Conversation on Train to Allahabad , India , 1977-01-11

Rāmeśvara: We are going out to sell our books, and even if the person does not want to buy, we are insisting that they buy.

Prabhupāda: This is our duty. That is our duty.

Rāmeśvara: He thinks it is too aggressive.

Prabhupāda: Eh? No, that is your temperament, because everything has got degree according to the man. It is not [indistinct]. That is my... We are imploring.

Rāmeśvara: So his conclusion was that all the people who we are selling books to, they do not like us. That was his conclusion. So I said that if they do not like us, then why is our book sales increasing? We started off selling two hundred thousand magazines a month. Now one million a month. So if you say that people do not like us...

Prabhupāda: Not two hundred thousand.

Trivikrama: Twenty.

Hari-śauri: Ten thousand.

Prabhupāda: Began with five thousand.

Rāmeśvara: And we said that people are writing us so many letters ordering our books by mail. So you say they do not like us, but we say they love us.

Prabhupāda: What was his reply?

Rāmeśvara: On every point he was defeated. Then this Reverend from the Lutheran Church, he said that we have invented this Kṛṣṇa religion. He said that Kṛṣṇa is an ordinary man who is a sex symbol, having so many women, gopīs, wives, and that we are saying that He is God. And this is heresy, he told us---a concoction. So he was defeated in different ways also. And at the end he had to admit that "The only way to find out is if you buy their books. So everyone go buy their books and see for yourself."

Prabhupāda: No, even taking it that Kṛṣṇa is after sex, then if sex is bad, then why you are after sex? The whole world is going on after sex. How you can deny it?

Rāmeśvara: He says that sex is not for God.

Prabhupāda: Why? If sex if not there in God, then how it comes? If God created everything, so God did not create sex?

Rāmeśvara: They think it means we are saying God has a material body, because they associate sex with material body.

Prabhupāda: Material body has no sex. A dead man does not enjoy sex. Do you think that a dead man enjoys sex? Suppose a beautiful girl---dead. Will you accept for sex? Then why do you take that sex is for the body? [indistinct---train noise] "Sex is for the material body" is not the fact. When the soul is not there, where is sex?

Rāmeśvara: They consider sex to be his lower nature, animal nature.

Prabhupāda: No. Everything is..., becomes animal nature when it is perverted, when it is contaminated.

Rāmeśvara: They do not have any conception of the positive.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Rāmeśvara: They have no conception of pure life. So they think that it's just...

Prabhupāda: If they have no conception, we should give them conception that when the body is dead, decomposed, then where is the sex? Where is the inclination? Similarly, the soul originally, as it is said in the Vedānta-sūtra, that "Everything is coming from Brahman." Athāto brahma jijñāsā: "Now let us talk about Brahman." This is the meaning of athāto brahma-jijñāsāh. Then next verse is..., sūtra, code---janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. And Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo [Bg. 10.8]. So unless sex comes from God... It may be perverted in the material world. That is another thing. But originally, pure sex must be there in God. Otherwise how it comes? Everything is emanating from the Supreme. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. So how you can say there is no sex? Viśvanātha Cakravartī dāsa Ṭhākura explains that janmādy asya, ādi-rasa. Ādi. Ādi-rasa means sex enjoyment. So he has explained that sex has come from Kṛṣṇa. Because we have used perverted sex, we have got a very bad idea. But actually sex is there in the original. Otherwise there is no question of mādhurya-rasa, hlādinī-śakti. There is no question of sex. You do not understand Absolute. The opposition party will [indistinct] you, but sex is originally from Brahman. That is a fact.

Rāmeśvara: His argument was that when Kṛṣṇa was here, He was having friendship with the gopīs, who were married to other men.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: This is immoral.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: God never acts in immoral ways.

Prabhupāda: So that you have made, immoral. Because if He is the proprietor, then He is the proprietor of everything. You have accepted one woman who belongs to Kṛṣṇa. You are immoral. He is the original proprietor of everything, and everything belongs to Him, but He has given you one woman. Tena tyaktena [Īśo mantra 1]. But no woman belongs to you. So you should stop connection with women; it is immoral. Otherwise every woman belongs to Kṛṣṇa. How you can use Kṛṣṇa's property? That is the disease, that we are trying to enjoy Kṛṣṇa's property. Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva... [Bg. 5.29]. He's the bhokta, He's the enjoyer. How you can enjoy Kṛṣṇa's property? That is immoral. And therefore you shall be punished. And you are being punished. Because we are encroaching upon Kṛṣṇa's property illegally, therefore we are suffering. Kṛṣṇa is moral. You are immoral. You are utilizing unauthorizedly, using Kṛṣṇa's property.

Rāmeśvara: His argument was that if God comes to this world and displays activities with women, it is natural that the followers of that religion will also want to have affairs with women.

Prabhupāda: No. Because they have not studied Kṛṣṇa, they misunderstand in that way. You are fond of woman. Kṛṣṇa comes to show you that in the Vaikuṇṭha, Goloka Vṛndāvana, there is woman, but not in this way. Originally there is. That is pure. So it requires education. You are not educated; you cannot talk. [indistinct---train noise] Now sex..., even in our material experience we find that by sex many great men has been [indistinct]. So how you can accuse sex? You are talking. We should say, "You are a product of sex. So how do you say that sex is bad?"

Rāmeśvara: They say that when one man has many different women, then that is immoral.

Prabhupāda: No, first of all answer. Suppose you are a big man, but you are product of sex. Are you born differently, or through sex? What is the answer?

Rāmeśvara: Sex.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sex is not bad. When it is misused, that is the defect. Otherwise, sex is not bad.

Rāmeśvara: The Western conception is that one man can only have one woman.

Prabhupāda: Why? If he can produce many big men, he can have hundreds of women. But you cannot do that. Therefore you are restrained. You are bad. You better restrain. Don't have sex, because you'll produce cats and dogs. But one who is able to produce great brain, great philosophers, he should produce hundreds. You do not know how to produce good brain. Therefore you stop! Don't produce cats and dogs. For you it is "Stop." You do not know how to use sex. Therefore you should stop. [break] You should not any more use sex. But one who can produce better brains should have hundreds of times. You must know how to produce. That is Vedic civilization, dharmaḥ saṁskāra idam...[?] It is not a secrecy, how to produce brain. And because brain is not produced, therefore there is agitation, that they have no brain. They do not know the value of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You have been produced like cats and dogs; therefore you cannot appreciate. Therefore you should stop. But one who has power to produce brain, to produce Kṛṣṇa conscious children, they should use. Foodstuff is forbidden for a person who cannot digest. One who can digest food, he must eat sumptuously. There is no restriction for him. Food is not bad. One who cannot digest, it is bad for him. This is the conclusion. What is food for one is poison for another. If you cannot use sex power how to use it for better purposes, you should not use sex. What is that verse that Kṛṣṇa says? Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya... [Bg. 14.4].

Hari-śauri: Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā.

Prabhupāda: Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. Tasmin garbhaṁ vadāmy aham. Garbhaṁ vadāmy aham.

Hari-śauri: I have a Bhagavad-gītā. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...further condition, one who thinks there is no good or bad. Everything is bad. He is thinking, "I am your friend..."

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: Good explanation---stool. Stool, this side or that side... [break] The more opposition there will be, more we have to defend.

Rāmeśvara: It's forcing us to become expert in different fields.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: You said, "Take the opportunity to be well advertised." You ordered.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Rāmeśvara: So we have to scheme in so many different ways to take advantage of this.

Prabhupāda: What is this? [train stops] [break]

Rāmeśvara: ...friends with all the newspaper, television and radio people. Already in Los Angeles they know us by our first names, and we know them by their first names. There is some familiarity.

Prabhupāda: Intimate with.

Rāmeśvara: And there's also a chance to meet government leaders.

Prabhupāda: Someway or other, it is becoming popular. [chuckles] Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, should we be thinking in our minds that one day the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement will have to manage the cities and the nations of the world?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Rāmeśvara: So there are so many different departments in managing such a big thing. It requires a lot of...

Prabhupāda: No, no. We shall... If people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then the so many nonsense departments will be reduced.

Hari-śauri: Hmm. Simplifying everything.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The departments, the sinful departments---illicit sex, meat-eating---this will be closed, and that will make simple.

Rāmeśvara: Completely?

Prabhupāda: No. At least we shall try to make closed. And if people become localized, then this traffic will be little. Just like I am trying to organize the farm. If people do not come out of home, then this system will be obsolete. There will be no more department. They have created hundreds. They do not know how to manage it. For livelihood they have to go to Bombay, and therefore they require so many local trains. But if they are localized, they can get their livelihood locally, there is no question of these all...

Rāmeśvara: In America this is becoming the number-one problem---unemployment.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They must be. Artificial employment. [train re-starts]

Rāmeśvara: People go to college in America, they can no longer get jobs. They spend so many years going to college getting their degree. So now they cannot find any jobs.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the position in America. And what to speak of this country. Therefore, after being educated they go to foreign countries. You'll find so many Indians in educational lines in your country, because they don't get any suitable jobs. [break] ...localized, then so many departments will be closed.

Rāmeśvara: It's possible in India, but not in America.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Rāmeśvara: The American people are... They consider it backwards.

Prabhupāda: That has to be educated, that backward is real life.

Rāmeśvara: They think they have achieved a higher standard of freedom by traveling all over the world...

Prabhupāda: Where is your freedom? Where is your freedom if for your livelihood you have to go a hundred miles? Where is your freedom? Why you are illusioned? For your bread, you have to go hundred miles off, either by car or by train. So where is your freedom?

Rāmeśvara: The freedom is in leisure time. They have a lot of leisure time.

Prabhupāda: Where is leisure time? You rise early in the morning and start for your office. Where is your leisure time? All imagination. I have seen in New York. They are coming from the other parts, starting early in the morning, two hours in the ferry and two hours in the cars, and standing two hours. What is this? Leaders, rich men, can think like that, that "I have leisure," but a worker, lower class, they have no freedom. That is illusion, and we are trying to give freedom to everyone. That is freedom. You are forced to go to the factory and work there in a hellish condition. Is that freedom?

Rāmeśvara: There must be still education so the people... Say we are one day...

Prabhupāda: No education. No. Education will be required only for the guiding class = brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, not for anyone, śūdras. They are two only. Others will... What education required? Suppose if you produce... If you..., you are accustomed to agriculture, cow protection, there is no need of going to college and schools. If you remain illiterate, still you can do.

Rāmeśvara: But in America...

Prabhupāda: No, no, America is not... I am talking of the [indistinct], the class who will guide the aim of life, brāhmaṇa class, and a class that will give them protection from injuries by others---kṣatriya class. Then the next class, food-producing men, they do not require. Actually only brāhmaṇas, they require education. All..., all others, they will simply see and learn. So little education required---that you can learn by hearing only, that's all. Suppose a brāhmaṇa class says that "This is good; this is bad." So you hear and accept. It doesn't require to go to school and college. So education will be simplified. [break] Things have become very much complicated.

Rāmeśvara: They have given too much power to the people, so the people demand so many things.

Prabhupāda: Therefore they are suffering. Ordinary people, what they'll do? Anartha. Actually it is anartha. They have created so many things.

Rāmeśvara: They are very much afraid if we close down the gambling houses and the prostitution houses that there will be no more enjoyment. Life will be boring.

Prabhupāda: "What we'll do?" [laughter] So we shall give you opportunity to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and dance here. [train stops] What is this nonsense?

Rāmeśvara: It seems that if one day the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement has actually achieved some powerful position in America...

Prabhupāda: That we want.

Rāmeśvara: ...we will have to tolerate all these things---cinema, nightclubs. How can we close all these things? The people want these things.

Prabhupāda: No. If you educate people, if you give them better enjoyment, they'll give up.

Rāmeśvara: Very gradual.

Prabhupāda: Just like our men. They are not after cinema or brothel house or restaurants. It requires education.

Hari-śauri: We have to make them devotees.

Rāmeśvara: But can all the masses of people become devotees?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, cent percent devotees, by this process = ask them to chant and take prasāda.

Jagadīśa: People in general are very much inclined to accept whoever their leader is if they feel happy. So if we give them kīrtana and prasādam, if their economic needs are met, then how can they avoid? Economic needs are the main thing. That's why there's...

Prabhupāda: If they can eat nicely and they have no, I mean to say, complaint for living conditions, they will become.

Rāmeśvara: But they will not give up sex life.

Prabhupāda: No, no. I don't say that you give up sex life.

Rāmeśvara: That means that they want to have nice clothing and cars for sex. As soon as there is sex, then they want so many other things to make it more attractive.

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. Not necessarily. Formerly there was sex life. They're thinking like that, "We require," naturally. First of all they'll be... If they advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they will stop sex life. Yad-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa... If they're really Kṛṣṇa conscious, they'll have no more taste for sex life. That is...

Hari-śauri: But that position is not very easily attainable.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not easy. Therefore we say "restricting." And this will be possible if he follows our program.

Rāmeśvara: You have said many times that if a small percentage of the Americans become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then the whole country can gradually become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Rāmeśvara: So that means that in the beginning we may be very powerful in government, but still, the masses of people will be karmīs still.

Prabhupāda: No. You can introduce in such a way that they will become devotees. Suppose in big, big factories we shall introduce this prasāda distribution and chanting. They'll immediately be popular. Everything will be... Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12].

Jagadīśa: In order for us to get power, by that time the illumination and knowledge of Kṛṣṇa consciousness will be widespread.

Rāmeśvara: That's what I'm wondering. I was thinking that it wouldn't be. There would be...

Jagadīśa: Otherwise how can we get through? What is the use of having one politician?

Rāmeśvara: Many revolutions have been victorious with a very small minority of people behind them because they're so well organized. Russia, Germany---all these revolutions.

Prabhupāda: That's a fact.

Rāmeśvara: In history there is examples of small groups of people taking over a government because they are very intelligent and very well organized.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: And the mass of people did not believe in them, but still, they took over the government. Like in Russia.

Jagadīśa: But Kṛṣṇa consciousness knowledge...

Prabhupāda: In Russia, the mass of people aloof from this rascal theory.

Hari-śauri: They are not Communists, the mass of people. The Communist party itself is very small.

Prabhupāda: Yes, very small. By terrorism there will be. By terrorism.

Rāmeśvara: So when the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement becomes so powerful that it is in charge of the government, is it because of a small group of people or because of a mass?

Prabhupāda: It is due to quality of the leaders.

Rāmeśvara: But will it be like Russia, where there is only a small group of people who are Kṛṣṇa conscious?

Prabhupāda: No, it is not that. The quality of the people will be changed.

Rāmeśvara: So that means the whole mass population...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Only then will Kṛṣṇa conscious government...

Prabhupāda: No, no. You can have government when you are in even minority. But the mass of people, on account of this quality, they have to see.

Hari-śauri: The idea is to convince them that what they need is good quality leaders, that not necessarily that they already have to become to that stage themselves.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jagadīśa: Kṛṣṇa consciousness can be appreciated by any man, because it's very simple.

Prabhupāda: Simple and it is natural also.

Hari-śauri: The desire for good leadership is there, but they... So if we present good leaders, then they'll naturally take.

Prabhupāda: Our leaders must be very good.

Hari-śauri: That means we have to move into political circles and do a lot of preaching on there. [train starts moving]

Prabhupāda: If you work strictly on your principles, then everyone...

Rāmeśvara: In America there is a rule that there is separation of church and government.

Prabhupāda: It is not church.

Rāmeśvara: But they think of us...

Prabhupāda: Not stereotyped church.

Rāmeśvara: But they think of us as a religion.

Prabhupāda: They may think. It is not the fact.

Jagadīśa: It is a science.

Prabhupāda: It is a culture.

Rāmeśvara: For example, this group, this new record, Golden Avatar record...

Prabhupāda: That may be for a certain class.

Rāmeśvara: ...it can become very popular. But if they find out it is Hare Kṛṣṇa, they will think it is religion and they will not buy it. But if we do not mention that it is Hare Kṛṣṇa right at the beginning...

Prabhupāda: Either you mention or not mention, unless they realize that it is good...

Rāmeśvara: Well, that they'll realize when they hear it. Just like our book distributors. They're not dressing as Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees; therefore they are successful. As soon as the people see that they are Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees, they do not want religion.

Prabhupāda: No... Suppose a military dress... Then there are different dresses. When it is understood properly, dress is immaterial. The military dress, everyone knows that their business is to kill. That does not mean they are hated. Similarly, people see, and when they understand, then it comes.

Jagadīśa: In the Kṛṣṇa book, when Kamsa was being a little lenient with Vasudeva, Nārada Muni thought to speed things up, so he went and instigated Kamsa to become frightened about Vasudeva and Devaki and their children. So similarly, it appears that in order to speed up Kṛṣṇa consciousness's infiltration and overtaking this materialistic society, that all of these brainwashing charges and other things are coming out.

Prabhupāda: It has got... The chanting has got spiritual power. That will rectify everything. Even there is misunderstanding, it will be rectified. That is spiritual power.

Rāmeśvara: The chanting for the mass of people is by reading your books.

Prabhupāda: That will rectify everything. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. All misunderstanding gone away.

Rāmeśvara: We have to be very clever.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Rāmeśvara: In America it requires being very clever to get them to read your books. Even if they buy millions of books, there's no guarantee that they're reading it. So we have to make other kinds of propaganda.

Prabhupāda: No, at least it is expected they will read = "What is this book I have purchased? Let me see." [background comments by devotees---indistinct because of train noise] Reading, of course, meant for intelligent class.

Hari-śauri: Well, just like this radio show, there were so many things said, but at the end, even the man who was blaspheming said, "Well, I guess we'll just have to read your books and find out what it's about." So if people hear a controversy and we're arguing one way, they argue another way, then if the book's there, they'll naturally want to read it just to see what actually what's the fact.

Rāmeśvara: We are starting a new radio show again in America. Formerly we had a show called "The Kṛṣṇa Show." So we're starting it again, and it will be nationwide. And there will be a lot of controversy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We have to take advantage of the modern medium of publicity.

Rāmeśvara: Radio and even television.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Everyone watches television. If they see it on television, it is "That's a fact."

Prabhupāda: We have to show how we are eating, how we are sleeping, how we are talking. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [japa]

Rāmeśvara: The only hope is if Kṛṣṇa gives us the intelligence---because we're so stupid.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa has already given you. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekāṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is simple truth. "Believe in Kṛṣṇa. That means Supreme Personality of Godhead. Whatever He says is truth." That's all. This is intelligence = "Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, that is truth."

Hari-śauri: Even if one is not so clever, still, if he simply repeats and presents Kṛṣṇa, then that's enough.

Prabhupāda: Firm faith. Firm faith = "Whatever Kṛṣṇa says is all right."

Hari-śauri: Because ultimately Kṛṣṇa is the doer of everything.

Prabhupāda: Śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya [Cc. Madhya 22.62]. This is basic platform, so "What Kṛṣṇa says, that is truth." Kṛṣṇa bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya: "If I follow Kṛṣṇa, then my life is complete." This is intelligence. Now... We have come to the open fields. How it is nice. And so long we were passing through that congested areas---hellish, simply hellish. And now here is open space, how it is nice.

Hari-śauri: To enter into a city is so imposing on your consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Up to that point, simply rubbish, all papers thrown here and there. People are living in... Now see here, how it is open and pleasing. Organize this farm project. Farm. [background talking obscured by train noise]

Hari-śauri: He's just saying that in the West one requires a great deal of capital. To start a farm, to get the land, you need a lot of money because land is very expensive. And also we have to use modern farming techniques because we have so few men to run the farms.

Prabhupāda: No, you show example. People will do automatically. When the people find it is very nice, they will take.

Hari-śauri: Should we try to make an effort to have our householders go and live on the farms, a special effort to persuade them to do that?

Prabhupāda: Why householders? Everyone. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [japa]

Rāmeśvara: In America there is a very big emphasis on getting people to join us by moving into our temples. The temple presidents are very eager to get as many people to move in as possible. But in the long run most people cannot come up to the standard.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I am... Farms.

Rāmeśvara: So they have to be encouraged to have a little bit of Kṛṣṇa consciousness in their own home, make their home a temple.

Prabhupāda: No, let them go to the farm, New Vrindavan.

Rāmeśvara: But many people... Most people in the world, they are gṛhamedhīs, and they cannot give it up so easily.

Prabhupāda: "No, you remain... Come here with your wife, children. You remain gṛhamedhī."

Jagadīśa: New Vrindavan is very austere. If we build little bungalows with modern convenience...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Jagadīśa: There has to be some modern convenience.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Then we shall do that.

Rāmeśvara: But for many people who live in the cities, they have their jobs already. They don't want to give it up.

Prabhupāda: [train slows down] What is the nonsense? So, there is a station? No station.

Jagadīśa: Why does this train keep stopping? [train stops]

Prabhupāda: [someone enters carriage] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Jagadīśa: Why does the train keep stopping?

Prabhupāda: Who is this gentleman?

Hari-śauri: Pradyumna?

Prabhupāda: Oh, Pradyumna.

Rāmeśvara: Say, in America, most people live in the cities, and they already have their job, and they are set in their ways.

Prabhupāda: But you said that there is unemployment also.

Rāmeśvara: To a certain extent. But there are still 250 million people. So most of them...

Prabhupāda: So those who are unemployed, let them come to us. We shall give them employment.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. But for the mass population...

Prabhupāda: Well, gradually you will increase and...

Rāmeśvara: We have to give them something that they can do in their home.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Rāmeśvara: Because it is impractical to think that they will give up everything and move into the temple.

Prabhupāda: No, those who are unemployed, let them come. We shall give them employment.

Jagadīśa: On the farm.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: For those who are unemployed, that's attractive.

Jagadīśa: But for those who are already employed...

Rāmeśvara: But most people have jobs.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Rāmeśvara: Many people already have their jobs and their families.

Prabhupāda: All right, let them not come; but those who are unemployed, let them come.

Rāmeśvara: But what...? For those people who already have their jobs, instead of...

Prabhupāda: That job... They will be very soon jobless. Don't worry. [laughs] They will come. They will be obliged to come. Now they have got job, but as the days are advancing in Kali-yuga, they'll be jobless.

Hari-śauri: So we can expect that material conditions are going to become very much worse than this.

Prabhupāda: They may come or not. Now we don't care for it. Let us establish an ideal society. That is the...

Jagadīśa: If someone who is well-off wants to become a devotee, shall we encourage him to give up all of his material well-being, or shall we ask him to instead put a temple in his house and encourage him how to make his house into a temple and make his whole family Kṛṣṇa conscious?

Prabhupāda: And what is your material well-being? Everyone is going hundred miles for well-being. Is that well-being? Either they may go by motorcar or by train... And as soon as there is---what is called?---bottle-neck, they become very much disturbed = "How to go to the office?" Where is well-being?

Rāmeśvara: Say the Christian religion... The Christian religion has millions of followers.

Prabhupāda: But what is the meaning of these followers? They do not understand anything. Simply by rubber-stamp they are follower.

Rāmeśvara: But if we can get a mass following, it is only possible by preaching to them little bit at a time.

Prabhupāda: Yes. By your ideal life, ideal teaching, you'll get. This Christian or any religion, what is the use of that? It's not at all religion. It's simply rubber-stamp.

Rāmeśvara: No. But if we had many people, then gradually we could help them become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: But I think they will all... One thing that scares people is that we ask too much...

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is...

Rāmeśvara: ...at the beginning. We are asking too much.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: So if we ask just a little bit, then gradually we increase.

Prabhupāda: No, little bit we say, that "You come, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasāda."

Jagadīśa: "And read our books."

Prabhupāda: Suppose you are illiterate, you cannot. But you can do this---"Come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam."

Rāmeśvara: That is a big misunderstanding in America. People think that to be a Hare Kṛṣṇa you have to give up everything.

Prabhupāda: That... Yes, you have to give up everything which is bad. Do you think drinking is very good?

Rāmeśvara: [chuckling] No.

Prabhupāda: So if I say, "You have to give it up," so what is the wrong there?

Rāmeśvara: But they feel that unless they give up everything all at once, they cannot become members of the Kṛṣṇa movement.

Prabhupāda: No, he'll automatically give...

Rāmeśvara: Gradually he'll automatically...

Prabhupāda: He'll give up.

Hari-śauri: [train starts to move again] First thing is to begin the positive process. Then the negative process will follow along.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. If he understands it is very nice to chant, dance and take prasādam, they'll give up.

Rāmeśvara: Many people think that if you become a Hare Kṛṣṇa you have to shave your head.

Prabhupāda: That is very good.

Rāmeśvara: But it scares them, and it keeps them from joining us.

Prabhupāda: No, you save so much barbers' expenditure. [laughter]

Hari-śauri: So much inconvenience for washing.

Rāmeśvara: These are misunderstandings that confuse people.

Prabhupāda: The whole life is misunderstanding, material life.

Rāmeśvara: But we want them to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's the main thing.

Prabhupāda: So why they are envious of us? When we live very nicely, they are envious, that "These people do not do anything, and they are living so nicely."

Rāmeśvara: They will not be so envious if they see that people who dress in Western style and keep their families and keep their jobs are also chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then they will not be so...

Prabhupāda: We say... We say that, that we simply say, that "You change your consciousness."

Rāmeśvara: Not change your dress, but change your consciousness.

Prabhupāda: No, we never said. If you prefer that kind of dress, costly, you prefer it. But we are simplified.

Rāmeśvara: It's our choice.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: As a person becomes more purified, then he'll simplify himself anyway. And if he really cultivates a desire to...

Prabhupāda: Now, nowadays coat-pant is very costly. If you can spend your money, costly dress, we have no objection. Then you have to earn more; you have to work more. Therefore we are simplified.

Rāmeśvara: Ultimately, it is the best thing.

Prabhupāda: If they want to come in that dress, come in. If you want, come in. [someone enters]

Rāmeśvara: I have been studying this record business in the last month or two.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Rāmeśvara: I've been studying the record business in America. People spend more money on records than they do on books. In general, in general people are buying more records than books.

Prabhupāda: [aside:] Give them some seat. Is there any carpet? Bring something.

Hari-śauri: What time do you want to take prasādam, Śrīla Prabhupāda? It's 8:25 now.

Prabhupāda: Whenever... You take?

Hari-śauri: Well, we'll all take in that other carriage, and you can eat undisturbed. I'll remain here, or whatever you want.

Prabhupāda: I may take little later.

Hari-śauri: Well, we can take later on.

Rāmeśvara: So I found out that people spend more money on records than on books in America. That means that if we sell our record in the store, it can bring us a lot of income. In general, people spend more money on records.

Prabhupāda: So you get more income. For using it, let them come and take prasādam. Don't accumulate money.

Rāmeśvara: No.

Prabhupāda: Get money and spend it.

Rāmeśvara: Prasādam distribution is the best thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: There was a big parade in Los Angeles called the Rose Bowl. One million people. So we made ten thousand bags of peanuts and raisins and called it "Govinda's Nuts 'n' Raisins." We were tossing it to the crowd, and they were going "Hare Kṛṣṇa! Here! Kṛṣṇa!" They were begging for it.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Rāmeśvara: We could have passed out prasādam for one million people if we had had enough money.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Earn money like that.

Rāmeśvara: It costs a lot of money.

Prabhupāda: Either produce food in the farm or earn money and purchase, but give prasādam.

Rāmeśvara: We saw it that they..., they knew it was Kṛṣṇa prasādam, and they were standing up in the crowds, "Kṛṣṇa! Here!" and begging for it.

Prabhupāda: [laughs] So they have at least chanted "Kṛṣṇa." That is our profit.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. And everyone liked it. And we were giving it out for free. That they very much appreciated.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Everyone else is taking their money, but when we give them prasādam for free, they very much appreciate it.

Prabhupāda: So do that. There is no need of accumulating money and pay income tax and botheration. Spend it. Always remain empty pocket.

Rāmeśvara: So I was thinking to develop this record group so we can make lots of money.

Prabhupāda: You make lots of money and spend lots of money. Don't keep it in the pocket. What is the use of keeping? No income.

Rāmeśvara: No, our only interest is to spend it as fast as we get it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Spend it for distribution. They'll say, "Kṛṣṇa, give us prasādam!" And that is our triumph. They chant and "Kṛṣṇa." That's all right. "Take prasādam."

Rāmeśvara: So I'm encouraging them to make more records like the "Change of Heart."

Prabhupāda: We are not dry, simply talking philosophy. "Take prasāda. Eat sumptuously."

Rāmeśvara: In America, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if people become followers of a particular music group, then they take their message and their life-style very seriously. Just like when the people were following the Beatles, and then the Beatles became involved with meditation, so this made it very popular in America. If the group becomes... If the music group becomes popular, then whatever they do, everyone follows. So I am thinking that we can make this music group, Golden Avatar, very popular. Then everyone will find out that they believe in reincarnation and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and everyone will follow.

Prabhupāda: Yes, something "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa" music must be there.

Rāmeśvara: Now, to make this group very popular, they have to have Western dress.

Prabhupāda: Never mind.

Rāmeśvara: That's no problem.

Prabhupāda: No.

Rāmeśvara: And they have to have long hair for wigs, or else they grow it. But somehow or other, they cannot be shaven-headed Hare Kṛṣṇas.

Prabhupāda: Long hair is not... We should not do that.

Rāmeśvara: They have to have wigs then.

Prabhupāda: Why wigs?

Rāmeśvara: Because in America all the musicians have hair, because that way people become attracted to them.

Prabhupāda: No, we cannot take hair. That is not possible. We cannot become hippies.

Rāmeśvara: No, not hippies. So then, rather than growing their hair, they should wear wigs. Just like our book distributors do not grow their hair long, but they wear wigs.

Prabhupāda: But do you mean to say unless you have long hairs, they will not hear your song?

Rāmeśvara: Medium.

Prabhupāda: That is not. If they like your song, it doesn't matter whether you have long hairs or not.

Rāmeśvara: The main thing is they cannot be wearing śikhā and shaved head.

Prabhupāda: That must be there.

Rāmeśvara: But when they make public appearances, they have to be in disguise.

Prabhupāda: Make public to become gentlemen. Formerly they had no long hairs. They dressed like gentlemen. That we cannot do.

Rāmeśvara: So it doesn't have to be very long. But I don't think it will become popular unless they are in disguise, wearing Western clothes and a little bit of hair.

Prabhupāda: That cannot be. Somebody said, "Unless you become naked, you are not popular." But we cannot become naked.

Rāmeśvara: It's the same example for our book distribution.

Prabhupāda: No, we must be gentlemen. We cannot become low-class. Just dress like a gentleman.

Rāmeśvara: No, they will dress nicely.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. But formerly your father, grandfather, they had no long hair.

Rāmeśvara: No, they will not dress like hippie. They will dress nicely. [train stops again]

Prabhupāda: Then that is allowed. But we cannot imitate the hippies.

Rāmeśvara: No. I'm just saying that it is a little difficult if they wear their dhotī.

Prabhupāda: No, dhotī, I don't say. You have nice coat-pant. I don't say that you have to... I never said that. You have adopted it. [laughs] I never said that "You put on dhotī." But those who are sannyāsī, brahmacārī, their dress is different. But it doesn't require that one has to become a sannyāsī.

Hari-śauri: The wigs he's suggesting are just short ones, short-hair wigs.

Rāmeśvara: Yeah. As long as it's not hippie, it is all right.

Hari-śauri: Just medium.

Rāmeśvara: It has to be attractive. Gentlemen. I have taken this record, "Change of Heart," to the biggest record companies in America, and they are very encouraging. They think that we have got a very wonderful message.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact. That is a fact.

Rāmeśvara: They are astonished at the..., the words to the songs.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact.

Rāmeśvara: I think if this group is... If this is done...

Prabhupāda: Enechi auṣadhi māyā nāśibāra lāgi. Our message is to kill the māyā. This is wonderful message, undoubtedly. Enechi auṣadhi māyā nāśibāra lāgi, hari-nāma mahā-mantra lao tumi māgi: "Take this hari-nāma." It is very important message. [train starts again]

Rāmeśvara: In America, say a music group becomes popular, very popular. Then automatically, every time they make their record album, one million people will buy it in the stores without any salesmen. Automatically one million, it's considered very popular.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So make records "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa."

Rāmeśvara: And for each record our profit is $2.50. So $2.50 times one million records becomes millions of dollars.

Prabhupāda: Spend it for prasāda distribution. Don't squander it. Every cent should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa, not for sense gratification.

Rāmeśvara: Now, some of the money could be sent to India for ISKCON Food Relief.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Rāmeśvara: That would be very good.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That will make our movement very popular in India.

Rāmeśvara: They're always complaining that there's not enough money for food distribution in India.

Prabhupāda: So kindly send me as much as possible. Therefore these farming projects will be very nice.

Rāmeśvara: That'll be great, if we can use the money... Do you think I should set up a separate account for the records, so that all the profit is used for food distribution?

Prabhupāda: Why not? Very good idea.

Rāmeśvara: So that will be a special means of raising money for prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Rāmeśvara: This idea will be very popular with the devotees.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So now you can distribute...

Hari-śauri: [to devotees] Prabhupāda's going to take prasādam. Where do you want to take prasādam? [break] [train stops]

Rāmeśvara: That's the British propaganda, that they came to India and made India more civilized.

Prabhupāda: This is civilization, that running, congested, hanging on. These rascals...

Rāmeśvara: Their famous phrase was "The white man's burden."

Prabhupāda: Unless they made such propaganda, how they could stay? They must give some plea that "I am staying for their benefit." That was the propaganda all through. And any Indian who would agree to say in the League of Nations and when there is conference, "Yes, we are so much benefited," he would be made secretary, governor. The flatterer, he would be made governor.

Rāmeśvara: They kicked the British out, but they still have the British system.

Prabhupāda: They have learned this. They have been accustomed. And by nature they are not, I mean to say, dovetailed to this system of life.

Hari-śauri: Somehow or another, they just can't do it. They can't live like this.

Prabhupāda: And now we are going to Kumbha-melā, a religious assemble. In the Western countries you don't find so much.

Rāmeśvara: No. In the 1960s in America they tried to have such assemblies, but they simply were becoming naked and having drugs---LSD, marijuana---in the name of spiritual festival. I remember very prominent festivals in America, but everyone was simply naked. They thought that was spiritual.

Prabhupāda: Naked? Fully naked?

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Hari-śauri: They would hold the festivals sometimes in the hills with a stream. So that it was very popular; everybody would go to the stream and bathe naked. And then the TV would come and film. There was one big one that they had in England, and the front pages on all the newspapers was one hippie couple that... Someone had spread some foam everywhere, and in the middle of the foam this hippie couple were naked having sex, and they put the picture in all the papers. This was love and peace.

Prabhupāda: I have seen John...

Hari-śauri: John Lennon.

Prabhupāda: ...naked.

Rāmeśvara: Naked. With his wife.

Prabhupāda: That picture is in his sitting room. I was talking with him in his sitting room, and fireplace and... Of course, that [indistinct] Place was a very big place, and there was picture. [indistinct] glorious.

Hari-śauri: Cats and dogs.

Rāmeśvara: That's changed. America has changed, given that up a little bit. They do not have these big gatherings anymore. The hippie movement in America is stopped.

Prabhupāda: What is the next movement?

Hari-śauri: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [laughs]

Rāmeśvara: Hare Kṛṣṇa. They're just waiting now. They are waiting for something to happen.

Hari-śauri: All these religious, what they call the religious cults, came immediately after the hippies. That's the big thing then. There was the growth period for those. Now they're trying to destroy them. Of course, they won't destroy us, but they've succeeded in one or two other groups. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...below one person. In the name of religious men, because they are not civilized even, it is further, further. This is going on. Actually there was no such...

Rāmeśvara: And another thing that came out of the hippie movement is this abortion. Because the whole thing... The slogan was "free sex." So now they have free sex.

Hari-śauri: Women's liberation, that was another thing.

Rāmeśvara: All based on sex. Abortion, divorce---everything related to sex has increased.

Hari-śauri: They used to carry signs, "I want to control...., I want the control of my body," the women, the women's liberation.

Prabhupāda: That is woman's liberation.

Hari-śauri: Yeah. "I can do with my body whatever I like. Nobody can tell me what to do. If I want to kill my child, I can kill." [break] [train restarts]

Prabhupāda: The child has father's..., the life from father's property, and the mother is only giving shelter. She is not the proprietor. Even in other's, womb of other's wife, a child is born... I give birth to a child in other's wife, that is my child. Mother is considered the field, kṣetra. But when I till the kṣetra, field, the production is mine. This is idea. The land may be yours, but if I plow on it and produce food grains, that is mine; that is not yours. This is the... Even in other's wife, if somebody begets child, the child belongs to the father. There are many instances. [break] [train stopped] Mat-prāṇa-nāthas [Śikṣāṣṭaka 8] = "Still, you are My Lord." That is love. "My love is conditional. If you do to my liking, then I love you"---that is not love. That is not love; that is business. That business is going on under the name of love. A man and woman---"If you have got pocket filled up with money, I love you. If you have got beauty, then I love you." That is not love. That is lust! They do not know what is love.

Hari-śauri: They have no idea of actually who is God or what is God. They don't know...

Prabhupāda: Yes. They make God under his condition. That is not God. God cannot be under your condition.

Hari-śauri: God cannot have sixteen thousand wives. God cannot appear at all.

Rāmeśvara: They say that if God had all of these things, then He would have revealed them in the Bible.

Prabhupāda: Because you cannot, rascal, manage that. That is the difference between him and God. Kṛṣṇa had sixteen thousand wives and sixteen thousand palaces. You cannot maintain one apartment.

Rāmeśvara: In the Bible, Moses...

Prabhupāda: You tell them like that = "You are so poor that you are afraid to maintain even one wife. So how you can be equal with God?"

Hari-śauri: Well, they're not... His argument was that...

Prabhupāda: No argument! This is fact.

Rāmeśvara: Yes, this is fact.

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Prabhupāda: There is no question of argument.

Rāmeśvara: No. He's not arguing that.

Prabhupāda: "You cannot do. You are so poor that you are afraid to marry because you have to take so much responsibility."

Rāmeśvara: He wants to know, then, why didn't Jesus Christ say all these things about Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Jesus may be fool. That doesn't mean everyone should be fool.

Rāmeśvara: They believe Jesus came to this world to teach people about God.

Prabhupāda: "Jesus... Jesus had to speak to rascals and fools like you. Therefore he did not speak." This is the answer. "Because you are such a fool that Jesus said, 'Thou shall not kill'---your first business was to kill him. So you are so nice, advanced men. Now, what he'll speak to you? He knew that you are all rascals. Even the one word you cannot understand, 'Thou shall not kill.' So what you will understand? Therefore Jesus Christ did not say." Give them this answer. "Jesus Christ was perfect, but because you are rascals, he did not say, because you could not understand even his one word. You are so intelligent. His commandment is 'Thou shall not kill,' but your business is to kill him first. How far you are advanced and civilized, just imagine. And you want perfect instruction. You cannot follow even one instruction. That is your position." In this way try to understand. "Jesus had to deal with rascals like you. Therefore he... Even the ordinary moral principles you could not, what to speak of other things." Actually, that is the fact. Actually, that is the fact. He had to deal with rascals and fools. Is that civilization, that first of all argue, "Thou shall not kill"? That means you were all rascals engaged in killing business. Is that civilized men? Why he said like that? Is that very good philosophy? Men, they were so low class that they had to be stopped first of all, these sinful activities. That also, they could not. This is their position. And for the last two thousand years they could not. Such nice brain. They could not understand even one instruction of Jesus Christ. And you are proud of becoming Christian, rascals. "You do not know what is Christianity, what is Jesus Christ. You are all rascals." Tell them like that. What do you think?

Rāmeśvara: That's indefeatable, undefeatable argument.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "You could not understand."

Rāmeśvara: "Thou shall not kill..."

Prabhupāda: Although he spoke very cautiously, still you could not understand.

Rāmeśvara: "Thou shall not commit adultery."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: It's a very good counterattack, that "You try to criticize us, but actually what is your position?" They have no position. That man, he was trying to criticize Kṛṣṇa as being a concoction or whatever, but we can practically see that his own religion is completely useless.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that also I have given. Kṛṣṇa might have hundreds and thousands, but where is the pregnancy and contraception?

Rāmeśvara: And abortion.

Prabhupāda: So if sex life without this botheration, it is welcome. We welcome that. Sex is enjoyment; that is all right. But here it is condemned because it is entailed with so many botherations.

Hari-śauri: We can practically establish both points.

Prabhupāda: [train starts again] Just like sex life is enjoyment, but a person who is suffering from tuberculosis---his death. He'll die if he indulges in sex life. That is medical science. So "It is condemned in the material world, not in the spiritual world. If you have good health, you can enjoy sex life. But you have tuberculosis? You'll die. Your sex life is death, and their sex life is life. That you cannot understand. You have such a poor brain that you could not follow even ordinary moral instruction of Jesus Christ." Answer should be given like that. "If you remain with your poor brain, don't try to argue. Be satisfied with your poor doggish brain, hoggish brain. You are like pigs and dogs. What you can understand about religion? First of all try to train yourself to be free from the sinful activities. Then you'll understand what is religion." Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam [Bg. 7.28]. Ultimately, a person, sinful man, cannot go to the kingdom of God. Is it not? First of all stop this sex life; then talk of God. It is a fact. When the order of Jesus Christ, "Thou shall not kill," for the last two thousand years these rascals have never stopped killing. They are simply increasing slaughterhouse. And... So they are so poor in understanding, they say animal has no soul.

Rāmeśvara: That is their excuse.

Prabhupāda: But who cares for this excuse? It is not scientific. Is there any difference, anatomy and physiology, of the animals and the...

Rāmeśvara: They do not know what the soul means.

Prabhupāda: That's it. Now, when there is opportunity, condemn them like anything. It is opportunity to expose them.

Hari-śauri: We should do that? Expose them?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? When they are attacking, you must attack.

Hari-śauri: Yes. Attack them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is very practical = "Yes, Kṛṣṇa enjoyed sex. But where is abortion? Where is contraceptive pill?"

Hari-śauri: Actually, by practical example we can show that by following Kṛṣṇa, so many people are giving up intoxication, giving up so many sinful activities. But by following your Christian religion, it's not done them any good whatsoever. It's not changed their lives whatsoever. This man, he described our movement as very dangerous. On the radio he said, "This is dangerous," because we're trying to establish Kṛṣṇa as God and He's not stated in the Bible, and therefore we are very dangerous.

Prabhupāda: Christ is described as son of God, but where is the father? That means you are so rascal, you do not care to understand the father. And we are presenting the father, the father of Christ. And you are condemning. You do not know who is the father of Christ.

Rāmeśvara: His argument was that if God wanted Himself to be known as Kṛṣṇa, He would have...

Prabhupāda: But you do not know the meaning of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa means "all-attractive." That is God. That is God.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. I tried to explain. But he says Kṛṣṇa means that person who appeared in India five thousand years ago. That is Kṛṣṇa. So he says if God is Kṛṣṇa, then there would be some evidence in the Bible, but there is no evidence.

Prabhupāda: There is ev... There is evidence. Because... But you are so fool that you do not inquire, "If the Christ is son of God, who is God?" They never inquire. Why did you not inquire?

Rāmeśvara: He said that God spoke to Moses. God did not tell Moses that He was Kṛṣṇa. He told Moses that He is Jehovah.

Prabhupāda: Did Christ say that "Jehovah is my father"?

Rāmeśvara: [indistinct] That makes it very clear.

Hari-śauri: I can't remember ever seeing... Jesus never used a name. He only spoke about "my father."

Prabhupāda: And who is that father? Why did you not...? So here is the father. You should be obliged to us that we are bringing.

Hari-śauri: There are so many names anyway.

Prabhupāda: Then why not "Kṛṣṇa"?

Hari-śauri: Yes, exactly. Just like Allah means "the great one," so Kṛṣṇa means "the all-attractive one." It's the same God.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa was proved, and still He is proved. Who is reading others' book all over the world? Therefore He is God. Where is that book so respected as Bhagavad-gītā? Who is printing so many books? Not even Bible. They respected Bible. Why the foreigners are reading Bhagavad-gītā? That is the proof that Kṛṣṇa is God. During the Christmas festival we sold our books greatest number in the history. How many copies Bible you have sold? That is the proof here is God. Otherwise why Christians should purchase Bhagavad-gītā during Christmas holiday? And because Kṛṣṇa is God, therefore you have come to fight. Who is going to fight with Jehovah? Who is going to fight with Jehovah movement?

Hari-śauri: Well, just like in the Middle East area, if they want to describe God or if they want to glorify God, they refer to Him as the Almighty One. And that word that means "Almighty One" is Allah. So if in India they want to glorify God by calling Him the All-attractive One, and that word is Kṛṣṇa, then what is the wrong?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: This is a problem. Because they're such mūḍhas, as soon as there's a name and a form, they immediately associate with material nature, material personality.

Prabhupāda: Give me little tangerine.

Hari-śauri: Tangerine?

Rāmeśvara: I was just telling Jagadīśa that you said you were confident that the Indian government understands that this movement is turning the whole world towards Indian culture. So it seems logical that one day it will endorse us.

Prabhupāda: They are endorsing. They stopped cow-killing.

Rāmeśvara: They are endorsing?

Prabhupāda: They have stopped cow-killing.

Rāmeśvara: They stopped cow-killing. Prabhupāda said that it is directly our movement...

Prabhupāda: It is not Vinoba Bhave. It is I. And they are silent. Even Gandhi did not care to stop. Now stopped.

Rāmeśvara: They have stopped it because they see we are getting so much support?

Prabhupāda: Certainly. [pause]

Rāmeśvara: [indistinct] said for the first time, we are turning Christians into Hindus.

Prabhupāda: [aside:] No, no. One skinned. [pause] So you have all answers?

Rāmeśvara: Many answers. You have all the answers.

Prabhupāda: No, therefore I am teaching you how to answer. [long pause] So much land lying vacant. Yajñād bhavanti parjanyaḥ [Bg. 3.14]. There is no yajña; therefore there is no rain. [break] [train stopped] ...and it will increase. Because the people will increase their godlessness, so the rainfall will stop. Now lick up your motorcar. This is going on. Anavṛṣṭya durbhikṣa dāra-pīḍitaḥ [SB 12.2.9]. One side, anavṛṣṭi, there is no food grain; and government taxation. People will be so harassed, they will leave their hearth and home and go to the forest. Cannot manage. [break] ...God awakening your country to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Someway or other, there is agitation. This agitation must go on, and then turn it towards favorable time. Agitation is there. That is good. [train starts again] [japa] [break]

Rāmeśvara: They say that in the Vedas Viṣṇu comes first, and Kṛṣṇa is expansion of Viṣṇu, and we have concocted that Kṛṣṇa is the adi-puruṣa.

Prabhupāda: But he accepted that?

Rāmeśvara: No, we defeated that argument.

Prabhupāda: No, no... [break] The man who says that, so ask him that "You accept this, that Viṣṇu, there is, Supreme, and Viṣṇu's incarnation is Kṛṣṇa?"

Rāmeśvara: He accepted it.

Prabhupāda: "Then I accept you. Then you accept Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa, or this Veda.[?] Then I accept you. So there is no fight. You accept Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa; we accept." That's all.

Hari-śauri: Another one was that even the president of India, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he commented in the Bhagavad-gītā that you should not worship Kṛṣṇa, that the Bhagavad-gītā is not for worshiping Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is..., that rascal, Radhakrishnan says. Vyāsadeva does not say. Arjuna does not say.

Hari-śauri: But he was the president of India.

Prabhupāda: President was therefore kicked out. Māyā has kicked out on his face. [laughter] Who cares for Radhakrishnan? In India, who cares for Radhakrishnan? They worship Kṛṣṇa. So therefore they have urined on the face of Radhakrishnan. Say like that, [laughter] that "Indian people have passed urine on his head, and they are worshiping Kṛṣṇa. This is Radhakrishnan." Tell him like that. "Who cares for Radhakrishnan?" Do you mean to say they have stopped worshiping Kṛṣṇa in so many millions of temples? That is the proof = they have passed urine on the face of Radhakrishnan. Is that all right?

Hari-śauri: [laughing] Yes.

Rāmeśvara: And I found an article in the Time magazine about another translator of Bhagavad-gītā, Christopher Isherwood.

Prabhupāda: He is rascal, another rascal.

Rāmeśvara: They have reported that he is a homosexual.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Now who cares for all these nonsense?

Rāmeśvara: In regards to brainwashing, they claim that our life-style tends to take the devotee and isolate him from the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We hate to mix with you. No gentleman tries to mix with loafers. In England still, the rich quarter is different from the poor quarter. Is it not?

Hari-śauri: Well, not so much. It was though, formerly, very strongly.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Aristocratic will never live... Even in America, they don't like to live with the blacks.

Rāmeśvara: No.

Prabhupāda: [aside:] That child...?

Jagadīśa: He's in the next [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: So that separation... Crows will not like to live with the ducks and white swans. And white swans will not like to live with the crows. That is natural division. "Birds of the same feather flock together."

Jagadīśa: And honest men don't like to associate with thieves and criminals.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is natural. We are not interested even with these daily newspapers. We are interested Bhagavad-gītā. We don't keep any news. We know the dogs are barking, that's all. But that does not mean we have to mix with the dogs.

Jagadīśa: If you know that someone is committing criminal activities, then if you associate with them, you'll also become implicated.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ [Bg. 2.62].

Rāmeśvara: They have a list of five or six conditions, and they say if all those conditions are there, then it is a suitable atmosphere for brainwashing. And they say we are imposing those conditions on our members.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are brainwashing from bad to good. That is our business. We are washing the brain from all rascaldom. That is our business. You are... "Your brain is filled up with all rubbish things = meat-eating and illicit sex, gambling. So we are washing them." Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ, hrdy antaḥ-stho abhadrāṇi [SB 1.2.17]. Abhadrānī washing. Abhadrāṇi means bad things. The bad things should be washed off. Don't you cleanse your home? Don't you cleanse your room? Is not that brainwashing? So if you wash your room very cleansed, who blames you? But you are so rascal that "Why you are washing this garbage?" you are protesting. You are such an intelligent man. We are washing the garbage; you are protesting, "Why you are washing the garbage?" This is your intelligence. But intelligent men wash the garbage. That is the law of nature---cleanse. That we are doing. "According to Vedic civilization, you are actually untouchable. Now we have come to touch you; therefore wash you must, first. You are untouchable. In Indian civilization, dog is untouchable, and that is your best friend. So you are not touchable; therefore we have to wash you. And unless your brain is washed, you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. So it is necessary." Is that all right? Dog is your best friend. In India dog is untouchable. So "Man is known by his company." If your best friend is dog, then what you are? We can understand your position. Because you sleep with dog, you eat with dog, your best friend is dog, so what you are? You must be washed. It is a fact. Every woman, every man, has some dog.

Jagadīśa: Dog or cat.

Prabhupāda: Mostly dog. So "Man is known by his company." Your constant company is dog, so what you are? These are the way. Actually, according to Vedic... Why they do not allow Europeans in the Jagannātha temple? Because they are untouchable. According to Vedic civilization, these Europeans are untouchable. Muslims and..., untouchable. Not only foreigners, even in their own country, those who are not very cleansed, they are untouchable. Another's eatable things, they're untouchable. Just like hog. If you give him halavā, he will not take it. He will eat stool. Therefore hog is so abominable. Similarly, in your country there are so many nice foodstuffs. Milk is so much abundant. You do not know how to utilize milk. You are cutting the poor animal, and the rotten flesh you are... You do not know how to utilize the milk. Milk is nothing but blood. Those who are eating, drinking milk with different varieties of preparation, they are also utilizing the blood. But you are drinking blood and flesh directly. You do not know how to keep the animal alive and supply you constantly the blood and utilize[?]. That you do not know. You are so uncivilized. The man in the jungle, they eat meat because they do not know---they are not civilized---how to utilize the by-products. So you are in the same position. You do not know how to utilize the blood of cow scientifically. You are so uncivilized. You become... What is the milk? The milk is nothing but blood.

Jagadīśa: Even in the Bible...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Apart from Bible, I am speaking from practical point of view. What is milk? Milk is blood. If the mother is unhealthy, anemic, you cannot keep. It dries away[?]. Milk is transformed from the blood. That's a fact. Now our cows in New Vrindavan, they are supplying more milk than in other farms. So you do not know how to utilize blood. You are so uncivilized. And you are claiming to be civilized. You are untouchable. You do not know what is the... Yes, in our New Vrindavan the men from other farms, they come. They are surprised = "Milk can give, this much?"[?] You know that? They are uncivilized, cutthroat. And therefore they are now eating better. You are not civilized. Don't talk of anything. First of all be civilized. Give up this sinful activities. Then come to understand what is God.

Jagadīśa: In the Kṛṣṇa book you describe that the only person who can't understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the killer of the cow.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Animal. Why cow? Any animal.

Unless one is animal-killer, everyone welcomes God. This very word is used, vinā paśughnāt. Excepting these persons who are animal-killers, everyone will welcome Kṛṣṇa. It is so nasty thing, animal-killing. So you require thoroughly to be washed. Then you'll understand. Actually it is brainwashing. Civilized man, in the presence of so many nice grains, fruits, flowers, vegetables, milk---so many things---and you are eating meat, like the man in the jungle? Are you civilized? Does he think that the fruit, flowers and grains is meant for animals? It is meant for human beings. You do not know how to utilize it. You are in the state of the animals. You kill animal and eat. Don't claim that you are civilized. Therefore your brain requires to be thoroughly washed to become civilized, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then talk of civilization. Therefore Jesus Christ first of all requested you "Don't kill." That is also brainwash, to cleanse your brain. But you could not take the brainwash. Your brain is congested with so much dirty things that you could not take the instruction of Jesus Christ, and you claim to be Christian. Be ashamed. Don't come forward. Be ashamed. You have no shame even. You are so---what is called?---fool that you do not know what is defective. What is that English proverb? "Fools rush in where angels dare not." You are such a fool that you are rushing in to obstruct Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which is, even the demigods, they aspire after it. You are such a fool. You are rushing in. So we take pity upon you, and therefore we are trying to expand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But be sane; don't talk insanity. [break] And here you see big, big scholars that "Yes, here is Indian statement for the whole..." There are many saintly persons. Who cares for your Bible? And Bhagavad-gītā, all over the world. Even if you take Dr. Radhakrishnan, elected as authority, he has tried to comment on Bhagavad-gītā, not on your Bible. Has he done? Who cares for your Bible? He may speak favorably or unfavorably, that is Bhagavad-gītā. But he has not spoken a word upon the Bible. Who cares for you? Not only here, all over the world, who is going to take the Bhagavad-gītā, er, Bible? And we are selling millions of copies of Bhagavad-gītā. That is proof Kṛṣṇa is God. We can say that we have God at home. "Here is God." What do you think?

Rāmeśvara: When you argue like that, they cannot say anything.

Prabhupāda: We must. "No, you have taken Dr. Radhakrishnan authority. Has he commented on Bible? Why not? That is not even worth commenting on." We have to attack like that.

Hari-śauri: If President Nixon had written a commentary on the Bible, no one in America would accept it. So why should we accept Radhakrishnan's?

Prabhupāda: No, Radhakrishnan may say so, but who has accepted? You are, because you are a fool. Radhakrishnan might have declared that Kṛṣṇa is not God. Same argument---that people have passed urine on his face, and they are worshiping. They have not stopped Kṛṣṇa worshiping because Radhakrishnan has said, [indistinct]. Who cares for him? Vṛndāvana, there are five thousand temples. Every day thousands of people are coming. We have started Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma temple very recently, and thousands of men are coming. Who cares for Radhakrishnan? Daye mane nāpa ni more[?]. "Nobody cares for him; he becomes leader." What is the value of such leader? If somebody cares for that person, then he's leader. Nobody cares for him; he's leader for you because you are a rascal. You do not know anything. So he may be leader for men like you, but India, nobody cares for him. Is it not? Who cares for Radhakrishnan?

Hari-śauri: Nobody mentions Radhakrishnan.

Prabhupāda: Who cares for Vivekananda? Who cares for Dayananda? Nobody cares. They are doing their own business. Still, daily, two lakhs of contributions in Vaikuṇṭhanātha temple, Tirupati, still. Who is paying their money? Ordinary men. Who cares for Radhakrishnan? India is not so fool that by the words of Radhakrishnan they will stop worshiping Kṛṣṇa, will not worship Kṛṣṇa. India, although poverty-stricken, illiterate, but they have got their still... All, millions of people, will come in this melā. Who cares for Radhakrishnan? There are so many atheists came and gone; things are going on as it is. This is culture.

Rāmeśvara: Now in the Western countries, the standard of culture and education is coming from the idea of the Renaissance in Europe.

Prabhupāda: That is not culture. That is not culture. As soon as you change, that means it is not culture. It is mano-dharma, mental concoction. Culture is never changed, Renaissance and Fennaissance.

Rāmeśvara: This is something that has been constant for many hundreds of years, the idea that a man is learned when he is well-learned..., when he is educated in many different fields---literature, art, music.

Prabhupāda: That does not mean the original culture will be lost. That is not culture.

Rāmeśvara: No. But this is their argument, that the standard in America is that you become learned in different fields = science, music, art, literature. But in our Hare Kṛṣṇa movement we are isolating all these things and simply reading one set of literature---Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: And therefore our people cannot speak about art, music...

Prabhupāda: Yes. We want to stop your nonsense. That is our mission. Those who are intelligent, they have taken. And you also take. It will take some time.

Rāmeśvara: Another big argument is regarding the children. They say that "You believe in free choice. So suppose the children grow up and they want to go to college. But you have not sent them to a public school; therefore they are not eligible for going to college."

Prabhupāda: No, it is... They are saved from becoming like you or hippies. You'll become hippie after going to the college. So they are saved. You'll become naked and you'll have, like cats and dogs, sex on the street. But these children are saved.

Rāmeśvara: But what if they change later on in their life?

Prabhupāda: They have become Kṛṣṇa conscious from the very beginning. That is the perfection of life. They are perfect from the very beginning of their life. And you are going to school, college; you are becoming most uncivilized, cats and dogs. So what is the value of this education? Phalena means result. Result is hippie. So what is the use of Western... Stop all these colleges and universities. The sooner these are stopped, it is better for the human beings. We want to stop it. That is our...

Rāmeśvara: Of course, if we tell them that, then they will think that we are anarchists.

Prabhupāda: Whatever you say, but we want to stop this nonsense, that in the name of education producing hippies. We want to stop it. You may take us whatever you like. We want gentlemen, not this hogs' and dogs' naked dancing. But you are hogs and dogs; you accept. But we cannot accept. We are birds of the same feather. We are cleansed. Let them become hogs and dogs. But still the university platform. So we want to stop this. Is that education?

Rāmeśvara: Now they say if we are thinking of our members to be gentlemen, then why is it that when they go to the airports they are bothering so many people?

Prabhupāda: They are not bothering; they are educating. You take... A rascal, when he is advised... A thief when he's advised, "Kindly do not become a thief," he takes it botheration. But that is good advice.

Rāmeśvara: But they say it is invasion of privacy.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Why privacy?

Rāmeśvara: They say every man has the right to think the way he wants.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore I have got the right to think like that.

Rāmeśvara: So if I don't want to hear your philosophy, why are you imposing?

Prabhupāda: It is not imposing. It is good philosophy. We are canvassing, "Take it. You'll be benefited." And they are being benefited. Those who are reading, they are being benefited. Just like we are canvassing. We are Americans. You are not benefited. Therefore you are... Our Guru Mahārāja, Indian, he is not coming. We are doing, because we are benefited. We know we are benefited. Therefore it must be spread. That is our success. "Good thing must be given." Why you are advertising big, big hoarding, "Please come and purchase Ford car," "Please come and purchase Chevrolet car"? Yearly. Why you are canvassing?

Rāmeśvara: Because we think it is nice. To make money.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Why you are imposing your so-called goodness to others and spending so much money? Why you are doing?

Rāmeśvara: It is not as physical. It is just mental.

Prabhupāda: Well, physical, mental, that's right. You are so intelligent that you make distinction between physical and mental. They're all [indistinct]. You are so intelligent. Without mental, is there any physical? Then why you engage psychologist? They may be physical madman. Why you take him as psychologist? Why? Now you're discriminating mental and physical. If mental has nothing to do with physical, then why you employ psychologist to cure a madman from physical violence? You are so fool. Without mental pain, there is no physical pain. Without mental derangement, there is no physical disturbance. Who commits suicide? Who commits murder unless he's mentally deranged? You are very intelligent, that you want to make differentiation between physical and mental. There is differentiation. But cure physically; naturally they'll become sound. Otherwise why so many psychologists, psychiatrists, are employed in your country?

Rāmeśvara: It is a booming business, big business.

Prabhupāda: Our business is sai vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ [SB 9.4.18]. First of all is mentality. Man-manā mad-bhakto. Mental cure, then physically devotee. "Always think of Me." This is the cure, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto [Bg. 18.65]. Beginning = always think of Kṛṣṇa. This is the treatment. It is proved. Mentally he'll be cured. And then physically also. Nice [indistinct]. They do not know how things are happening. [japa] Thinking, feeling, willing. First of all thinking, then feeling, then willing, then working. [break] ...and spending for military strength. They are not performing yajña, so how there will be rainfall? There will be warfare, devastation. Most rubbish civilization, modern---misleading, soul-killing. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Very difficult to live with them. Still, we have to do this Kṛṣṇa's business. So we have to do our business. Let the dogs bark on. We don't care for it. If we remain sincere to Kṛṣṇa, that is our victory, not the result. Karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana [Bg. 2.47]. We have to act according to direction of Kṛṣṇa, that much. We want to see good result. Even there is no good result, we don't mind. We must be sincere to Kṛṣṇa, that "We have done our best." That's all. Without cheating Kṛṣṇa. That is our duty. As servant, we shall not cheat the master. Result, no result---that depends on Kṛṣṇa. We should not be sorry if there is no result. Never mind. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that "I have brought in Benares hari-nāma, but here they are full of Māyāvādīs. So if it is not sold, all right, I shall take it back." Caitanya Mahāprabhu said. So we should not be anxious whether the things are sold or not. But we must do our best canvassing work = "Please take it." That is our duty. [japa] [break]

Rāmeśvara: [reading] ...mukta-saṅgaḥ samācara [Bg. 3.9] = "Work done as a sacrifice for Viṣṇu has to be performed. Otherwise, work binds one to this material world. Therefore, O son of Kunti, perform your prescribed duties for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain unattached and free from bondage." Should I read the purport? Purport = "Since one has to work even for the simple maintenance of the body, the prescribed duties for a particular social position and quality are so made that the purpose can be fulfilled. Yajña means Lord Viṣṇu or sacrificial performances. All sacrificial performances also are meant for the satisfaction of Lord Viṣṇu. The Vedas enjoin = yajño vai viṣṇuḥ. In other words, the same purpose is served whether one performs prescribed yajñas or directly serves Lord Viṣṇu. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is therefore performance of yajña as it is prescribed in this verse. The varṇāśrama institution also aims at this for satisfying Lord Viṣṇu. Varnāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate [Cc. Madhya 8.58], from the Viṣṇu Purāṇa [3.8.8.]. Therefore one has to work for the satisfaction of Viṣṇu. Any other work done in this material world will be a cause of bondage, for both good and evil work have their reactions, and any reaction binds the performer. Therefore one has to work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, or Viṣṇu, and while performing such activities one is in a liberated stage. This is the great art of doing work, and in the beginning this process requires very expert guidance. One should therefore act very diligently under the expert guidance of a devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa, or under the direct instruction of Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself, under whom Arjuna had the opportunity to work. Nothing should be performed for sense gratification, but everything should be done for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. This practice will not only save one from the reaction of work but will also gradually elevate one to transcendental loving service of the Lord, which alone can raise one to the kingdom of God." [break]

Prabhupāda: The Bhagavad-gītā, there are many, but why ours selling so many? Because we have named "As It Is."

Rāmeśvara: Because...?

Prabhupāda: Because we have named Bhagavad-gītā "As It Is." Is that the reason?

Rāmeśvara: The main reason is because our men are pushing.

Prabhupāda: That is the reason.

Hari-śauri: It's different for the colleges.

Rāmeśvara: For the colleges, they actually accept the superior quality, but for the general class of men, it is not a book that they would ordinarily buy.

Prabhupāda: Canvassing. Canvassing.

Rāmeśvara: Yes, because we're canvassing. [break] "While we are living, let it be comfortable."

Prabhupāda: So why don't you make a solution that you'll not die? Then it is perfect.

Rāmeśvara: "We are working on that."

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then kick on your face. "We are working on it."

Rāmeśvara: But in the meantime, it should be as convenient as possible to live.

Prabhupāda: This is all childish. We cannot accept it. Madmen. In the history there is no such thing, and you are trying. And we have to believe it. These things are believed by rascals, and it is proposed by rascals. Rascals believe it. No intelligence at all.

Rāmeśvara: In America everyone has a very nice house with home entertainment by television and radio.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then why they are lying on the street? They have got house, then why they are...

Rāmeśvara: Big car...

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Why, in the Bowery Street, they are lying on the street in stool and urine? Why?

Rāmeśvara: Formerly they were doing that, but now again they are just living nicely.

Prabhupāda: Living nicely on the street. They have no nice place even. What is that? Lions? Go pay one dollar and live there?

Jagadīśa: YMCA. Salvation...

Prabhupāda: Something like that. They have no place to live. At night... Whole day they lie down on the street and beg and drink, and at night they pay one dollar and live.

Rāmeśvara: That's a very small minority of the people.

Prabhupāda: Well, there is. Why? You are so rich country, why? Why it is happening? Not small minority.

Rāmeśvara: And we have our vacations. We can travel anywhere in the world and visit, sightsee.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But you cannot say that everyone is very rich. That is not. We admit your contribution, but... The other day I was saying that aeroplane is contribution, but it is not safe. So long it is flying, it is all right, but any moment... Similarly, this civilization will be contribution like that. It is not safe. Because this life, you are enjoying very good house, very good society, but next life, if you are going to be a tree by nature's law, then what is the value of your this life?

Rāmeśvara: "But I believe in God. I go to church every Sunday, and I confess."

Prabhupāda: But you go to church, but you don't do anything what God says.

Rāmeśvara: "I am taught that God gave us all of these fruits to enjoy."

Prabhupāda: Not to follow His advice. You are so great devotee that you simply enjoy God's gifts, but what He says, you don't follow. You are such a devotee. "I enjoy my father's property, but I don't care for his advice." [aside:] Ask your mother to learn how to make kachorīs from Kulādri. Is it all right? [indistinct comments by devotees in background] [train slowing] Burhanpur[?]. Somebody wrote me a letter from this place, Burhanpur.

Rāmeśvara: [to child] Hare Kṛṣṇa! Hare Kṛṣṇa bol!

Child: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: So give him something. You have got fruit? Fruit? Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Ek minute. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bolo Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Child: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Rāmeśvara: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Ek minute.

Jagadīśa: Rāmeśvara, what's the name of this station?

Rāmeśvara: I can't read the Hindi.

Hari-śauri: Hare Kṛṣṇa bol! [devotees continue getting child to chant]

Rāmeśvara: They'll remember that Kṛṣṇa fed them. I think we should clean up.

Hari-śauri: There should be a sweeper somewhere.

Prabhupāda: No, we do our own business. Why do you wait for sweeper?

Hari-śauri: Yeah, we need a broom.

Prabhupāda: You take one paper, that black one there.

Jagadīśa: Do you want to take rest, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No.

Hari-śauri: [to child] Finished? It's too hot? He can't eat the samosā. It's too hot.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So is there any remaining in...?

Hari-śauri: Puffed rice is finished. But he can't eat the samosā.

Prabhupāda: So you can eat. He can take this thing, hand. Keep that paper and apply it in service. [sweeping noise] That's it. Yes. [sounds of door opening, closing; train starts again] The bathroom is free?

Hari-śauri: Yes. [break]

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is real religion. Religion cannot be "your religion" and "our religion."

Rāmeśvara: Yes. They were saying in essence that only the Jew or the Christian, he can represent God. Hare Kṛṣṇa, he cannot..., he does not represent God.

Prabhupāda: Now let us talk why he cannot or why you are the only. First of all you have to ascertain what is religion. Then it will be decided who has got the stock. Let the Christian or the Jews answer this question = What is religion?

Rāmeśvara: They cannot answer.

Prabhupāda: Then you have no religion.

Rāmeśvara: They do not know the answer. They'll speculate.

Prabhupāda: Therefore there is no religion.

Rāmeśvara: The Christian will say, "The Jew has no answer." And the Christian, he will say, "Religion means to accept Jesus Christ as your savior."

Prabhupāda: Why?

Rāmeśvara: "Because he came to earth as the son of God. He died for your sins."

Prabhupāda: Therefore religion means what is given by God---either directly or through His son or through His servant. That is religion. So if you do not know who is God and what He has given, then where is your religion? Religion means the law given by God. So you should know who is God and what the law He has given. Then you have religion. You say you do not know what is God.

Rāmeśvara: This man was saying that in the Bible there is a description of God speaking to Moses and Abraham, and He identified Himself as Jehovah, not Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is the main point, that what God said.

Rāmeśvara: What God said? He told Abraham to go to Israel and to worship only Him. He said, "There shall be no other gods. Just Me." And then He told Moses the Ten Commandments.

Prabhupāda: So God said that... God must say. So you say God = Jehovah; and we say God = Kṛṣṇa. What is the wrong?

Rāmeśvara: "The wrong is that Kṛṣṇa was a man who lived on earth five thousand years ago and..."

Prabhupāda: So Jehovah was God.

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So that means He was God, you are man, how you are hearing from Him?

Rāmeśvara: Because it's in the Bible.

Prabhupāda: It's in the Bible. Then, that whatever is the... We can say the same way, "It is in the Bhagavad-gītā." What is the wrong there?

Rāmeśvara: What can be said?

Prabhupāda: "This is the Bible," and "This is the Bhagavad-gītā."

Rāmeśvara: "But history documents that Kṛṣṇa came to earth as a man."

Prabhupāda: Yes. So do you mean to say God cannot come as man? And Jehovah came as God?

Rāmeśvara: "But in the Bible God reveals a certain aspect of Himself, and the personality of Kṛṣṇa seems to be very different from this."

Prabhupāda: In which way different?

Rāmeśvara: "Because He had all these affairs with the gopīs. He was very different."

Prabhupāda: God will be just like...

Rāmeśvara: "And He was a king with sixteen thousand wives. That seems to be very different from the God that is described in the Bible."

Prabhupāda: So if God... What is described in the Bible, God symptom, that He has no power to enjoy sixteen thousand wives? He's limited?

Rāmeśvara: No. He's unlimited, described as unlimited.

Prabhupāda: Then, sixteen thousand, sixteen millions He can have. Why, if He's unlimited? What is wrong there? If He's unlimited, why sixteen thousand? If He marries sixteen million, sixteen billion, still it is not sufficient. Otherwise there is no meaning of unlimited. Why you restrict God to sixteen or one? God is under your restriction, and He's still unlimited? That means you do not know what is God. Hmm? You do not know what is God. You are mistaken.

Rāmeśvara: But very often they will say, "It is not a question of religion that we are concerned with. It is a question of brainwashing and mind control. Your chanting so many hours a day, it's hypnotizing."

Prabhupāda: So, what is to you? That is my business. Why do you bother yourself?

Rāmeśvara: "But you are imposing it on so many young people."

Prabhupāda: We must impose. You impose they will not chant. That is your business. We must impose. That is my business. If you have power, you stop them.

Rāmeśvara: "But you're not giving them a chance to think when they chant so many hours."

Prabhupāda: Why shall I give you chance? You are thieves. You are coming to kidnap. Why shall I give you chance? You say to them, as we are saying, that "You chant." They are chanting. You make brainwash. You ask them, "Don't chant." That is your business. But that you cannot do.

Rāmeśvara: "But by this chanting, they develop a kind of blind faith, and they stop thinking."

Prabhupāda: So, what is to you and to your father? Let them do that. Everyone has got freedom.

Rāmeśvara: But they say that that takes away freedom, because it takes away the freedom to think.

Prabhupāda: So that is a controversy, that you want to take his freedom and still, you are accusing that, that way.

Rāmeśvara: Yes, that's actually the fact. The want to take their freedom, but they are accusing us.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So if you are sane man, let us sit down, first of all ascertain what is religion. Then we shall see whether your religion is genuine or my religion is genuine. First of all ascertain. Let there be an assembly, that "What is religion?" "We say that the law given by God is religion. Now you refute this." Nobody can manufacture religion. "God is one, and whatever He has given, law, that is religion. Now you refute it." Give them this challenge.

Rāmeśvara: "Well we may accept that the Kṛṣṇa movement is a religion, but..."

Prabhupāda: Apart from name---name is not very important. In your country you say water. I say jala, pānīya. Does it mean that because I say pānīya, it will be different thing? In different countries, in different societies, things are... We say am; you say mango. Does it mean the thing, substance, is different?

Rāmeśvara: No.

Prabhupāda: Then why do the rascals say like that? Because we say God "Kṛṣṇa," therefore He's not. Why is... This is nonsense. I can say in my language, you can say in yours, but God is one. That you have to accept.

Rāmeśvara: One of their standard arguments is...

Prabhupāda: Now, this is... First of all defeat that, that "Why do you give stress on the name? In different countries, in different societies, the same thing may be called by different names."

Rāmeśvara: Well, they're saying that the substance is different. Kṛṣṇa is one...

Prabhupāda: The substance is different; then God... There is no God. Either Kṛṣṇa is not God, Jehovah is not God. Just like gold...

Rāmeśvara: They say that because Kṛṣṇa displayed His activities when He was here...

Prabhupāda: Yes. God will play. That is God. God is not dead. Your God is dead. Our God is alive. That is the difference. God must be alive. Why God should be dead? [break] So you are under God's control. Therefore the first business is ascertain who is God. That is business. Then you say whether Jehovah is God or Kṛṣṇa is God. First of all you must know..., you must let us know what do you mean by God. If you describe, "I mean God... By the word God, I mean this," then see whether it is applicable to Jehovah or to Kṛṣṇa. It is not the name; it is the person and the symptom. Just like water is liquid. So you say water, I say jal. But the liquidity of water is the same. So first of all you know what is the nature of God. Then you may say "Jehovah," I may say "Kṛṣṇa," another may say something else. It doesn't matter. Water is water. That is liquid. That's all. So first of all ascertain what is the symptom of God. Can we challenge them, that "What is the symptom? What is the... How do you know that 'Here is God'?" Just like we understand "Here is water."

Rāmeśvara: Yes, but their idea is all nonsense.

Prabhupāda: So therefore prove that "You are rascal, nonsense. You do not know what is God."

Rāmeśvara: They think that God has nothing to do. He does everything by His thinking. Just like in the Bible it says... [train starts again]

Prabhupāda: That why do you say nothing to do, rascal? That is doing. He is doing by thinking; that means...

Rāmeśvara: Yes. It is said in the Bible He created the world just by His thoughts.

Prabhupāda: That means---that's all right---that God is so powerful that He can do by His thinking. We also admit...

Rāmeśvara: But why does He come down to earth to play with...

Prabhupāda: But that does not mean God is not doing. But He is doing in a finer way. You rascal, you do in a grosser way. God does in a finer way. But that does not mean God is inactive.

Rāmeśvara: And he was criticizing our description of God coming as a boar...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is God.

Rāmeśvara: ...and God coming as a tortoise...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is God.

Rāmeśvara: ...and a fish, half man, half lion.

Prabhupāda: That means God.

Rāmeśvara: He was criticizing that this is mythology.

Prabhupāda: That means you do not know what is God. God can come as He likes. That is God. But you rascal, you do not know what is God; therefore you are restricting, "He cannot come in this way." That is your restriction. Why God should be restricted? [knock] Yes?

Jagadīśa: Come in.

Indian man: Gurudeva, this carriage foreman is having some message from Gupta Saheb.

Carriage foreman: [Hindi] Namaskāra.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Namaskāra. [break] So rascal... [break] God is unlimited, and you are a teeny man. Why you want to limit God by your dictation?

Rāmeśvara: He says yes, it's possible, but...

Prabhupāda: How it is possible?

Rāmeśvara: Because God is unlimited, these things are possible, but...

Prabhupāda: Then why do you say that He cannot come as fish, He cannot...?

Rāmeśvara: Because if He wanted us to believe in these things, He would have told us on Mount Sinai, and He would have told us through Jesus Christ. Jesus said "I am the only way..."

Prabhupāda: But that I have already answered, that...

Rāmeśvara: Jesus Christ says, "I am the only way."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. But Jesus Christ did not say to you because you are rascal. You cannot follow even his one instruction. That is the answer. It is not the foolishness of Jesus Christ. Because you are so rascal, you cannot understand it. Therefore he avoided you, rascals. Because whatever he has said, you cannot follow. So what you will understand? Therefore he stopped speaking.

Jagadīśa: They killed him after three years.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are so rascal that his personal instruction is...

Rāmeśvara: Three years?

Jagadīśa: Three years' preaching and they killed him.

Rāmeśvara: Just three years' preaching.

Jagadīśa: Three years.

Prabhupāda: Why he will waste his time to rascals like you? And I understand that Jesus Christ said that "I have to say many things, but I did not say...," like that.

Jagadīśa: Yes, he said that.

Rāmeśvara: He said, "I have more to tell that ye cannot bear."

Prabhupāda: You cannot?

Rāmeśvara: Bear.

Prabhupāda: Means "you cannot understand."

Rāmeśvara: Yes. He also said...

Jagadīśa: Or "You cannot accept. You cannot bear."

Rāmeśvara: He also said, "Do not cast your pearls before swine." I think he was talking about them also. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: Yes. "You are swine; so therefore he did not say." You quote this = "But you are swine; therefore he did not say."

Rāmeśvara: New interpretation.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "You are swine." Yes, they are swine. Suar kavaca[?]. In India they say. Tell them like that = "You are swine. You cannot understand things. Therefore he did not say." That's a fact. If you are not swine, then God said, "Thou shall not kill," you killed him. So what you'll understand about God? You did not allow him to live, you are such a great swine. And his, what is called, disciple...

Jagadīśa: Judas

Prabhupāda: Huh? Cheated him. He was such swine. He was such big swine.

Rāmeśvara: And right after he was killed, anyone who followed him, they made the lions eat them. It's common knowledge that the early Christians were dragged into a big arena, and the lions were let out of their cages and devoured them. And the people were cheering. The public was invited to the event, and they were cheering.

Prabhupāda: That Rome.

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Your civilization is such.

Hari-śauri: Mr. Gupta's just sent a big basket full of oranges from Nagpur.

Jagadīśa: This is a tarshi? Are they named tarshi?

Hari-śauri: I'm not sure.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. It is [indistinct]. [break] Therefore it is mentioned.

Rāmeśvara: Now, one of their arguments is... Their main thing is to try to pretend that it is not a question of religion.

Prabhupāda: So, one thing is that if you have proved a swine, what is the value of your arguments? You have proved that you are a swine. So better stop arguing. What I say, you accept. That is good for you. Because you are descendants of swine, and actually you are doing that.

Rāmeśvara: Actually, on one television show they directly accused Your Divine Grace. They said that you have got us going out every day collecting money, and we have to send all this money to India, to Māyāpur, to build one temple so that you will become famous. And ultimately we will worship you as God.

Prabhupāda: Well, already famous. What is that famous?

Rāmeśvara: That was their argument.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. A famous man must be famous. He cannot be famous, famous. What you have done that you'll be famous? You are swine. You cannot be famous.

Rāmeśvara: They are subscribing to our newsletter. They somehow or other get our newsletter, and they read about our Māyāpur city costing so many lakhs and crores. So they became envious. That's all.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. We are selling books. That is my book. I can spend in such a way.

Rāmeśvara: It was just envy.

Prabhupāda: Envy is envy. But it is my book I am selling. So I can take the price anywhere. That is my right. You have nothing to say. You stop your men to purchase, that's all. Otherwise I'll sell anywhere and I shall spend anywhere. I have got the right.

Rāmeśvara: Normally they do not attack you.

Jagadīśa: We are voluntarily doing all this.

Rāmeśvara: We're voluntarily. But now one of their main arguments is that before someone joins the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement he has great affection for his father, his mother, his brothers, his relatives. And after he joins the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement he has nothing to do with them anymore, and sometimes he even calls them demon.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the fact.

Rāmeśvara: So they say this is the proof that we have brainwashed him. Because it is natural to have affection for your family.

Prabhupāda: Before that, he was accepting a false father. And now they understood that "He is not my father. He's my enemy." Therefore he's going... According to Bhāgavata it is said, "One should not become father if he cannot save his son from the imminent danger of birth, death, old age and disease." So the so-called father, they are not father. So after enter into Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, one understands that "He's my false father." So if he gives up the relationship, that means he's successful.

Rāmeśvara: So then they will say, "We do not want this movement in our country because it is breaking up the families."

Prabhupāda: You do not want? Who cares for you? We shall go on with our movement. Who cares for you?

Rāmeśvara: "You are ruining family life."

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Rāmeśvara: We are simply ruining our families.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. We are ruining the dog's family, cat's family. That's all right. We are entering into Kṛṣṇa's family. That is our improvement. What is the use of keeping with the dog's family, cat's family? The dog has also family. So to remain in the dog's family, it is very prestigious position? We have now constructed our own family, Kṛṣṇa family. We are entering there. What is the use of remaining in the dog's family, cat's family?

Hari-śauri: "But if you're actually followers of God, then why are you breaking up the families? Shouldn't you have love for everyone?"

Rāmeśvara: Because they say that the Ten Commandments says... One of the Ten Commandments, the fourth one, says "Thou shalt honor thy mother and thy father."

Prabhupāda: Yes, we honor.

Rāmeśvara: But that means by birth, the mother and father also. That's what it refers to.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: So they say, "So by your teaching they are spitting on their mothers and fathers."

Prabhupāda: No, not spitting. Who is spitting? Everyone... Just like he has got his father and mother. You are not spitting. Whenever father, mother, comes, he honors. That is your version, but his version is different. He loves his father and mother. He teaches him Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Hari-śauri: My mother testified to that, that when I was at home I was impossible to live with, and when they saw me afterwards, I was very nice.

Prabhupāda: Many. The Hayagrīva's father, mother.

Rāmeśvara: My parents think like that too.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: I could have no relation with them before, but now that I am a devotee, I actually want to help them, so the relationship is...

Prabhupāda: And there are so many fathers, mothers, they very much appreciate. And the... Our... None of our disciple is disrespectful to father and mother. Why? I never said that "You become disrespectful to your father and mother."

Hari-śauri: The only time there's any argument is if...

Prabhupāda: But if the father is demon...

Rāmeśvara: The devotees sometimes are disrespectful out of immaturity.

Prabhupāda: That is a individual fact. But...

Rāmeśvara: But they cannot condemn the movement because of that.

Prabhupāda: We never said that "You be..." I never said. And when Brahmānanda was initiated, his mother was standing. I asked Brahmānanda, "Take the dust of your mother's feet first. Then you offer me obeisances." Ask Brahmānanda. So he first of all offered his obeisances to his mother. I told him like that = "You have got good mother." I told him like that. "Otherwise how she has got a son like you?" I always say like that. I never said "Disrespect." But in particular case, if the father and mother is demon, he must give up their... It is not our business to...

Rāmeśvara: The whole controversy centers around this point of breaking up the family.

Prabhupāda: We never said. Breaking up the family... So many ways they are breaking up. The hippies are also breaking.

Jagadīśa: The fathers and mothers are also breaking. Divorce.

Prabhupāda: Father and mother, yes. Why they divorce?

Hari-śauri: Seven out of ten marriages.

Prabhupāda: Within two weeks, three---divorce.

Rāmeśvara: That's a very good point.

Hari-śauri: They have no family unit to speak of, anyway.

Prabhupāda: It is surprising. If one gentleman lives for life as husband and wife, it is a very surprising thing in your country that they have lived so long as husband and wife.

Hari-śauri: Yes, they become very glorified.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jagadīśa: They put them in the paper.

Prabhupāda: And so creditable. So this is your nation, that if one gentleman and lady remain as husband-wife for long time, it is a wonderful thing. So first of all decide what you mean by religion; what is the definition of religion. Our definition of religion is this, that the law given by God is religion. Now you refute it. That is everywhere. Just like any state, you... The law given by government is law. That is universally true. You cannot manufacture law at your home. What is given by your state, that is law. Similarly, religion means what is given by God, that is religion.

Rāmeśvara: So they say we are making up our own religion, because...

Prabhupāda: You cannot make own religion. Then it is not religion.

Rāmeśvara: That is what they accuse us of. They say that we teach our devotees that you can lie for Kṛṣṇa, you can steal for Kṛṣṇa, you can even kill for Kṛṣṇa. So this is immoral.

Prabhupāda: But do you say like that?

Rāmeśvara: No, they are distorting. But that is their ar... And just like they use your Back to Godhead article about Arjuna on the battlefield, that sometimes we may even have to kill our relatives for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: So, suppose if God said that "You kill," what you will do?

Rāmeśvara: Just like in the... Our argument is just that, that in the Bible, God told Abraham, "You must kill your son Isaac." This is a famous story in the Bible. So Abraham took his son and was ready to chop off his head. And God felt sorry and He stopped him. But that story is there in the Bible, that God told Abraham to kill his son, and Abraham was ready to do it. It does not mean that the Jewish religion is based on killing your son.

Jagadīśa: It was a test of his faith.

Rāmeśvara: It was a test of his faith. The same story of Arjuna = he had to kill for Kṛṣṇa. It's actually a good argument when they say that.

Prabhupāda: You have got sugar candy?

Hari-śauri: I don't think she packed any. Oh, sugar? She must have packed it. I'll have to find Pālikā, 'cause she has everything.

Rāmeśvara: They think that if our devotees are willing to do whatever you say, it must mean that they are brainwashed. They have given up their independence, so therefore they are brainwashed. If they are willing to follow anyone blindly, like a slave...

Prabhupāda: That is your instruction also. Jehovah says that you shall not worship any other God. So, Jesus Christ says also that you shall not worship. So that is the way of preaching. That is required.

Jagadīśa: That is also required in the military.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That also has been described by Professor Stillson? "Charismastic"? What is...?

Jagadīśa: Charismatic.

Prabhupāda: Charismatic spiritual master.

Hari-śauri: I think whatever was there was either packed in the basket or the cooker, and there was no sugar. So I'll have to... If you want, I can have one of these men go and find some.

Prabhupāda: Sugar?

Hari-śauri: Yeah, sugar candy.

Prabhupāda: Where you'll find?

Rāmeśvara: But the... Pradyumna has some sweet mango.

Prabhupāda: No.

Rāmeśvara: What is that?

Jagadīśa: Mango candy.

Prabhupāda: Mango candy? [Hari-śauri opens door and asks in another compartment]

Hari-śauri: Pradyumna, have you got some mango candy?

Jagadīśa: There are grapes also.

Prabhupāda: Grape candy?

Jagadīśa: No. Fruit.

Rāmeśvara: So actually, their arguments are not very... So therefore it is simply a plan of Kṛṣṇa to help give us some prominence, make us more well known.

Jagadīśa: Give us a chance to preach.

Rāmeśvara: Because their arguments have no substance.

Prabhupāda: Defeat them. "God cannot come as fish, why? What kind of God He is? All God the conception is whatever He likes, He can do. That is God."

Jagadīśa: When I heard the tape of this priest, this minister, and he was trying to cut down our religion, our movement, he was saying that "You believe that God came as a fish, as a tortoise, as a half lion, half man," it reminded me that whenever in the scriptures the demons try to blaspheme---like Hiraṇyakṣa tries to blaspheme against Lord Viṣṇu---Viśvanātha Cakravartī turns it around and makes it seem as if he's actually glorifying Him. You can't blaspheme Kṛṣṇa because whatever you say about Him is simply another glorification. They try to criticize, "Your God had sixteen thousand wives." Actually that's something wonderful. They just take it in the wrong way.

Hari-śauri: [in background] Is Pālikā in there? Listen, Prabhupāda wants some... Have you got any of that mango candy? Can you cut some fruit for Prabhupāda?

Jagadīśa: They're helping us to spread Kṛṣṇa's glories.

Rāmeśvara: Now they say... Just like in Los Angeles we have sued the family for two million dollars, two and a half million dollars, because they kidnapped their girl. So they say that the girl, she would not have done this, but because we told her to do it, therefore she did it. Therefore there is control. We are controlling her.

Prabhupāda: We must, because you checked her freedom.

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Why did you kidnap? Therefore we must teach him some lesson.

Jagadīśa: Everyone acts in such a way to please his friends, anyway. How come you can't...

Rāmeśvara: Their argument is that this girl who was kidnapped, she still likes her family, but now we have told her, "You must sue them." So therefore she is doing it. So therefore she is not free. She is... We are controlling her.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now you want to control her. We are controlling, but you want to control her. So if you can control, why shall I not control? Why you are poking your nose? We shall cut your nose. [laughter]

Jagadīśa: That's what we're going to do, too. [Hari-śauri returns with candy]

Prabhupāda: Yes. [break]

Rāmeśvara: I think we've used up all their arguments. They say...

Prabhupāda: First of all, our challenge is "What is your definition of God?"

Rāmeśvara: They will answer, "Let us first discuss the definition of brainwashing." They will say, "Do not talk of God. We are not trying to talk of God. We want to talk about brainwashing."

Prabhupāda: So first of all you define.

Rāmeśvara: Brainwashing?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: They say that brainwashing means that when you deprive a person of sleep, of food, you isolate him from the rest of the world, you have him chant something over and over again many times, in this way you can get control of his mind, and then whatever you want, he will do, just like a robot.

Prabhupāda: You first of all said that we are depriving with food. Where is this?

Rāmeśvara: This is their argument...

Prabhupāda: This is their argument...

Rāmeśvara: ...that we only let them eat twice a day, and even then, not only is there no meat, but there is very little protein.

Prabhupāda: That depends on him. If he likes to eat that kind of food, you have no right to enforce upon him. Then you are going to enforce upon him. There are different persons; they like different types of food. And food must be according to his own taste. Aguru chikhanna[?].

Rāmeśvara: Only twice a day.

Prabhupāda: But if he likes twice a day, why you give thrice? That is his choice.

Rāmeśvara: And sleeping only four, five hours.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Very little.

Prabhupāda: Because it is waste of time.

Rāmeśvara: This makes his mind very weak.

Prabhupāda: You rascal, you have nothing to do. You sleep. Napoleon used to sleep for one hour, two hour, he was such a busy man. So they are so busy in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they have no time to sleep. Every great man does not sleep very much. The lazy men... [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [Hindi] Acchā. Sleeping is simply waste of time. So this is... If he does not sleep more, it is a sign of greatness.

Rāmeśvara: But they have got these crazy fools in the name of psychologists. And these psychologists...

Prabhupāda: We have got our psychologists.

Rāmeśvara: These psychologists say that if there is a lack of sleep, then the mind becomes very susceptible to another person's ideas. You can get control of him by depriving him of sleep. Just like they say... There was a war once in the country of Korea between America and China, and the prisoners, the Americans, were captured and put into these prison camps, and the Chinese tried to convert them to Communism by lack of sleep and lack of food---torture. In this way, they say, this is widely accepted that if a person has too little sleep or too little food, then you can break his will and change his life by force. [train starts up]

Prabhupāda: So that is all right. Then you break. Now he's quite fit for your conversion. He's now weak. You convert him to your ideas. [laughter] We have made the ground.

Rāmeśvara: That's what they want! They want us...

Prabhupāda: Then why do you kidnap? You say.

Rāmeśvara: They want us to give the devotees to them, and then they will deprive them of food and sleep and deprogram him.

Jagadīśa: But we're already depriving him of food and sleep.

Prabhupāda: But they are open to everyone. Why do you kidnap? Why do you steal like a thief?

Rāmeśvara: For his own good.

Prabhupāda: Then you are thief. Then thief can also say like that, "For my good I can steal."

Rāmeśvara: "It is the lesser of evils."

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But God does not allow.

Hari-śauri: When a person first comes to us, he's coming voluntarily, and he's not... At that stage he's not deprived of sleep, he's not deprived of eating. But still, he's coming, voluntarily. But when they take him away, they have to take him by force...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: ...to change him.

Rāmeśvara: They say to break him of the spell. We have got a spell on him.

Prabhupāda: But why he again comes back? You could not break.

Rāmeśvara: Sometimes they cannot break, because we have planted our...

Prabhupāda: In most cases they come back.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. I would say four out of five come back.

Jagadīśa: We have given him knowledge.

Prabhupāda: It is not a prison house.

Rāmeśvara: They say, "You cannot deprogram a Christian because Christianity is real. Therefore this is the proof that Hare Kṛṣṇa is false."

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Rāmeśvara: That there is no record of any Christian...

Hari-śauri: We were all Christians, and we changed.

Jagadīśa: There's a record of a Christian deprogrammed = Peter himself. Christ prophesied that "Before the cock crows you'll deny me three times," and he did. He was deprogrammed just by his association.

Rāmeśvara: That was Peter?

Jagadīśa: Yes. [train going again]

Hari-śauri: His own... One of his twelve apostles put him on the cross, Judas Iscariat. He was one of the original twelve. He betrayed Jesus for some money and put him on the cross, killed him. He killed him.

Prabhupāda: That's right. This is the history of your religion. You kill Jesus Christ; you deprive him.

Hari-śauri: There's still that point that when a person comes, he's coming voluntarily. We have no chance to deprive him of sleep or food, because he's living outside. He's not living inside.

Rāmeśvara: They say that when a man comes to join us, immediately we take away all his money and all his possessions, so in this way we are depriving him of his property. [indistinct---train noise]

Prabhupāda: That is individual surrender. We have not rendered that way. He surrendered individually.

Hari-śauri: When Christ preached, he told them to "Give up your work; give up your family; give up everything. Don't try to earn a livelihood. Don't worry about where your food will come from. Don't worry where your cloth will come from." He said that in his instructions to his disciples, to his apostles. I think it's in the Acts according to St. Matthew.

Jagadīśa: His disciples simply said [indistinct].

Hari-śauri: He gave the example that "The birds, they do not try to make a living, but God is feeding them. So do you not think God will help feed if you go out and do His work?" That is what he said to them. [indistinct] And they say they are Christians, but actually the real Christianity is what we are practicing.

Rāmeśvara: And also Dr. Harvey Cox of Harvard, he quoted one section of the Bible where Jesus was preaching and his mother did not like it, and his father, and they came to get him away. They thought he was gone crazy, that he was preaching so much about God. So they came to his place where he had gathered many people. They wanted to deprogram him. And Jesus said, "You're not my mother. You're not my father. My real father is in heaven, and my real relatives are those who believe in God."

Prabhupāda: Where is that?

Rāmeśvara: That's right in the Bible.

Prabhupāda: [break] Because there are many fanatics. Hmm?

Hari-śauri: Through America it's full of persecutors.[?] These people are very, very hateful towards our men. Europe is all right. Europe...

Prabhupāda: Europe? Germany...

Hari-śauri: Germany is bad.[?]

Jagadīśa: North America would be... South America?

Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda, if you did come to America, the best idea is if you went to a farm like the New York farm and just made that your headquarters. And the devotees could visit. They could come and see you. Otherwise, the country in Pennsylvania is very beautiful in the spring and the summer---very peaceful.

Hari-śauri: New Vrindavan you could go when the palace is done.

[long conversation at end of tape about deprogramming and psychology---Rāmeśvara talks most of the time---can be transcribed if the tape is slowed down and the train noise is reduced.]

Rāmeśvara: ...how they are trying to make it legal.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Rāmeśvara: They themselves say that the ratio of members of the Moon group, compared to others that get deprogrammed, is ten to one.

Jagadīśa: All others put together?

Rāmeśvara: Yes. All others put together makes up one. And the Moons, the people who follows this Reverend Moon, ten of them to every one of everyone else. Ten to one they are deprogramming them, what they call the Moonies. Because he has no philosophy; he is a false religion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And what about us?

Rāmeśvara: I think total may be between thirty-five and fifty devotees who have been exposed to this deprogramming, and out of that maybe ten or fifteen have left.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Rāmeśvara: So maybe ten have left. But most of the devotees who leave, it is because they are not very strong, or else they are sentimental about Christianity. And the insidious thing is that after they are deprogrammed, they start working against us.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Rāmeśvara: Some of our devotees, after they have been deprogrammed or brainwashed by these people. Then they hate us, then they go on radio and television and speak against us. And they boast...

Jagadīśa: [indistinct]

Rāmeśvara: It's part of their... Actually, it's part of their therapy.

Jagadīśa: They are forced into it. This girl in Toronto who was kidnapped by Patrick finally came back after so many months. She said that while she was kidnapped she was in such great fear, and she had to say whatever they told her to say. She had to do whatever they told her, otherwise she was afraid they were going to kill her.

Rāmeśvara: Or rape her.

Jagadīśa: Use extreme violence.

Rāmeśvara: She was afraid she would be raped. So she became their slave.

Prabhupāda: So why not take her statement?

Rāmeśvara: We did. In fact we...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Rāmeśvara: In fact we flew her to Los Angeles, and we had a big press conference, and she was explaining this to the press.

Hari-śauri: Was it broadcast?

Jagadīśa: No. But afterwards in Toronto she made a statement in the press through her attorney, and she..., she deplored it. Before she had become a devotee, her father used to beat her, and he was very cruel to her. And after she came back to the movement she made a statement. Her father was publicly exposed as a complete nonsense. Although he was asked to make some comment, he couldn't make any comment at all. He was simply..., his life was ruined then. He was humiliated, in the whole city of Toronto, because of his supposedly good intentions for his daughter. But he did nothing but beat her and torture her and put her under extreme psychological stress.

Rāmeśvara: Just like this devotee in Boston... [break] Hero[?] It is because of him that Ādi-keśava Mahārāja is now indicted. So his father captured him by some tricky, legal maneuver, and they put him in a hospital, a mental hospital, and there they administered electrical shocks to try to convince him to give up Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They gave him electrical shock, electricity. This is called, in the psychological field, shock therapy. It’s actually torture, but they make it seem like it is medically scientific. Shock therapy. So they were torturing him with electricity. The psychology in America is the biggest racket. It is a false science, and they are being paid so much money. It is becoming a very big profession, very lucrative.

Jagadīśa: They are like materialistic priests. Priests of material. They are the high priests of material science.

Rāmeśvara: Millions of people go to see these psychologists for analysis and therapy, sometimes three days a week, five days a week, and it costs them hundreds of dollars per session. And there is a small group of psychologists who have "discovered" that what we are doing is brainwashing. So therefore it appears to be coming from a professional scientist. Therefore people take it seriously, this charge of brainwashing. But meanwhile, these psychologists who are saying that we are brainwashing, their motive is to become..., to develop a very good reputation to increase their business.

Devotee (1): What about the parent class?

Rāmeśvara: The parents sometimes will hire these psychologists once their son or daughter has been kidnapped = "Please, you deprogram him, and here is $5000." So they are doing this for money. But because they are professional psychologists, people take them seriously. They are supposed to be scientists of the mind, but when you were giving your philosophy book and you were discussing the area of Freud, you exposed them all as rascaldom. We published that in Back to Godhead. His idea was that all the problems that bother the mind are based on the restriction of sex life. So if you can help a person remember all his difficulties with his mother and father and childhood, in this way the ultimate goal is to make him feel not guilty about having sex. Then he will have no more anxieties. That was his theory, that everyone has got anxiety because they feel guilty about sex. This is psychology = how to increase sex life. So people are paying lakhs and lakhs to these doctors = "Please, make me feel free of guilt so that I can increase my sex life unlimitedly." They are paying how to become free from feeling guilty.

Devotee: Also Rajneesh. He has the same ideas. [indistinct]

Rāmeśvara: These psychologists who claim that we are brainwashed, they have never conducted any studies on our devotees. So their whole thing is fraudulent.

Devotee: They have no [indistinct].

Rāmeśvara: No, but I'm saying we do. But I'm saying that the, that the...

Prabhupāda: [indistinct] they are not in our presence.

Rāmeśvara: Yes, they are, and they say that these other psychologists are very unethical because..., and unscientific because they making charges against us without having studied us. They are not interviewing our devotees, they are not testing us to see if we are brainwashed, but they are making so many false charges, which after all are attacks against our religion. So for a psychologist to attack a religion is very unethical.

Hari-śauri: It's horrible.

Rāmeśvara: They are not highly respected by other psychologists.

Prabhupāda: They are simply [indistinct].

Rāmeśvara: But the people in general respect them. They take them as authority. But they are simply cheating. They claim that we are brainwashed, but they have not conducted any research, they have not done any studies. It is completely unscientific, and they are cheating and fooling the public. Because of their professional reputation, they make a statement and everyone accepts it as authority. So gradually the other psychologists are turning against them. But it is very gradual. [break] The whole profession is full of scandals. Like in California, they have these state financed hospitals for the mentally retarded, people who are born mentally retarded. And six psychologists who work there have just gone to the court, and they have made a confession, "Yes, we are guilty of murder." They were in charge of this mental hospital, and secretly they were torturing the patients. These are professional psychologists. That’s why Governor Brown was so anxious to have us go there and other religious leaders go there to help purify the atmosphere, because these psychologists were torturing the patients. And because they were mentally retarded, they could not reveal it to anyone. They were administering these electricity and so many other methods, brutal torture.

Jagadīśa: Rākṣasas.

Rāmeśvara: Rākṣasas, and calling themselves professional scientists, psychologists. And they just confessed to manslaughter, six of them. So the whole field of psychology is being..., just full of scandals.

Jagadīśa: [indistinct] of patients.

Rāmeśvara: There is one psychologist who is very famous. His name is William---I think his first name is William---Erhart. And he has got a movement called e-s-t, est, and this movement is based on the theories of certain famous psychologists. And what they do is they take hundreds and hundreds of people to a retreat for the weekend, and for long, long hours, in group sessions, hundreds of them at a time, they simply fight with each other, yell at each other, scream at each other. They curse each other. And the idea is that in this way you purify yourself. You get rid of all your animosity, and all the dirt within your heart comes out, and then you go back to life purified. And they have to pay them hundreds and hundreds of dollars for this medical treatment. And all it is is bringing people together and having them yell at each other for maybe forty-eight hours. Very little sleep, very little food, just yelling at each other, and in this way it purifies them.

Jagadīśa: The philosophical basis is the [indistinct].

Hari-śauri: He himself, he gets up on a platform with an audience, and then he starts to verbally blast them and blaspheme them and malign them and criticize them, like that. And then when people start to object, he blasts them and reduces them to tears like this, and then he explains to them that that is cleansing them psychologically.

Rāmeśvara: Cleansing the dirt from the heart.

Hari-śauri: Breaking down all the barriers and making them a free person.

Rāmeśvara: He is making millions of dollars by this cheating. Millions of dollars. Because they have to pay a lot of money to go away for a weekend to a fancy retreat. This is psychology. [end]