Room Conversation about BTG , Māyāpur , 1977-02-18

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There was an underlying question of whether the magazine... Brahmānanda Mahārāja had mentioned that your original idea was that this magazine was meant for the devotees to write in to the magazine, and the spiritual master would read the articles and thus see how the devotees were making advancement, and the magazine was for the devotees to read each other's articles. Generally, now the one..., the kind of the present-day idea behind the magazine is that it is for the common man outside. It is not so much for the devotee as much as for the karmīs. And therefore...

Prabhupāda: No, what is the purpose? To distribute to the karmīs?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The purpose is to somehow connect the karmīs and give them a favorable opinion of our society, a general idea and favorable opinion of our movement. But the criticism on the part of some of the senior devotees now is that in doing this they have compromised our philosophy and our position.

Brahmānanda: Instead of quoting from some śāstra, they quote from a mundane book.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All the books. There's no more Sanskrit used.

Prabhupāda: So who has done this? You are asking me?

Brahmānanda: Rāmeśvara Swami's in charge.

Hari-śauri: Another example's like that they put a recipe for halavā in the magazine, two-page spread in color.

Prabhupāda: So the Rāmeśvara should not be in charge. The Satsvarūpa should be in charge.

Satsvarūpa: I'm very eager to take it over again.

Prabhupāda: Immediately do.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That was going to be our proposal. We went through the magazine, Satsvarūpa Mahārāja, Brahmānanda Mahārāja and myself, on the underlying points, and as Hari-śauri was pointing out, just like in the old days sometimes they would give a recipe and it would end with the showing of how to offer obeisances for offering the prasādam. But here that is completely neglected, that part. It simply says, "At the end of cooking, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and it will make the food taste better." There's no understanding that the food is then supposed to be offered to Kṛṣṇa, for Kṛṣṇa's pleasure. That whole idea is deleted. Everything is very much simplified, with the idea of making it sell more.

Prabhupāda: No, this should be properly done immediately. Who is the editor?

Brahmānanda: They have appointed Śrī Govinda.

Prabhupāda: Who is Śrī Govinda?

Tripurāri: He was the temple president in Chicago for several years. Now he is in Los Angeles with his family, and he's living there, the chief editor.

Prabhupāda: He has no experience of this...

Brahmānanda: We had always understood that the editor should be a senior man...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: ...who is spiritually strong. Śrī Govinda is not spiritually strong, and he is not a senior man.

Prabhupāda: So best thing will be Satsvarūpa now shall edit.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's some serious discrepancies. One thing is that after your name at the beginning they have written founder-director instead of founder-ācārya.

Prabhupāda: They are making mine?[?]

Satsvarūpa: Because the American public would not be able to accept that. Then later in the issue...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says, "His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, founder and director of the..."

Brahmānanda: No "Prabhupāda"?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founder and director of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement."

Prabhupāda: Of course, ācārya means director. That is another... But why they [indistinct]?

Satsvarūpa: One difficulty is later in the issue they referred to Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja as "founder and director." So it makes him... "Of New Vrindavan." So you're director and he's director, so you're equal. They're described as equals. But if you were ācārya, he could not be also called ācārya of New Vrindavan.

Prabhupāda: No, it should be continued, "ācārya."

Ādi-keśava: In one place they say that if you read your Perfection of Yoga, you will sleep better at night.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the advertisement for the Perfection of Yoga it says that one of the results will be, he says here, "At night you will fall asleep immediately." This is the benefit of reading Perfection of Yoga.

Prabhupāda: [laughing] But he admitted. [laughter]

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The general idea is just like this page, "Chant and Be Happy." But there is practically no devotees shown. It's showing... The whole idea is that if you show devotees, no one will be able to identify with the devotee. So they're showing persons in material life, and each one of them is giving his opinion of why he chants. "Chanting makes me calmer," "Chanting makes me more perceptive," "Chanting makes me more open-minded." So these are all... [break] ...the ultimate goal of chanting is to instill love of God. But that thing is never mentioned. [break]

Brahmānanda: Then he would approve. That was the test.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This article has changed very much from that original Back to Godhead article. This article here is issue number, I think, 14, many years ago, about the anchor in the water. It was very Kṛṣṇa conscious. Now it has been made...

Hari-śauri: No one's going to derive any Kṛṣṇa conscious meaning from that article. It's two whole pages, with picture and a little bit of writing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's practically no Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Bhavānanda: In the whole magazine, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we feel that there's very little Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No Lord Caitanya's picture. Lord Caitanya and Kṛṣṇa's picture never appear in the whole magazine. They've taken it out.

Hari-śauri: Lord Caitany was practically not menioned...

Brahmānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is your magazine.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No picture.

Ādi-keśava: And even the pictures of the devotees, they're not recognizable as devotees.

Hari-śauri: They put a picture of the devotees this big at the bottom of the page.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Just like you asked that there be a picture of the temple... [break] ...you can't even recognize it... [break]

Prabhupāda: Curb down this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This and other movements, but gradually it will be just this movement.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's meant to curb down many movements, but gradually it will be simply against this movement, because these other movements are finishing quickly.

Hari-śauri: Their first target was that Moonie, Moons. Their first target was that Korean Unification Church, the Moonies. Now we're the big target.

Prabhupāda: Moon is finished? No.

Hari-śauri: Practically.

Prabhupāda: What about Transcendental Meditation?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are very, very clever. But even now they're coming under great criticism. They're starting to become criticized also. But they are much... He has so much watered down the whole thing that it doesn't disturb hardly anybody. It's no... It's like ten minutes a day. "Keep your job. Keep your position in life. Do everything you're doing. Just ten minutes a day go to sleep. Say some mantra and sleep." So no one is very much upset by it. It doesn't demand anything, doesn't demand very much at all---like taking a pill.

Prabhupāda: He's very clever.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. A good businessman. They outright... This they outrightly say, "This is not religion. No question of religion, nothing about God." They advertise like that = "It is not religion."

Prabhupāda: That is true.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Army has taken it up now.

Prabhupāda: He has not any new [indistinct].

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He had one, but I heard that they had some difficulty in completing it. [indistinct] [break]

Prabhupāda: ...the leaders agree, organize it. Then others take it. We can begin there this varṇāśrama program.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Are you planning to go there, to Manipur?

Prabhupāda: I shall expect to go. It requires...

Hari-śauri: Svarūpa Dāmodara.

Prabhupāda: No, on our part.

Hari-śauri: That's not... The traveling there is not the strain. It's doing the programs and seeing so many people. That's a big strain.

Prabhupāda: That is not... Strain is traveling.

Hari-śauri: But that traveling means when you're there you have to travel to this program, travel to see that man, travel...

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Hari-śauri: It always...

Prabhupāda: I like to sit down in one place. I am not going to...

Hari-śauri: But still, for the programs they always... Every time we go somewhere they want you to come to this temple and then they want you to do this program here and there.

Prabhupāda: No, that I...

Hari-śauri: And they know you're always too merciful to not do it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there a time which is being contemplated for going, a particular time?

Hari-śauri: [indistinct] We have to get visas.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's very difficult. It's guarded.

Hari-śauri: Protected area.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I want to make it [indistinct].

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Should Brahmānanda and I try to get some visas also?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. [indistinct background discussion about who will go] So Dhṛṣṭadyumna Mahārāja, he is also coming?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not coming. We have to leave at least one of the sannyāsīs there to watch everything. Especially now, if Sudāmā Mahārāja comes with the theater, then... I just told... I spoke to Sudāmā on the phone just now. So I told him that "The condition on which you can come is that Dhṛṣṭadyumna has to agree to stay in New York for the two weeks, because it's too much responsibility to be left alone without anybody in charge."

Prabhupāda: Our temple is always crowded.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In New York? Oh, all the time. Especially on weekends it's very crowded. Because of the restaurant and all the different programs that are going on there, there's always people coming in. We have many different activities.

Prabhupāda: The neighborhood men, they don't like it?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some of them like it. There's no objection from the neighbors. It's such a big building, the biggest building on the whole block.

Hari-śauri: There's so many things happening in New York.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. In New York you don't get any kind of... It's called a "melting pot." No one minds. Hare Kṛṣṇa is accepted there. First place that you...

Prabhupāda: I remember. We have started from New York.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Dhṛṣṭadyumna Mahārāja is taking up also working with the Indian communities around the country. He's finding great receptivity. In many of the cities the Indian community is willing to purchase buildings. Dhṛṣṭadyumna is going to cities where we don't have temples yet. But there's still big cities, and the Indian communities there are very eager.

Prabhupāda: Eager?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, very eager, yes. [break] ...Cincinnati, immediately this man he met, he immediately he got five hundred of them enrolled as members, Life Members.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This one gentleman in Cincinnati. And there are many prominent Indians around the country.

Prabhupāda: Well-to-do also. They are well-to-do.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many of them, yes. They're all professionals. So he's finding that there's good receptivity amongst the Indians and the students he's working with. And he's working, developing this farm. He's making his headquarters the farm in Pennsylvania, and then he goes out and goes to all these centers that he's established, and then every week he comes for a few days to the farm and works with Paramānanda. They formed a committee of management to do everything jointly. Paramānanda's the president, and others are there, and Dhṛṣṭadyumna's a sannyāsī, so he goes there and gives lectures. It's New Varṣāṇā, so they have an idea to develop it just like Varṣāṇā. There's a mountain there, so they want to build a temple on the mountain.

Prabhupāda: Where is New Varṣāṇā?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's Port Royal, Pennsylvania. The name is New Varṣāṇā.

Prabhupāda: Oh. That's nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So I think we will build a replica of the Varṣāṇā here in India.

Prabhupāda: Indians not there?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they're starting, because the building that we're putting up is a guesthouse. It is very nice facility for Indians to stay there. And during the summer, especially, what they're thinking to do is for two weeks they'll have a program for the Indians to send their children there for school and activities. And the two weeks will end on Janmāṣṭamī. So all the parents of the Indian children can come and spend the weekend at the farm at this guesthouse. Gradually it can develop. Very big population of Indians in New Jersey and Pennsylvania and New York, and they're all within easy reach of this farm, three hours, two hours by car.

Prabhupāda: They have no temple, the Indians?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, they are looking to our society to provide them some spiritual place of worship. They're actually looking to us as priests.

Prabhupāda: American brāhmaṇas. Go-brāhmaṇa. American milk, American brāhmaṇa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dhṛṣṭadyumna Mahārāja has organized the Life Membership program to send the Indian members milk sweets in the mail every week from the farm. Burfi, sandeśa.

Prabhupāda: They also like. And in America, the Indians are there, they are all educated. They're not low-class men.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They read your books carefully.

Prabhupāda: This... There are some statements. Just like molten iron, a man can break for illicit sex. What is their objection?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, they think it's superstition. They think it is simply some stories.

Hari-śauri: Some fantastic myth.

Prabhupāda: Story means it is story for you. Do you know the details of the whole universe, where, what is what? Can you do? You go and say there is no moonshine, but this rascal conclusion will be taken. Why there should be shine? From the sand such brilliant moonshine is coming? We have to believe that? So many books have said [indistinct] brilliant. Sun is brilliant. This... So you rascal, you can believe in that, but we'll not believe. You can say like that. What do you know about moon? It is all rascaldom. It may be good for rascals like you, not for intelligent man like me.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That statement is always published immediately in newspapers. They love to publish that statement, that we say they've not gone to the moon. Immediately...

Prabhupāda: Question is how it is.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should push on these points.

Prabhupāda: Such a brilliant thing, soothing, and we'll take as...? We'll never take. Tell them. We see such a nice place. If you have gone there, why you have come back?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say there's nothing there but craters and barren land, like a desert, Mojave Desert.

Prabhupāda: Desert... Wherefrom the desert comes?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Desert means no life, that's all

Prabhupāda: We see in the desert there is life.

Hari-śauri: But the moon's got no atmosphere, so...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...it can't support life.

Prabhupāda: Why not? If you have got desert, if you have got some sand, why not?

Hari-śauri: No, they say it's just old dried-up desert because there's no atmosphere for vegetation to grow in. It just gets dried up by the sun's rays.

Prabhupāda: How it became dried up? Formerly it was.

Hari-śauri: Well, it was just gas.

Prabhupāda: Eh? It is gas. Then you have not gone.

Hari-śauri: No. It was gas. Now it's solidified. Millions of years.

Prabhupāda: What nonsense. [laughter]

Hari-śauri: Then the bang came and all the little chunks flew off...

Prabhupāda: Everything came; only life did not. [laughter]

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: On earth it came, though.

Prabhupāda: This, they are sure.[?] [laughter]

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Another thing they don't like is this word "demon." Oh, they don't like that at all. They say you call everyone demons.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you are demons, because you are talking demon, thinking demon.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't like that at all.

Prabhupāda: Because it is in the Bhagavad-gītā. Asatyam...

Hari-śauri: Sixteenth Chapter?

Satsvarūpa: Even that Professor O'Connell, he said in his so-called favorable report, "I think you should [indistinct] have a revolution, but don't use that word demon."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't like that word because it makes them think of themselves.

Prabhupāda: No. We say democracy is "demoncracy."

Hari-śauri: The title of the chapter is "The Divine and Demoniac Natures."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They would have you change that.

Prabhupāda: No. It is... Āsurī-bhāvam āśritāḥ.

Hari-śauri: Āsuram.

Prabhupāda: The word is āsurī. How can I change? It is said. What is the meaning of āsurī?

Hari-śauri: Well, it says, text four, it says,

dambho darpo 'bhimānaś ca
krodhaḥ pāruṣyam eva ca
ajñānaṁ cābhijātasya
pārtha sampadam āsurīm

"Arrogance, pride, anger, conceit, harshness and ignorance---these qualities belong to those of the demoniac nature..."

Prabhupāda: They are these...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Perfect description.

Prabhupāda: Do it carefully, cautiously. They are feeling the weight.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm. I can see this Ādi-keśa's a good person to push it.

Prabhupāda: No, you also help. He's also very young.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's only twenty-two. He's been consulting with me whenever we...

Prabhupāda: He is nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He comes from a good family. His father, grandfather's side, is Barclay, from Barclay's bank. He's the grandson, grandnephew of Barclay. Big family. Parents are very well known.

Prabhupāda: Rich family.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Rich. Wealthier than Dhṛṣṭadyumna's parents.

Prabhupāda: He's also good gentleman.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You met...

Prabhupāda: Hmm. He came to see me.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ādi-keśa's mother is very big in the field of education. Public speaker, and intelligent. His father owns a number of industries.

Prabhupāda: You can bring case against them. Just like fight in same position, that brainwashing. Not brainwashing. Whatever they have said.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bring a case against them?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Back to back.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Oh, yes. We're planning to do that. After this case is finally won, then we'll turn around and sue them for damages.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "You have blasphemed our Society and our president all over the papers." Oh, our movement has suffered. We can claim damages for sure. Oh, so... Just like a perfect example, we had a man working for us in charge of our boiler room. So as soon as this case came out, he quit the job. He had been working in the building for thirty-four years. He quit the job because he did not want to be associated with our Society due to the bad publicity. So in this way so many people, we can argue, have stopped coming to our temple. So many things we have suffered. Lawsuit.

Prabhupāda: Defamation.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. This is the traditional system. After you win the case, then you turn around and sue them. We may not get, because we're suing the city. Anyway, then we can get more opportunity for furthering our propaganda if we file another suit. Tomorrow will you go on a walk, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: I can go.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Will you be walking on the roof or down below? Which do you prefer?

Prabhupāda: I can go down very well.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You like it down.

Prabhupāda: On the pond side

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Would you like us to bring that chair over to the pond to carry you up to the pond?

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You don't mind those steps going up?

Prabhupāda: No. [pause] They say they have gone from the paper. We say from the paper they have not gone. Then where is the difference?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say we...?

Prabhupāda: We have got our paper; they have got their paper. They say they have gone. Nobody has gone with them. I have not gone. They have not gone. They say from the paper.

Hari-śauri: Well, they'll produce so many astronauts.

Prabhupāda: Third-class, third-class newspaper, and we have got the knowledge.

Hari-śauri: They'll produce so many astronauts who'll say, "Yes, I was there on the moon. I went."

Prabhupāda: So that is foolish action of that...? Some witness, drunkard witness for the liquor men. [laughter] This is their own philosophy. Anyway, they'll produce some, what is called, aereonauts. But still I have not gone. You are still hearing from a third person.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hearsay.

Prabhupāda: Hearsay. You cannot say that he has gone, because you have not seen. The argument is to see. You have not seen.

Hari-śauri: Neither have you seen Brahmaloka.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that we hearsay, and you also hearsay. Then where is the difference? I hearsay from Bhāgavata; you hearsay from astronaut. The position is, your position and my..., the same. If you don't believe me, why shall I believe you? You are not in better position. It has been proved that many cheater scientists and many doctors, cheaters. Why shall I believe you?

Hari-śauri: But there are thousands of men working on the space program.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hari-śauri: There are thousands of men working on the space program.

Prabhupāda: So thousands of men reading our Bhāgavata. No. More.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If numbers is proof, we have more.

Prabhupāda: This is no argument.

Hari-śauri: But they'll argue that "We're building the rocket ships, and we're sending... We watch them go off..."

Prabhupāda: What you have done? You could not go and live there. You say the atmosphere is different. We deny this. Atmosphere cannot be different. It is within this material world. We can see. Why atmosphere should be different? If the atmosphere is different, how you can see a solid, very bright thing? I can see. Why there is a bright thing? Why it should be different?

Hari-śauri: Well, it's just got no atmosphere, that's all.

Prabhupāda: That is your statement. I don't believe you. I don't accept your statement. I use my common sense. Why the atmosphere? I can see the bright thing, light. If I see this light, I can see that light. Why they should differ?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They'll say that just like when you go up on top of the mountain, the oxygen is rarified, the atmosphere is more rarified.

Prabhupāda: That may be. But that does not mean on the top of the hill there is no life.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, there's still life.

Prabhupāda: The atmosphere may be different, but that does not mean there is no life. Just the water---the atmosphere different from me, for me. That does not mean there is no life. You cannot live within the water for a minute, but the aquatics are living and enjoying, the aquatics---big, big life.

Hari-śauri: But we don't see any case of life within fire.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? That is your experience. Śāstra says there is life, agni-paḥ.

Hari-śauri: But if we go on just practical experience, like you were saying...

Prabhupāda: What is your, your practical ex...? You are rascal. You have no practical experience. If there is life in the water, if there is life in the air, if there is life within the earth, why not in the fire? It is also one of the elements. Why you discard only fire? There are five elements = earth, water, air, fire, ether. So if there is life in the earth, in the water, in the air, in the ether, what fire has done there should be no life?

Hari-śauri: But we see. The water's here. The earth's here. We see the life in there. We agree.

Prabhupāda: Your seeing is imperfect.

Hari-śauri: But the fire is here, and there's no life in the fire.

Prabhupāda: No. You cannot see. That is your imperfect... You should conclude from the general experience that "Here there is life; there must be... We cannot..." But what do you see? Just like they have taken photograph. What is that photograph? Suppose if you take the photograph of the ocean, can you see any life? The life is within. What is the use of your photograph? Your everything is imperfect. You cannot say anything final. And you are imperfect, your senses are imperfect; whatever knowledge you have got, that is imperfect. If Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham [Bg. 4.1], then Kṛṣṇa is there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, "sun-god" means he lives in the sun.

Prabhupāda: Vivasvān manave prāha. And Manu, his son, his family and...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: House.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is there. You are scientist. You are very expert, more than Kṛṣṇa. Therefore you believe like that.

Hari-śauri: Then if we accept your reasoning, then show us practically where there is life in fire.

Prabhupāda: You cannot see, rascal, because you are rascal. Therefore you cannot see. You have to hear. That is also... Because you are rascal, you cannot see. You simply... Just like you have not seen your father. Rascal, who can see? Who is that rascal who can see his father? You have to hear from the mother. You rascal, you cannot see your father. Why you are claiming that "I want to see my real father." That is not possible. You have to simply hear from the mother. That is only source. Similarly, you are rascal, everything is imperfect, so you have to hear from the authority. That is only source.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śāstra-cakṣus.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no argument.

Hari-śauri: But you used the argument on me that practically we see there's life everywhere---in the water, in the air, in the...

Prabhupāda: So why not in the fire?

Hari-śauri: So why not show me where it is?

Prabhupāda: Again the same argument. I say you are rascal; you cannot see. That is not possible.

Hari-śauri: But if I can see it in the water and I can see it in the air...

Prabhupāda: No.

Hari-śauri: ...and I can see it in the earth...

Prabhupāda: You cannot see in the water. You cannot see in the air.

Hari-śauri: We go down in submarines and we see the...

Prabhupāda: So go down in the fire. You'll see. Why you cannot go to the fire?

Hari-śauri: We light a fire. We don't see any life.

Prabhupāda: But you go and it will... Go in the fire. This is the defect, that he is imperfect in every way, and he claims to be God. That is the defect. The same way = I want to see who is my actual father. How you can see? You have to accept from the mother. That's all. Veda. Veda is mother. Accept mother and Vedic information. Otherwise there is no possibility. Kṛṣṇa says. Then you don't believe Kṛṣṇa. Why you have taken to this? So many things are there. You should take it. Just like the soul. Kṛṣṇa says, dehino 'smin: "There is." You take it. You cannot say Kṛṣṇa, "Show me." Then finished, your knowledge. Kṛṣṇa has given the reason. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam... [Bg. 2.13]. You can see in that way, that because the soul is there the body is changing. As soon as soul is not there, stop. It is no more. That you have to... Nothing more. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. If you are dhīra, then there is no difficulty. But you are the rascal. This is the defect. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Yes, we can practically experience also = When there is driver the motorcar is moving. No driver---no movement. Where is the difficulty? But because you are rascal you do not know how to take things practically. What is the difference between a motorcar and this machine? It is also machine. Bhagavad-gītā says it is a machine. So machine without a conductor, without the... A machine may be very useful, computer, but if there is no worker, what is the use of this machine? Simply alone machine can work? It may be very wonderful machine.

Hari-śauri: Even the world's best computer has to have a programmer behind it.

Prabhupāda: So the computer worker or this Dictaphone, everything is living being.

Hari-śauri: Must be living.

Prabhupāda: Yes, there must be touch of a living being. Therefore the whole cosmic manifestation---there is touch of Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate [Bg. 9.10]. Dead matter cannot work. We are beginning our knowledge from this. First of all try to understand what is that living force, apareyam. This dead matter, kiñcid, itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām [Bg. 7.5]. There is another nature. What is that? Jīva-bhūtam, living... That is superior.

Hari-śauri: Which is sustaining the universe.

Prabhupāda: You can practically experience. A machine may be very complicated, but without the man who will push the button there is no value. It has no value; a lump only.

Hari-śauri: Nor could it have been made without the intelligence anyway.

Prabhupāda: Here is a lump of matter, some metal. It has been done by a living being; it is worked by living being; then it is working. Now what is the value? Not even two paisa.

Hari-śauri: When they do their experiments in the laboratories they have to mix the chemicals themselves.

Prabhupāda: Everything is done by a living being. There must be touch by the living. Yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat [Bg. 7.5]. He is... Understand this. He is manipulating this inferior material. It has not come automatically. There's brain. Brain means intelligence, human being. Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate ja... Find out this verse.


apareyam itas tv anyāṁ
prakṛtiṁ viddhi me parām
jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho
yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat

"Besides this inferior nature, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is a superior energy of Mine, which are all living entities who are struggling with material nature and are sustaining the universe."

Prabhupāda: That's it. Who can deny it? Therefore they have no brain to understand.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The whole world is in ignorance. Except for this knowledge which you are giving, everything is in darkness.

Prabhupāda: Darkness, that's all. All rascals, bokā.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You're the single person in this whole world I see, Prabhupāda...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...who's giving this knowledge.

Prabhupāda: That is the fact.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It may be that a few others know about it in India, but they never went outside to give it to anybody. Even in India they don't give it to anybody.

Prabhupāda: They do not know.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't know, that's a fact. If they knew, they would speak it.

Prabhupāda: Therefore that professor has said, "God has sent Swami A. C. Bhaktivedanta." I never say "Yes, yes." Never.

Hari-śauri: You're the most uncompromising person. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: You know that?

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And that. [gestures]

Hari-śauri: Scissor philosophy.

Prabhupāda: If you drown me in the water, still I'll say.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone else has a point of selling out, but you have never done that. [pause] This Satsvarūpa is an expert typist.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Satsvarūpa and Hayagrīva. [end]