Morning Walk , Bhubaneswar , 1977-01-24

Prabhupāda: Gurukṛpa Mahārāja, what is the benefit of this modern education?

Gurukṛpa: No benefit. It makes them an ass.

Prabhupāda: Making them demons, that's all.

Gurukṛpa: They become puffed-up, thinking they know something. They don't know anything.

Prabhupāda: Not only that; modern educated youths, they are not inclined to come to the farm. So they're giving up their own father's property, farm. They do not come back from city. The farmers' children go to cities for education, and after so-called education the rascals do not come. Here also and in your country also, America and... They want city life and enjoy restaurant and prostitute.

Satsvarūpa: There is a song, "How are you going to keep them on the farm after they've seen Paris?" They don't want to go back.

Prabhupāda: Ah. So much land sitting. Huge land is lying vacant, and they are complaining, "Orissa is poor. Please..." Why poor? Why don't you work? You must remain poor. You do not produce your food. Kuyoginaṁ kuśam upaiti lakṣmī[?]. If you work hard, Lakṣmī will come. Our institution is working so hard, all our devotees; therefore we have no scarcity. We are not bābājīs, taking a mālā and smoking biḍi. "I do not go beyond Vṛndāvana." Rascal, loitering and associating with so many women, and they have become puffed-up, paramahaṁsas, Rūpa Gosvāmī, imitation Rūpa Gosvāmī. Only a loincloth of Rūpa Gosvāmī. No education, no book writing, no going out of Vṛndāvana---begging. And therefore government's capturing them and giving this injection... What is that?

Gurukṛpa: Sterilization.

Prabhupāda: Sterilization. Yes, just see. So many illegal children are born by these women. Bhajana. Bhajana kara. One bābājī has at least three women, four women. That's all.

Hari-śauri: Like monkeys.

Prabhupāda: Like monkeys, yes. Markaṭa-vairāgya. [break] And they are living very rich. And if you make big, big cities without industry, cities cannot be maintained. You'll require so many instruments, machine. That means you require [indistinct]. If you require food, there is no need of industry.

Satsvarūpa: I remember in school seeing films of India, and they would say, "This is very backward. They're living as they used to live hundreds of years ago by using the ox and the plow."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we have, hundred years after, we have learned how to kill ox and bulls. That is your advancement. And kill your own children also. Rascal civilization. They say like that = "primitive." I was talking with a priest in Australia. So he said, "This civilization you are suggesting, this is primitive." Do they call it primitive?

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And what is the wrong with the primitive?

Satsvarūpa: They think it's shocking that the way they used to live hundreds of years ago, they're still living. But in America...

Prabhupāda: So what improvement you have done, rascal?

Satsvarūpa: Motorcars, roads, buildings.

Prabhupāda: So what is benefit of motorcar?

Satsvarūpa: No benefit.

Prabhupāda: Motorcar benefit means you have to start big, big industries and neglect farming.

Gurukṛpa: In America they can say, "We have enough food. We are not short of food."

Prabhupāda: We are not thinking "we have." We are thinking how the human society is having.

Satsvarūpa: Well, they say "Let everyone help himself. We've taken care of ourselves."

Prabhupāda: But why not you? What is your humanity?

Gurukṛpa: So they say, "We work hard, and then they, they sit back."

Prabhupāda: So why do you make...? Who...? Who do you mean by "we"? It is, everything, belonging to Kṛṣṇa. You have plundered Kṛṣṇa's property. You won't allow others to come in. The Chinese, the Indians, they are congested. Why? What do you mean by "we"? It is your father's property? You have stolen Kṛṣṇa's property.

Gurukṛpa: One may say, "But I myself work hard. Should I support the man who is lazy, doing nothing? Some are lazy. Should I work hard?"

Prabhupāda: Well, that is... If you are humanitarian, you are working for humanity, and why don't you teach them? Why do you not give the opportunity. What is the missionary? You have got so many missionaries. Why don't you feed them by giving them opportunity? They want. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. That is Vaiṣṇava. Engage everything, everyone, to good work. That is missionary. "We, you..." There is no such question, "we." We combining together, that is "we." We are all Kṛṣṇa's sons. Harer nāma, harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Their whole philosophy is... [aside:] Oh, it is very nice place. All mango trees. Don't think in national terms. That is very heinous.

Satsvarūpa: There is one book on modern religions, and he discusses yourself, Your Divine Grace, on one page, and he says that your politics are naive. He said, "It is naive, too innocent to think that we can unite the world this way under God."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: "But it's very complex situation that has to be dealt with."

Prabhupāda: Then why you are trying United Nation, rascal? It may be complex, but we must try for it in the proper way. That is humanity. Why you are attempting United Nation? You know it is complex. But you do not know how to unite. This is my position. Unite on Kṛṣṇa center. Then you'll be successful. You are already trying for uniting, unity, but you do not know how to unite.

Satsvarūpa: Just like you say there has to be a universal center.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: So if it's complex, at least we have to start with a universal center.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, you can. We... It is already there, United Nation Organization, UNO. So take the ideas. Why you are thinking of... What is that? WHO. World Organization or..., health?

Hari-śauri: World Health Organization.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Why you are trying for? Simply make a show? You are thinking already, but you do not know. Your world is your father, mother and two sisters, that's all. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tridhātuke svā-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu [SB 10.84.13]. That is your world. A little family, a little community, that is your world. We do not think in that way. We include even the animals, trees, plants---brothers. That is our philosophy. We feel. When you cut a tree unnecessarily, we feel. This is our feeling. Unless there is absolute necessity, we do not wish to kill even a tree, what to speak of animals. When in our Bombay the coconut trees were being cut, I was feeling actually = "Why unnecessarily the coconut trees...?" You cannot give anyone life, so how, what is living, you can kill? It may be tree or animal or plant. You cannot give him life. So you have to suffer for this. [pause]

Gargamuni: [at zoological gardens] Can we go inside?

Satsvarūpa: He said it was open in the morning.

Gargamuni: See if we can go inside. [break]

Prabhupāda: I was going to purchase ticket, Bombay[?]. He said, "No, you don't go. That's it."

Bhāgavata: Then there is a lake over here, and there is animals, birds, different types of birds.

Prabhupāda: Oh, zoological.

Bhāgavata: Yes, zoological. All types. And on this side they have the lions, tigers, bears... [break]

Prabhupāda: ...the forest and see actually. [laughter] Hare Kṛṣṇa. In Africa they're open.

Bhāgavata: Yes, in that national park in Nairobi.

Prabhupāda: The dog also knows that he's in the cage.

Bhāgavata: This is an Indian lion, from India. They have captured in India. And they also have African lions in here.

Gurukṛpa: Gujarati. It's a Gujarati.

Bhāgavata: From the forest of Katawan[?]. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...monkey and cow. Rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa, sattva-guṇa. Lion in the rajo-guṇa, monkey in the tamo-guṇa and cow in the sattva-guṇa.

Hari-śauri: What about the cows that they slaughter? Do they have to continue in a cow birth?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhāgavata: These are African lions.

Prabhupāda: Oh. They are bigger?

Bhāgavata: Little different species. Different color. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [lion growls]

Satsvarūpa: Don't tease him.

Prabhupāda: No, don't tease him. After all, they are lion. Hmm, they are bigger, very big. Here there is cubs?

Bhāgavata: Inside there are cubs.

Prabhupāda: So, we shall go this way or return?

Bhāgavata: No. This way there is more, if you like.

Prabhupāda: There is more... [break] ...then attacking themselves.

Hari-śauri: Not cannibals.

Bhāgavata: This way you will see birds, many different types of birds.

Hari-śauri: They turned one of the stately homes in England into a lion reserve. You can drive through, and the lions come and jump on your car.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jumping on the car?

Hari-śauri: Yeah. Sometimes they do.

Satsvarūpa: The bird isn't powerful, but he can fly away from the lion. He can fly away from the lion, but he's not powerful.

Prabhupāda: Fly away?

Satsvarūpa: Kṛṣṇa has made him that he has some other kind of defense.

Prabhupāda: What kind of defense?

Satsvarūpa: He can fly away if a lion comes. You were teaching that each species has some kind of potent..., special...

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunam. One can protect himself from bhaya, cause of fearfulness. They are given food?

Bhāgavata: Yes, they give the animals food.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: What does he say?

Bhāgavata: He said we have to... Now the ticket office is open. [laughs] This is an owl. You want to see the lake?

Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] The lion... What is called? Lance? Lance?

Satsvarūpa: Yes, spear.

Prabhupāda: They are afraid. If you have got lance, they will not attack you.

Bhāgavata: In Africa there is one tribe. They are very powerful. They are called the Masai. And with one spear they know how to kill the lion, with one throw only.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Bhāgavata: They are very expert.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And they also know. If you have got lance in hand, they will not attack.

Bhāgavata: It is a custom that if they want to marry, first they must kill one lion with a spear. Then they can..., considered man for marriage, qualified.

Prabhupāda: Just see. [laughs] Kṣatriya spirit. Kṣatriya spirit. Just qualify yourself, then you marry.

Bhāgavata: [laughing] Gargamuni Mahārāja says we should introduce this in ISKCON.

Gargamuni: Then there'll be no marriage. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...of kṣatriya. Kṣatriya girls were not married so easily. There were so many competitors. You know Rukmiṇī, rukmiṇī-haraṇa? Kṛṣṇa had to fight. Without fighting there was no marriage.

Hari-śauri: Now we have fighting after marriage. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: Fight your wife, not with a lion. Poor woman, helpless---no father, no husband, no son. This is the civilization. They are forlorn, and they are forced to take the profession of... What is that? What is that advertisement? Forget. Upper and down...? What is that?

Hari-śauri: Topless, bottomless.

Prabhupāda: Topless, bottomless.

Bhāgavata: They are forced to dancing halls.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Obliged. [break] ...no means, either welfare or topless dance. No father, no son, no husband. That's civilization? Rascal civilization. Huh? They should be given protection. This is Vedic civilization. Na strīya svātantryam arha... They must be given. Like children, they must be given protection. No protection. No father. Father-mother divorce. She is alone. Then no husband, no children. What is this civilization? Always helpless. I have seen so many old women feeling helpless. Yes. Oh, yes.

Hari-śauri: Oh, yes. They stick them in a home now.

Prabhupāda: Nothing. And on account of their helplessness, these rascals are enjoying = "Come here in the club, in the shop." Advertise, "Topless, bottomless." This is going on. And they claim to be civilized.

Hari-śauri: Women's liberation.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: Hmm? What does he say?

Bhāgavata: It is all right.

Hari-śauri: You said in that article in the BTG that women's liberation means that they get more exploited.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then they giving them bluff, that "You become liberated" means "We shall exploit you, young girls." This is the idea behind. Because the karmīs, they want sex, young girls, and they get energy to work. The Europeans, Americans, they work so hard. They get energy from new, new girls. This is psychology. Therefore they work like hogs and dogs. Dog civilization, hog civilization. Because the hog has no restriction---either mother, sister or anyone, "Come on." Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājām..., kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. This civilization is for the hogs, to take energy by sex with mother, sister and anyone, and work hard. It is stated in the Bhāgavata. I have not manufactured. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. And here is the civilization. Tapo divyam. Be brahmacārī, undergo austerities and rectify your, this conditioned life, birth and death. This is human civilization. Why you are under birth and death? One life remain brahmacārī and solve all the question. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. Teach them, these rascals---they are accusing "brainwashing"---that this is civilization. It is not civilization to work hard like hogs and dogs and have sex enjoyment. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Bhāgavata: Here is a restaurant, and they're selling meat. On the one hand they're supposed to be protecting the animal, and on the other hand they are slaughtering and feeding people meat.

Prabhupāda: Protect the animal? This is not protecting. This is another slaughterhouse.

Hari-śauri: This is slow slaughter.

Prabhupāda: Slow slaughter. They have no independence. [laughs] This is not protection.

Hari-śauri: This is prison.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is prison.

Bhāgavata: There's cottages here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, where you can live right on the lake. Very beautiful place.

Prabhupāda: How many days? Three days?

Bhāgavata: Up to seven days, I think.

Prabhupāda: Seven days.

Bhāgavata: And this is very large birds, bird sanctuary.

Prabhupāda: Crane.

Gurukṛpa: It's pelicans. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...in the forest. In the park.

Satsvarūpa: They were not even in cages. I met an Indian man on the plane coming here, and I was speaking on the Bhagavad-gītā. I was saying that "In your next life a person could become an animal." He said, "No. The Bhagavad-gītā teaches if you come to human life, then you don't be reborn lower." I asked him to show me a verse. He didn't know.

Prabhupāda: "Then why you are talking like rascal?" You should have said like that.

Satsvarūpa: He said, "I know Bhagavad-gītā, and my father and all our relatives, we all study Bhagavad-gītā." But he couldn't...

Prabhupāda: "And you do not know anything." [laughter] What is the use of? So we shall go further? No.

Bhāgavata: Would you like to return?

Prabhupāda: No, we shall go. The, what is called, evolution theory, Darwin said they take from monkey. But they do not know wherefrom the monkey comes. Does he give it chronologically?

Satsvarūpa: No. They say that both humans and monkeys come from a common ancestor. But they don't know what that is.

Prabhupāda: Who was your ancestor? [laughter]

Gurukṛpa: Neanderthal.

Prabhupāda: Jalajā nava-lakṣāni sthāvarā lakṣa-vimśati. There is chronological order followed = first of all aquatics, then trees and plants, then insects, then reptiles, and in this way, then birds, then beast, then human being. Which way? This? No.

Bhāgavata: If you want to go out, this way. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...it from Padma Purāṇa, and he has explained in his own imagination. The idea has been taken from Padma Purāṇa, because the Padma Purāṇa, it is already there, evolution. Asatiṁ caturaṁś caiva. Eighty-four lakṣa means hundred thousand, 8,400,000. That is also given. Where is that, that Darwin's theory?

Bhāgavata: They have no number of species.

Prabhupāda: Imperfect idea. He wanted to credit himself. He has stolen the idea from Padma Purāṇa and wanted to explain in his own way, imagination, speculation.

Bhāgavata: The actual evolution is that the soul goes...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhāgavata: ...from the species, from one species to another in chronological order.

Gurukṛpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, even if they... In all their researches, if they came across this information, I don't think they would reveal it to the world.

Prabhupāda: How they would reveal? They are just thieves and rogues. Their idea is = three thousand years ago there was no civilization. This is their poor idea.

Bhāgavata: [break] I was speaking with him. He's an Indian here in Bhubaneswar. He said Vyāsa could not have written the Vedas five thousand years ago because writing did not start till 2,500 years ago. I said, "What is your proof?" He said, "Because we can see in the caves the markings, and these things did not come till 2,500 years ago." I said, "Do you think Vyāsa was a caveman, that he was banging on the walls with hammers?" So I said, "He is a great professor." He said, "No, no." He said, "Actually Vyāsa is not even a person. He's only a school." So I said, "Well, you do not understand." These are very atheistic type of people. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...taking Bhagavad-gītā as some imaginary writing, a school, thinking that.

Satsvarūpa: "A work of many hands," they say.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: "Not one author."

Prabhupāda: They do not take it that Kṛṣṇa is God and He's speaking. They do not believe. "God is imperson."

Bhāgavata: His only proof was carbon dating, and that carbon dating has already been proven wrong so many times.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Gurukṛpa: Can prajāpatis give birth to different species of animal life from their own bodies?

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes.

Satsvarūpa: Prajāpatis, humans, they give birth to animals in the beginning.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Crocodile.

[break] [in car]

...topless, is that freedom for the woman? The shop is open from ten to four a.m. I have seen the signboard in Texas. Is that freedom for the woman? They have no means of livelihood, and they come.

Satsvarūpa: But those women who advocate woman's liberation, they also say that that is not freedom for women, that the men are using the women.

Prabhupāda: Not only that, I have seen that if one woman is speaking... He was sitting. I am going, "Oh, she has got a husband." Immediately I studied all this, this happening of her life. She was... She became very surprised that he's, her friend had a husband.

Gurukṛpa: Thing is that the marriages are simply based on sex. Therefore the marriages don't last long.

Prabhupāda: That means they want permanent husband---that is their heart's desire---but no husband. Is that civilization? And here the father's duty is that "Before she attains puberty, let me find out husband, suitable." This is civilization. And "She was under my care, I give in charity to a suitable boy = 'My dear boy, you take charge of this girl. I give you some dowry and decorated the girl. Be happy.' "

Satsvarūpa: They criticize this in ISKCON, that the leaders pick out husband and wife.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Satsvarūpa: And that they're not allowed to mix freely. They say, "Well how do you know who you want to marry unless you can mix with that person?"

Prabhupāda: There is no question of "how do you want?" You require, and the parents is the best selector. It is not the question, "How do you like?" It is the guardians' duty to find out a suitable husband or a suitable wife. Nowadays the boys and girls, they do not take parents' guidance, and they are not happy.

Hari-śauri: The thing is the parents are not qualified to give any guidance any more either.

Prabhupāda: Qualified, that is not very difficult. For the girl, find out a boy who is hard worker or a little educated. Bās. That's all. That was the selection. Then fortune. You give a daughter under the care of the boy who can work hard. That's all. Then they will earn their livelihood. Even there is no education, a hard worker will do. A boy, as soon as has got the sense that "I have got a wife to maintain," he'll work. That is impetus to give him to work for the family. And if a boy gets wife or woman without any hard working, then why he should marry? And if he has got responsibility, that "I have to maintain my wife; then I can enjoy," then he becomes responsible. [pause] Wooden bridge?

Gurukṛpa: Yeah. That is like Australia. That is Australia.

Prabhupāda: Australia?

Gurukṛpa: Yes, the whole country is...

Prabhupāda: Wooden bridge.

Gurukṛpa: ...roads like this. Just in Melbourne and Sydney, nice roads. I think I saw better roads in India. I was very surprised.

Prabhupāda: Thing is, they do not know engineering. They have no business. [break]

Satsvarūpa: The modern young person thinks, "I don't want someone to tell me the truth. I don't want someone to pick out who my husband or wife is. I want to be free to experiment and find out for myself. Then I'll know."

Prabhupāda: But where is your freedom?

Satsvarūpa: That I don't have someone to tell me what to do. I will learn by my own experience.

Prabhupāda: Then why do you go to school? Huh?

Satsvarūpa: Well, nowadays school also, they don't think that the professor is like their guru.

Prabhupāda: After all, the parents send the children to school to learn. Why not freedom?

Satsvarūpa: Yes. That's a good argument.

Prabhupāda: When you go in your childhood on the street, why the father does not give you freedom? You'll... You get freedom to die, and the parents takes your freedom to save. So which is better, to die or to be saved?

Satsvarūpa: To be saved.

Prabhupāda: So then?

Satsvarūpa: But I need their help when I'm a child. But when I'm sixteen years old, then I...

Prabhupāda: But after all, you had no freedom. Similarly, you are still child because you are speaking like a child.

Hari-śauri: Their conception of freedom is very limited.

Prabhupāda: There is no freedom. Where is freedom? You have to die. Where is your freedom? You don't like to die, but you have to die.

Gurukṛpa: They used to have a slogan, all the hippies = "When I have to die, I'm the one that has to die. So let me live my life the way I want to."

Prabhupāda: What is that? "When I have to die"?

Gurukṛpa: "I have to experience it. Therefore let me live the way I want to. When it's time for me to die, it's my death."

Prabhupāda: But when there is warning of death, why do you fly? You have to die, but when there is warning of death, why you fly? [laughter] Rascal, why you fly? That means you do not want to die. You give this slogan, that "When there is warning of death, why do you fly? You have to die." [laughter] It is a rascal civilization, that's all. Western civilization is a rascal civilization. I do not take they are civilized even. No. White aborigines. That's all. [break] ...Mahāprabhu says, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra. In other countries there is no civilization. In India there is civilization. Just you become civilized and distribute this knowledge.

bhārata bhūmite haile manuṣya janma jāra
janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra

[Cc. Ādi 9.41]

This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that para upakara. They do not know what is civilization. Such broader idea of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He never said that "Sit down in Vṛndāvana and become a bābājī." Kara para upakara. That is saṅkīrtana.

abaddha-karuṇā-sindhu katiha mohan
brahmāra durlabha prema nitāi kare dāna

This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's preaching. Karuṇā-sindhu, the ocean of mercy, it was blocked. Let it be opened, and distribute throughout the whole world. So if you work vigorously, this is an epoch-making history, how real culture is being distributed for the benefit of the whole human society. They'll realize. What do you think? Eh?

Satsvarūpa: Yes, we have to do it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Human life is denied the advantage of this life. Hari hari biphale janama goṅāinu. Simply wasting time by sense gratification, for sense gratification. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma yad indriya-prītaya āpṛnoti na sādhu manye... [SB 5.5.4]. "Oh, this is not civilization." Yata ātmano 'yam asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ: "You are going to get again body. You are suffering so much still. That's your plan? Who is happy who has got a material body? Who is happy? Find out. And still, you are going to get another material body? Is that civilization?" Na sādhu manye. "It is not good. Don't work hard for getting another body." This is Vedic civilization. Na sādhu manye: "Oh, it is not good." Sādhu means good. "Why it is not? We are enjoying." Not enjoying. You are going to get another body. "So what is the harm if I get one more body?" Now, kleśada: "You'll simply suffer as soon as you get body." Kleśada. More material body means kleśada, to be prepared for suffering. That they do not know. They are thinking, "enjoying." This is māyā. He's preparing for another suffering condition, and he's thinking, "I am enjoying." This is...

Gurukṛpa: Māyā.

Prabhupāda: This is māyā, "what is not." He has to work for not to get any more material body, but he's working for that. [end]