Room Conversation with Indian Man , Poona , 1976-12-22
Indian man: ...self-realization. Various methods, as many people are there, so many techniques are there. Each individual has to find out his own way.
Prabhupāda: Do you think that is scientific proposal?
Indian man: They say.
Prabhupāda: I say they are bluffing. Just like you go to educational institution, is there any knowledge that is to be realized according to the whims of the students?
Indian man: Not the knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Then what is this? Self-realization, what it is?
Indian man: [indistinct]
Prabhupāda: That is knowledge. That is knowledge. Self-realization...
Indian man: This is, one part is true knowledge.
Prabhupāda: No, not... Suppose self-realization, what I am, is it not?
Indian man: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So what I am, then you have to study in this way, whether you are this body or you are something else. Is it not? So that is in the beginning of the Bhagavad-gītā explained, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]. Find out this verse. This is self-realization. Bhagavad-gītā begins with self-realization, "What I am." Am I this body or I am something other than this body? That is self-realization. So that is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā.
Indian man: Yes, he has spoken on Bhagavad-gītā also.
Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, this self-realization, as you said, that "There are as many ways as there are students," that is not scientific.
Indian man: That's what he says.
Prabhupāda: That is wrong. Not maybe. Then let us try to understand. It is not the question of "maybe." Self-realization must be. That is self-realization. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām. Śrotavyādīni rājendra nṛṇāṁ santi sahasraśaḥ [SB 2.1.2]. [aside:] You come this side, that's all right. Those who are not self-realized, they have got many questions and many answers. And those who are..., one who is self-realized, he has only one question and one answer. One question, that "What I am?" There is no self-realization, one question, "What I am?" And now "What I am," do you think there is a student, he is inquiring, "What I am?" and whatever he thinks, that is his answer? If the student is ignorant... Therefore there are many students and many questions about self-realization. Do you think that there are many answers?
Indian man: Answer will be one.
Prabhupāda: One. This is self-realization. The answer is one, that "I am not this body." This is self-realization. You cannot say that because there are many students, so there are many answers.
Indian man: But who am I? Every individual starts quest, asking himself, "Who am I?" And everybody is thinking in his own terms, that "I am something, I am somebody." Somebody is attached to the upper garments...
Prabhupāda: So long he is student, student means he does not know.
Indian man: Yes, he is ignorant.
Prabhupāda: He is ignorant. So his question is "What I am?" but he is ignorant. He cannot give the answer.
Indian man: He cannot.
Prabhupāda: The master.
Indian man: The master will give
Prabhupāda: The master will give one answer.
Indian man: His answer will be one, but to how the student understands, for making student understand, he will have to show in different ways. Suppose a person is coming from Himalayas to the Bombay, his path will be different. Greenery will be there, flowing rivulets will be there, mountain peaks scattered with snow will be there....
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. If you have to go to the Himalaya, you must go to the path which leads to Himalaya. You cannot accept a path which leads to Delhi. There is no different answer. The answer is one. Just like Himalaya is in the northern side. The answer would be, "The Himalaya is on the northern side." Nobody will say, "No, Himalaya may be in the eastern side" or "the western side" or "southern side." That is not the answer.
Indian man: I was saying something different. That one person is coming from Himalaya towards Bombay, and one is coming from the desert side. No ulti...
Prabhupāda: Then if he is coming from Himalayas, then why is the question about "Where is Himalaya?" Then why he will question where is Himalaya? He is already coming from Himalaya. So there is no question where is Himalaya. For him there is no question. One who does not know where is Himalaya, the answer will be "Himalaya is on the northern side."
Indian man: True.
Prabhupāda: The answer is one = north. And if you say that there are many students, so you can answer that "Either you go this side or this side or that side, Himalaya is there," that is not the answer.
Indian man: East is not east, south is not south, north is not north when you go the opposite direction.
Prabhupāda: What... Then what is the meaning of "east," "west," "south"? If it is not east... If east is not east, then why do you call it east?
Indian man: Because the paradox, we are having sun rises, sun sets. But sun never rises, sun never sets.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Sun rises from the east.
Indian man: But the fact is sun never rises. Sun is only there.
Prabhupāda: Sun never rises, then where is the question that "Where is sun?" to your experience? If the sun rises, and if you say the sun never rises, if you know it, then what is your question?
Indian man: That is the question where realization is over.
Prabhupāda: What is your realization over? You see that the sun rises from the east. So everyone knows. Then where is the question? Anyone who has realized the sun never rises, then he has no question.
Indian man: Yes. So that present question is dropped.
Prabhupāda: Then there is no question at all. If one has known it, the sun is always twenty-four hours on the sky, it never rises, never sets, then where is the question? He knows it.
Indian man: But that present question is dropped. Otherwise, ignorance remains. One thinks that sun is rising, sun is setting.
Prabhupāda: For him there is question, that what is the process. So therefore the question is by the ignorant, and answer is by the master. The answer is one. Because everyone is coming, student, he is ignorant. So he may question in a whimsical way, but the answer is one. Answer cannot be many.
Indian man: Suppose there is a blind person...
Prabhupāda: Blind person, he should hear. He should hear.
Indian man: But a blind person wants to see. What is milk, it will be complicated if we keep on teaching him it is white or something like that. We have to give eyes. And then he can see.
Prabhupāda: Therefore eyes... What do you give? What you mean by giving eyes? Knowledge.
Indian man: Knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Now where you get the knowledge?
Indian man: From the learned one.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So who can be learned more than Kṛṣṇa?
Indian man: To be honest about this whole thing, as for memory level goes, I have forgotten the Kṛṣṇa, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness. By the virtue of coming in contact with you realized people, we can also understand. Otherwise it's the gospel truth, written in scripture, holy men say we accept it. It's not our experience.
Prabhupāda: No, it's not experience. Then there is no... If you do not accept one authority, then there is no answer of your question.
Indian man: We have to accept. But realization is not there, as you holy men will say.
Prabhupāda: We don't require realization. Realization will be had.
Indian man: How to realize that?
Prabhupāda: No, that is the way. The master will present the answer in such a way that the student will realize. That is master.
Indian man: Then please, bestow your blessings on me, how to realize this.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you can be realized. Just like Kṛṣṇa, in the beginning of His teaching Bhagavad-gītā, He says that... What is the verse?
kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
dhīras tatra na muhyati
Prabhupāda: So He answers, because Arjuna was disturbed on this battlefield that "How shall I fight with my relatives? I shall kill them. It is not my duty to kill my brothers or my nephews." He was perplexed. So the answer is given in a suitable way, that "You are thinking of killing the body of your brother. But your brother is not the body. And even if you think that your brother is being killed, so your brother, real your brother, he will get another body." Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. This is the answer. This is self-realization, that "You are very much disturbed on the bodily concepts of life, but your brother is not this body. Even if you so-called killing of your brother, he will live." That is further explained. Next verse.
tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata
Prabhupāda: So one can say that "Even though it is a fact that my brother is not this body, but still, I see that I am killing the body of my brother. That is painful. How can I kill my brother? That is very painful." So that is, answer is there, that this kind of pain will continue. This is on the body. It is not on the soul. That He's explaining. The point is one, that "Your brother, whom you are calling brother, that you mistakenly you are taking the body of your brother as your brother." So everything is explained. But the point is one. There cannot be many. The same point is being explained in so many varieties of ways. But the point is there.
Indian man: The point is there, only explained in different ways.
Prabhupāda: But that is not many ways. It is a kind of explanation. "This is this. If you do not understand that this, this is this." The point is one = that your brother is not your brother's body. So there cannot be many answers. Answer is one.
Indian man: Answer is one. Ways, as you have mentioned just now. Different ways.
Prabhupāda: Not different ways. Different explanation. [break] So any question, any problem, it is solved not by the whims of the student, but it is solved by the expert master by explaining it very elaborately.
Indian man: So the little knowledge I possess. In a classroom there are different types of students. One are sharp; certain are dull; certain are absolutely dull. The degrees of understanding are different from student to student.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. That is explanation. That is not different way.
Indian man: A particular student, master has to teach him in that way.
Prabhupāda: The answer is one.
Indian man: Yes, that is true.
Prabhupāda: That the any person, any living entity, he is not this body. That is the answer. So then two things. Suppose you are, I am, that I am thinking of this body, and at the same time I am thinking that this finger, I say, "my finger." Nobody says, "I finger." "My finger." Even a child he will say. So "my finger," "my head," "my legs." So what is that "my"? That is the question. So answer is negatively, that that "I" or "my" is not this body. That is different from the body. Now what is the nature of that "I"? That is explained one after another, one after another, one, one. Because he has no idea. Every one of us... I am speaking; you are speaking. Theoretically we take..., accept it that I am not this body. But practically I say, "I am this body," but that is wrong. That has to be explained. And that is being explained. The question is one and the answer is one. There cannot be many questions or many answers. Answer is one. That answer is, Kṛṣṇa begins, that "As the body is changing, within our experience...," dehino'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13].
Very nice example. We are changing bodies. When you were born, there was no beard---clean shaved or no hair. So that body has changed. It is not the same body. In which body you came out of the womb of your mother, that was a small body. That was a different body. This example given there. This body is changing during your experience of life. Similarly, after death the body will change, but you will continue. This is self-realization. It is not very difficult. The example is there. It doesn't take much time. The answer is one, and it is realized, say, within some minutes. So Bhagavad-gītā begins from self-realization, that "I am not this body." That is actual position, that if I understand that I am not this body, factually, then what I am, that I am something beyond this body? That is explained in so many different ways. So the center is this, that I am not this body. The answer is one. But I cannot answer..., the master will not answer according to the whims of the student. Then he is not master. Because answer is one.
Indian man: Then the question is, this is not the complete answer, that I am not the body. That is not...
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Self-realization that, that you are seeking what I am. Am I this body or something else? That is your inquiry. And the answer is that "No, you are not this body."
Indian man: But question remain the same.
Prabhupāda: No, no, not... Then it is explained, how you are not this body. That is... In the beginning He explains, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]. Just like you see the body has changed every daily, per minute, the body is changing, imperceptively. But try to understand that you were a child; now your body has changed in a different body. But you understand, you remember, that "I was a child." But the child body is no longer. So you remember or not remember, the body is changing. This is the answer. This is self-realization.
Indian man: I am the constant change, the process?
Prabhupāda: You are not changing.
Indian man: Body is changing.
Prabhupāda: Body is changing. This is to be understood.
Indian man: Then who am I? Question is still hanging.
Prabhupāda: That will come next. The first question is this.
Indian man: "I am not body."
Prabhupāda: That's all. That is sufficient.
Indian man: Quite satisfying, "I am not body."
Prabhupāda: That is self-realization.
Indian man: There is something when a person dies, something minus; this body remains useless.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you are not this body.
Indian man: Yes, that means I am not the body. I am something beyond body. And what is that beyond body?
Prabhupāda: That is explained in so many chapters.
Indian man: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is explained. That is, I am... Kṛṣṇa says that these all these living entities... [break] ...that you are the same as God. Mamaivāṁśa. Aṁśa, part and parcel of the... So,
"You, you are as good as I am, or you are as good as God. But because you haven't got..., developed your mind materially, therefore you are struggling hard with your mind and senses in this material world." The answer is there. First of all you understand that you are not this body, but every one of us, we are struggling hard in this material world because I have taken this body as "I am," and the mind is there. I am planning in different ways to become happy in this material world.
Indian man: That is the plight of everybody.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you should accept the process how to control this restless mind making different plans, different devices to become happy. That is your difficulty. But this is not according to the ways of the questioner = "I believe in this way." The master will never say. How he can make his own way? He is ignorant. There cannot be, whimsically, as many students there are, as many ways are there. That is rascaldom. That is not. You have to accept the [indistinct]. This is a very dangerous answer, that according to the student's means, there are different ways of discerning self.
Indian man: That little knowledge I possess about Gītā starts with Third Chapter, with the knowledge made there, and Kṛṣṇa coming down to bhakti-yoga step by step, karma-yoga, and saying everything, "This is the supreme, this is the supreme, this is the supreme."
Prabhupāda: Not supreme. He says this is of the person, different ways of thinking. But everywhere He is stressing bhakti. Just like generally people are karmī, karmīs. They are working hard. And he has made his plan. He has made his plan that "In this way I shall be happy." So throughout the whole world, the beginning from animals, lower than the man, and then men, different types of men... So manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi, every one of them, he is planning or he is thinking in different ways. So the animals, they cannot understand the master's answer. But in the human being they are, according to the mind, mental concoction and planning, there are four classes of men.
One class is called karmī. They are thinking that by working hard and trying to find out my own way of happiness, they will be happy. This is called karmī. Without any knowledge, they are simply working. They are actually like the animals. The animals, the dog, is jumping, a few miles he is jumping. He is thinking that "By jumping I shall be happy." Or for the time being he may happy by jumping, and sometimes thinking otherwise. So karmīs, they do not know what is the actual aim of life. Out of many millions of persons, mostly they are karmīs. They do not know what is the actual aim of life. But they are devising different plans, that "I shall be happy in this way." This is called karmī. He does not take the standard way of happiness.
Then the next elevated person is jñānī. He thinks, ponders, that "I have worked so hard, but still I could not become happy." The jñānī. He searches out philosophically. Then next class, yogī. Yogī concentrates the mind to think over, "What is my problem? Why I am not happy?" How he can become happy, he is trying to, very soberly, to understand. Yoga means controlling the senses, and the master of the senses is the mind. So he, trying to make the mind concentrated on the fact, he is yogī. And then the next stage is... If he is yogī, then there are different types of yoga system. But when he comes to the point that "I am not master. There is one master, controller. So master, whatever master orders, I have to execute that. That is my real happiness," bhakta. So karmī, jñānī, yogī and bhakta.
So out of these four classes of men, the three classes---means karmī, jñānī and yogī---they are restless, because they actually did not find out what is the solution. One after another, there are different classes, there are classification. One is better than the other. That is another thing. But none of them... They are still misled. A karmī, he is thinking that "I am poor man. If I become rich man, I will be happy." He is thinking in that way. Jñānī is thinking that "Poor and rich doesn't matter. I am Brahman. I am spirit soul. If I merge into the Supreme Brahman I will be happy." Yogī is thinking that "The Absolute is present everywhere in His personal feature. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. So if I become one with Him, I will be happy." But still there is a demand, "If I become like this." So, so long he is not self-realized, he will try to become something, and so long he'll try to become something, then there will be restlessness. There cannot be happiness. And when he comes to the realization point that "Why I am trying to become something? I am this, and this, that is my position," then he becomes happy. That is bhakti. Everyone is trying to become something. And bhakta knows, "I am this." There is no question of becoming. And this is my position. Very nice. Therefore Kṛṣṇa ultimately said that "This is the most confidential knowledge, Arjuna. I am teaching you so many things. There is no need of understanding so many things. The real thing is that I am the master; you are My servant. You surrender unto Me, that's all. Then you'll be happy."
Indian man: Very bold step.
Prabhupāda: So there is no second answer. The answer is one = "Kṛṣṇa is master, I am servant." That's all. What is the duty? Just like here is a servant. Whatever you are ordering, he is doing.
Indian man: The same answer is given to jñānī, yogī?
Indian man: They can understand the same way? They have to come up to bhakta.
Prabhupāda: No, not same way. Because he is dull, still wanting to become something. He is dull. There is no question of becoming. Just like they say that ahaṁ brahmāsmi. You are already Brahman. But on account of your dullness of brain, you are thinking that "I am becoming Brahman." You are already Brahman. You are already Brahman. Because, if he is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is Paraṁbrahma. So Paraṁbrahma part and parcel must be Brahman. How it can be otherwise? It is a question of, so long one does not understand that he is Brahman, he is trying to become Brahman.
Indian man: Due to ignorance.
Prabhupāda: Due to ignorance. So, so long one wants to become Brahman, he is ignorant.
Indian man: True. Knowledge is futile? Knowledge, it becomes futile then.
Prabhupāda: Yes, because trying to become. There is no question of becoming.
Indian man: To be innocent, to be ignorant, is good then.
Prabhupāda: No. Therefore he should go to the master. Because he is ignorant, he must go to the master. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. But if you capture one..., another person as master who is like me, then you are failure. Therefore we should accept the recognized master by everyone. Just like Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the master, beginning from all sources, Vyāsadeva. Vyāsadeva is the original guru. So what Vyāsadeva has said about Kṛṣṇa. Then Vyāsadeva, later on Nārada Muni. And..., from Nārada Muni, Vyāsadeva. And from Vyāsadeva, Śukadeva Gosvāmī. And Śukadeva Gosvāmī is describing about Kṛṣṇa.
Then paramparā, from Śukadeva Gosvāmī, others, Sūta Gosvāmī, like that. The knowledge is the same. Kṛṣṇa says that "I spoke about this knowledge to the sun-god. [indistinct aside comment by guest] Yes. And he explained this knowledge to Manu." So in this way, apart from that, that I have not seen Manu; I do not know. But when there is Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna, that's a fact. So you understand from Arjuna what Arjuna said. Why should you go to somebody else? That is written record, how Arjuna understood. That is the way. Why should we go to a person who does not know? One who knows, we shall go there. Yes. This is a fact, that Arjuna understood it.
Indian man: How to seek a master? How to find a master?
Prabhupāda: If you do not know how to seek a master, then how you can quote your so-called rascal master, if you do not know the way?
Indian man: Because there are so many fake masters.
Prabhupāda: So why you should go to that fake master? If you do not know what is...
Indian man: They prophesize, they call, they invite. The ignorant people go. They don't know what real master is. So they come...
Prabhupāda: That much intelligence, we must have that intelligence, that who is master. Suppose if you want gold, if you do not know where gold can be purchased, then he is cheated.
Indian man: That is what is happening.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So why should you be cheated? At least you go to a shop where gold is purchased and sold. Why should you go to a pān wala?
Indian man: True. True.
Prabhupāda: If you have no such knowledge, then you will be [indistinct]. You must know at least that gold has to be purchased from a merchant who is dealing in gold. If you do not know that, then you will be cheated.
Indian man: That becomes a problem, that people say that they are selling gold, but when you go to them, they are not selling gold.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is not problem. Problem is you do not know.
Indian man: Yes, that is accepted. Disciple doesn't know.
Prabhupāda: At least, you do not know where gold is purchased and sold.
Indian man: They have seen gold.
Prabhupāda: But others know. Otherwise, how they are transacting business, lakhs and crores in gold? He knows. [Hindi] There are many other persons who are dealing in gold. Therefore it is advised... The first is that I want to purchase gold. Śraddhā. This is called śraddhā. Ādau śraddhā. Then sādhu-saṅga [Cc. Madhya 22.83]. If you have to deal, you have to associate with persons. [aside in answer to indistinct question from devotee:] I do not know exactly. For the present, we can go there. If I require, we can get up.
Prabhupāda: At least, if you read Bhagavad-gītā to understand, and one is anxious to understand the need of spiritual life all over the world, so one should read Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Why he should interpret foolishly, spoiling the whole thing?
Indian man: Still, if [indistinct] of Tilak and...
Prabhupāda: Why? Why should you read Tilak and Tilak and Tilak? Straight.
Indian man: I don't know Sanskrit.
Prabhupāda: Then one who knows Sanskrit. You do not know.
Indian man: [indistinct] ...somewhere in Chapter Five that if you do bad deeds [indistinct].
Prabhupāda: But you do not know what is bad deeds is your disobedience to Kṛṣṇa is the most dangerous path.
Indian man: He interpreted more what sort of deeds you cannot go back to the...
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. That means he does not know what is good or bad. He does not know. Therefore he cannot become master. He cannot become master. The Bhagavad-gītā is there, and he is refuting Bhagavad-gītā. He is not master.
Indian man: So he took the wrong interpretation of others. Kṛṣṇa has never said like this.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says that dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. [aside:] Find out this verse.
Indian man: When the disciple is ready, the master comes. When the disciple is ready, the master appears, comes, comes. It is not that the disciple has to search for the master. The master is also to search after the disciples.
Prabhupāda: Well, it is just like there is a school. The school is also advertising that "You come here, you will get education." And one who is in need of education, he is also trying to come to the school. So the school must be bona fide and the student must be bona fide. Then things will come out. If the school is a bogus, then what the student will learn? They will not learn.
Prabhupāda: What is that verse?
Girirāja: Dharmāviruddho bhūteṣu.
Prabhupāda: What is that verse?
Girirāja: Dharmāviruddho bhūteṣu kāmo 'smi bharatarṣabha [Bg. 7.11].
Prabhupāda: Ah, that's it.
Girirāja: "I am the strength of the strong, devoid of passion and desire. I am sex life which is not contrary to religious principles."
Prabhupāda: There is good sex life and bad sex life. One who does not know what is good sex life, what is bad sex life, he's a rascal. Here you have to indulge in sex life which is not against the religious principles. But you must know what is religious and what is irreligious. If you do not know, you are rascal. There are two kinds of sex life. Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says, "Sex life which is not against the religious principles, that I am." So God is good. So sex life which is not against the religious principles, that is good sex life. Otherwise, it is bad.
Indian man: Where Kṛṣṇa comments...
Prabhupāda: First of all let us understand this, that Kṛṣṇa says, "Sex life which is not against the religious principles, that is I am." The sex life which is against the religious principles, that is bad.
Indian man: Can you explain to me what is good sex life and bad sex life?
Prabhupāda: Good sex life = when sex life is accepted for begetting good children. Just like in another place it is said, pitā na sa syāj. Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt [SB 5.5.18] = one should not become a father, one should not become mother, unless he or she can save his child from death. This is religious sex life. Suppose you are married. There is sex life. And both you and your wife decide that "Unless I am expert to save my child from death, we shall not have sex life." This is good sex life.
Indian man: It is negation of sex.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise sex life is there in the cats and dogs. If you are going to be a dog? You must act as a human being. This is to act as human being, that "I shall not become a father, my dear wife, you should not become a mother, if both of us are not expert how to save the death of our child." This is good sex life. If you are not expert to execute this scientific method, then it is bad sex life. It is the dog's sex life.
Indian man: Has anybody practiced this type of sex?
Prabhupāda: Yes, there are so many. That is the Vedic civilization.
Indian man: They have shielded a child from death?
Prabhupāda: Yes, many, many.
Indian man: An example.
Prabhupāda: An example, that first of all you know how you can save the death.
Indian man: I do not know.
Prabhupāda: Ah, if you do not know that problem... [Prabhupāda is laughing]
Indian man: That is the biggest problem. [laughing]
Prabhupāda: That is.
Indian man: The body comes, then the soul. But that part is, I don't...
Prabhupāda: First of all, you have understood that unless you are capable of training your child not to die, you should not become a father. First of all, you have to accept this principle. Then how to save the child from death, that is next question. Let us go step by step. Your question was, "What is the good sex life?" The answer is given here.
Indian man: Answer is very complicated, sir.
Prabhupāda: Not complicated. The answer is... But how to become expert to save the child from death, that is another science that you should know. If you want to stop yourself... [break] ...no need of a child to whom you have to give your care to make him, to raise him in such a way, if there is no such need, then there is no need of sex life. If you enjoy sex life for sense enjoyment, that is atrocity. That is atrocity. That is Vedic civilization. Because before sex life we have got saṁskāras, garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. The purpose is there, that "I shall train my child how to stop death. And the child must be so good that he will take my instruction." And therefore garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. So without garbhādhāna-saṁskāra, one who enjoys sex life, he is the most sinful. Not that "Whenever and wherever I like, and with whomever I like, I shall have sex life." It is all sinful activity. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, dharma aviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi: "Sex life which is not against religious principles, that I am." So if we try to understand this one verse, we become self-realized. Similarly, each verse of Bhagavad-gītā is like that.
Indian man: Such a supreme knowledge is there from our superior authorities. This knowledge is..., we are not even able to follow.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. Therefore people are coming out like cats and dogs. But here is Bhagavad-gītā. If you are guided by Bhagavad-gītā, then it is all right. But this question, next question you'll say, that "How I can save?" That is answered in Bhagavad-gītā. How you can save? Now you say. You tell me what is that verse, how you can save your child from death.
Indian man: By realizing, by giving an education.
Prabhupāda: No, you try to quote the verse, what is the way.
Indian man: [laughing] I am a small fly before yourself. You are the ocean. I am a drop.
Prabhupāda: No. You are not fly, you are experienced. Therefore I am trying to explain. [aside:] Find out this verse = tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. Punar janma naiti. That is continuation of life. Tyaktvā... Everyone has to give up this body. And one who gives up this body but does not accept another material body, he has no more birth and death. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. You have to find out this. [aside:] Read it.
evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ
tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma
naiti mām eti so 'rjuna
"One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving this body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna."
Prabhupāda: Very simple thing, that you are part and parcel of God. God is eternal. So if you understand God, then you become eternal. Just like your father is very rich man, but you have left your father; you are loitering in the street. But as soon as you understand your father, "Oh, I am the son of such and such person. He is so rich! Oh, I haven't got any necessity." Then you become rich. Go back home, back to Godhead. Mām eti: "He comes to Me." Someone is there. You must know your father, and you must go back to father. Then there is no question of suffering. Very simple thing. Now what is the purport?
Girirāja: Purport = "The Lord's descent from His transcendental abode is already explained in the sixth verse. One who can understand the truth of the appearance of the Personality of Godhead is already liberated from material bondage."
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is already liberated, when one understands Kṛṣṇa properly. Then?
Girirāja: "And therefore he returns to the kingdom of God immediately after quitting this present material body."
Prabhupāda: That return to God is eternal. Suppose I am your guest here, so you may provide me for some days, but I cannot expect that you can provide me for all the days. That is my mistake. But if you go to your father's house, there is no question of. He takes.
Indian man: Always.
Prabhupāda: That is required. Go to your father. Mām eti. Therefore this is the way of eternity, that you understand who is your father and you go back to Him. Then his life is successful. And who is the father?
Indian man: [laughing] Not the body.
Prabhupāda: [laughing] Not body. It is in the Bhagavad-gītā. Find out this verse:
tāsāṁ mahad yonir brahma
ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā
He is the father.
mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ
tāsāṁ brahma mahad yonir
ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā
"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father."
Prabhupāda: This is all very easy to understand. Mother means from whom the child is coming, is it not? That is mother. Everyone knows. So you see this whole world, wherefrom everything is coming, you see, practically, gross knowledge. I see a plant is coming from the earth, a tree is coming from the earth. And according to evolutionary theory... Not theory; fact. The dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. When his plant life is finished, he takes another body, insect life. So the mother is the earth. That's a fact. I am eating the things which are... Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam [SB 1.13.47]. I am a life. I am taking either grain or I am taking flesh, the material is supplied from the earth. The animal also, he is also eating the grass. That is coming from the earth. The earth is the mother. That is a fact. Now we should be intelligent, that simply mother cannot beget a child. There must be father. So who is that father? The answer is here = ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā [Bg. 14.4]. So where is the ignorance?
Indian man: This is Brahman.
Prabhupāda: And again. Kṛṣṇa says aham, why do you interpret in different way?
Indian man: Now this indication is...
Prabhupāda: That means you make purposefully complicated. The father is saying, "I am father." Then why you are bringing this meaning, aham means...
Indian man: No, it's that "aham" is indicated to who? The physical posture of Kṛṣṇa which we know, or the...?
Prabhupāda: Why do we say like that? Why? [shouting] Why you are bringing physical concept? He is a person, He is saying. Why do you say physical, material, and this and that way? He is father.
Indian man: Because He is saying, we should accept it?
Prabhupāda: Yes, you accept. Accept, Kṛṣṇa is in your front. And why should physical, metaphysical and chemical? Kṛṣṇa is a person. A person says...
Indian man: Earth is mother...
Prabhupāda: Yes. And He says that "Earth is mother; I am the father." You have to understand it, that yes, earth is mother, because everything is coming from earth. But who has given the seed in the mother? That Kṛṣṇa says, "I am giving." Sa asṛjata sa īkṣata [Aitareya Upaniṣad 1.1.1-2]. This is Vedic version. And He says personally.
Indian man: As you say earth, mind accepts immediately. But...
Prabhupāda: But if your mind cannot accept, your mind cannot accept, that does not mean the things will change. You should know that you are a fool. You do not know.
Indian man: I accept.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then as Kṛṣṇa says you accept it. How the father has given seed to this earth? That is not your business. You try to understand...
Indian man: [indistinct]
Prabhupāda: Because you are trying to understand in your own way.
Indian man: Trying to understand in my own way?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like you beget a child, you give seed. The seed of the child in the womb of your wife in a method, you know that. Therefore you are thinking, "How it is possible?" You do not know that God is almighty. He can beget children in His own way. But you are thinking in your own way, that "I give birth to a child in this way. How is that He is seed-giving father and earth is producing?" Because you are thinking in your own way.
Indian man: I have to think in my own way.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but that is not God. God is almighty.
Indian man: And now you are explaining that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you have to go to the right master.
Indian man: They say in their own way. How you search out the right master?
Prabhupāda: Yes. So I am speaking on the basis of the Bhagavad-gītā. I am not manufacturing.
Indian man: True.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is master. Master means he will not manufacture. Lawyer means who will speak in the court with reference to the lawbook. Not that "My Lordship, I have manufactured this way. You accept it." "Get out. Get out, rascal. You are not a lawyer." So this is going on. The rascals are going to be lawyer, without understanding.
Indian man: No, sir. The way you explain mother earth, similarly father's explain to me.
Prabhupāda: Father... He says. Because you have no advanced knowledge, how you can understand? The father says, "I am father."
Indian man: So beautiful you explain mother. Similarly, just let me understand father also.
Prabhupāda: No, no, beautifully, yes, everything is beautiful. We first know that without father, mother, there cannot be birth. So everything, whatever you..., sarva-bhūtāni, sarva-bhūtāni, whatever is coming out, they are coming out as child of the earth. And you do not know who is the father. The father says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā [Bg. 14.4]. You understand the father. How you do not understand? The father says, "I am the father." You are searching after the father, and father says, and mother certifies, "Yes, he is your father." You don't require any other knowledge.
Indian man: This is fact. I am not understanding.
Prabhupāda: It is a simple truth. The father says, "I am the father." Therefore what can be done? He says, the father says, "I am the father." Mother certifies, "Yes, he is your father." Still if you do not understand, what can be done?
Indian man: You indicated very beautifully mother. I accept that.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is also beautifully indicated. The father says personally, but you are so dull-headed you cannot understand.
Indian man: You say Lord Kṛṣṇa, but I must know what Kṛṣṇa is.
Prabhupāda: Then it is very difficult to make you understand. Everyone knows what is Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man: I don't know.
Prabhupāda: Then you should learn it, what is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is said, anyone who knows Kṛṣṇa, he is liberated. Because you do not know, you are not liberated. Otherwise, as soon as you understand Kṛṣṇa you become liberated.
Indian man: It is plain fact = I don't know.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So try to understand Kṛṣṇa from the right source. Otherwise, you will remain a rascal. That's all. That is your first business, to understand Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa is explained in so many śāstras. If I am so rascal that still I cannot understand, that is my misfortune.
Indian man: Simply misfortune.
Prabhupāda: If I want to come to point of misfortune, that is my disease. Otherwise, we can understand little, Kṛṣṇa is explaining. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says,
yo jānāti tattvataḥ
tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma
naiti mām eti...
Simply to understand Kṛṣṇa is liberation. And that is also explained. What is that tattva, how one can understand tattvataḥ, that is explained by Kṛṣṇa. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg. 18.55]. That tattva is bhakti, not karma, jñāna, yoga. Everything is there. And still if we want to be misled, that is our misfortune.
Indian man: I am a seeker; I want to know.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I am taking this trouble. Otherwise, I have no business.
Indian man: I want to know Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is wanted. If you want to know, then there is way. And as soon as you understand Kṛṣṇa, you are liberated.
Indian man: This is the first step to know Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And that Kṛṣṇa is explaining. Where is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself. There is no difficulty to understand Kṛṣṇa. Suppose you have no knowledge about me, what is Swāmījī. You may speculate, "Swāmījī may be such and such, such and such." But if I explain myself, that "I am like this," then where is the difficulty? You haven't got to speculate, because I am explaining it. So you take that, you understand Kṛṣṇa. Why speculation?
Indian man: [indistinct]
Prabhupāda: Yes, there is no need of speculation. Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself. You take the advantage of Kṛṣṇa's explanation, you understand Kṛṣṇa. What is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. I am explaining my position. You have to understand as I am explaining. You cannot explain me. That is not possible. There are so many secrets I do not dis..., if I do not disclose, how you can explain it?
Indian man: Very simple, the way you related mother's. My mind could immediately accept it. But at the point of father's, it stopped.
Prabhupāda: Because you are thinking to become father in a particular way. You do not accept...
Indian man: Mother also in particular way.
Prabhupāda: That means you are thinking in your own particular way. But Kṛṣṇa is not subjected to your thinking. You have to give up this bad habit first of all, that Kṛṣṇa will be subordinate to your thinking. That is not God.
Indian man: How to give up this bad habit?
Prabhupāda: That means you have to become a bhakta. So long... You are thinking as jñānī. Therefore... Jñānī cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Only the bhakta can understand.
Indian man: Because he thinks in other ways.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore he cannot understand. Athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvaya-prasāda-leśānugṛhīta eva hi, jānāti tattvam [SB 10.14.29]. One who is fully surrendered---not fully; even little surrendered---he can understand. [doorbell rings] Otherwise, ciraṁ vicinvan. He can speculate for long, long years. [aside:] Aiye. For long, long years. Still he cannot. Athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvaya-prasāda-leśānugṛhīta eva hi, jānāti tattvam. He can understand. Na ca anya eko 'pi ciraṁ vicinvan. Others, even one of them, simply by speculating they cannot understand.
Indian man: To find śraddhā, or faith, to surrender. To surrender, one must have something to surrender to. What is that?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is explaining about Himself, so many pages. At last He says, "Surrender to Me." He is not asking him to surrender all of a sudden. He is explaining all the ways. "You think over," He has explained. Then He says, "The most confidential knowledge, Arjuna, I am giving to you, because you are My very dear friend, that you simply surrender. That's all."
Indian man: Simply surrender.
Prabhupāda: That's all. [aside:] Find out this verse = sarva-guhyatamam. Eighteenth Chapter, sixty-three verse or sixty-second verse.
śṛṇu me paramaṁ vacaḥ
iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham iti
tato vakṣyāmi te hitam
Prabhupāda: "Because you are My dear friend, I want for your good. So I am now disclosing the most confidential knowledge." What is that verse?
mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru
mām evaiṣyasi satyaṁ te
pratijāne priyo'si me
Prabhupāda: "You simply take this process = think of Me always." And the next, He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. "No. There are other processes?" "Give away, kick away. Take this = mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja." This is meanings of the... But because one cannot understand, therefore He has explained karma-yoga, jñāna-yoga, dhyāna-yoga, haṭha-yoga, this yoga. And He has explained also the meaning:
śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ
sa me yuktatamo mataḥ
"He is first-class yogī who has taken to Me only, thinking of Me." Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā. "Always within the heart who is thinking of Me, first-class yogī." One who does not understand Kṛṣṇa, he may be a yogī, a third-class, fourth-class yogī. Not a first class. [Hindi conversation] [break]
Prabhupāda: ...to make dāl purī, dāl baḍi. Do they make? Inside it is dāl. [break]
Life Member: When I come here for one day, I wish to stay here for three days, five days, seven days. I mean, always extend it for awhile. It is never on the set day. Whenever I come for a day, I stay two days. If I come for three days, I stay about five days. [break]
Prabhupāda: Dāl can be replaced with boiled potatoes.
Life Member: Boiled potatoes, yes, they are made. That is purī or paraṭā? Paraṭā is better. Ālu paraṭā.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Make Punjabi paraṭā.
Life Member: You will like that.
Prabhupāda: All right. And another thing, and sabjī, dry potato with hing.
Life Member: With...?
Prabhupāda: With hing.
Life Member: Ācchā. [break]
Prabhupāda: What vegetables other? There is cauliflower. There is no eggplant? Baigun? I require little.
Hari-śauri: What about paṭolas?
Prabhupāda: Paṭola is nice.
Indian man: We should make something of eggplant.
Prabhupāda: Eggplant vegetable, yes.
Indian man: Fried.
Prabhupāda: Yes, fried. [end]