Room Conversation with U.N. Doctor , Vṛndāvana , 1976-09-29
Prabhupāda: Na taj janeṣu abhijñeṣu. Abhijñaḥ janeṣu, no attachment. Vyāsadeva, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, Nārada Muni, all the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, they have no respect for these. They're creating their howling habits, that's all. How there can be peace?
Doctor: Now, when the Kṛṣṇa mantras...
Prabhupāda: Why do you say Kṛṣṇa panthā?
Doctor: No, mantras. I have come to mantra. Klīṁ kṛṣṇāya govindāya gopījanavallabhāya namaḥ. Is that not a very powerful Kṛṣṇa mantra?
Doctor: That is better than Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No. Hare Kṛṣṇa is therefore called mahā-mantra.
Doctor: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare.
Prabhupāda: Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare.
Doctor: This you regard as the..., higher than any other...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Therefore it is called mahā-mantra.
Doctor: But I was told that the Sudarśana-cakra words, mahāmāla parakramāyā maha patanivaya bhakta jane kalpanaya[?], that is a very powerful mantra.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything in relationship with God is powerful. But the name in this age is the most powerful = kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51].
Doctor: And the word oṁ has been praised in the Upaniṣads, but...
Prabhupāda: Oṁ, veda, praṇavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu. Kṛṣṇa says that raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ praṇavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu [Bg. 7.8]. Praṇava is oṁkāra. Sarva-vedeṣu, "That praṇava I am." That is sound representation of Kṛṣṇa.
Doctor: Then that one word as a mantra, is it not...
Doctor: ...the highest sort of word?
Prabhupāda: No. If you keep Kṛṣṇa, that "This praṇava is the sound representation of Kṛṣṇa," then it is all right. If you think it is separately powerful than Kṛṣṇa, that is nāma-aparādha.
Doctor: I understand.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you accept it as Kṛṣṇa says, that "I am praṇava," if you do remember Kṛṣṇa by chanting oṁkāra, then it is all right.
Doctor: Otherwise, oṁ is only given to sannyāsīs?
Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. It is not mentioned there. Anyone chanting Vedic mantra, he has to begin with oṁkāra.
Doctor: All mantras begin with oṁ and end with oṁ.
Prabhupāda: Yes, oṁkāra. So sarva-vedeṣu.
Doctor: So all the essential Vedas.
Prabhupāda: Praṇavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu. This is beginning. Just like we take Bhāgavata, oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya.
etad akṣaraṁ param
etad akṣaraṁ jñātvā
Prabhupāda: The difficulty is that we consider Kṛṣṇa is different from oṁkāra.
Doctor: That is a mistake.
Prabhupāda: That is a mistake.
Doctor: But then Kṛṣṇa is not different from Brahman.
Prabhupāda: If you take this oṁkāra as Kṛṣṇa's sound representation, then it is all right.
Doctor: Then it is as good as chanting "Kṛṣṇa."
Doctor: But it does not give...
Prabhupāda: But because Kṛṣṇa is remembered, if you take oṁkāra as Kṛṣṇa's sound representation then Kṛṣṇa is remembered.
Doctor: But Kṛṣṇa is three letters. Oṁ is one.
Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter.
Doctor: In the last minute when you are dying you can feel it, easily feel it.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa has many names. Kṛṣṇa has name Govinda. It is not three letters; it is more than that. Kṛṣṇa has so many thousands names. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta [Bs. 5.33]. So therefore Kṛṣṇa advises for the beginners, "Just try to remember Me in this way---raso 'ham apsu kaunteya [Bg. 7.8] = I am the taste of the water." The water you must be drinking twice, thrice, four times. So when you drink water, the taste satisfies your thirst. So if you simply remember, "This taste is Kṛṣṇa," that is Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Doctor: When you eat food, that also, the taste is Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, especially of the water. Kṛṣṇa is everything, but specifically He mentions, "The taste of the water I am." So you remember this.
Doctor: That's very interesting. So every time you drink water...
Prabhupāda: You can remember Kṛṣṇa. Where is the wrong, and what is the loss there? But you follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction. [someone enters] Yes, sit down. There is no difficulty to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. [microphone moves]
Doctor: Why do you tape record?
Hari-śauri: Everything Prabhupāda speaks we tape record, and then everyone in the world can listen.
Doctor: Someone said that the word oṁ is given to sannyāsīs, and it...
Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa does not say.
Doctor: It's not so.
Prabhupāda: "Someone," we don't take authority. "Someone." There are so many "someones." We don't care for them. What Kṛṣṇa says, we accept. That's all.
Doctor: But this Kaṭha-Upaniṣad praises oṁ.
etad ālambanaṁ param
etad ālambanaṁ jñātvā
Prabhupāda: Yes, Upaniṣad is giving lesson, counterpart of this material world. Because... Just like you are stressing on oṁkāra because you do not give much importance to Kṛṣṇa. In the material world, Kṛṣṇa..., they think Kṛṣṇa is one of the historical person. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11]. So Upaniṣad is teaching us in an indirect way about the importance of Kṛṣṇa. Upa-niṣat: to bring you nearby. Because you have got so many material conception, if we say that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," you may not like it. Therefore... Oṁkāra is Kṛṣṇa. So you are giving lesson on oṁkāra. Although Kṛṣṇa and oṁkāra is not different, but you'll not like Kṛṣṇa. In your present position you'll not like Kṛṣṇa's name.
Prabhupāda: No. Therefore you are stressing...
Doctor: No, I have read all this, and I am trying to reconcile.
Prabhupāda: Ah. So that is for the neophytes.
Doctor: The reconciliation is there. Oṁ is Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is oṁ.
Prabhupāda: So if Kṛṣṇa is... If you are convinced, then where is the objection of Hare Kṛṣṇa?
Doctor: No, no.
Prabhupāda: Why should you bring so many objections?
Doctor: Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact.
Doctor: Ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28].
Prabhupāda: But because I do not like, therefore Upaniṣads give another chance, that "Chant oṁkāra." That is the way. Because unless one is completely purified, he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa.
bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ
Kṛṣṇa-bhajana is possible when one is completely free from all kinds of sinful activities. So not everyone is freed from sinful activities. Therefore the indirect way. Otherwise, Upaniṣad is Veda.
Doctor: Based on Vedas. Right.
Prabhupāda: Based. Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. By studying Vedas, Upaniṣads, if you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, that means your study is not complete. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. After studying this indirect information of Kṛṣṇa, when one is actually a learned, wise man, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. That is very rarely found. This is fact. So if one is intelligent, that if only the most intelligent person, after many, many births one has to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, why not do it immediately? Why shall I wait for many, many births? That is intelligence.
Doctor: Śrī-kṛṣṇas tu śaraṇaṁ mama.
Prabhupāda: Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. That is intelligence. But that intelligence is not possible for ordinary persons. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. One who gets this intelligence, such kind of mahātmā is very, very rarely found. To take it immediately, ah, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28], vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti, that is very difficult.
kaścid yatati siddhaye
yatatām api siddhānāṁ
kaścin vetti māṁ tattvataḥ
It is not so easy to understand Kṛṣṇa or to accept Kṛṣṇa as all in all. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam. But if you take it, you are fortunate.
Doctor: And the only way to attain is reciting the name.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Do that. Therefore the temple is there. Everyone may come and see Kṛṣṇa and think of Him. What is the difficulty? But he'll not come. He has concluded Kṛṣṇa is nirākāra. God is nirākāra.
Doctor: Then Kṛṣṇa will not come.
Prabhupāda: Well, now, Kṛṣṇa... You... Whatever you think, that is your business, but Kṛṣṇa is there everywhere.
Doctor: He is nirākāra and sākāra.
Prabhupāda: Nirākāra means He has no material ākāra. That is nirākāra. Ākāra means we have got... Just like I have conception of you. So this ākāra is your material ākāra. It is not your real ākāra. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. The real person is within the body, but we have no connection with the real body. We see this outward... Just like seeing his dress, his... That's all.
Doctor: How to find the...? How to get to the ātman, the inner body?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the first instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā, that first of all, try to understand what is the person. So because we have no eyes to see, indirectly, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāram... [Bg. 2.13]. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ [Bg. 2.18]. So many things. Nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ. So many indirect way because we cannot directly perceive.
Doctor: Nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ [Bg. 2.23].
Prabhupāda: What is called? Definition by negation. Nainaṁ chindanti---negation. So that you can have some idea.
Doctor: Of what it is.
Prabhupāda: It is not material. Because matter, chindanti, any matter, it can be destroyed. It can be cut into pieces, it can be melted in fire, it can be moistened. So when we cannot understand things, it is given in the definition of negation.
Doctor: But then it's much better to worship God in form.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is intelligence. If you accept Kṛṣṇa immediately, man-manā bhava mad..., then your life is successful. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśaya [Bg. 18.65], He said. But they are not interested. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 9.11]. "Ah, Kṛṣṇa is a historical person. Why shall I think of Him? I shall think of oṁkāra." You cannot think of oṁkāra. You can hear. And as soon as you think of oṁkāra, it comes form. There is no impersonality. It again becomes personal. So they want to avoid personality and as well as think of Him---it becomes a very troublesome job. Kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta-cetasām [Bg. 12.5]. They cannot think of avyakta, impersonal. But they are trying to think of. And that is a very troublesome job. Kleśala eva avaśiṣyate. Such attempt means he simply gets the result of his hard endeavor. That's all. He doesn't get any substance.
Doctor: So with faith accept the...
Prabhupāda: No faith---it is fact. Faith is blind.
Doctor: Faith is blind.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Faith with good knowledge, that is nice. If you have good knowledge of Kṛṣṇa and you have faith, that is very good. But if you... Just like Māyāvādīs, they say, "Imagine Kṛṣṇa as God." They say, "Imagine."
Doctor: That is no good.
Prabhupāda: They are no good. Kalpana. They say kalpana. Sādhakānāṁ gitarthaya[?] brahma-rūpa-kalpana. Rūpa-kalpana. But Kṛṣṇa's rūpa is not kalpana; it is fact. So kalpana is not faith, it is blind. "Let me imagine some form of Kṛṣṇa." And therefore gradually, they come down to the position that any form you imagine as God, that is all right. They have come to this degradation.
Doctor: That you can, any form...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Any form you imagine that he is God, that will give you success. They say like that.
Doctor: I think I have taken too much of time.
Prabhupāda: I am going there at six.
Doctor: Words of enlightenment.
Hari-śauri: Have you got any of Prabhupāda's books?
Doctor: I have got some. I bought all the volumes of translation of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. I have got all of them. But some of them have not arrived from United States, the latest ones. And I have got...
Hari-śauri: Bhagavad-gītā. That's very nice.
Prabhupāda: You are staying in New Delhi?
Doctor: I stay in the Hague and come to New Delhi when there are no cases.
Prabhupāda: Holland. That is the international court?
Doctor: Yes, the court case located, the headquarters.
Prabhupāda: I went somewhere, that is also international. In Geneva, I think. Is there any...?
Doctor: Geneva is another headquarters of the..., of the United Nations. New York, Geneva. But the court is in the Hague.
Prabhupāda: So I went to that place in Geneva.
Doctor: Geneva has got so many specialized agencies of the United Nations, like the I.L.O. and so on.
Prabhupāda: Do you think United Nation is making any tangible progress?
Doctor: Sir, it at least brings people together under one umbrella to discuss. If you did not have that...
Prabhupāda: But discussion, that I have already explained.
Doctor: That maybe, but if you don't discuss, you'll fight.
Doctor: Because if aim we don't meet at all, then they will have the struggle.
Prabhupāda: No. If you have no idea how to come to the conclusion, ciraṁ vicinvan [SB 10.14.29], you can forever go on discussing, you'll never come... You do not know what is the aim. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ [SB 7.5.31].
Doctor: May be so, but if two people instead of coming to blows come together to talk, it is a step in the right direction.
Prabhupāda: No right direction, because he does not know what is the aim.
Doctor: They both want to have peace, so they at least try to...
Prabhupāda: Everyone wants that. But if he does not know how to attain peace, then you'll go on discussing forever. That is going on.
Doctor: But it is still a step in the right direction...
Prabhupāda: I don't think there is any advancement.
Doctor: ...otherwise, what is the aim?
Prabhupāda: Otherwise, there is; but you don't take, how it can be done? In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated,
jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati
This is the process. But if you don't take it...
Doctor: But if that realization does not dawn... Till that realization...
Prabhupāda: Then you go on barking. That is another thing.
Doctor: [laughs] It's better to bark than to fight.
Prabhupāda: Then that is your satisfaction. You can do that peacefully.
Doctor: One day after barking they will come to a conclusion.
Prabhupāda: No, that is... Let it be known, fact, that that will never come, if you do not know what is the aim. That is stated in the..., durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. This is, means, a bad hope, that by this external exhibition of manipulation of energy, they will come to peace. It is not possible. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ adānta-gobhir... [SB 7.5.31]. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. This kind of leading is made by the blind leaders. If the leaders are blind and the followers are blind, what result will be there?
Doctor: That is true, sir, but that stage has not come. One day it will come. But till that stage and that realization of...
Prabhupāda: No, stage is there. But if the obstinate persons, they do not take it... Here it is clearly said... Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29] = "I am the proprietor of all the lands, all the planets." So how can you say no? There must be someone proprietor.
Doctor: But then God Himself has created the ego in man.
Prabhupāda: No, no. He has created...
Doctor: God is the creator. He's also the creator of the ego of man.
Prabhupāda: He has created ego. That is a fact. But you are utilizing the ego in a different way.
Doctor: Because the realization is not there.
Prabhupāda: He is giving the intelligence, but you are not accepting.
Doctor: Maybe so.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difficulty. He has come to give you instruction, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg. 4.7]. When you forget---there is glānir, discrepancies, in the discharge of your duties---He comes to give you instruction, but you don't accept. Now what can be done? The teacher is giving you instruction, but you don't accept. Then how you'll be educated? This is going on. Mūḍho nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam [Bg. 7.25]. They do not accept. They will write comments on Bhagavad-gītā in their own way. You see? Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Yes. As it is. Don't comment in your own way. You'll not get any profit. Take, for example, any law, government law. Can I comment in my own way?
Prabhupāda: Then why you comment on Bhagavad-gītā?
Doctor: The law is meant for obedience.
Prabhupāda: That's all. Similarly, if you accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord, then whatever He has said... Just like Arjuna says, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava [Bg. 10.14] = "Whatever you are saying, Keśava, I accept them in total." That is acceptance.
Doctor: [laughs] Along this note, I'll... [break] [end]