Evening Darśana , Māyāpur , 1977-02-15

Prabhupāda: So regarding the temple, we shall wait for the land acquisition decision or we shall begin without it? You have seen how the road is going to the site of temple?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were planning... Brahmānanda and I just made plans for tomorrow morning to see certain lands that have newly been purchased, and we wanted to see everything tomorrow morning.

Prabhupāda: So I shall also go.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? Good. Jaya.

Prabhupāda: So we have to decide whether we shall wait or we shall begin in our own way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, one point in favor of beginning is that Caitanya Mahāprabhu's five hundredth anniversary is approaching. Should...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhavānanda: That will be...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think, nine years now.

Bhavānanda: Eight years. Eight or nine years from now will be five hundred.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That will be very nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It must be completed by then, if not before.

Prabhupāda: So now you make arrangement. The prasāda arrangement is very good. Yes, they are following. Give me one plate tomorrow.

Bhavānanda: What time?

Prabhupāda: What time you are ready?

Bhavānanda: We are always ready, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Bhavānanda: Any time of the day or night you can have full prasāda.

Prabhupāda: No. Fresh prepared.

Bhavānanda: Fresh.

Prabhupāda: Oh. What time will be suitable?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Probably at noon they're ready, because they cook dāl.

Bhavānanda: Noontime?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Twelve-thirty, one.

Prabhupāda: That's nice, one o'clock.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One o'clock.

Prabhupāda: Make arrangement for prasāda distribution, any center. For that, we have to work hard, we have to collect, we have to beg, borrow, steal---everything. Prasāda distribution. And kīrtana. Here your distribution propa... Having kīrtana or not?

Bhavānanda: I'm sorry, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Brahmānanda: When you distribute prasāda, do you have kīrtana also?

Bhavānanda: Yes, up and down the aisle. When we're distributing the big prasāda, then we have a kīrtana party.

Prabhupāda: They must hear kīrtana.

Bhavānanda: Always.

Prabhupāda: That must be done.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In New York, because we have the restaurant there, we always have prasādam ready and available for guests throughout the day and evening, full prasādam, because the restaurant facility is there.

Prabhupāda: Very good facility.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And very respectable gentlemen are coming. You saw, Brahmānanda.

Prabhupāda: Who will not accept such nice prasāda? They cannot get in ordinary restaurant such nice prasāda.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And we give them as much as they can eat. There is no limitation on quantity.

Prabhupāda: They are very glad.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some of them come for thirds and fourths, regular customers.

Brahmānanda: Then they have a cart that goes on the street and keeps it hot.

Prabhupāda: Distribution.

Brahmānanda: Yes. I went to see it. Regularly people are coming. Even the taxi drivers.

Prabhupāda: Here also they are selling. They are paying sufficiently, khicuṛi and other, and they prepare very nice. This should be continued, prasāda distribution.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say "Prasādam is our secret weapon."

Prabhupāda: [laughs] Yes. Yes. They say?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Many people are understanding now how we are defeating the enemy with prasāda. People become addicted.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some devotees, I've noticed... Sometimes some weak devotees, they leave our movement, but still, in New York, even after leaving, they have to come every evening for their regular meals in the restaurant, because they are addicted to the prasādam. They cannot do without it.

Prabhupāda: What do we supply in the restaurant?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Restaurant supplies two or three sabjīs...

Prabhupāda: Two, three.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At least. Then purīs, cāpāṭi, then samosā or pakorā, kacaurī...

Prabhupāda: Oh. [laughs] Sweet rice also?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sweet rice every day. Sweet rice, halavā.

Prabhupāda: Oh. It is all royal dishes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And then also dāl and a soup, vegetable soup. Some people like cream of vegetable soup. And salad, fresh salads, and drinks---orange juice, different kinds of juices.

Brahmānanda: Some cookies.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cookies, cakes, breads.

Prabhupāda: All first class. You have got so many items here? [laughs]

Bhavānanda: [laughs] No, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But here it's prepared better. Here the cooking is more expert. They are not as... We are thinking that one of the cooks from New York... I'm going to suggest to Kartikeya Mahadevia... Or now actually I think I'll just have her come here, you know. But I wanted one of the cooks from New York to come to India for one or two months to learn how to cook properly, so that... Because one...

Prabhupāda: They can come here.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Here will be best.

Prabhupāda: Here there are so many nice...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because one thing we don't get many people is the Indian people to eat in the restaurant, because they are accustomed to more spices.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And unless one is expert at the..., you know, he will not cook properly spices.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we are thinking to bring one of the cooks here to learn for a couple of months.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because the Indians will come like anything to the restaurant if it is nicely prepared foodstuffs.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They want delicious spicy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Spicy, yes. The Western palate is bland food. They don't like too much spice.

Prabhupāda: No. They simply take boiled, little black pepper and salt. That's all. [laughter] And that is also stale meat. That is Western. And then they drink coffee and tea.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And liquor.

Brahmānanda: And cigarette.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And cigarette for digestion.

Prabhupāda: And their loaf, that is three hundred years old, [laughter] with little butter like...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, they are eating just like prisoners.

Prabhupāda: So from restaurant you have got good income there?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Approximately, let's see, I would say, between $7,500 and $10,000 a month. That is not all profit, but that is the gross income. Profit? At least more than half profit. And much milk products are used. We supply the temple and the restaurant from the farm four hundred gallons of milk per week.

Prabhupāda: You get from the farm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Every week we give to New York temple four hundred gallons milk.

Prabhupāda: And you turn into chānā?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Chānā and also milk, straight as milk. The devotees get sufficient milk, and also cheese, yeah, for cooking.

Prabhupāda: Sandeśa, rasagullā.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. All of the sweets are made very... New York... In America, New York is known for its good milk sweets. Brahmānanda was...

Brahmānanda: Sandeśa.

Prabhupāda: New Vrindavan also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: New Vrindavan also. Sandeśa, rasagullā, gulabjamon, burfi...

Prabhupāda: And ghee?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, because...

Prabhupāda: Ghee you take from New Vrindavan?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. They don't have sufficient to give. The trouble with ghee... It is not a trouble, but one thing is this, that when you make ghee it only uses four or five percent of the milk. Then the balance of the milk becomes skimmed milk. So what we want to do is... There's a machine that can be purchased for making the skimmed milk into powdered milk. With that powdered milk, we can send it to India. Otherwise there's so much waste of the leftover, skimmed milk

Prabhupāda: You can send the powdered milk?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: There's good demand for powdered milk?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: As soon as there is sufficient production of milk, they're going to get this machine.

Brahmānanda: But it will be powdered skimmed milk.

Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. It will be sold here.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because you can use it in greater quantity, then it becomes thick again. Of course, it doesn't make it rich with butterfat.

Prabhupāda: India, practically everywhere is powdered milk. They are purchasing by barrels.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This will be a good exchange for books, perhaps.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, I brought you a very nice report which I think you may like to keep and show to visitors. It's notarized, all about the production at that farm. So if anyone wants to see what...

Prabhupāda: Pennsylvania.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And it's a notarized report, giving everything, the value of the farm as well as the production for one year. So I can give it to Satsvarūpa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that? Read. Light is not sufficient.

Hari-śauri: Get that torch in the back.

Prabhupāda: Torch?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I originally composed this for Mahāṁśa Swami, but I thought I would bring a copy for your..., you know, so when guests come. Should I read it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "ISKCON farm report = Port Royal, Pennsylvania, report for year 1976. ISKCON Incorporated of New York owns a prime farm in Juanita County of Pennsylvania. The land is nearly four hundred acres in size, valued at around $500 per acre, or $200,000. In addition the buildings on the property consist of the following = barn worth $40,000; outbuildings worth $10,000; calf barn, $25,000; equipment, $50,000; residential building, $45,000; guesthouse and public kitchen and prasādam pavilion, $75,000; and silos, 20,000. Total, including land, $465,000. The purpose of this farm is to produce foodstuffs to meet all the needs of the farm community as well as the needs of our temples in New York, Philadelphia, Washington, D.C., and Baltimore. Another purpose is to demonstrate the principle of cow protection, as we are strict vegetarians and do not believe in slaughtering cows. Our herd of cows is Brown Swiss, and they are rated amongst the top one percent of dairy cow herds in the United States. All of the cows are pedigree. Our farm holds 50 milk cows and 50 young cows, heifers. The milk cows milk an average of 40 kilos of milk per day in their first month of lactation and average 25 kilos per day over the whole year. We have 140 acres of crop land and 30 acres of pasture, the balance being woods, primarily hardwood, which is excellent for fuel. On our land we grow not only all the food for the residents but also for the cows. The following is the yield for 1976 = corn---200 tons, soybeans---10 tons, barley---10 tons, oats---10 tons..."

Prabhupāda: What do you do with the soybeans?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The soybeans are ground and given to the cows.

Brahmānanda: In the winter.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the wintertime. This way the cows...

Prabhupāda: They're very nutritious.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very nutritious. The cows give more milk according to how much nutritious foods you give them.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So much of this, what we produce, is given for the cows, because the cows cannot graze year round. Because for about four or five months there's too cold weather. Four months. So they have to have stock of stuff, of food. "Oats---10 tons, wheat---10 tons." The wheat is... You tasted the cāpāṭi.

Brahmānanda: Excellent.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very tasty.

Brahmānanda: Nearby there's a mill, and they grind the wheat fresh.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Brahmānanda: Near to our farm is a mill where they grind the wheat fresh.

Prabhupāda: Our mill?

Brahmānanda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are going to get one now. It is not difficult to have a mill. "Hay---45 tons."

Prabhupāda: In India the practice was hand-grind daily. The women will do that. That's exercise for them, and they keep their body fit and beautiful.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oxen can also grind, I think. Can oxen also?

Prabhupāda: No, there is no need oxen. Individually, small grinding---chakki[?]. And in the morning they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and grind. [sings] Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare... This is very nice process. Whatever they require for the day, they grind fresh. Very nice system. And actually, by this exercise, they keep their body beautiful.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Keeps them well engaged.

Prabhupāda: And engagement. Yaśodāmāyi was doing that, even she is the queen of Nanda Mahārāja, what to speak of other women. Churning milk, grinding the wheat, this is their household. We have got that picture. Full engagement. Otherwise gossiping...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Trouble.

Prabhupāda: Trouble. And whisping for love. That's all. [laughs] "Whisping" or "whispering"?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whispering.

Prabhupāda: [chuckling] "Idle brain, devil's workshop." Then?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "In the year 1976 we cultivated 5 acres of vegetables, including 24 tons of potatoes. We also have 25 beehives, which produce 100 pounds of honey per hive. There is also a fruit orchard with a 150 trees, including apples, pears, peaches and plum trees. Lastly, we are fortunate..."

Prabhupāda: Those fruits are nice fruits.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Lastly we are fortunate to have two natural pure water mountain springs running continuously all year. The water is being bottled and then distributed." And we take that water to New York.

Prabhupāda: Very digestive.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. And water sells now for a dollar a gallon now in New York. A good market.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "So we at ISKCON farm look forward to an even more bountiful harvest in the year 1977. This is subscribed and sworn before me by a notary public." So it is official report.

Prabhupāda: Very good report. It is worth seeing, worth considering our... If we develop our farms in India on this basis, it will be very nice. We have got greater land. You have got 450 acres; we have got 600. No?

Bhavānanda: Yes, 600.

Prabhupāda: Now it requires development.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mahāṁśa was calling for this because he said that by showing this... He wants to get a big grant of money.

Prabhupāda: They simply want money. That's all. Money will only be supplied. Let them show some work.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Paramānanda may be able to come to help there.

Prabhupāda: Yes, to give them direction. It will be very nice. If Paramānanda comes, we can invest money without any hesitation. And he has got experience.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I'll certainly... When Ādi-keśa comes here, I'll be talking to him about this point. He may be able to come in the winter time.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, we can develop farm here also. Farm development is Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma. Kṛṣṇa is tending cows, and Balarāma is plowing. Therefore the plow and flute---flute for tending cows and plow for agriculture---Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. In Africa also you have got good opportunity for these farm projects.

Brahmānanda: Yes. Actually one of our members in Mombassa, he wanted to buy us a farm. Unfortunately, Cyavana rejected it. Anyway, he went and bought the farm for eighty thousand, and now he's developed it, and it's a wonderful farm. We went there for a program. It's very productive. He has one manager, an Indian manager, and the Africans do all the work. He has cows and mangoes, growing vegetables. He's very thankful to us, because we helped...

Prabhupāda: Gave the idea.

Brahmānanda: Yes. But he's our good friend and supporter. He will help us in Mombassa very much.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Farm project is very nice. Kṛṣṇa gives. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. This is economic problem solved. And brāhmaṇa, brain problem solved; and kṣatriya, protection problem solved; and śūdra, labor problem solved. Four things combined together, live peacefully, happily, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Introduce this farm project. In America there is enough scope. So much land is lying vacant. And if there are jungles, cut the jungles; use the wood. Just like our Virginia, big, big jungles. You cut the woods, you get ground, open field, and utilize the logs for house-making. Food, shelter---everything there. In Africa, everywhere, the nature's way. Pūrṇam idam [Īśopaniṣad, Invocation]. Everything, complete arrangement by Kṛṣṇa. We have to little work. Śarīra-yātrāpi ca te na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ [Bg. 3.8]. If you sit idly, then you'll starve. Otherwise everything is there. You work little and get your all necessities. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān [Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13]. That one person, God, He's supplying everyone, whatever necessities. You have to simply work little. That is material world. In the material world you have to work. And in the spiritual world there is no question of work. Whatever you require, you desire, everything is there. Cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛkṣa [Bs. 5.29]. You get everything as soon as you desire it. You haven't got to work. That is spiritual world. In material world, to get your necessities you have to work. You get this flower, little working. You grow the seeds, put little water, and it will be... And in spiritual world, as soon as you desire, "I want this flower," it is ready. There also māyā is working. Māyā means energy, Kṛṣṇa's energy. Here also energy is working. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg. 7.10]. Kṛṣṇa is preparing the seed. You have to work little. You cannot prepare the seed. That is in Kṛṣṇa's hand. You cannot prepare the seed in your so-called rascals' laboratory. That is not... Is it possible? Hmm? So why they are so much proud with their scientific knowledge? Our Svarūpa Dāmodara is convinced this so-called scientific knowledge is bogus.

Brahmānanda: He is in Bombay now. We saw him. Girirāja wants to arrange some lectures for him at the schools and colleges.

Prabhupāda: You shall combine a few Ph.D., D.H.C. to challenge these so-called scientists all over the world. Amongst the scientists, if you speak of God, they will deride. He'll reject you. Is it not?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To some extent, yes. But...

Prabhupāda: No. It is prohibited to speak of God among the scientists.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But in India, if he speaks in India to the scientists, they will receive it much more readily.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. In Western countries they have no brain.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Cow dung.

Prabhupāda: Cow dung. Cow dung, no. Man's dung. [laughter] Cow dung is pure. In our youthful ages we used to say, dadang dang.[?] Our one professor, Mr. Cameron, English professor, he was Scotsman. In our I.A. class or B.A. class he was. So that time Patel's Bill, intercaste marriage... We were young man. We were supporting. So before the professor's coming, in the blackboard we wrote, "Dadang dang Patel's Bill dang,"[?] and like that, in Bengali. So Professor Cameron came. He saw, "The boys, they have written something." So he simply read it, remained silent. Then he began his teaching. Then when the hour is over, he erased the blackboard, and he wrote. He wrote in this way = jakhan tomār biye pas korbe, takhan tomār biye kote pade.[?] He wrote it and read it. So the purport is that tomār jana.... "When you'll pass your B.A. examination, then you'll be allowed to marry. Now you don't talk of this Patel's..." [laughs] So we clapped him, and it was very nice. Mr. Cameron.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was a good professor? He was a good man?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. All these... We had all Scottish professors and one English professor. He was Mr. Warren. Otherwise, Mr. Scrimgeour, Mr. Cameron, Dr. Urquhart. We had all European professors.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They were a little strict. They were strict?

Prabhupāda: No, they were very good gentlemen. Dr. Urquhart was a godly man. He was so nice.

Satsvarūpa: Isn't he the one who said the woman's brain is thirty-two...

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. I remember. He told, the woman's brain, thirty-four ounce, man's brain, up to sixty-four ounce. He told. I remember. He was very saintly man, Dr. Urquhart. And before that there was one principal. He's Watt, Mr. Watt. He was the roughest man. He'd fight with the students like guṇḍā, Mr. Watt. But he was very good manager, principal.

Satsvarūpa: Did they try to make you Christian? Like that?

Prabhupāda: No. There was Bible class, compulsory, half an hour, from one to half past one.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Huh? No. They used to supply yearly one Bible, very nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Free. But no one became Christian.

Prabhupāda: [laughs] No one. In India, in those days... [break] ...Buddhist. Vaiśya. All the Jains. Jains... [break]

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Only vaiśya community.

Prabhupāda: Some were, not all. And the Muhammadans, the could not convert any gentleman to Muhammadanism. Maybe one or two, say. Very... And similarly, Christian also. No high-class man became Christian. One or two. That is for some other purpose. Just like in Scottish Churches College, the Christian Indians were given more preference. There was one Mr. Raya. He would not speak in Bengali. Even if some Bengali student would like to talk with him Bengali, he would answer in English. [laughs] He was so sharp. [Bengali] [Hindi] You understand Hindi any of you? There is a song, the Howrah Bridge, pontoon bridge. So when this Howrah Bridge..., not this bridge. Up to 1900... When my daughter was married, in 1941, up to that time there was a bridge connecting Howrah and Calcutta, pontoon bridge. That we were seeing from childhood, from our birth. So this was an astonishment in India. They wrote song, [Hindi], that "How wonderful bridge this sāheb company...," because India was being governed by East Indian Company... After mutiny, Queen Victoria took charge. Otherwise the British government was known as Company Raja Sahib, East India Company. So the East India Company, they constructed this temple, er, bridge. So there is a song, [Hindi], like that. So this East India Company... Therefore this railway was known, "East India Railway." That is the first beginning of railway, from Calcutta to Burdwan, beginning of Ind... There was no railway in India.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When was the railway first built?

Prabhupāda: Oh, I think about a hundred twenty-eight, long ago, because about twenty years ago there was centenary, hundred years. So the local produce was not exported. Everything was cheap in the village, because you have to consume. Whatever is produced in the village you have to consume. And these Britishers, they introduced railway and drew everything in the village to the town. And they would not sell in the village, because they would get good price in the city. Otherwise in the village, everything was very cheap, very, very cheap---milk, vegetables, rice, dāl, everything. And the Britishers, they had no food. They have got only the potato. In England, what they produce?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Nothing.

Prabhupāda: No food. So everything was exported. Their policy was to supply manufactured goods and take raw materials from India. So they supplied cotton goods. They saw that all Indians are using cotton cloth. Iron they introduced. They introduced railway line, all iron---the carriage, the wheel, the road. Everything was... In this way they became prosperous. And the Indian people, they saw... They were educated. Because they are fond of going to pilgrimage by walking. They would go... Suppose from here, Navadvīpa, one has to go to Vṛndāvana. He would make his will, because he does not know whether he'll come back or not. Long distance, thousand miles, you have to go by, on leg. They used to go. So they were advertised that "No. Now you'll have not to walk. The Company, they're making very easy-going railway." So they received it, "Oh! [Hindi]" [laughs] But their idea was to draw all the raw materials from villages and send it to England.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they advertised, "Now you can go..."

Prabhupāda: "Now you can go to tīrtha by nice railway."

Brahmānanda: British Railway.

Satsvarūpa: Company.

Prabhupāda: And they thought, "Oh, how beneficial the Amer..., English, British Company. They're giving us so much facility." And English education. They wanted to conduct their office affairs; they required some clerk. They did not want any highly educated. "Work here---ABCD---that's all. 'Yes. No. Very good,' bās." [laughs] So... And as soon as you learn "Yes, no, very good," you get fifty rupees' salary. So they gave up living in... That time fifty rupees is now five thousand.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Good salary.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So they all entered school, English education---"ABCD, yes, no, very good. Bās." And this is British policy. Otherwise India was very happy.

Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Do you want anything tonight?

Prabhupāda: No.

Hari-śauri: Channa?

Prabhupāda: No. Here is something here?

Hari-śauri: Rasagullā, yes.

Prabhupāda: If I require, I'll take. So Gandhi discovered, and the discovery was there Surendranath Ban..., that "They're exploiting us, so noncooperate. They are ruling over us by our cooperation, so let us noncooperate." But that is a foolish policy. Poverty-stricken country, how they can noncooperate? That was not successful. But this program, Subhas Bose's tit-for-tat, military, that was success. They're keeping our men as soldiers and police, and by their strength they're ruling over India. And Subhas Bose made a plan---the soldiers and police will noncooperate. They'll join his INA. And when they began to join Indian National Army, these intelligent Britishers could understand, "Now it is no more possible. With whose cooperation we shall kick?" Then they made a friendly settlement. Friendly means "Divide it so that they'll perpetually fight, and let us go."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems like that division was simply spiteful.

Prabhupāda: That is politics.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There was no purpose to it.

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What did England gain from the separation?

Prabhupāda: Gain means they are now finished. They have gained this. They have no prestige, no money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But what was their gain from dividing India and Pakistan?

Prabhupāda: Oh, that, that is enviousness.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Just spiteful enviousness.

Prabhupāda: Enviousness. Just like, you like..., who has done something wrong to you, you like to do some wrong, harm.

Hari-śauri: That was Churchill? Churchill's policy?

Prabhupāda: At that time not Churchill. Attlee. Attlee was Prime Minister.

Brahmānanda: In Africa, Nehru, he was instructing the African leaders also how to get...

Prabhupāda: Freedom.

Brahmānanda: ...freedom. So they all followed the Indian example. So the British, they were very resentful against the Indians.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now British making "Drive away. Drive away the Indians."

Brahmānanda: They became the leaders of the independence.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even now they are still resentful.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even now they're trying to drive them out of England.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Oh, yes. They're offering some compensation, that "Take some money and go away." Indians are prosperous in England.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wherever they go, they are prosperous. In America now...

Prabhupāda: In South Africa also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In America they are afraid, because the doctors, a huge percentage of the American doctors, are Indians.

Brahmānanda: Now they have stopped = no more Indian doctors in America.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They won't give any more doctor degrees to Indians, because they're taking over the whole medical profession.

Prabhupāda: In England also, they prefer Indian medical men.

Hari-śauri: They've done that already. The whole medical profession runs on Indians.

Prabhupāda: They prefer. Public likes Indian medical men...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they're more intelligent.

Prabhupāda: ...because they take more care.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. 'Cause they know about the soul. They care about the person more.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I know. In England they like Indian doctors. And last time, when I was in London, the Civil Surgeon, he was a Bengali. This Aurobindo's father, he was a medical practitioner. Aurobindo was born in London.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah, I didn't know that.

Prabhupāda: He was English-born, yes. His father, Dr. Monmohan Ghosh, he was medical man there. So although he was British-born, he became enemy of the British. [drinks medicine] Very bad medicine. [laughs]

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means good. I know when I was going to get that operation I didn't want to go to America. I would rather have gotten it here. Even though the machines may not have been so modern, the fact that the Indian doctors were here was more reassurance than the Americans. They are very...

Prabhupāda: Careless.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, one girl now... There's a devotee named Madhusūdana. You may remember one of your disciples, his name is Madhusūdana. Anyway, his cousin has joined us in New York. So this boy, he's married to a girl who was the chief nurse for the biggest neurosurgeon in America, who operated on Kennedy. A very big man. So she told us something about the medical profession, some examples. She said the American doctors are extremely cruel, and one time she...

Prabhupāda: Cruel they must be. They're eating meat, rākṣasas.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She was describing that one time they were all looking at this x-ray of one of the patients who had had severe pain. And inside the x-ray they saw that during the operation they had left the scissors and scalpel in the man's body. And all the doctors were standing there laughing, as if it was a big joke. They thought it was a big joke. For a long time this patient had had much pain in the side, and he did not know why. Then they took x-ray, and they found a scissors and a scalpel left inside, and the doctors thought it was a big joke.

Prabhupāda: Then again operated.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, another operation. Then another thing they were describing that there was a patient who was dying. There was no chance of his recovery, but still, in order to get... The man was a big man. So the television was covering because he was an important political figure. So the doctor performed this big brain operation, even though there was no purpose whatsoever, so that he could get advertised on the television as a very important doctor. And at one point he said, "Now bring in the television," and he cut the man's head and did a whole operation for no purpose at all. The person died anyway. But he was given advertisement that he was the most important surgeon. And they talk amongst themselves. She knew all this.

Prabhupāda: They were arranging my brain operation.

Brahmānanda: In New York. They threatened us that it must be done, that you must stay in the hospital. They refused that you should leave the hospital, and they wanted to take all these tests, spine..., put needles in the spine.

Hari-śauri: I read a story when we were in the U.S. about one doctor there. They took him to court, and they described how in order to get money, he was doing a very specialized operation on the spine. And he would tell people, for any reason at all, he would tell them that they must have this operation even when it wasn't necessary. And he was taking at the same time eight amphetamines every day to keep himself going. And he made so many mistakes, and all these people after the operations, they would come and they were paralyzed, or one man, his skin became so sensitive that he couldn't wear a shirt or anything because it was too painful, and another person would be crippled in another way from his mistakes that he made. And he was doing it simply on the basis to get more money. And at the same time he was living in a $100,000 house and maintaining big, big cars and like that. Then when they investigated him, they found out all these things.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The whole profession is crooked. She told that they have a cure for cancer. There's a cure for cancer. It comes from a natural herb available in South America. But the American Medical Association has forbidden the importation of this herb, because if they import it, then all of their cancer work is finished. And they're making billions of dollars doing cancer research. So they won't allow this herb to be imported. It has no bad effect, but they will not allow its importation. So one of our devotees, Jayānanda, you know he has cancer now.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Oh, he has very severe case of cancer.

Brahmānanda: They say he will die from this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All over his body these nodule protrusions have come, big lumps growing out, cancerous growths. After Ratha-yātrā this happened. So he went into the hospital, and they nearly killed him in the hospital. Practically they killed him. They put so many tests on him that he was nearly dead. He lost fifty, sixty pounds. He was practically dead. So then when I heard about this, I got him out of the hospital. There's no purpose. I could understand they didn't know what they were doing. They were just testing. So then he went... He's now in Tijuana, Mexico, and since taking this medicine all of the growths have gone away. Now how long he will live, that is another matter. But immediately all of these symptoms, outward symptoms, they're gone simply by taking this medical...

Prabhupāda: Herbs.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, this special medicines. But this is illegal. You have to go outside the United States. Even though they know about it, they won't allow it to come in, because then they will lose so much money. This girl who joined us, she was telling the most horrible things. She said they're all... She had to quit the profession because she could not stand to be doing this kind of work with these people, the so-called doctors. They were so cruel and cheaters.

Brahmānanda: When Gargamuni took you out of the hospital they threatened that now you will not recover, and now it is our responsibility, what we are doing. They tried to force us.

Prabhupāda: I could understand that. Therefore I said, "No, I am quite..." [laughs] They were arranging for my brain operation. Very dangerous.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This brain thing now, another thing they have done is... One of the things they do now in the hospitals is they give this shock treatment on the brain, and then they...

Brahmānanda: They put electricity into the brain.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The deprogrammers are using this. They call it "psychological readjustment," and they put electrical wires...

Prabhupāda: Yes, they put some machine in my head.

Brahmānanda: Well, that was for testing the brain waves. But this way, they put electric current into the brain...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And burn part of the brain, destroy the brain. One girl in our temple in New York, her father is the owner of Financed Foods, which is a very big food market chain like A & P supermarkets, very big, and her father owns it. So she... When she was young or before joining, she was a hippie. So her father didn't like that she was a hippie, so he had her put in the mental institution, and for 120 days in a row every day they gave her these shock treatments, and now she cannot remember hardly anything. When we talk to her she is just like, almost like a vegetable. I mean to say she cannot function as a normal person because her brain has been destroyed. Her father was trying to make her normal. Still, she has become a devotee. Now her father has again called her, telling her that he wants to have her go to the hospital to make her more "sane." He's destroyed his daughter, but he doesn't see that. I don't know if I told you about the person in Texas. Did I tell that story?

Hari-śauri: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No? Recently, about a month ago... This will give you an indication of the nature of how many people are becoming in America, and especially the authorities are becoming very unjust. One man had a son in Texas, and the boy was smoking marijuana. He was smoking for about a month or two. So for two weeks, when his father came to know, his father was telling him, "You should stop this smoking of marijuana," but the boy continued to smoke it. So one night the father came into the boy's room, took out a gun and shot his brains, killed him.

Prabhupāda: Killed him?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Killed his own son because he was smoking marijuana. He couldn't stand that the boy was smoking marijuana. Then after killing him he went to the police and turned himself in. So he came before the judge, woman judge, and he said that "I could not help it. This boy is my son, and look what he was doing. It is abominable. I had to kill him." And the judge said, "Yes, I can understand your feelings. It was intolerable." And she let the man go without one day jail sentence. No reprimand even. So this is the thing that is starting to happen now, that they are lobbying in the Congress in the United States to pass laws that if someone is abnormal, then the parents should have the right to commit him to psychological treatments. Even the child may be fifty years old and the parent may be seventy years old, if the parents think that child is not sane, then they have the right to get the child committed. So this has been passed in a couple of states, and already in California...

Prabhupāda: This is very dangerous.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One of our devotees in California was kidnapped out of the airport. She was distributing books in the airport in San Francisco, and because the court gave an order to the parents that "For thirty days you can take your daughter and commit her," so they have brought her to Arizona, where they have a special center set up for deprogramming, legal psychological tests. So for thirty days they ran these... They did some... We don't know what's going on there, some horrible things. Now the girl has sent a letter, and it showed that she is no longer in a devotional attitude. She said, "I'm very glad that I was rescued. Otherwise I would have been made to collect money all my life for your society, and now I'm saved from this."

Prabhupāda: She had been dictated to write like that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. But she has been... Probably they did some brain thing to her.

Prabhupāda: That is brainwash.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That is brainwashing. In fact, they may have given her shock treatments and drugs. They give very heavy drugs, with the idea that they will make her forget about Kṛṣṇa. And now they will bring her to court to testify against the Society, that "They did this to me. The Society was making me do this and this, and now I'm much healthier."

Prabhupāda: No, then the authorities are, mean, determined to stop this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. It's a dangerous position. This is actually a dangerous position, because they are very powerful. There are many lobbying people. In other words, there are big groups of Christian, Jewish groups. They are especially active because they see that these other movements---not only ours---are taking the young people away from their religions. So they are actively collecting money and giving it to these deprogrammers. They are supplying funds. Just like one man gave this Phoenix, Arizona, center a donation of a hundred thousand dollars to set up their center for taking these young people. And they are internationally organized. They have big centers all over the world now.

Brahmānanda: London, France, Australia, South America.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Canada, Australia. The problem is that we are... Actually it's a fact that many of these groups are bad. They're cheating. Of course, ours is not, but because they're not very intelligent, they cannot see the distinction. Probably as a result of this court case, we will make them aware that now the other groups are bogus but we are not. That they'll have to admit. That will be the effect. But at least up until now we are being lumped in with these other bad groups. Cults, they call them. But it's a very dangerous thing. Therefore the lawyers and all of the scholars and intelligentsia of the United States is very alarmed that this is a great treading on human rights. This is a great danger to human rights. Because the Fifth Amendment of the... The First Amendment of the United States Constitution guarantees the freedom of religion. But according to these laws that they want to pass, a parent can say, "It is not a question of religion. My son has become abnormal." So who is to say what is religion and what is abnormal? They are saying, "This is not religion." So we have to prove, "No, this is... Hare Kṛṣṇa is a religion." Otherwise they are saying that this is abnormal. Now, just... Our lawyer has pointed out that if you say that the devotees' preaching is brainwash, then you must say that every single Christian priest who preaches, he is also brainwashing.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You must condemn all preaching. So this is against the Amendment, the Constitutional First Amendment. So there is a big Constitutional case. This court case has great interest to all the people who are into civil right and things in the United States, because it is testing the freedom of religion. It's a test case. It's the biggest test case of this decade in the United States. And the American Civil Liberties Union is taking this up as their main..., as their main, er... one of their main points of fighting now. All over the United States they're defending. Of course, there are many groups also who are insisting, "We will fight, but only for Hare Kṛṣṇa. We are not going to align ourselves with a general group." They wanted to give a name, as Brahmānanda was saying. And they insisted that it must include the "Hare Kṛṣṇa." The name of our organization must include the word Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Brahmānanda: This is a group of scholars and intelligent people who want to help Hare Kṛṣṇa, in other words, friends of Hare Kṛṣṇa. So actually it was some of our devotees, they suggested that the name of this group should not say Hare Kṛṣṇa. It should say, "Friends of God conscious people," or something like that, because they thought the word Hare Kṛṣṇa makes some negative...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Reaction.

Prabhupāda: But Hare Kṛṣṇa is religion.

Brahmānanda: So one of the big scholars, he said that "I will not join any organization if Kṛṣṇa's name is not there."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Because I want to fight..."

Brahmānanda: "I want to fight for Hare Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: That is wanted. [laughs] That is wanted. We want that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This man is very prominent, Harvey Cox. He's the most prominent theologian, I think, in the United States, or one of the...

Brahmānanda: Harvard.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very big man. He is very active. He's organizing everything, he and that Dean Kelly. What is his position?

Satsvarūpa: He's National Council of Churches.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He's the head of the National Council of Churches, this Dean Kelly, and he is a very big proponent of our movement also.

Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa is sending so many men.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. We're going to win. But actually it is a dangerous situation, how the government is becoming so callous in the United States.

Brahmānanda: They compare it to Russia, because in Russia the system is if someone goes against...

Prabhupāda: State.

Brahmānanda: ...the state, they put him in a mental hospital. They don't put him in jail but in a mental hospital.

Prabhupāda: And kill him.

Brahmānanda: And they give..., practically kill him. So they're saying now the same thing is happening in America.

Bhavānanda: It's interesting, Śrīla Prabhupāda, though, that the devotees didn't want to mention Kṛṣṇa's name.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Bhavānanda: The devotees...

Prabhupāda: Being afraid of.

Hari-śauri: That's like when you first made it International Society for Krishna Consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So they have taken it very seriously, to stop.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Because their own young children, the future of the country, are joining these cults.

Brahmānanda: Two states have now passed laws that making this deprogramming legal, and also they have given tax exemption. That means the government is giving...

Prabhupāda: Support.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Support.

Brahmānanda: And they're even talking that maybe the government will give financial grant.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are afraid that these Kṛṣṇa conscious men may capture the government.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Some of them are saying like that = "This organization, the Kṛṣṇa con..., is a very powerful organization, and their ambition is to take over the world."

Prabhupāda: [laughs] And that's a fact. [laughter] Well, let us see. [laughter] It is a fight between Kṛṣṇa and demon. Let us do our duty and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everything will be all right. There are so many demons. Prahlāda Mahārāja was five-years-old boy, and his father, such a big demon. The fight was at home. Still, Prahlāda Mahārāja gained victory. Similarly, you are all Prahlāda Mahārāja, [laughs] and your fathers are great demons. The fight is there. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Depend on Kṛṣṇa. You'll come out victorious. Nṛsiṁha-deva will come. So [laughing] the poison of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is acting now. That is good. If we come out victorious, then it will be a great victory.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And we're going to. All of the intelligent people acknowledge. All the newspapers, everybody who we talked to confidentially, they all say, "You cannot lose this case." Everyone is surprised why that D.A. is pushing this case.

Prabhupāda: He's earning salary. That's all.

Hari-śauri: Trying to make a name for himself. That's all.

Prabhupāda: Money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because it's a foolish...

Prabhupāda: Unless he makes devices and talks very overintelligently, how he'll get money? Just like the so-called scientist says and doctor says, big, big jugglery of words, and they get money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have their doctors and psychiatrists now. Just as we are getting armed with so many statements, they are also gathering together their groups of doctors and psychiatrists to all attest to the fact. But they have nothing to say. They're trying to get behind them some men, but the men are not of as much consequence as our people are. But then you see another thing they do is they cause trouble through other processes. For instance, they will audit the accounts, look into the Society's monies, and they'll try to...

Prabhupāda: They'll try to give us trouble in so many ways.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So many ways. So we have to be very careful.

Brahmānanda: Did you hear in Argentina?

Hari-śauri: Yes, a little bit. Just that we've been banned.

Prabhupāda: What happened?

Brahmānanda: They have banned our Society and also Guru Maharaj-ji.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And Jehovah's Witnesses.

Brahmānanda: Because these societies go against the Argentine culture, morals and nationhood.

Prabhupāda: And so we have to close?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's already closed.

Brahmānanda: And they seized our books.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Books were seized for twenty thousand dollars' worth of books.

Brahmānanda: But there has been some reports in the newspapers that Argentina now is a military dictatorship, and it's very bad place. Many people are being taken and shot regularly.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now... But also in Venezuela, there, now the government wants to audit the accounts. They are asking for a public auditing of our books.

Prabhupāda: Public property?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Audit. Audit.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Brahmānanda: They want to check our books, how we are..., where we are collecting and how we are spending.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have to be very cautious in dealing in these countries. We talked with Hṛdayānanda Mahārāja, and he said now that they are changing their tactic a little bit. They are becoming more cautious, because before they were too bold. Just like Brahmānanda was describing, when he first went to Africa, they had the van...

Brahmānanda: With loudspeakers and... We were very ambitious. So the people, they'd never seen anything like this, and so they accepted it. But then after a while, they resented. If you become too much... Actually, the governments feel very threatened. That was one of the reasons why you were not permitted to land in Kenya, because it was so much advertised, they put banners across the main avenue, and radio, TV announcements, posters. They saw this as a..., something that will go against..., eclipse their government, their own president. You were more famous. [Prabhupāda laughs] Therefore they tried to say, "No, I am more famous." So therefore they didn't want you to come.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So it's better in some cases to be a little cautious, low key. Slow. Better to go slowly sometimes than very fast.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not become aggressive.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. But then again, not too slowly.

Prabhupāda: So in our Argentina we are no longer.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no more.

Prabhupāda: So...

Brahmānanda: They arrested some of our Argentine devotees.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Five devotees were arrested.

Brahmānanda: Americans were not arrested.

Prabhupāda: We cannot bring any case?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, no. They are the government. The government has arrested. There is no real law system there right now. It is a very..., it's a dictatorship, military dictatorship, a very volatile situation.

Prabhupāda: Like Russia.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even in some ways worse, because it is not at all stable. There's nothing set. It's just chaotic, very chaotic.

Brahmānanda: Open murders. They have squads going around and taking people and just...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Shooting. Very dangerous.

Brahmānanda: Many prominent Argentine people are fleeing the country, going to Mexico and other places. So now they have just uncovered a big plot where the Argentines were sending assassins to other countries to kill the Argentine...

Prabhupāda: Refugees.

Brahmānanda: So they have just uncovered a list of names. It was put in the paper. The economy of Argentina is almost ninety percent on beef production, animal slaughter.

Hari-śauri: The biggest beef country in the world.

Prabhupāda: They eat beef only.

Brahmānanda: And export all over the world.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I've seen that they eat beef in the morning, noon and evening. I personally saw when I was in South America that in these South American countries, they eat meat sometimes three meals in a day. Of course, in America they do it also. I remember in restaurants in Mexico they were doing that. Very big meat-eaters.

Prabhupāda: In Russia also, simply eating meat.

Brahmānanda: Meat and vodka.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: They have no vegetables available. I read in the newspapers here in India now that Poland, they are putting up a vodka factory. Punjab.

Prabhupāda: What is that vodka?

Brahmānanda: It's a liquor made from potato. So now they're making a factory in Punjab.

Prabhupāda: Punjab?

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So government has allowed.

Brahmānanda: Oh, yes. So they will make vodka here for exporting to Poland, because the Polish people like vodka very much. So now they will produce in India.

Prabhupāda: The Polish Embassy is there near our Calcutta for seeing this business going on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Side by side. We are on the opposite business.

Prabhupāda: [chuckles] Things are deteriorating everywhere.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very quickly.

Prabhupāda: So this will give impetus to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg. 4.7]. Don't be disappointed. Kṛṣṇa will act through His movement and kill them, these demons. How it will be done, that you cannot know now, but it will be done. Let us remain true soldiers. That's all. And if it is a fight... Suppose we die in the fight. The fight means with vow, with determination, either to gain victory or die. Because it is fight against māyā, why we shall be afraid of being killed? [chuckles] Where there is fight, one must know that "Either I am going to be killed or gain victory." Jīvo vā māro vā. Those who are devotees, either they live or they die---the same thing. While they live they are serving Kṛṣṇa; when they die they will serve Kṛṣṇa. Jīvo vā māro vā. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. He goes to Kṛṣṇa. [laughs] So what is the loss? We are working for Kṛṣṇa, and if we die we go to Kṛṣṇa. So what is the loss? Same business.

Hari-śauri: No loss. There's just gain.

Prabhupāda: Jīvo vā māro vā: "Either you live or you die, it doesn't matter." And for butcher, nā jīvo nā māro: "Don't die; don't live. So long you are living, every morning you have to cut throat of so many. And if you die you shall go to hell and suffer for this cutting throat. So don't live; don't die." And for a devotee = "Live or die." And for prince, king's son, "Don't die." And for brahmacārī... [break]

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...all night.

Prabhupāda: All night screaming. And they have to hear, the Indians.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Purposely.

Prabhupāda: Because they know the Indian Hindus, they have got sentiment for cow killing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So why? Why...?

Prabhupāda: They may go away.

Hari-śauri: He says every five years or so they move them to another area. They have to uproot everything and move somewhere else.

Prabhupāda: Very badly treated, Indians. The blacks are still more badly treated.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That government is going to be finished soon.

Prabhupāda: When I had to go that Indian quarter in Johannesburg, at least ten miles by car through the darkness.

Brahmānanda: Yes, it's all... The Indian quarters are far off.

Prabhupāda: Still, they're prosperous. They have got car. They have got business. They have got factories. Although they are harassed in so many ways, still they are prosperous. They have got their shops and business house in Johannesburg, and they cannot remain there. They must go back. So that was a failure of Gandhi. Gandhi for twenty years agitated. General Smuts, he was the head at that time. And he was beaten. He was so much troubled. Once upon a time Gandhi was captured and beat so severely that he was going to die immediately. Some English South African friend, he saved him. So Gandhi's life from this side is a failure. He could not achieve any success there. Then he thought that "I shall drive these Englishmen from my country." He came here in 1917.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gandhi was born in...?

Prabhupāda: Gandhi is a Gujarati.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But he went to South Africa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. South Af... He had no practice here. One attorney, he told me in Bombay that "Your Gandhi was waiting for cases here, sitting in this chair." He was not even successful lawyer. Then he got a case in Africa. He thought it wise, "Let me go there." And there, instead of becoming a lawyer, he became a political agitator. So to take equal status for the Indians he fought there. And that was failure. Still it is going on. They are very determined not to give any advantage to anyone except these whites.

Hari-śauri: They know as soon as they give little leeway, then their whole government will be finished.

Prabhupāda: Very strict. Still, they purchase my books.

Brahmānanda: The whites.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: They were... I think the first time you went there they even were bowing down...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: ...in the airport. And this caused big sensation, because never, even when big Indian gurus have come to South Africa, never have any whites bowed down. It was the first time that whites bowed down to...

Prabhupāda: They clapped. After hearing me they clapped. They purchased books. Now they are selling books. So I think my books are more important. We shall give more concentration for pushing on and publishing. What do you think?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That is our weapons. They are our strength, they are our guidance and they are our ammunition. Everything is based on these books. Everything. We are...

Prabhupāda: One Indian, a very learned scholar in Chandigarh, he has given very good certificate. What is that?

Satsvarūpa: He said that "There have been many commentaries on the Bhagavad-gītā, including Rāmānuja, Madhva and Śaṅkara, and then," he said, "Tilak and Gandhi, but of all of them the commentary by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami is the greatest commentary." Punjab University. Then he said later that "In this suffering mankind, God has sent His Holiness A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said greater than the other ācāryas.

Satsvarūpa: Yes. Greater than Rāmānuja and Madhva.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And he's a big man.

Prabhupāda: He is very big man. Respected. Very good scholar also. He goes outside for lecturing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Practically all the devotees feel your presence through these books.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Their life is sustained with these books---these books and chanting and the Deity worship---sustaining all the devotees in the world and bringing new devotees. Everyone we ask who joins this movement, "Before you joined, did you get a book?" "Yes." In every case I have seen that the first thing was the book.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then, after reading, they became convinced, and then they joined.

Prabhupāda: So let us do our duty. Our attempt Kṛṣṇa will see. That gentleman has written, "Swami Bhaktivedanta will be remembered for centuries, making history." Is not that?

Satsvarūpa: "Unsurpassed," this... Not just remembered; it will be unsurpassed.

Prabhupāda: And many foreign scholars also, they have. In France... In France one professor has said, "The..."

Satsvarūpa: Chenique?

Prabhupāda: "...Aurobindo and Dr. Radhakrishnan, they have compromised with the Western idea, but here is the real tradition of India." Actually that's a fact. All of them, they have tried to make a hodgepodge. And from the beginning my idea was I shall present as it is. That's all. Therefore I gave this name, "As It Is." Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Why shall I manufacture idea? Present this as it is. All right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Let us do our duty. [devotees offer obeisances] [break] So at any cost, I am still dictating. I'll go on dictating so long I live. That's all. But this is very nice program, our farm program. Practical. So if possible, Paramānanda may come and teach them.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. This is the most successful farm at least in our society from the production point of view.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I saw personally. He is working very hard, and everyone is happy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, everyone is happy.

Prabhupāda: You were there?

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Prabhupāda: It is very nice. I always remember. Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. [end]