Room Conversation , Bhubaneswar , 1977-01-31

Pradyumna: All the basic questions are asked,

Prabhupāda: Burbs.

Pradyumna: "What is life? What is this?" So many things.

Prabhupāda: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." This is the... The world is full of rascals and fools. So if you speak something sanity, they will take "insanity." That is the difficulty. Two things are there = one spirit, one matter. They ignore spirit completely. Although they cannot understand, cannot replace. Just like the body. The body is smashed, but what was the element keeping the body? This simple thing they cannot understand. There are two things = matter and spirit. Unfortunate. When we speak of spirit, they take it as brainwash. So fool. [aside:] So you can take it so long I am resting. [japa] [break] [loud kīrtana in background] ...correctly. Then the dīkṣā-guru. If you like [indistinct---microphone moving]. Then he is dīkṣā-guru. So śikṣā-guru becomes dīkṣā-guru. But guru means one who knows the science of Kṛṣṇa and teaches properly. That's all.

Guest (1): Are you knowing people take dīkṣā from many gurus?

Prabhupāda: No, dīkṣā-guru is one.

Guest (1): One.

Prabhupāda: But śikṣā-guru can be many.

Guest (1): But suppose dīkṣā-gurus or people take one mantra from one guru and other one...

Prabhupāda: Then you have not selected guru; you have selected some rascal. Guru can be..., cannot be different. Guru means one who knows the science of Kṛṣṇa. Yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya [Cc. Madhya 8.128]. Anyone who knows the science... So suppose if you want to become medical man, you must go to a qualified medical man to learn. And if you go to a pān-wālā, what he'll teach you? That is your mistake. Guru cannot be different. Guru is one, one who knows the science of Kṛṣṇa. If he does not know, then he is not guru. Why should you go there?

Guest (1): How should we know that he knows about Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: That requires your fortune. Little intelligence. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. That intelligence is for the most fortunate person. That is not ordinary thing. But guru means who knows the science of Kṛṣṇa. If you go to a bogus man, that is your misfortune. So this is the description of guru = yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's statement.

kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya
yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya

[Cc. Madhya 8.128]

It doesn't matter whether he is a sannyāsī or gṛhastha or a brāhmaṇa or śūdra. It doesn't matter. If he knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, then he remains guru.

Guest (1): Science of Kṛṣṇa. If he knows about Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā or anything else.

Prabhupāda: To know about Kṛṣṇa. It is not also difficult. Science of Kṛṣṇa is there, Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa speaks Himself. So to know the science of Kṛṣṇa is also not difficult. But because we are unfortunate, we go to rascal, and they interpret Bhagavad-gītā in a rascaldom way, and you are missing. So you should be very careful not to go to a rascal. Then your mission will be successful. If you want to purchase gold, you must go to a shop where actually gold is purchased, gold. If you do not know, then you'll be cheated. That is not also very difficult. That I have repeatedly said. Those who are interpreting in their own way Bhagavad-gītā, he's a rascal; he's not guru. As soon as he says an interpretation, "I think like this," you reject that. Why should we think like that? You should preach what Kṛṣṇa says. Then you are right. Why should you say something which Kṛṣṇa does not say? Then you are misguided. He does not know Kṛṣṇa. He's not kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā. So he's cheating. That is going on. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], and these rascals say, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa person." So he's a rascal. He's taking Kṛṣṇa's book and preaching against it. So what will be benefit if you go to such a rascal? Therefore there is no difference between śikṣā-guru and dīkṣā-guru, because if he's actually guru, he'll not say anything which Kṛṣṇa has not spoken. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa. So guru is that. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128] = "You become a guru." And what is the function of the guru? Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa. That is there. You haven't got to manufacture any instruction. Whatever is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, you say. You try to convince him with logic, with philosophy, with your knowledge, same thing, not philosophy. That is intelligence. And suppose Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Before that, Kṛṣṇa has described everything, why you should surrender to Kṛṣṇa. At last He says, "Surrender." So there is no difficulty. Immediately Kṛṣṇa does not say, "You surrender to Me." But after describing everything---karma-yoga, jñāna-yoga, dhyāna-yoga, so many things, politics, sociology, religion, everything---at last He says that "This is the most confidential part. You surrender unto Me."

So one who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, how he can become guru? He's a cheater. Yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya [Cc. Madhya 8.128]. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. One who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he's actually jñānavān. And this jñānavān is possible after many, many births. Not so easily, to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. But if he's there, such a person---vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ---he is mahātmā. That is mahātmā, not by stamping, anyone, a person can become mahātmā. This is the symptom of mahātmā: one who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa fully. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. So that is guru, mahātmā, who knows vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. Such mahātmā is guru. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manasaḥ [Bg. 9.13]. The guru has no other business than kṛṣṇa-bhajana. So that you have to see. You have to learn. You have to appreciate with persons who are actually engaged in kṛṣṇa-bhajana. Then you'll understand. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ [Cc. Madhya 23.14]. Sādhu means bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. He's sādhu. Who? Who has no other business than Kṛṣṇa. Mix with such sādhu who are actually executing kṛṣṇa-bhajana. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ. This is the description of the sādhu. Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ. These things are there. There is no question of being misled. But if you purposefully mislead yourself, who can check? In the beginning you may commit some mistake, but when you study Bhagavad-gītā---who is sādhu, who is mahātmā, who is guru---then why shall we make, commit mistake again? If you have done mistake---you have gone to a rascal who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious---then when you read Bhagavad-gītā, you can understand. Why you are misled? Why you should be misled? If it is written on the road, "Keep to the left," why should you be misled and go to the right? Go to the left; then you are not misled.

So here it is said, mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.13]. A mahātmā means who is always engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why do you accept somebody as mahātmā who does not speak about Kṛṣṇa? Then you are misleading yourself. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. Everything, direction, is there. Why you create your own mahātmā? If you want to be cheated, who can check you? That is your fault. In Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said,

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante
jñānavān māṁ prapadyate
vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti
sa mahātmā...

Sa mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manasaḥ [Bg. 9.13]. Sādhur... Api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk [Bg. 9.30]. He's mahātmā. He's sādhu. We shall go to him. Why shall we go to a rascal? Simple directions. So if you are misled, if you are cheated, whose fault it is? But if you want to be cheated, who can check? Even though somebody by mistake has gone to a rascal, the book is there. As soon as you find out, "Here is a rascal who does not know anything about Kṛṣṇa, and I have come to him," reject him. That is stated in the śāstra. Gurur apy avaliptasya kāryākāryam ajānantaḥ parityāgo vidhīyate. Even by mistake you have come to a rascal who does not know how to become guru, you can reject him. Why should you stick to him? Reject him. And by mistake I have come to rascal. Why shall I continue to accept him as guru? Cāṇakya Paṇḍita said, tyaja durjana-saṁsargaṁ bhaja sādhu-samāgamam: "Give up all rascals. Associate with sādhus." If you do not do that, that is your fault. Tyaja durjana-saṁsargaṁ bhaja sādhu-samāgamam. We have to mix with sādhu. Sādhu means who are twenty-four-hours engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. Things are there. Why should you mix with asādhu? Then how can you understand? Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ [Cc. Madhya 23.14]. If you have got little faith, then next business is to associate with sādhus.

Guest (2): Daily how many times you'll utter the names of Lord Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Twenty-four hours. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31]. There is no question of "How many times?" But if you have got other business, make some minimum quantity.

Guest (2): Minimum?

Prabhupāda: Quantity. Minimum number.

Satsvarūpa: If you can't chant all day---you have other business---at least make a quota and chant that every day. In our... Prabhupāda's disciples, we promise to chant at least sixteen rounds on the beads, japa-mālā, every day. One round is 108 mantras.

Guest (2): Sixteen rounds.

Satsvarūpa: Yes. Sixteen of those rounds, at least.

Prabhupāda: It comes to twenty-five thousand. So Haridāsa Ṭhākura was chanting three lakhs. That is not possible. Twenty-five thousand minimum. Now you can increase as much as you like.

Guest (3): Is there a difference between Rāma and Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: No difference. Rāma is Bhagavān. Kṛṣṇa is Bhagavān. Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu. Bhagavān has got many incarnations = Nṛsiṁha-deva, Varāhadeva, Rāma, Rāma, Paraśurāma, Balarāma, Dāśarathi Rāma. So whomever you like, you can worship. [long pause]

Guest (4): Should you count every day how much you do japa?

Satsvarūpa: Should you count every day how much japa you do?

Prabhupāda: That is... He's doing at least sixteen times.

Guest (4): No, suppose if we don't count?

Prabhupāda: No, the mālā is counting.

Guest (4): No. Suppose if we don't follow it, it's not beneficial?

Prabhupāda: Beneficial, but you must fill up your promise, vow, that "I shall chant."

Guest (4): So I just go on chanting.

Prabhupāda: Dṛḍha-vrata. First be dṛḍha-vrata. If your chanting is not finished, you should give up your sleeping. You must try to finish. That is called dṛḍha-vrata. So whatever promise, quota---"I must finish it." Stop all other business. That is called dṛḍha-vrata. Bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ. [aside:] Find out this verse, mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha [Bg. 9.13]. No, then satataṁ kīrtayanto mām [Bg. 9.14].

Satsvarūpa: Not mahātmānas? Next one. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ.

Prabhupāda: Dṛḍha-vrata. If you have no dṛḍha-vrata, [laughing] that is no vow. So that dṛḍha-vrata means you must promise that "I shall chant at least, minimum, so many times." That is called dṛḍha-vrata.

Satsvarūpa: "With determination."

Prabhupāda: With determination. Otherwise, satataṁ kīrtayanto mām [Bg. 9.14]. Satatam means twenty-four hours. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31]. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. But that we cannot do. Therefore to keep dṛḍha-vrata, we have fixed up a certain quantity. Chant that. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ kālāvasānī-kṛtau. About the Gosvāmīs---saṅkhyā-pūrvaka: "So many times." Not only chanting, also offering obeisances. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ. Nati means praṇati. "I shall offer obeisances hundred times." Gosvāmīs, they used to do that. Still in Rādhā-kuṇḍa, Vṛndāvana, you'll see many devotees, they offer, counting, flat, so many times. So we have to take some labor. It is not so easy thing that you realize God [chuckling] so easily. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ kālāvasānī-kṛtau. This valuable time of human life should be utilized only for cultivating Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is perfect. No other business. Sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. That is sarva-dharmān. But if you cannot do that, all right, make minimum = "So many times I shall chant. So many times I shall offer obeisances." Make some dṛḍha-vrata. Then gradually it will be successful.

Guest (5): [Bengali, about japa twenty-four hours]

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa---twenty-four hours. Hmm? Japa-tapa. Tapasya. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam [SB 5.5.1]. Japa means tapa, tapasya. And that is dṛḍha-vrata. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa [SB 6.1.13]. Tapasya begins with brahmacarya. There is no tapasya, there is no brahmacarya, there is no dṛḍha-vrata, there is no understanding, and they are becoming guru. Just see these Europeans, Americans. Their life beginning was meat-eating. And they have given up everything. This is tapasya. And "We shall eat everything, do everything..." Yato mata tato patha. "Whatever I like, I do, and still I am a devotee." What is this nonsense? Jaya.

Guest (6): Viśvāsa, faith, strong.

Prabhupāda: No, where is faith if we do not execute tapasya? Where is faith? Viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya [Cc. Madhya 22.62]. That is viśvāsa, the same thing. This is viśvāsa: "Kṛṣṇa said this; I shall do." This is viśvāsa. And if you do not do anything what Kṛṣṇa says, where is viśvāsa? There is no viśvāsa. Kṛṣṇa says, satataṁ kīrtayanto mām [Bg. 9.14] = "Anyone who is chanting Me, Hare Kṛṣṇa..." So Kṛṣṇa says; I must do it. That is viśvāsa. If you do not do that, where is viśvāsa? What do you mean by viśvāsa? Viśvāsa means sudṛḍha niścaya. "Yes, Kṛṣṇa has said. I shall do." That is viśvāsa. If you have no faith in the words of Kṛṣṇa, where is your viśvāsa? What do you mean by viśvāsa? Hmm?

Guest (6): Bhagavān's servant.

Prabhupāda: Bhagavān is your servant. Whatever you like, you can do, and He'll serve you. You'll not serve Him. He will serve you. Is that viśvāsa? "Whatever nonsense I do, Kṛṣṇa will support." Is that viśvāsa? Viśvāsa means "What Kṛṣṇa says, I shall do." That is viśvāsa. That has been impressed at the modern age, that "Whatever I do, Kṛṣṇa will accept it." Is it not? Do you mean viśvāsa means this, that "Whatever nonsense you do, Kṛṣṇa will accept"? Do you mean viśvāsa means this? Then what is viśvāsa? Explain. "Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, I will do," that is viśvāsa, or "Whatever nonsense I do, Kṛṣṇa will favor"? Which one viśvāsa? What do you mean? Huh?

Guest (6): There is one pervading Supreme Soul.

Prabhupāda: What is that pervading? What do you mean by that? Plain explain. What do you mean by viśvāsa? Explain.

Guest (6): Faith in God.

Prabhupāda: Faith in God. Then hear what God says. That is I am speaking, that "What Kṛṣṇa says, you do it." That is viśvāsa. And if you do otherwise, where is viśvāsa? Hmm? Viśvāsa means... I say, "Mr. such and such, do this." If you have faith in me, you will do this. That is viśvāsa. And if you do otherwise, where is your viśvāsa? You have no faith in me. Now people have degraded so much that they think, "This is viśvāsa. Anything I accept as God is God." Is it not? This viśvāsa is going on. "Any nonsen..." [break] ...pravartate, iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ [Bg. 10.8]. So if you take this, that Kṛṣṇa is the beginning of everything---iti matvā---by understanding this, if anyone engages himself in kṛṣṇa-bhakti, bhajante mām, that is bhakti. Budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ. He has come immediately to the bhāva stage. Means he's budhāḥ. He is actually. He has actually understood the thing. So that is viśvāsa. In Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said viśvāsa..., śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa kahe sudṛḍha niścaya, kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya [Cc. Madhya 22.62]. Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. This is viśvāsa. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. I am thinking, "I have got so many other things. Simply why shall I surrender?" That is not viśvāsa. Viśvāsa means "Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ. I'll accept." Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta. That is viśvāsa. Sudṛḍha niścaya. Śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya, kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. That is viśvāsa. That viśvāsa wanted, not that I manufacture something. It is useless. Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ [Bg. 9.12]. That is hopeless. What Kṛṣṇa says, if you believe firmly, then it is viśvāsa. Dṛḍha-vrata. And execute, determination. Then you get the result. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. Such mahātmā is very rare. And nowadays mahātmā means one who does not know anything about Kṛṣṇa, speaks all nonsense, he is mahātmā. "Because we stamp somebody, mahātmā, therefore he is mahātmā." [aside:] Find out this verse = mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim [Bg. 9.13].


mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha
daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ
bhajanty ananya-manaso
jñātvā bhūtādim avyayam

"O son of Pṛthā, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible."

Prabhupāda: This is mahātmā. Is there any purport?

Satsvarūpa: Yes. "In this verse the description of mahātmā is clearly given. The first sign of the mahātmā is that he is already situated in the divine nature. He is not under the control of material nature. And how is this effected? That is explained in the Seventh Chapter. One who surrenders unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, at once becomes freed from the control of material nature. That is the qualification."

Prabhupāda: Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti [Bg. 7.14].

Satsvarūpa: "One can become free from the control of material nature as soon as he surrenders his soul to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is the preliminary formula. Being marginal potency, as soon as the living entity is freed from the control of material nature, he is put under the guidance of the spiritual nature. The guidance of the spiritual nature is called daivīṁ prakṛtim, divine nature. So when one is promoted in that way by surrendering to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one attains to the stage of a great soul, mahātmā. The mahātmā does not divert his attention to anything outside Kṛṣṇa because he knows perfectly well that Kṛṣṇa is the original Supreme Person, the cause of all causes. There is no doubt about it. Such a mahātmā, or great soul, develops through association with other mahātmās, pure devotees. Pure devotees are not even attracted by Kṛṣṇa's other features, such as the four-armed Mahā-Viṣṇu. They are simply attracted by the two-armed form of Kṛṣṇa. Since they are not attracted to other features of Kṛṣṇa, what to speak of the demigods, they are not concerned with any form of a demigod or of a human being. They only meditate upon Kṛṣṇa in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are always engaged in the unswerving service of the Lord in Kṛṣṇa consciousness."

Prabhupāda: Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That is the... What do you think? What is your definition of mahātmā?

Guest (1): Gītā said, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19].

Prabhupāda: Yes. Gītā says, but what you say? [long pause] Recently I went to Wardha, Mahatma Gandhi's āśrama. Nobody is there. And they are worshiping Mahatma's lantern, and Mahatma's cādar. Not a single picture of Kṛṣṇa. [chuckles] There is not a single picture of Kṛṣṇa. And here it is said, bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. This is going on. [pause] So read Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Learn. Everything is there. Make your life successful. That is our proposal. Come here. We have developed this center in good quarter. Discuss Bhagavad-gītā and try to do what Kṛṣṇa says. Make your life perfect. [Hindi] We are misguided. Misguided... [Hindi] Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā: "This mahātmā; this is God; this is function; this you have to do." Do it. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Four things anyone can do. A child can do.

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ
śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ
sa me yuktatamo mataḥ

First-class yogī---one who is thinking of Kṛṣṇa. [Hindi] There is no difficulty. Take Bhagavān prasāda; chant Bhagavān's name; read Bhagavad-gītā; try to understand. Very easy. Hmm? What is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? Hmm? Do you think is there any difficulty? [Hindi]

Guest (7): [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi with guests] [break] ...asat-saṅga-tyāga ei vaiṣṇava-ācāra [Cc. Madhya 22.87]. You must give up the association of bad elements. And who is bad element? Asat eka strī-saṅgī kṛṣṇa abhakta: One bad element is one who is too much attached to women, and the other bad element is who is not devotee of God. Give up their association. Then you will be steady. Mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimukteḥ [SB 5.5.2]. If you actually associate with mahātmās, so that will open your door of liberation. Mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimuktes tamo-dvāraṁ yoṣitāṁ saṅgi-saṅgam. Those who are too much materially attached, if you associate with them, then you are going in the darkest region---not liberation, but in the darkness. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram [SB 7.5.30]. Those who are too much to material enjoyment---they cannot control their senses---they're going in the darkest region. Tamo-dvāram. Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya. This is Vedic instruction, "Don't go to the darkness; go to the light." Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Satsvarūpa: There is prasādam being served now.

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] [end]