Room Conversation , Bombay , 1976-12-31

Prabhupāda: ...so glorious. Glorious. He's glorious. That's all right. But kaniṣṭha-adhikārī will imitate his behavior, but he is not fixed up. Therefore it is not good for him. He is forbidden. This is...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's forbidden to hear from a nondevotee.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They will commit so many mistakes, and they'll take it for granted. Just like this "nitāi-gaura-rādhe-śyāma." That is avoided for kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. There are so many mistakes, rasābhāsa. So two things are there always, two sides = one for the mahā-bhāgavata, one for the ordinary kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī. So in the temple it is to be supposed generally for the madhyama-adhikārī and kaniṣṭha-adhikārī especially. So in the temple we should not...

Hari-śauri: We should just listen to whatever the ācāryas have...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: I remember once before, a few years ago, you sent a letter out saying that no one should try to compose songs or...

Prabhupāda: Yes. I do not encourage. What they will compose? They have no realization. But they're speaking something about Kṛṣṇa. That's his beginning. Just like a child, he speaks half-broken. That is not language. It has no meaning. But still the child, "Ah, ah, you are so nice, you are so nice, you are so nice." Because he's trying to speak something = "Papa, mama." And mama is... Not that his words are complete.

Hari-śauri: When we go out and preach, and we just repeat or try to repeat whatever we've heard from the spiritual master, but we may not have fully realized what we're speaking about, does that somehow or another reduce the potency of the Gītā or the Bhāgavatam or...?

Prabhupāda: Yes, realization takes time. Therefore there is no question of realization. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says you simply repeat as Kṛṣṇa says. That will save you.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Just repeating.

Prabhupāda: The so-called political leaders, they have no realization, but they manufacture their ideas. That is dangerous. Mislead themselves and others. In Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said, ācāryopāsanam. Amānitvam adambhitvam [Bg. 13.8]. This is the process of knowledge. These so-called scholars and politicians, they have no ācārya. Instead of being amānitvam, they're mani...: "I have become a leader, so whatever I shall say, it will be accepted." This is going on. Very bad. It is clearly said, as soon as you give up the ācārya system it is rotten. Sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa [Bg. 4.2]. So things which is rotten, what you'll get benefit? That is going on.

Therefore in spite of so many Gītā commentators, big, big leaders, scholars, not a single person is converted into a devotee. Not a single person amongst their followers. It's useless talking. Therefore it is forbidden. Avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇaṁ pūtam... [Padma Purāṇa]. Because they are not Vaiṣṇava, politicians and..., reject them immediately. Immediately. That is the injunction. I wrote Mahatma Gandhi that "You are so respectful. People have got... Now you have got your svarāja. Please take Bhagavad-gītā seriously and let us preach."

Dr. Patel: Sir, Raj Gopalacharya in his commentary, he has mentioned that Bhagavad-gītā should be learned through the ācāryas.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: As Gopalacharya has commented. He was a Vaiṣṇava.

Prabhupāda: Raj Gopalacharya was sensible man amongst the whole lot.

Dr. Patel: He was a Vaiṣṇava cult.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I know. Chakravarty. So [indistinct], I say that amongst the whole lot he was a sane man, Raj Gopalacharya. Because by culture he's a Vaiṣṇava. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...agreement with Jawaharlal Nehru.

Dr. Patel: He never was in agreement.

Prabhupāda: Not a single item. He therefore resigned. He wanted to form his own party.

Hari-śauri: Who's that, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Raj Gopalacharya.

Dr. Patel: If they had followed Raj Gopalacharya this country would have been far better in knowledge. Raj Gopalacharya. That is because he was paraṁ bhakta, to tell the truth, always.

Prabhupāda: Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate [SB 5.18.12]. Therefore he was qualified. Anyway, if you are interested in Bhagavad-gītā, how you can misinterpret? How you can put your own words to mislead people? How much misleading this is.

Hari-śauri: Actually, they're not interested in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: I knew all these things, but what I am? I have no position.

Dr. Patel: But what you have commented is correct. And the Bhagavad-gītā, real thing is man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Instead they directed their attention to karma and this and that. It was... And similar thing...

Prabhupāda: But because they did not learn subject matter from ācārya.

Dr. Patel: Ācārya.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ācārya. One has to learn from the ācārya.

Dr. Patel: Ācārya is one who ācāra, himself practices.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No. One who knows and practices. Ācinoti śāstra. One who knows the real purpose. And there is no difficulty of understanding the real purpose. It is clearly said, everything. The process of knowledge is given, amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam [Bg. 13.8]. Where is that? In the beginning, "Oh, I am such a big leader, politician. Whatever I say is nice." Dambha. Dambha. Because he's thinking puffed-up, falsely. Some rascal fools give them clap. [Prabhupāda claps] They think, "Oh, I have become very great."

Dr. Patel: Nowadays, sir, they collect people to clap them.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Dr. Patel: Nowadays the politicians collect them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No. They make such a speech and practice. One political leader, he is young man, he was saying in Hyderabad... He was ambassador in... That Rao?

Hari-śauri: Yes, Motilal Rao.

Prabhupāda: So he did not know. He said that "When I was going to be ambassador, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he told me that "You first of all write a speech and practice it, and deliver it very nicely. Then they will applaud." This is Dr. Radhakrishnan. They want simply applause. That's all. Because they know, "If the public applauds, then I keep my position. I am... Whatever nonsense I speak or whatever nonsense I..., it doesn't matter."

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Public support.

Prabhupāda: Bās. That is their only business.

Hari-śauri: Some of them, they don't even write their own speeches. They have a professional script writer.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Professional writer and some speaker.

Dr. Patel: All of them. [indistinct]

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even the President of the United States has a speech writer.

Prabhupāda: Learned scholar, English licensed. We know that Madanmohan Malhotra. And in those days Surendranath Bannerji was a great orator. You have heard his name? Surendranath Bannerji. He is the practically father of Indian nationalism. So he was I.C.S., and in those days English scholar. His father was very big doctor, Dr. Dugdhachandra Bannerji. So his speech, this Madanmohan Malhotra used to rote it, cram, and before a mirror he would speak like this = "Oh..." In this way he became a politician. He was smārta-brāhmaṇa and he became a politician, simply by imitating Surendranath Bannerji's speech.

Dr. Patel: Even those who are with Baroda Maharaja and all Maharaja's speeches were written by [indistinct], so one can [indistinct]. Everyone is thinking "these are your ideas, Maharaja." "Well, everyone knows that I am writing it. It doesn't matter. I won't correct it." All the speeches given by Maharaja of Baroda was written by [indistinct]. All, all, practically all. Here's a reference there. And he was a great scholar after all.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He was English-born. His father was medical man, Dr. Madanmohan Bannerji.

Dr. Patel: They say he did not know even Bengali properly.

Prabhupāda: Yes. How he can? He was born in England, educated in England. He was English-born.

Dr. Patel: Then he became a master in Sanskrit. That is a great, I mean, intelligent...

Prabhupāda: That may be. He was a scholar. They were big scholars. He was professor in Baroda University.

Dr. Patel: Professor of French and Philosophy.

Prabhupāda: There is one hall, Aurobindo Hall, in Baroda.

Dr. Patel: All followers of Aurobindo are Bengalis and Gujaratis.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. No, there are others, in foreign countries. He was scholar.

Dr. Patel: In the āśramas Bengalis and Gujaratis will go fifty-fifty. There are some South Indians also there. [indistinct] "You are from India?" He had a very big following of Gujaratis.

Prabhupāda: Because he was first in Gujarat.

Dr. Patel: Baroda Maharaja, when he, when he did not appear in horse riding test, [indistinct] but he did not want to start the competition. [indistinct] So he came. So Baroda [indistinct] Maharaja knew he has came. Baroda Maharaja was in England then. He called him, saying [indistinct]. The same thing as the Britishers did at Baroda. That is, Baroda Maharaja was appreciated.

Prabhupāda: No, he was a person to be appreciated. There is no doubt. He had so many qualifications. But he was also doing yoga practice. When he was put into... No, after getting released from jail, twelve years. He was to be hanged.

Dr. Patel: C. R. Das.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: It was said that the man who was judge was his classmate in Cambridge, Oxford, or something like that.

Prabhupāda: Maybe.

Dr. Patel: C. R. Das made a very good speech. I have read all about what he [indistinct] for practicing yoga in jail. When he has himself written when he came to the minister's court. He felt that everywhere was Kṛṣṇa. Everyone was... He was seeing Kṛṣṇa everywhere. That was his feeling. So he would not be punished by anybody. But God is everywhere, even [indistinct]. His brother was transported to the... He was to be hanged, and then he was transported to [indistinct]. The Bengalis...

Prabhupāda: [indistinct] [break] This is the fact, that yato mata tato patha, whatever path you accept, that is authorized. He said that. Do you think it is bona fide? Kṛṣṇa says mām ekam, and he approves anything.

Dr. Patel: He was a partial political leader also.

Prabhupāda: That's all. He's a political leader.

Dr. Patel: But then he had a great burning desire to see that India be free of British purpose. He was a real nationalist...

Prabhupāda: That even cats and dogs, they also want that "My cats be well fed and be strong." That is not a very good position. And Bhagavad-gītā says, aratiḥ putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu [Bg. 13.10]. This is philosophy. And if one is attached to his homely happiness, he's not even a man of knowledge.

Dr. Patel: [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: When Vivekananda came back from foreign tours, he brought three women, and one woman was intimately connected with him.

Dr. Patel: [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: You, you have seen yourself. Why there was no men in America? He came back...

Dr. Patel: I think he was a brahmacārī throughout.

Prabhupāda: You do not know. There is an old man... Some old woman, he said about he's connected.

Dr. Patel: Subash Candra Bose [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: Marriage is good. But to keep illicit sex, that's the most sinful activity. Marriage is allowed. Dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi [Bg. 7.11]. That is not against.

Dr. Patel: Great number of luminaries have been produced by Bengal. Last year we read in Times of India more luminaries were produced in Bengal than any other Indian province.

Prabhupāda: No, Bengal... They maintained the culture. But therefore I say that Vivekananda broke that Bengali culture.

Dr. Patel: Bengali culture is fish-eating. Even brāhmaṇas eating.

Prabhupāda: No. They are eating fish only. Because Bengal is full of rivers. But not for all. Mass of people, that's a fact. But he introduced, "You can eat anything. It has nothing to do with religion." In Bengal in our childhood we have seen if anyone was habituated to take meat... The common man would not. Rich man. The rich men they have their sahis. Sahis you know, who takes care of the horse. So he would cook in the horse shed.

Dr. Patel: And eat there.

Prabhupāda: No. Then he'll bring the [indistinct] and eat it. It was never brought within the precincts of the house.

Dr. Patel: [indistinct] Gujarat and Maharashtra [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: No, no... These people who were eating meat, they knew that "I am doing wrong." But Vivekananda approved, "No, it is not wrong." It is wrong. "Whatever you like, you can do." Then they began to eat meat. Fish they were already eating. Meat and chicken and eggs and everything.

Dr. Patel: All the sons of Vallabhācārya's followers are eating.

Prabhupāda: No, everyone is eating. I know that. Therefore our first regulation is you must give it up. Then we talk of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Dr. Patel: My son, [indistinct], he does not even eat tomatoes, saying that if you [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: Tomato was not taken.

Dr. Patel: No, no. That is what he says. "I won't eat." He does not eat because his mother was 100% vegetarian, and we would not allow even...

Prabhupāda: In our childhood no one would eat the tomato. It is not... It is red color, but everything vilāti. It is called vilāti baigun. So no one would touch.

Hari-śauri: Tomato?

Prabhupāda: There was prejudice, because it was brought from... Even potato. Strict Hindu would not take potato. Potato was imported from England. It was not produced... Just like tulasī. Tulasī plant we have imported, exported. Similarly, so many things...

Dr. Patel: They have not allowed tulasī to be grown in America.

Prabhupāda: Oh, no? Who said?

Dr. Patel: Mr. Shaheb, [indistinct] tulasī plant for his daughter.

Prabhupāda: No, we have got so many tulasī plants.

Hari-śauri: Every one of our centers has so many tulasīs.

Prabhupāda: Every temple we have got big, big tulasī. Especially Hawaii we have got six-feet-high tulasī.

Dr. Patel: I have [indistinct]. They won't allow plant.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is agriculture. You cannot take any plant. Not only tulasī. Any plant from India.

Dr. Patel: You may take away the diseases.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Not only tulasī plant, any plant you cannot take. You cannot take any vegetables. There is agricultural restriction.

Dr. Patel: But I think tulasī can be grown in all the countries. Even in the cold.

Prabhupāda: In the cold countries with little care.

Dr. Patel: England?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We have got tulasī.

Dr. Patel: You may have to keep it in hothouse during winter.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We make that arrangement. And what Vivekananda said, that "It is better to water eggplant tree. Why tulasī plant? What you will get?" Eggplant tree means you'll get some eggplant, baigun. [Hindi] This is his culture. "Make your body strong and stout by eating meat, and there is nothing to do with the..."

Dr. Patel: The result will be the same as Gandhi's [indistinct]. This slaughterhouse, so abominable and so horrible. When I first came to Bombay from my village and I had to pass through that railway, that nasty butcher house. It was so horrible smelling, and those vultures sitting on the... I became spite of myself, when I came in Bombay. I had to join the grammatical college here.

Prabhupāda: You were... Two thousand years ago, Christ, he was born in Jewish family, he was horrified by seeing animal sacrifices in the synagogue. Therefore his first commandment is, "Thou shall not kill." He was so horrified. Why he has given this commandment? He was so much horrified = "What is this?" Therefore he gave up the Jewish religion. He started his own. This is the history. And he, first commandment, "Thou shall not kill."

Dr. Patel: And the Jews were killing the pigeons in the temple.

Prabhupāda: They are very expert in killing.

Dr. Patel: I don't know how the religiosity could even...

Prabhupāda: So where is religion?

Dr. Patel: They have misinterpreted religion.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Bhāgavata has criticized all so-called religion.

Dr. Patel: One patient of mine, Sardar Patel, he's a old [indistinct] from Hindus and Muslim. And [indistinct] what they call it, killing of their...

Prabhupāda: Muslims are also restricted... [break] ...for some purpose. Therefore they are called karmīs. Actually, it is for satisfying Viṣṇu. Without Viṣṇu's satisfaction nothing can be done. So those who are desiring some material grants, they used to perform this ritualistic ceremonies. It is not for the devotee.

Dr. Patel: For devotee, Kṛṣṇa has said, "I am yajña, and I am also hutam, and I am also performer of yajña."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because He gives the intelligence. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. Unless He gives smṛti, he cannot chant the mantra. "Therefore actually I am performer."

Dr. Patel: Ahaṁ kratur ahaṁ yajñaḥ...

Prabhupāda: Therefore He says, "I am performer. If I give him instruction, he does something, so he is not doing; I am doing. I say, 'Do like this,' and he does like that, then he's not performer; I am performer." So whatever mantra they are chanting, if Kṛṣṇa does not give him intelligence, he cannot do that. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. "Everyone, whatever we are doing, it is being supplied, the intelligence, the everything, but according to My desires." So I cannot do anything independently. Just like we are constructing, practically, with the sanction of the Municipality, the sanction of the government. Independently I cannot do. Similarly, we cannot anything without sanction of God. But that sanction is, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante [Bg. 4.11]. I insist, "God, give me this facility, give me this facility." "All right. You do it at your risk." But God says that "You don't do this." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. "What I say, you do. Then you'll be happy. What I dictate, you do. But you are dictating Me. Because you are My son, what can I do? All right. Do it."

Dr. Patel: [laughs] "I grant you whatever you..."

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the position. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām [Bg. 7.23]. "Because you are rascal, less intelligent, you are doing this, but this will not endure. You'll be a failure. Better what I say, you do. Then you'll be happy." This is the whole instruction. "You cannot do without My sanction. But you are insisting. What can I do? All right. Do it."

Dr. Patel: "I grant you. And take the fruit and realize."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. He's there. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni [Bg. 18.61]. If you have done, then you must suffer or enjoy. That's all. That is your business. You get... "Now you have created a karma. You have to enjoy it by accepting a certain type of body. Now you take it. I ask māyā, 'Give him this body. He wants to eat stool.' 'All right. Give him the body of a hog.' " Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. The yantra, the body, is supplied by māyā under the order. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate [Bg. 9.10]. Everything is there. But these things they do not preach. They preach unnecessarily nonviolence. From Bhagavad-gītā, which is being taught in the battlefield, and Gandhi wants to draw some meaning, nonviolence. Immediately it is... What is the value? Not only Gandhi, everyone. If he can give a new interpretation... I think in Bombay, was there any Dr. Reilly [Relly?]? He wrote some Bhagavad-gītā commentary as...

Dr. Patel: I think it's not that Reilly. Not that Reilly, Dr. Reilly, but there is another Reilly in Baroda who taught...

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be.

Dr. Patel: ...Sanskrit to...

Prabhupāda: No, no. He has interpreted Bhagavad-gītā, patient and physician.

Dr. Patel: Patient and physician. That may be this Reilly then. He was the dean of one of the medical colleges.

Prabhupāda: Ah. So he has written that Kṛṣṇa is the physician and Arjuna is the patient. And he has interpreted in that way. There are 645 like that, this, what is called, unauthoritative commentaries, without touching the spirit of Bhagavad-gītā.

Dr. Patel: Best commentary is the Bhagavad-gītā itself. It needs no commentary. It is so simple to understand. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ.

Prabhupāda: And commentary, interpretation, required when you cannot understand.

Dr. Patel: It is very easy to understand.

Prabhupāda: It is very easy, and still these rogues will exploit and mislead people. This is the fact. And perhaps this is the first time I am pointing out. Before that nobody did.

Dr. Patel: And you wrote... I have read your commentary twice, and it has become very harsh on those people.

Prabhupāda: I must be. They are doing wrong thing. They are doing great harm to the... They are misleading the people. If I become little more powerful, I shall do it more harshly. I did not show, because I was non-entity. But I knew it. Now people are taking me little seriously, I am talking. [break] In the beginning I thought, "Who will hear me? Better wait for the time." Therefore I wrote Mahatma Gandhi that "Now you have got your svarāja. Please come, let us preach Bhagavad-gītā." You have seen. If he would have given the chance at that time, then long ago this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement would have been started.

Dr. Patel: He had only anāsakti-yoga. Anāsakti-yoga, Second Chapter, Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: He has expanded his āsakti from his family to the whole nation. That is not anāsakti. Expanded āsakti is not anāsakti. I'm thinking only of my family, and if I think of the whole nation, that does not mean anāsakti. That means āsakti expanded. I am a pickpocket. If I become a great plunderer, that does not mean I am not a thief. You cannot say pickpocket is thief and a great plunderer is a hero. The quality is there.

Hari-śauri: There's that story about Alexander and the thief.

Prabhupāda: Ah, Alexander and the thief. The thief convinced him, "Alexander, what is the difference between you and me? [laughter] I'm a small thief, you are a big thief, that's all." [entering car]

Dr. Patel: I will drive the car for today.

Prabhupāda: All right. No, no, why you [indistinct]. Young man... [break] ...the world... [break] [end]