Morning Walk , Bombay , 1977-01-02

Dr. Patel: She had a very religious background.

Prabhupāda: Women are generally...

Dr. Patel: They're more religious, yes. My children... My son does not eat, I told you the other day, even tomatoes. The boy has passed examinations, so he's going to States for the fellowship, and I don't know what he'll do there.

Prabhupāda: [laughs] No. If you don't like to eat tomato, who is going to force you? That is not... [break]

Dr. Patel: Hindu, that is wrong nomenclature. There is no Hindu dharma. It is a... Hindu is a way of life. Even Muslims live the same way, even Christians live the same way, [indistinct] in the family. The sanātana-dharma is the real word. They just use it and then everyone says. I had it in a letter to American Consul about this matter. In there I mentioned the sanātana-dharma. I have said sanātana-dharma, not Hindu dharma. I have mentioned like that. Real religion is the Vedic religion.

Prabhupāda: Because the religion actually means the law given by God. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Religion is not manufactured.

Dr. Patel: One ācārya has said, dharmāgnira sadācāra śruti smṛti prapādita[?]. What is mentioned in the śruti and smṛti, that is dharma. Sadācāra. You cannot say...

Prabhupāda: Basic principle is that it is made by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Now there are books, how to carry out the order. And the ultimate ending = how to become faithful to the [indistinct]. Just like good citizen means faithful to the government. Unfortunately rascals, they do not have any idea the supreme controller, supreme government. They take everything automatic.

Dr. Patel: Vaiṣṇava is a good citizen of the government of God. That is Vaiṣṇava.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is dharma. And Kṛṣṇa teaches that dharma = sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. Who will surrender unless he's a Vaiṣṇava?

Pālikā: Śrīla Prabhupāda? This morning you would like to take your breakfast after the program or after resting? Because I do not want to prepare the idli...

Prabhupāda: No. Later.

Pālikā: Later.

Prabhupāda: All other dharmas are cheating.

Dr. Patel: Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja.

Prabhupāda: This is dharma.

Dr. Patel: Sarva-dharma means all other vocations, I would say. Dharma means he is..., whatever vocational thing, therefore..., is one of the, I mean, interpretations. "All vocations you leave and come to Me only and be My bhakta." That is... I would... Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66].

Prabhupāda: Yes. God is great; we are small. The small's business is to serve the great. That is going on everywhere.

Dr. Patel: And mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja means "You do work according to My dictate. That is My śaraṇam."

Prabhupāda: This is śaraṇam. Śaraṇam... Not that you remain independent from śaraṇam. No.

Dr. Patel: That means you obey the infallible laws of God.

Prabhupāda: God says man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām [Bg. 18.65]. This is dharma.

Dr. Patel: They are thinking of something psychological, sir. If you think of a particular thing, then you become merge in that. Practically your mind becomes so... That is how the researches are carried out by them. Nobody [indistinct]. You become mad on that. You become mad on Kṛṣṇa, you get...

Prabhupāda: It is natural to serve God, to remain faithful to Him. This is natural. And artificially you are trying to be independent. This is the Māyāvādī... Still they are trying to become God himself.

Dr. Patel: They, sir, I have, after we met..., first I met you, some previous time, I made an extensive study of both the sides of Vaiṣṇavism as well as the same conclusion. I think they are falling short of the final [indistinct]. Once they say that they are in Brahman, they are final. But there is Para-brahman also. That Brahman is nothing but a jyoti of Para-brahman. That they forget.

Prabhupāda: That means knowledge.

Dr. Patel: And I think, sir, even then Śaṅkarācārya has not meant that we must be short of that. He was also worshiping, was he not? He was worshiping Para-brahman.

Prabhupāda: He has given a commentary on the Bhagavad-gītā. In the beginning he says nārāyaṇaḥ paraḥ, "Nārāyaṇa is transcendental."

Dr. Patel: But these fellows are misinterpreting him later on.

Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. The whole world is full of demons. And they are demons. Who declare himself "I am God," he's a demon.

Dr. Patel: Only one who has actually realized Para-brahman and becomes the real bhakta of Brahman, he has got a right to say Brahma... Unless he becomes brahma-bhūta [SB 4.30.20].

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
na śocati na kāṅkṣati
samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām

Then he becomes brahma-bhūta. Otherwise he cannot become. [indistinct Sanskrit] Brahma-bhūta is the first stage. This they consider the final. I mean, that is my understanding. I don't know; I may be right or wrong. But I want to [be] corrected by you.

Prabhupāda: Brahma-bhūta... Jīva-bhūta, everyone is thinking, "I am this body." That is jīva-bhūta. And when [he] understands that "I'm not body; I'm within the body," that is brahma-bhūta.

Dr. Patel: That is ādya. [indistinct] Perpetually Brahman.

Prabhupāda: No. This is the beginning of spiritual knowledge. Therefore Kṛṣṇa begins from this point, that "Why you are thinking that you are one of the family members? This is bodily concept."

Dr. Patel: First and second and [indistinct] this, that nobody is your relative, and, I mean, all of body dies, but the soul can never die. This is the body. Body has no value. Lot of mosquitoes, you know? On your side [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: Mosquito? Here?

Hari-śauri: There's a few.

Dr. Patel: What is this?

Hari-śauri: This is a [indistinct].

Dr. Patel: What is this? Why not cover at least your legs? There's a lot of mosquitoes in here.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Dr. Patel: If there's biting, [laughs] then here you don't get malaria but you get elephantitis.

Prabhupāda: Maybe elephantitis. [indistinct]

Dr. Patel: I know, because the elephantitis, that's very common in the [indistinct]. The mosquitoes are infected by elephantitis germ, and they infect you. These mosquitoes are Culex type of; they are not Anopheles. The Anopheles they carry malaria; Culex carries this elephantitis. All these villages on the coastline, right from Ratnagiri up to Dvārakā, whole coast is infected by elephantitis. Everywhere you go you see big, big leg. In fact it is right from Bhubaneswar. On Bhubaneswar sea, water, these mosquitoes breed even in saltish water. They are those [indistinct] type of mosquitoes. I mean I have made a special study of malaria---I am a malariologist---so I have studied all the types of mosquito, and that particular mosquito on that coast is called Sundaya[?], because they came right from Sundar islands.

Prabhupāda: Sundar islands. Sundarban, Bengal.

Dr. Patel: Sundarban has gone in Pakistan side.

Prabhupāda: Still in West Bengal. Sundarban is near Calcutta, about fifty miles.

Dr. Patel: All water-logged country.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Dr. Patel: All water-logged.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There are big, big tigers, big, big snakes. That Bengal tiger is famous. That tiger, his tail sometimes ten feet.

Dr. Patel: Bengal tigers are very ferocious. They are all man-eaters. Here in Gujarat... Lions are only in Gujarat in India. Those lions walk about like dogs when you are in the jungle. They don't, I mean, attack any human beings. Whole of India only that is the place where lions are found. [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: Big lions?

Dr. Patel: Big lion. They have counted, there are not more than 300 lions now in the jungle.

Prabhupāda: Why? They were killed?

Dr. Patel: That is in..., just near Junagadh, that big jungle.

Prabhupāda: Central India also there are lions.

Dr. Patel: There are no lions anywhere, sir. There are lions only in Africa and India in this place. It is a statistic. [indistinct] Not even South America, anywhere. Central..., this Gujarat, this particular jungle, and Africa.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: Africa they have hunted down all the lions on safari.

Prabhupāda: Killing business.

Dr. Patel: Huge. They have killed them at random. There is a very bad disease called sleeping sickness. These sleeping sickness germs, they are common in the wild game and wild animals and antelopes in Africa. That we found out. And from there you know a type of fly called tsetse fly, he bites them. Just like the flies, you know, several flies, they bite those animals, then when you go in the jungle they bite you. When they bite you they transfer the germ from animal to you, and you get the sleeping sickness. Now the latest sleeping sickness medicine is dependable; I mean nobody can die. But to arrest this disease in Central Africa, they'll kill all the game. Still they have not been able to arrest this sleeping sickness, eliminate.

Prabhupāda: Because this is only theory; therefore I don't believe that. Simply theory.

Dr. Patel: It's more common in Congo, in northern Rhodesia, part of Rhodesia and Uganda. [break]

Prabhupāda: When they pour water... [end]