Room Conversation , Bhubaneswar , 1977-01-27

Pradyumna: [reads Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu to Prabhupāda]

Prabhupāda: Yes. [corrects a word] You first accept these ten different methods. So explain that.

Pradyumna: Guru-pādāśrayaḥ: "First one must take shelter of the lotus feet of a spiritual master." Tasmāt kṛṣṇa-dīkṣādi-śikṣaṇam. Tasmāt, "from him," kṛṣṇa-dīkṣādi-śikṣaṇam, "one should take kṛṣṇa-dīkṣā, initiation, and śikṣā."

Prabhupāda: Dīkṣā means divya-jñānaṁ kṣapayati iti dīkṣā.[?] Which explains the divya-jñāna, transcendental, that is dīkṣā. Di, divya, dīkṣāṇām. Dīkṣā. So divya-jñāna, transcendental knowledge... If you don't accept spiritual master, how you'll get transcen... You'll be taught here and there, here and there, and waste time. Waste time for the teacher and waste your valuable time. Therefore you have to be guided by an expert spiritual master. Read it.

Pradyumna: Kṛṣṇa-dīkṣādi-śikṣaṇam.

Prabhupāda: Śikṣaṇam. We have to learn. If you don't learn, how you'll make progress? Then?

Pradyumna: Viśrambheṇa guroḥ sevā: "One should serve the guru, viśrambha..."

Prabhupāda: With great respect, with reverence and respect. Then?

Pradyumna: Sādhu-vartmānuvartanam.

Prabhupāda: And you must see that what you are doing, that is according to the principle which all other sādhus and devotees do. They have tilaka, and you say, "I have no tilaka." That is not sādhu-mārgānu. Sādhu-mārgānugamanam. They have kaṇṭhi. You say, "I can avoid it." That is not sādhu-mārgānugamanam. So from very beginning, if you disobey, then how you'll make progress? Then?

Pradyumna: Sad-dharma-pṛcchā.

Prabhupāda: Sad-dharma-pṛcchā. You have to inquire from guru how to make progress. That is sad-dharma. Asad-dharma and sad-dharma. Sad gamaya, asato mā: "Don't remain in darkness. Make progress." Oṁ tat sat. So sad-dharma-pṛcchā. Then?

Pradyumna: Then bhogādi-tyāgaḥ kṛṣṇasya hetave.

Prabhupāda: Ah. For Kṛṣṇa you have to give up sense gratification. No illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling---you have to adopt so many things, tyāga. Anartha-nivṛtti. These are anartha, unnecessary things. Do you think if you do not smoke, you die? Unnecessary. What is absolutely necessary, you accept. So bhogādi-tyāgaḥ kṛṣṇārthe. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66] = "You have created so many unnecessary things. Give up." So that is not possible immediately, but it is possible. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ [Cc. Madhya 23.15]. The sādhu-saṅga means associate with sādhu, guru. If we have śraddhā, that "I shall now become Kṛṣṇa conscious"---this is śraddhā: "It is very nice"---then sādhu-saṅga [Cc. Madhya 22.83] = those who are actually Kṛṣṇa conscious, you associate with him. Then bhajana-kriyā. Then bhajana-kriyā... The bhajana, that rise early in the morning, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, take your bath and so many things, bhajana-kriyā... Then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Then all these unwanted things will be finished automatically. And if you do not do these first three, the fourth will not come, fourth stage, anartha... And after anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt, then niṣṭhā, firm faith. Then anartha..., tato ruciḥ, then taste. Then you get taste. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ..., anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt, tato niṣṭhā tato ruciḥ [Cc. Madhya 23.14]. Taste. Just like you have got a taste for a food; you cannot give it up = "I want this." Ruci. Athāsaktiḥ. Then you become attached. Tato bhāvaḥ. Sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ. This is the subject there.[?]

Pradyumna: Ādau śraddhā?

Prabhupāda: This is the next, I think. Śraddhā is the beginning---faith. That faith means firm faith. Just like Kavirāja Gosvāmī says, śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa kahe sudṛḍha niścaya [Cc. Madhya 22.62]. That is faith, fixed-up, firm faith. Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. When you have got firm faith in this---"Yes! If I surrender to Kṛṣṇa, all other dharmas will be performed automatically"---then that is called faith. In the beginning, if you have no faith, where is the beginning? Then what is?

Pradyumna: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ. This is everything, description. So everything is there. We should take advantage and become perfect. And this is the chance of becoming perfect, the human form of life. If we miss it---finished. Nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra... [Bg. 9.3]. Again go to the cycle of birth. Where is guarantee I am not going to be a dog? Who can check it? Nobody can. Nature's law is very strong. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. Find out this verse, Bhagavad-gītā. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu.

Pradyumna:

Prabhupāda: Why one is taking birth as a brāhmaṇa and why one is taking birth as a dog? So kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. There are three qualities = sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. So ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ [Bg. 14.18]. If you become..., associate with sattva-guṇa, then you are elevated more and more. Madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ. You remain where you are if you associate rajo-guṇa. And jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-sthā adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ. And if you practice jaghanya, most abominable practices of tamo-guṇa, then go down. You cannot check it. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. Guṇaiḥ again. Just like if you have infected some disease, cholera disease, you must suffer from cholera. If you have infected disease of smallpox, then you must suffer from smallpox. You cannot check it. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. You should be very cautious so that you may not be affected by this infectious disease. Therefore you require sadācāra. Always remain neat and clean and always associate with sādhus and Kṛṣṇa. Then you'll be protected. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane [SB 9.4.18]. This is the process. Otherwise kāraṇaṁ guṇa... As soon as you infect with jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-sthāḥ [Bg. 14.18], then you'll... There are many place... Mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimukteḥ [SB 5.5.2]. If you want to be liberated, then mahat-sevā---you have to associate with mahat, mahātmā, not durātmā. Mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimuktes tamo-dvāraṁ yoṣitāṁ saṅgi-saṅgam. If we become infected with yoṣitāṁ saṅgi-saṅgam, then focus will be... Therefore these centers are being opened = "Come here. Live with Vaiṣṇavas. We are always engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Even if you do not like, by their association you'll do it. Then you'll be purified." Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. "If you are practiced to drink tea and smoke, in our association you'll have to give it up because there is no supply of tea or smoking, meat-eating. Naturally you'll have to give it up." Therefore sādhu-saṅga required. Who is sādhu? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. Sa mantavyaḥ. He's sādhu. Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. Here you'll find they have no other business, simply Kṛṣṇa bhajana. So if you associate, you'll also do. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ [Bg. 2.62]. As we associate, then we develop the mind. And from the very beginning, if you want to become a paramahaṁsa, above all rules and regulations, that will not help.

Indian man (1): Perhaps his doubt was whether he can do kṛṣṇa-japa while remaining in gṛhastha...

Prabhupāda: Who says no?

Indian man (1): That was his doubt, I think, isn't it?

Indian man (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31]. Do that. Where is the loss? You gain. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (1): Because he must be attending office and all that, so...

Prabhupāda: Then he'll not require. If he's in office...

Indian man (1): He didn't want to change his clothes.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That...

Indian man (1): He can do japa

Prabhupāda: No, no. It doesn't matter. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa always, the medicine is there already. Then it will rectify you automatically. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is the loss? It is open for everyone. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva. Especially in this age it is very difficult to... But if you take to this harer nāma, then gradually ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Everything will be cleansed within your heart and you'll understand. You take to this immediately. [pause] Somebody is giving prasādam?

Satsvarūpa: There's regular distribution.

Prabhupāda: Oh, go and...

Satsvarūpa: Yes, everyone is taking

Prabhupāda: Go and take prasādam. Prasāde sarva-duḥkhānāṁ hānir asyopajāyate [Bg. 2.65]. Our propaganda is, "Please come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam." That's all. Is that very difficult task?

Indian man (3): Whether the scriptures have real potency?

Prabhupāda: Yes. All scripture has got. And we are having our members' building and library; you can come and read. We are trying to give you all facility. You take it and be perfect.

Indian man (4): Bhagavad-gītā was a distinct... Before, Śaṅkarācārya had another. Bhagavad-gītā was distinctly personal, antaryāmī gurudeva[?].

Prabhupāda: So you have no intelligence to understand it? What is that? The same verse. [aside:] Read Bhagavad-gītā, Fourth Chapter.

Pradyumna: Fourth Chapter? Śrī bhagavān uvāca? Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1].

Prabhupāda: Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam: "I spoke this Bhagavad-gītā to the sun-god." So Bhagavad-gītā was spoken when Śaṅkarācārya's father's father was not born. Now understand it? At least forty millions of years ago. At least. So how do you say that before? You read Bhagavad-gītā. Everything is there.

Indian man (4): But they do not take it in such a...

Prabhupāda: They may be rascal. Why you should become rascal?

Indian man (4): They are rascal.

Prabhupāda: There it is written, the document. They may be rascals, but why you become rascal, following the rascals? You are following not Kṛṣṇa; you are following another rascal. Why? That is your misfortune. Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. He says. You do not take Kṛṣṇa, you take another rascal. Then how you can be helped? Kṛṣṇa says, the speaker of Bhagavad-gītā, that "I told him," and you do not take it. You take another rascal. Then who will guide you? You remain rascal. What can be done? Śaṅkarācārya may be seventeen hundred years. Buddha is two hundred and fifty. And Bhagavad-gītā, five thousand years ago, this Bhagavad-gītā. And before that, puruṣa, forty millions of years ago. If you don't believe Bhagavad-gītā, then don't talk of Bhagavad-gītā. You talk of Śaṅkarācārya, Sunātha[?], this... That is another thing. But if you talk of Bhagavad-gītā, it is stated there. People have misguided people in such a way that we are finding very difficult to reform them. But things are there. We have no difficulty. You do not accept---all right, you do your own business; let me do my business. We cannot make any compromise because some rascal has said something. That is not possible. We have to follow Kṛṣṇa. That's all. This is Kṛṣṇa conscious. What is the wrong there if you strictly follow Kṛṣṇa? Mr. Pandiya, what is the wrong there?

Mr. Pandiya: At the present days, sir, people do not go through either Gītā or Bhāgavata. They read some commentator. Then they get some doubt.

Prabhupāda: So if they willfully become misled, then who can check it?

Indian man (5): He should hear it from sādhu, not from the other places.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (6): [indistinct] They have read other books written by other masters.

Prabhupāda: That is our misfortune. Mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Kṛṣṇa is personally speaking, but the mūḍhas and narādhamas, they will not hear to Kṛṣṇa. They have been described... Those who do not hear from Kṛṣṇa or His representative, they have been described, duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ narādhamāḥ: "Most sinful, rascals, mūḍha, gādhā, and lowest of the mankind." This is their position. It is not my manufacture. It is Kṛṣṇa's... Find out this, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. "No, there are so many educated..." Māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ. Why? Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. These rascals have taken = "Why shall I hear Kṛṣṇa? Why shall I accept Kṛṣṇa as God?" Āsuri-bhāvam. This is the basic principle of defect. Hmm?

Pradyumna:

Prabhupāda: Āsuram. This is the defect. "Why shall I hear Kṛṣṇa? Oh, here is a big politician. He is commenting." Just see. What is this? For the big politicians you sacrifice Kṛṣṇa? In the beginning you are finished. Then how you'll make progress?

Indian man (2): Politician is wrong.

Prabhupāda: They'll prefer, because to hear Kṛṣṇa is difficult. They'll accept some rascal who will make meaning here and there. That is...

Indian man (7): Can anything be called religion without devotion? Can anything be called religion...

Prabhupāda: First of all we must understand what do you mean by religion. First of all let me know. What do you mean by religion? Hmm? Religion means, according to Vedic śāstra, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19] = "Religion means the law given by God." It is very simple. But is you do not know what is God, and if you do not know what law He has given, then where is religion? This is cheating. Just like law means the principle or the regulation given by the state, by the government. That is law. Not that you manufacture some law at your home, as it is going on---yato mata tato patha---you manufacture something, rascal law, and that becomes a religion. That is not religion. Religion means the law given by God, simple law. So if you do not know what is God and if you do not know what law He has given, then where is your religion? There is no religion. Without understanding of God and without understanding of the law as given by God, then there is no religion. That is cheating in the name of religion. Therefore in the Bhāgavata, from the very beginning it is said, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ vedyaṁ vāstavam atra [SB 1.1.2] = "Real religion is to be understood here." Real religion is Bhagavān speaking, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam [Bg. 18.66]. This is real religion. If you do not know God, if you do not know how to surrender to God, then where is your religion? If you do not know government, you do not know what is the law of the government, then where is the question of becoming... [break] ...therefore we are misguided. Very simple thing. Kṛṣṇa is God, and He's asking, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. What is that śaraṇaṁ vraja? Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. There is no difficulty. Where is the difficulty? Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.14]. Why don't you follow it? That is religion.

Indian man (7): Sir, what is your idea about people following other religions?

Prabhupāda: Other religion cannot be. Religion is one = God, and what God wants. That is religion. Other religion cannot be. Other law cannot be. Law means which is given by the government. That's all. How there can be other law?

Indian man (7): You see, for example there is now government of India and the government of [indistinct]. The laws are there.

Prabhupāda: That may be. The thing is = the real citizenship is to abide by the law of the government. That is the principle. But even if you say that government of India is different from..., the principle is the same. Government means to rule over. Rule over.

Indian man (7): I may not have expressed myself correctly. What I meant was...

Prabhupāda: No, no, government means who is controlling the activities of the citizens. That's all. That is everywhere the same. There may be little difference in the formula, but the principle is the same, that there is a controller and citizens following that controlling rules. Then it is good government. So similarly, the supreme government---there is God, and He has His rules and regulations---if you follow, then you are religious. And God cannot be two. God is one. Otherwise how He is God? If God has competition, then He's not God. [chuckles]

Indian man (2): Yes. [chuckling] Except for Kṛṣṇa, no other order is told even. What śāstra says...

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. If you don't accept Kṛṣṇa as God, that is your business. But Kṛṣṇa is God. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. Īśvara, god... There are many gods, but the Supreme God is Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (1): The whole problem... We have not read Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So now read it. No, it is better late than never. You have never read Bhagavad-gītā; now read it. The movement is there for this purpose. Now read it.

Indian man (8): The simple version is there also for a layman like us who do not know?

Prabhupāda: Even layman. If you offer your obeisances to God, it does it require any...?

Indian man (8): I don't mean, sir. I mean about Bhagavad-gītā, the book. It is readable version, I mean? We don't know Sanskrit, for example.

Prabhupāda: It is explained in English.

Indian man (8): Ah, that is what I want.

Indian man (1): It has been translated into fifteen languages.

Prabhupāda: Yes. These are all Bhagavad-gītā, different languages. We have translated into Chinese, Japanese, all European languages---Spanish, Portugal, Dutch, Swedish, Italian. They are accepting it. This is the process to know = chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. The whole world is chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. We are known as "Hare Kṛṣṇas." [aside:] You read another verse aloud = māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena sevate.

Pradyumna:

Prabhupāda: Just like there is infection, and if you take a vaccine, then it will not infect, the contaminous disease. Similarly, if you take to bhakti-yoga, then you'll not be infected by these three guṇas. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya. You'll remain immune. This bhakti-yoga... Māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena. Not vyabhicāreṇa; avyabhicāreṇa. Then you'll remain above the qualities---transcendental. This is bhakti-yoga. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām [Bg. 9.14]. If you cannot do anything, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours. Bās. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma... You remain on the brahma stage. [pause---kīrtana in background]

Satsvarūpa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. Prasādam. Give them prasādam.

Satsvarūpa: Come and take prasādam, everyone.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Jaya.

Satsvarūpa: There is prasādam. If everyone can come.

Prabhupāda: [Bengali]

Indian man (9): [Bengali] I was told by the [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Who?

Indian man (10): No, this is program.

Indian man (9): [indistinct] He wanted to just come tomorrow.

Prabhupāda: So...

Satsvarūpa: There is invitation?

Indian man (9): Yes, I have given lots of times.

Satsvarūpa: We have to discuss it, 'cause there are so many already.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Satsvarūpa: There are invitations already. We have to make a program, a schedule.

Prabhupāda: How far it is?

Indian man (10): It is not even half kilometer.

Indian man (9): In this village. In this [indistinct] village.

Prabhupāda: There is road?

Indian man (9): Yes.

Prabhupāda: So we can go.

Satsvarūpa: You're already going tomorrow.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Satsvarūpa: That man who came, who you were supposed to go on the 26th, and he was changed.

Prabhupāda: Oh. The same program?

Indian man (9): Yes. The same program also.

Satsvarūpa: You were recently initiated?

Indian man (9): Yes.

Satsvarūpa: Oh. That's the same program. So that is already fixed with Gaura-Govinda. You spoke with him, Gaura-Govinda Mahārāja?

Indian man (9): Yes.

Prabhupāda: I take my lunch at half past one. So by that time... [break] [end]