devotees: Jaya! [applause]
Indian man (6): It is said that first athāto brahma jijñāsā, and then it is said athāto brahma jijñāsā. It is said by one Yājñavalkya. Is there any difference between these two?
Prabhupāda: So brahma-jijñāsā means spiritual inquiry. So the cat and dog cannot inquire. It is not possible. But when you have got this human form of body, especially born in India and especially born in a brāhmaṇa family, if you misuse your life like cats and dogs, that is a great loss.
Indian man (7): Idol worship, impersonal, considered as a stepping stone. Is it fact?
Prabhupāda: I don't follow. What is that?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Is worshiping the idol a stepping stone?"
Indian man (7): Idol worship, mūrti-pūjā, is considered as a stepping stone only. When you attain something, then you need not do it.
Prabhupāda: So unless you step one by one, how you can go to the topmost? You have to.
Indian man (7): After attaining that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all you have to step on the first step, then second step, then... Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11].
Indian man (7): Thank you.
Prabhupāda: So everything requires training and knowledge.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all.
Devotees: Jaya. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kīrtana. [break]
Indian man (8): Can you please explain that it is our only way out for salvation?
Prabhupāda: Yes. People are so fallen that they cannot take the life of tapasya. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is the life of tapasya. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyet sattvam [SB 5.5.1]. So, tapasā brahmacaryeṇa yamena niyamena vā [SB 6.1.13]. So there is process of tapasya, but in this age, Kali-yuga, people are so fallen that they cannot undergo all the items of tapasya. It is very difficult. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu... Caitanya Mahāprabhu has not manufactured. It is mentioned in the śāstra that only by this process.
asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ
kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya
mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet
This is special concession to the Kali-yuga, that there are so many faults in this age, but if one sticks to this principle of kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet, he becomes liberated and go back to home, back to Godhead.
Indian man (8): And is it so, that in Śrīmad-Bhāgavata it is also written, many really great men want to be here in Kali-yuga, because it is easier to be for salvation? Only by...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That I am speaking. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya. Kṛṣṇasya kīrtanād eva mukta-saṅgaḥ param. Simply by chanting. Therefore we practically see that these Western people, they are not coming from high-class brāhmaṇa or Vaiṣṇava family, but still, by kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya they are becoming so liberated that they are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over the world.
Indian man (8): Another thing, my last question---I shall not disturb you. The name is power, and to utter name...
Prabhupāda: The name is the person. This is absolute. Absolute.
Indian man (8): Personified.
Prabhupāda: Not personified. He is person.
pūrṇaḥ śuddho nitya-mukto
[Cc. Madhya 17.133]
There is... Just like here in this material world, dual world, water and the name "water" is different. But in the spiritual world, Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's name is the same. Abhinnatvān nāma-nāminoḥ. So these things are to be realized one after another if you come to the process.
Thank you very much. [end]