Conversation During Massage , Bhubaneswar , 1977-01-23

Gargamuni: ...against the village people, and they harass the workers after working hours. So Jayapatāka said he was going to get the police there to watch.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bring police, and in the presence of police go on working. And if he disturbs, kill him. That's all. Sate sarthaṁ samācaret.

Gargamuni: He's a big demon.

Prabhupāda: So you become bigger demon. [laughter] [break] Place an application to the district magistrate and take police help. [break]

Brahmānanda: So then they made these sacks.

Gargamuni: Actually there was...

Brahmānanda: They put cloth there. Then he tore it all down.

Gargamuni: There was no harm. Nothing was falling on his land. He was just saying that. [break]

Satsvarūpa: People don't see any other program from us nowadays except that.

Prabhupāda: So you decide amongst yourselves. Majority should be taken.

Satsvarūpa: I know. We'll be doing that at Māyāpur, but we all want to follow what your direction is.

Prabhupāda: So give me detailed statement. I shall... [break] All right.

Hari-śauri: Their ideas run similar, that they wanted to... Their so-called philosophy was that all the working people should be supplied sufficient foodstuffs, and there shouldn't be any capitalism and..., like this.

Prabhupāda: The Gandhi's philosophy is to wipe out the capitalist, Britishers, and his philosophy also, the same.

Satsvarūpa: But one was nonviolent.

Prabhupāda: That is only pretext.

Rāmeśvara: You have already defined violence as "Anything which does not save a man from repeated birth and death, that is violence."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Violence, I take it in this way, that you have got right to possess this. If I do not allow you to possess, that is violent. Somehow or other, I check it, and that is violence.

Hari-śauri: Yes. We have a natural right to understand God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. There is natural right, and they are checking. That is violence. To check one from his rightful position is violence. That is called hiṁsā, that... Kṛṣṇa therefore says, amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā [Bg. 13.8]. You should not check anybody from his natural advancement, his spiritual life. That is ahiṁsā.

Satsvarūpa: What about the platform of just not killing anyone? Is there any credit to that?

Prabhupāda: You are not killed. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: "Who kills and who is killed?"

Satsvarūpa: But, say for political reasons, Stalin would kill.

Prabhupāda: No, that is politics, that.

Satsvarūpa: But Gandhi would say, "No, don't kill because..."

Prabhupāda: Gandhi's a rascal. Therefore he is failure. "In politics there is no violence"---that is another rascaldom.

Rāmeśvara: How has India improved by independence? What is the improvement? They are more godless than ever.

Prabhupāda: No, he... He... When the Hindus approached him that "You have got so much influence over the Muhammadans. Stop cow-killing," he replied, "How can I stop their cow-killing? It is their religion." Just see. He accepted something as religion which is killing. He's such a rascal.

Hari-śauri: And he was nonviolent.

Prabhupāda: He was nonviolent. "In the name of religion, one can kill." This is his philosophy. He was a politician, that's all. And he indulged personally in mercy killing in his āśrama. One calf was suffering, and he asked, "Kill him. He's very much suffering." Mercy killing. He was a rascal. But we don't say publicly, because he is very much... Sometimes we say.

Hari-śauri: [laughs] Sometimes.

Prabhupāda: What he...? He's not qualified man.

Rāmeśvara: This past year Russia sponsored a war in Africa, Angola. [aside:] Is it Africa or South America? It's Africa, Angola? The Russians sponsored one war. They supplied all the money, all the weapons, and they were victorious. They conquered a country through their local Communist party.

Prabhupāda: Which is?

Rāmeśvara: It's called Angola. And the Americans were trying to support the opposing side. But the public in America has got such a bad taste from Vietnam that they became what they call isolationist.

Prabhupāda: They have become hopelessly, what is called, unsuccessful in Vietnam.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. So they're very, very reluctant. So they withdrew public support, and the government had to withdraw, and the country was lost.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: America, it seems, is becoming very weak.

Prabhupāda: Means if they have got strength, if they have got strength they can attack Russia. I've said that. But they have no moral strength. Drunkard, illicit sex, they have no mental determination. Cannot.

Rāmeśvara: They are thinking, "Why should we get involved in fighting miles away..."

Prabhupāda: That is another laziness. For good cause one should.

Rāmeśvara: They are thinking, "What if the people want to be Communist? Why should we interfere?"

Prabhupāda: That means cowardice. They have no conviction that Communism is dangerous, godlessness.

Rāmeśvara: They are forgetting how dangerous it is.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: Now they have a policy called detente, where... It means that they try to become friendly with the Russians and do exchanges and...

Prabhupāda: All economic.

Rāmeśvara: To ease the tension.

Prabhupāda: Pound, shilling, pence = "Money. Bring money."

Rāmeśvara: Yes. But actually the Russians have so much cheated that...

Prabhupāda: They must cheat, because they are first-class rogue.

Hari-śauri: Actually, what's happened is that America has given away...

Prabhupāda: I hesitate to say "they." The Russian people are nice.

Hari-śauri: The Communist Party.

Prabhupāda: The Party is dangerous. I've studied the Russians. They are nice.

Rāmeśvara: Victimized.

Prabhupāda: Yes, victimized. They have been suppressed by force, terrorism. Otherwise nice Russian people are as good as others. And they do not like this government. That's a fact. But what can be done? They are forced to accept. Nobody is happy. Everyone is morose.

Hari-śauri: Yes. They're all afraid to speak.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No freedom.

Rāmeśvara: No intellectual freedom.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: That's very well known.

Prabhupāda: No, even physical. You cannot go out without government consent. And they don't allow, especially young men. They do not allow to go out of the country.

Rāmeśvara: No, I was reading to you that if they apply for leaving the country, then immediately there is a long delay.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: But during that delay they are forced to lose their job, so they have no income. Then people from outside Russia who are sympathizers start to send money, and the government takes sixty-five percent of it in taxes before the people can get it. So they torture them if they want to leave.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Terrorism. Very dangerous. Now it is published in the paper how they exploit the people. And our India also thinking in terms of Russian philosophy. Lenin's philosophy.

Hari-śauri: They're not so successful here, though. The people are too pious to accept Communist philosophy so much here.

Prabhupāda: Hmm, yes. It will be difficult here.

Hari-śauri: They've been trying for years, but they haven't made much ground.

Prabhupāda: No.

Hari-śauri: We've made a lot more impression than they have.

Prabhupāda: They are making... Therefore I was saying the Russians, they have made a propaganda to show, but nobody purchases their literature. Nobody purchases, either educated or uneducated. Maybe few interested. But they are making vigorous propaganda to spread their literature. They have been unsuccessful.

Rāmeśvara: No one believes it. Whatever they write, no one believes that it is the truth.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So their opening a showroom is one of the item of their propaganda. But we cannot make that, make an experiment. No. That is not possible.

Rāmeśvara: It is commonly known that the Russians are spending more money on national defense, weapons...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: ...guns, than anyone else in the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: They are building up huge arsenals of weapons.

Prabhupāda: That is their only business. Plunder from everywhere and spend it for their own defense. The Jawaharlal Nehru and company, they supported Russia to save themselves from America. Otherwise there was no purpose.

Rāmeśvara: Who?

Hari-śauri: Jawaharlal Nehru.

Prabhupāda: And actually India was saved on account of Russia. During the Pakistan and Hindustan fight, there was ninety percent chance that America will openly take part with the Pakistan. And because the Russians were there, seen in the Indian Ocean---they have come with their warfare materials---the Americans stopped, that "It is going to be great conflict." Otherwise that was the chance to take over India by the Pakistanis with American help. That was the plan. That is a great achievement of Indira Gandhi, that he, tactfully showing herself in the side of Russia, he separated Bangladesh from Pakistan, and Pakistan is physically finished, that great achievement, separated Bangladesh. Now Pakistan has no value.

Hari-śauri: Pakistan is finished.

Prabhupāda: Pakistan is finished. Because the Bangladesh was supplying jute, rice, pān---great business.

Rāmeśvara: The government of Bangladesh was just murdered.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: They were all murdered.

Prabhupāda: It is due to this American CIA. Therefore I...

Rāmeśvara: Now they may again become lined up with Pakistan.

Prabhupāda: That is politics. Once you become strong; once I become... That is struggle. It will go on. You cannot stop.

Rāmeśvara: It's also commonly known that in the West the banks supplied money to Lenin to fight his revolution. They have no discrimination. If it seems like it is a good chance for making interest...

Prabhupāda: Therefore Hitler killed these Jews. They were financing against Germany. Otherwise he had no enmity with the Jews.

Hari-śauri: Yes. They were controlling the economy. That was his one thing.

Prabhupāda: And they were supplying. They want interest money---"Never mind against our country." Therefore Hitler decided, "Kill all the Jews."

Rāmeśvara: These banks in the West, they supported Lenin. They made it possible to finance his revolution.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They have got money. The Jews have got money. They want to invest and get some profit. Their only interest is how to get money---no nationalism, no religion, nothing of the sort. Therefore... It is not now; long, long ago. Therefore Shakespeare wrote "Shylock the Jew."

Hari-śauri: Yes. "Shylock."

Prabhupāda: "One pound of flesh." The Jews were criticized long, long ago.

Hari-śauri: They were hated in the Middle Ages.

Rāmeśvara: America now has this policy that they will sell their guns to both sides.

Prabhupāda: That is all right, because they are doing business. So I am shopkeeper; anyone pays, I shall... That is good.

Rāmeśvara: But no discrimination.

Prabhupāda: Why discrimination? I am selling. You come, pay me; I shall give you.

Rāmeśvara: It's dangerous. They are promoting violence.

Prabhupāda: That dangerous in every item. This Gandhi was also dangerous, although superficially nonviolent. Everyone is dangerous. Until one is devotee, he's dangerous in any position. He's dangerous. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ [SB 5.18.12]. It is mental concoction that "This is good," "This is bad." Everything is bad.

Hari-śauri: Part of their policy for that, though, was because they supported the Israelis, and then the Arabs started to squeeze them on the oil, so they had to get friendly with the Arabs again. So they started to supply them arms.

Prabhupāda: They'll have to change, because it is mano-dharma, mental concoction.

Rāmeśvara: Mano-dharma.

Prabhupāda: Mano-dharma means once you accept "good," and next moment you reject it, "bad." This is mano-dharma. So that is going on. And therefore we have taken this vow that "Whatever Kṛṣṇa said, that is good, and everything bad. Bās." Our confusion is finished.

Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? I had a question about the prasādam distribution money that I am hoping to get from the record sales.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: I would like to know if some of it can be used for distributing prasādam in America.

Prabhupāda: Why not?

Rāmeśvara: Say, at Ratha-yātrā time...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Rāmeśvara: ...big parades.

Prabhupāda: But America has money. Here they have no money. So preference should be given in India. They're poor.

Rāmeśvara: We can take a little bit out for these festivals in America.

Prabhupāda: Yes, if required, if required.

Rāmeśvara: If required.

Prabhupāda: Just see. One family came, and I gave them little prasādam, dāl-bhāta only. How nicely they took. Yes.

Hari-śauri: Yes. Dāl and rice.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And they were fully satisfied. So in all our temple at least for ten men, twenty men.

Rāmeśvara: That the temple can support.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: But I'm thinking of, say, a big festival like Ratha-yātrā. They want to distribute prasādam. Maybe we can take a few... Little bit out.

Prabhupāda: Yes, if required. Yes.

Rāmeśvara: If required. That's the point.

Prabhupāda: But this prasādam distribution should be introduced very vigorously.

Satsvarūpa: Then if they say, "You're not doing anything," you can show so easily.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Satsvarūpa: Then if people say, "What is this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement doing?"

Prabhupāda: Don't you see? You have no eyes? Who is publishing these books? If you have education, read it. Simply jumping like monkey is good, do you think? Here is intelligence and appreciation. Do you mean to say...? The monkey is very busy. Who likes that? After all, it is monkey. So your doing something is like jumping of the monkey and dogs. Who likes it? And you are simply creating problem by your so-called busy-ness. Better you stop and read our books and be intelligent. Lazy mischief-maker, it is better than busy mischief-maker. Busy mischief-maker means he'll commit more mischief. Just like monkey = what is the use of his becoming busy? He'll simply create mischief. So better... And lazy mischief-maker is better than the busy mischief-maker.

Rāmeśvara: Maybe you should just read some of those letters.

Satsvarūpa: The note from Svarūpa Dāmodara? This is January 15th. [break]

Prabhupāda: Vaiśyas also. Śūdras also.

Satsvarūpa: You were saying that last night in your talk.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is required. But he must be a Vaiṣṇava. That's all. Actually none of us belong to any group. They are servant of Kṛṣṇa, and for Kṛṣṇa's sake he can act as a brāhmaṇa, as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya or a śūdra. It doesn't matter. It is all Kṛṣṇa's service. Just like he is giving massage. That does not mean he's a śūdra. This is actual śūdra's business, servant. But he's not a śūdra. Similarly, we can act for Kṛṣṇa in any position. We do not belong to this material occupation or platform. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. This is to be dwelled[?] on. He's above all this nonsense. Brahma-bhūyāya means liberated. Jīvan-mukta sa ucyate. Jīvan-mukta means he may act in this life as a kṣatriya, brāhmaṇa, śūdra---it doesn't matter---but he's liberated. He's not going to take birth again. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. A śūdra cannot get that position. So try to understand our philosophy thoroughly and distribute it. Janma sārthaka kari' kara paropakāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. At least nobody can defeat our philosophy in the whole world. That position we have. [pause]

Rāmeśvara: You say that Kṛṣṇa is the same, the devotee is the same and the business of Kṛṣṇa is the same. So...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Advaya-jñāna.

Rāmeśvara: When Kṛṣṇa was here, He was making arrangements for the Pāṇḍavas to rule the kingdom because they were devotees. So that same business is...

Prabhupāda: That is the whole scheme of Kurukṣetra fight---"Wipe out these rascals." Kṛṣṇa was not interested to rule over, but He took the guidance---"Yes, I'll guide you." That's all. What Kṛṣṇa will do with the kingdom? Rāmacandra, He finished Rāvaṇa's whole family, but He has no interest to rule over the... He installed Vibhīṣaṇa---"You rule over." That's all. Why Kṛṣṇa should be interested in this ruling? He's the ruler of the whole situation.

Rāmeśvara: But it helps all the citizens if the devotees are ruling the kingdom.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is wanted. Therefore, if we become strong, we shall take over charge of government. It is not that we are entering into politics. We must! That is also one of the item of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. People are misguided. Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa [SB 7.9.43]. They are being induced to remain in ignorance. Therefore we want, make our plan. Śoce: "I am thinking very seriously how to save them." Prahlāda Mahārāja says. That is Vaiṣṇava's business. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhi. "They are suffering." That is Vaiṣṇava, real Vaiṣṇava, not that "Now I am realized soul, sit down and..." That is also good, but better business is to think for others. That is stated in the Bhāgavatam. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣu... [Bg. 18.68], na ca tasmād. If you want to be really very dear to Kṛṣṇa, you must preach this philosophy vigorously, not that "I have got it. Who is going to take so much botheration? Let me sit down." Kṛṣṇa... Who can be better devotee than Arjuna? And why did he... He was, rather, avoiding the botheration. Kṛṣṇa said, "No. You must take the botheration." He chastised him, kutas tva kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame [Bg. 2.2] = "Rascal, what is this? You must take. You have to take this botheration." On this principle, at the age of seventy years, I took all the botheration---"All right." The other friends were thinking that "This man is going to die, and he is going to preach." [laughing] They said like that. And "All right, I shall die. I shall die for Kṛṣṇa's cause." So we have to face so many problems, botherations. That is natural. We should not be afraid of this.

Rāmeśvara: You said it is the same business, and Kṛṣṇa is on this..., our side.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: We are on Kṛṣṇa's side.

Prabhupāda: So if we faithful, we are faithful to Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa will help.

Rāmeśvara: Normally in the age of Kali there is no Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Prabhupāda: No. This worldwide movement is a history. People have forgotten Kṛṣṇa, or God. Is it not?

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They simply..., a official church and temple, and they have no serious attachment. Simply kaitava. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2]. That is another kind of cheating. He's not religious, but he's posing himself = "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." That's all. He does not know what is religion. This is going on. Religion means direct touch with God. That is religion. So they have no idea of God. How there can be religion? Here is religion. We do not do anything which is not in interest of Kṛṣṇa. That is religion.

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...kicked out. They have no religion; simply bogus. There is no religion in the world at the present time. All bogus.

Rāmeśvara: But in past ages there is many... There's history of many Kali-yugas, but this Kṛṣṇa con..., Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, is unique.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it must be unique because it's genuine. It is not cheating.

Rāmeśvara: Jaya Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. [end]