Room Conversation , Bhubaneswar , 1977-01-21
Prabhupāda: They claim if there are temples, people are accustomed going to temple, chanting Hare..., there is no harm. But the city like the Western countries, simply sense gratification, that should be stopped.
Rāmeśvara: Yes. Yes. And you mention specifically...
Prabhupāda: Just like in Kṛṣṇa's time there were cities like Mathurā, Dvārakā. They were cities, big, big city. And when Kṛṣṇa came, they were decorating, they were receiving. So that kind of city will continue, but not this hellish city---slaughterhouse, brothel and big, big tin car and so on, accident.
Prabhupāda: We have no objection to this, provided there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Unfortunately, these things cover more time for their maintenance, and they forget Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That should be stopped. The main business is development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Rāmeśvara: And you also mentioned not so much these ugra-karmic jobs...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Rāmeśvara: ...industry. Now hundreds of thousands of people have their jobs in this way. So...
Prabhupāda: Let them go to the farm. We are therefore organizing farm. As soon as they are jobless, "Come on. We shall feed you. We shall give you food." There is no scarcity of food.
Hari-śauri: Does that mean we have to wait for the situation to arise where they are jobless?
Prabhupāda: No. Wait... We are waiting, but if anyone comes, we have already big, big farms. "Come, hundreds. We shall provide you."
Hari-śauri: But this is talking in terms of millions of people who are engaged in America in the cities.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Let millions... The land is also millions acres. We shall utilize gradually.
Rāmeśvara: Now, what I am thinking is this, that you have mentioned many times, several times, that there is a conflict which is inevitable between Russia and America.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. No, if they understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness, both of them---now we are publishing---then there will be no conflict on...
Rāmeśvara: If Russia...
Rāmeśvara: But if not...
Prabhupāda: Then we shall force America to fight with them, finish this philosophy.
Rāmeśvara: Now, if this conflict takes place, then you mentioned that many cities, both in America and Russia, will be bombed or affected by this conflict.
Prabhupāda: Hmm, hmm.
Rāmeśvara: So when the war is finished...
Prabhupāda: Then they will come to their senses.
Rāmeśvara: Then there will be nothing left. Their jobs, their factories, it will all... So then they'll be able to easily understand, "Now let us start again. We'll live on the farm. Simpler life."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That will be good lesson for them.
Rāmeśvara: So is this conflict part of the spreading of Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. To conflict means to finish the sinful activities. Finish, stop it.
Rāmeśvara: It seems then that this conflict will be a great opportunity for our movement.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Rāmeśvara: And afterwards there will be an opportunity to influence people.
Prabhupāda: We shall take every opportunity. We are the best opportunists. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇanu... [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. This is ānukūla. This is favorable for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We shall immediately accept. It doesn't matter what it is. We do not depend on the public opinion---"This is good" or "This is bad." Our "good" "bad" is = if it is favorable for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is good; otherwise bad.
Rāmeśvara: So it seems that as our movement grows more and more...
Rāmeśvara: ...then America will more and more be considering active stopping of Communism. It'll be logical.
Prabhupāda: Everything will be stopped, all bogus social, political or religious systems. They will be all stopped.
Rāmeśvara: Then this will be a natural development of the growth of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Two things = paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. As the duṣkṛtā---na māṁ duṣkṛtā mūḍhāḥ---will be reduced, the sādhu will increase. Or the sādhu will increase, the duṣkṛta will decrease.
Rāmeśvara: This conflict will be global. It will affect the whole world.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That doesn't matter.
Hari-śauri: We're already in every country now.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the Kurukṣetra fight.
Rāmeśvara: So this conflict will take place...
Prabhupāda: Support Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja and kill Duryodhana. This is Kurukṣetra.
Rāmeśvara: It seems our movement has to grow much more...
Prabhupāda: It will grow.
Rāmeśvara: ...before this will take place.
Prabhupāda: It will grow = It is growing. Simply our workers should be very sincere and strict, and it will it grow. Nobody can check. That's a fact. Simply we have to be very strict and sincere. Then nobody can check.
Rāmeśvara: Because after such a conflict the whole world will be...
Prabhupāda: Conflict is already there. Just like they're opposing.
Rāmeśvara: But I mean actual destruction of their culture, their...
Prabhupāda: Now they are trying to destroy us. And we are trying to destroy them. The conflict is already there. And this is now psychological fight. And then there will be actual fight. And we must take part in that fight.
Rāmeśvara: We will be the only ones who have any vision what to do after the war.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got clear vision. We are not putting any theory. We are always presenting fact. And that is materializing. Just like we started this farm. It is materializing gradually. It is not yet fully organized; still, there is hope that it will give peace to the people. There is sufficient hope.
Hari-śauri: Is our goal to actually establish Vedic principles back into society again at large?
Rāmeśvara: Of course.
Prabhupāda: That will be Satya-yuga. Again the Vedic principles will be established after finishing this Kali-yuga. And that is Satya-yuga. That is going on. Just after summer, there is winter. There is... After winter, there is summer.
Rāmeśvara: But this is extraordinary. Lord Caitanya's movement, the ten thousand years of His movement, that is a special exception for the Kali-yuga.
Prabhupāda: Special for this millennium. But the thing is going on like that, rotating.
Rāmeśvara: But in general, first it gets more and more degraded. Then it's all finished.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless there is degradation, there is no question of improvement. So this is going on. This is nature's way, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19], appearance and disappearance.
Rāmeśvara: Now this Kṛṣṇa conscious government... Will many of the things that are going on in America, like schools and education, teaching people to read and write...
Prabhupāda: They'll have to reform.
Rāmeśvara: That will all continue, but it will be adjusted so that Kṛṣṇa consciousness...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukula, Gurukula education.
Rāmeśvara: Still we'll be teaching subjects like history and math.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Without teaching, how the human society will exist? There must be.
Hari-śauri: No, he's talking about some of the subjects they teach now.
Rāmeśvara: Material science as well as spiritual science?
Prabhupāda: No. No, no. There is no need of so-called material science---how to kill children in the womb. These things will be kicked out. Nonsense.
Rāmeśvara: Do you think that they will adopt Indian medicine over Western medicine, things like that? Because there has to be some varṇāśrama. There is...
Prabhupāda: No, medicine, if it is actually medicine, it will be accepted. It doesn't matter whether it is Indian or Western. If it is medicine it will be accepted.
Rāmeśvara: So that kind of research is in the mode of goodness.
Prabhupāda: That is already there. We have to make little research. It..., already there. There are books, Āyurvedic books. They are very nice. Everything can be done. Dhanvantari. It is given by Dhanvantari avatāra, incarnation of Kṛṣṇa.
Rāmeśvara: You have written in the First Canto that we welcome scientists, doctors...
Prabhupāda: Yes, if it is beneficial.
Rāmeśvara: We welcome all these people if they dovetail their work for Kṛṣṇa.
Rāmeśvara: So it's not that these...
Prabhupāda: We do not approve anything which is not actually beneficial. Otherwise it doesn't matter, homeopathic or allopathic. But there is standard medicine given by Dhanvantari.
Rāmeśvara: Yes. But what about certain technological advancements like airplanes and automobiles?
Prabhupāda: There are subtler aeroplanes. Aeroplane is mentioned in the śāstras. Now they are working on machine, but there are aeroplanes which can work on mantra.
Rāmeśvara: But that science is lost.
Prabhupāda: Not lost. It is there.
Hari-śauri: It's hidden.
Rāmeśvara: We can't practice that.
Prabhupāda: No, we can practice what is called ākāśa paṭala. This book is there in Germany. It was purchased by the Germans.
Rāmeśvara: But do you think that the Vedic sciences will be revived as our movement becomes...
Prabhupāda: No, now our main purpose is to revive Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In favor of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, whatever is available, beneficial, we shall adopt.
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Rāmeśvara: In other words, we want to reorganize all of society so that they develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's it. We do not hate anything. That is not our business. Just like we utilizing this. So it is modern, scientific gift. So we can utilize it for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We do not say... We are not so bigot---"No, no. It is material. We shall not touch it." We are not such fools.
Hari-śauri: No, we can use everything.
Hari-śauri: But just like when we want to try and attract someone to Kṛṣṇa consciousness now, the main theme is to try to get them to come and stay at the temple. But will that continue in the future?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Why not? It is learning. It is center for teaching you.
Rāmeśvara: No, you've... I think... You have already mentioned that we cannot expect that every man will completely surrender cent percent.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not possible.
Rāmeśvara: There can be one example.
Prabhupāda: There are three guṇas. So somebody is under sattva-guṇa, somebody is... So you cannot disturb the... Let them remain in their... But we... Our process is transcendental. Kevalayā bhaktyā. Kecit kevalayā bhaktyā vāsudeva-parāyaṇaḥ [SB 6.1.15]. Simply by bhakti we transcend all qualities---sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. So we have nothing to do with the qualities of material nature.
Hari-śauri: So those persons who can't come up to the standard of the temple life...
Hari-śauri: ...they should remain outside.
Prabhupāda: That is above all the guṇas.
Rāmeśvara: That's very rare. That is the most rare.
Rāmeśvara: Not every man. You always say it's not possible for every man.
Prabhupāda: No, that you cannot do. Because you are in the material world, how you can avoid the influence of material qualities? But our process is so nice that anyone can avoid if he follows. There is no difficulty.
Hari-śauri: But just like in our society we already have so many people who are initiated, but they can't follow the principles very strictly.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. It will take some time. They'll do it.
Hari-śauri: They just have to be encouraged to keep that association.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I stress in every letter, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa at least sixteen times. Follow these principles." That can be done.[?] This simple method will help. Even if he cannot strictly follow, still, whatever he has done, that is his asset. And it will give me more and more chance. So it is not actually lost. Tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbhujaṁ harer, patet tato yadi bhajann apakvo 'tha [SB 1.5.17].
Hari-śauri: So we have to give allowances to such people. We have to give allowances?
Prabhupāda: Allowance? It is not allowance, but give him instruction. It is up to him to follow or not to follow.
Hari-śauri: But we cannot give any compromise.
Prabhupāda: No. This is the way. "But you are not able? All right, take little more time."
Hari-śauri: So, say like one point now that's coming up more and more is that these married couples, the women want a divorce or get another husband.
Prabhupāda: But we should not implicate.
Hari-śauri: So we cannot encourage divorce.
Prabhupāda: No. We do not meddle matters in that way very much. That is a sideline.
Rāmeśvara: And one thing about government that we see, at least in America, is that each time there is an election the candidates may make so many pledges, "I think I'll go this way. I'll..."
Prabhupāda: No, election is going on under some rules and regulations, so you can make election under Kṛṣṇa conscious government rules and regulations. That can be done. Legislative assembly, the senators, they must be all first-class brāhmaṇas. Otherwise he cannot be elected. This should be introduced. Unless one is following the brahminical principles, he cannot be elected. He must give up these four principles of sinful life. He should not accept any salary. Very much learned scholar in Vedic literature. Then he will be elected.
Rāmeśvara: That will happen one day.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That will guide the whole nation. The rascals, anyway, the naked and prostitute-hunter, what they can do? These third-class, fourth-class, tenth-class men are being elected. There is no happiness. There is no solution of problems. All tenth-class men. I directly challenged one gentleman that "You are all tenth-class men." Pāpa... Pāpa...
Hari-śauri: That man in Perth. [laughs]
Prabhupāda: "There is no first-class man now governing the situation. All fourth class, fifth class, tenth class. There is no first-class man." I challenged him.
Hari-śauri: When he went out the door he said, "Oh, well, I suppose I'd better go back to my fourth-class life."
Prabhupāda: [laughs] Yes. "You are already."
Rāmeśvara: In Vedic culture, kings like Parīkṣit Mahārāja were trained when they were very young.
Rāmeśvara: So it seems...
Prabhupāda: They were trained by the first-class brāhmaṇas, saintly persons. They abided by their order. There was committee, advisory committee. Even at the time of his death, he's asking advice from the saintly..., "What is my duty?" That is king. He's not doing anything whimsically. And the first-class man should be first class. Then second-class man, executive, kṣatriyas, they will force = "You must do it!" And then the third class, they should produce and carry out the order of the second class, king. And fourth class, they cannot do anything. Let them serve everyone, that's all---śūdras. They have no intelligence. But everyone is important, cooperatively. This is society. You require also legs; you require also heads. Simply heads will not help you. Head will give instruction, "Leg, please walk in this way." That's all. Legs will move. He carries me. "Hands, give me protection, immediately." "Yes! A bad somebody coming. Come on." Yes. "Belly, you produce food, sufficient, so that the legs, hands and brain, everyone will be provided with sufficient..." This way. This is society. All third-class, fourth-class men simply going to the factory, and they are making laws. This is... What is called? Chaos. Chaotic society, no brain.
Prabhupāda: Pandemonium, yes. This has to be reformed. You cannot avoid these four classes working under the superior instruction of brahminical culture. Then everything... This life successful, next life is back to home, back to Godhead. That is civilization---no speculation. The formula is already there. Bhagavad-gītā is the guidance, as it is. "Be happy here, and next life hope. Why you are disappointed? Take this way and be happy." This is our movement. We are not going to exploit anyone. We are giving the right path = "Be happy in this life and next life also." This is our mission. Para upakāra: they are blindly following some ways of life. Blind men, certainly, without guidance, we are falling down in the ditch. Once this human life is misused, he falls down in the ditch. He does not... He becomes a tree. "Stand up there for one thousand years. What you can do?" This risk they are taking. They do not believe, therefore, there is next life. And wherefrom this life came, varieties? These rascals have no brain, and they are passing as scientist, politician, philosopher---all rascals, tenth-class men. Tell them. Challenge them, "What do you know about the value of life? Your brain must be washed to clear out all the dirty things." Our duty is that. Just like a patient does not know how he will be cured, but the surgeon---"Operation. Clear out these puses." He may protest, "Oh, you are clearing out my puses!" But "Yes! It is my business. Clear out the puses. Then you will be relieved---by force." But he can protest, "Oh, you are clearing out my puses!" "Puses, what for you...? Puses is not to be maintained. It has to be cleared out." This is para upakāra, doing good to others. And the patient will protest, "Oh, this rascal doctor, killing me, killing me, killing me!" "Yes, I am not killing you. I am saving you. You go on accusing me any way, but I must do my duty." This is the point. "Yes, we are washing brain," exactly like the experienced surgeon. He doesn't make any compromise. "Oh, you are suffering from the boil. There is pus. All right, you don't like operation?" Will that cure? "No, fool! Come one. Bring knife. Cut it. Press. Now?" "Oh, I am so relieved! You are God. You are God." [laughter] Then he will see. That is our duty = purge out all puses accumulated due to infection, material infection. This is our duty. We cannot make any compromise. When the puses are to be purged out, we cannot take your advice, that "Just blow some air from the mouth or some fan. It will be cured." No, it will not be. Take surgical operation. That is only way. Purge out. "No this! No this! No this! No meat-eating. No illict sex." This is purging.
Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [end]