Evening Darśana , Delhi , 1976-09-01

Prabhupāda: ...required to kill somebody, he'll do that---if it is required for his sense gratification. There are many instances that a woman is addicted to another man, and she has killed her husband, killed her son. Why? Sense gratification. I have seen one woman, my Godbrother's wife, she killed her son for being implicated with another man. I have seen it. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. Things which are not to be done, they do it. Why? For the matter of sense gratification. They do it. That's a fact. So therefore simply for sense gratification they are prepared to do anything. That means pāpa. It is the verdict of the court that when a man kills another man he becomes mad. Without becoming mad, a man cannot kill another man. So everything is being done which is not sanctioned because for sense gratification. The whole world business is sense gratification. And at the end, when he's little spiritually inclined, he wants to satisfy senses by thinking artificially that "I shall become God." That is the greatest sense gratification. Because remaining a small living entity I have been hampered in my sense gratification. Now let me become God so that there will be no restriction of my sense gratification. Bhagavān [indistinct]. Because he has failed to satisfy his senses remaining non-Bhagavān, now he wants to become Bhagavān. Yogī, that is also another sense gratification, that if I show some magic, if I can create little gold like this, hundreds and thousands of men will be after me and I shall live very nicely, just gratify my senses. These things are going on practically. The man who is manufacturing gold, and so many rich people are coming to his disciples and he's begging for a motorcar. If he can create gold, why he cannot create a motorcar? This is going on. [long Hindi conversation, with different guests arriving and leaving]

Indian man (1): Apnāra praśna hai? [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: But so far you must fix up what you want.

Indian man (1): What is realization?

Prabhupāda: Realization---everything is realization. If you can do business well, that is also realization.

Indian man (1): Realization of God.

Prabhupāda: Then you, if you want...

Indian man (1): Realization of God.

Prabhupāda: Realization of God, [Hindi], bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. So "If you want to know Me, then bhaktyā, bhakti." [Hindi] Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ. If you want to know God really, then you have to take this path, bhakti. If you want something else, that is a different thing.

[Hindi conversation]

Find out this verse. [Hindi] Somebody, you can read? [rings bell] [Hindi] Somebody... Why don't you send? What they are doing, all these rascals, that they cannot read?

Devotee: Someone should come in?

Prabhupāda: Yes. But they do not know that somebody should remain there. Why they are there? What they are doing there?

Hari-śauri: Harikeśa is typing. Pradyumna is reading Sanskrit books.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Send Pradyumna immediately. Kleśo 'dhikarataras teṣām avyaktasakta-cetasam. Kleśa. Beginning with kleśa. [devotees tries to find verse] You could not? Kleśa. K-l-e-s. Why don't you come here? And who will find out? Come here.

Devotee: Kleśo 'dhikarataras teṣām?

Prabhupāda: Why do you say that you do not find? Find out. They are not accustomed. Kleśo'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta-cetasām [Bg. 12.5]. [Hindi] [Pradyumna enters] Read it.

Pradyumna:

Prabhupāda: Ah. Avyaktā hi gatir duḥkham. [Hindi] Read it.

Pradyumna: "For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied."

Prabhupāda: Yes. [Hindi] You are expecting happiness by thinking of impersonal form of the Lord. That is not possible. You simply get troubles, that's all. [Hindi] What is the purport?

Pradyumna: "The group of transcendentalists who follow the path of the inconceivable, unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme Lord are called jñāna-yogis, and persons who are in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness, engaged in devotional service to the Lord, are called bhakti-yogis. Now here the difference between jñāna-yoga and bhakti-yoga is definitely expressed."

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa personally says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. [Hindi] If you like to tolerate adi-kleśa, that is your choice. Otherwise, Bhagavān, sac-cid-ānanda...

[Hindi] You can accept any way. That is your choice.

[Hindi] Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa vigraha. Sac-cid-ānanda vigraha [Bs. 5.1]. [Hindi conversation for some time with different guests] Bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām. Find out this verse.

[Hindi] Find out.

Pradyumna:

"In the minds of those who are too attached to sense enjoyment and material opulence, and who are bewildered by such things, the resolute determination of devotional service to the Supreme Lord does not take place."

Prabhupāda: This qualification.

Surendra Kumar Saigal: Your Divine Grace, how long are you staying at Vṛndāvana?

Prabhupāda: I'm going... Oh, Vṛndāvana? Three weeks.

Surendra Kumar Saigal: When you are...

Prabhupāda: Any time you are home.

Surendra Kumar Saigal: Any time which is convenient to Your Divine Grace. Shall I come over to Vṛndāvana on the 15th evening? Fifteenth evening, I'll come over to Vṛndāvana?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Surendra Kumar Saigal: And then what is the program? Your Divine Grace is coming back to Delhi from Vṛndāvana after three weeks' stay?

Prabhupāda: They have made program to go to Chandigarh.

Surendra Kumar Saigal: Chandigarh. You can [indistinct] Aligarh. Your Divine Grace can go to Aligarh to Delhi. The route is almost the same distance from here to Vṛndāvana. And you can go to Vṛndāvana via Aligarh. About five miles, eight miles difference. It won't cost you much mileage-wise.

Prabhupāda: [Hindi]

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. The road is okay. You said we should go to Vṛndāvana via Aligarh?

Surendra Kumar Saigal: In my opinion you should. I heard that road is very bad. Five or six kilometers they have raised the road by about six, seven feet, and all this is all mud and muck, and the car skids. In my opinion, you go via Aligarh.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Or we can come to Aligarh from Vṛndāvana.

Surendra Kumar Saigal: I'm suggesting because I don't want to [indistinct] go back to Vṛndāvana and then come. [indistinct] [Gopāla Kṛṣṇa converses with Indians about which road to take]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi conversation]

Pradyumna: Bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ... Purport? Purport = "Samādhi means 'fixed mind.' The Vedic dictionary, the Nirukti, says, samyag ādhīyate 'sminn ātmatattva-yāthātmyam: 'When the mind is fixed for understanding the self, it is called samādhi.' Samādhi is never possible for persons interested in material sense enjoyment, nor for those who are bewildered by such temporary things. They are more or less condemned by the process of material energy."

Prabhupāda: [Hindi conversation] Na tat-prayāsaḥ kartavyam, Prahlāda Mahārāja? You have got that?

Pradyumna: Na tat-prayāsaḥ kartavyam.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Harikeśa: Some mahā-prasādam.

Prabhupāda: For me?

Harikeśa: They are offering it to you.

Prabhupāda: Na tat-prayāsaḥ kartavyam. [aside:] He can go. You can go. You have [indistinct] now. [Hindi conversation] He..., her son---he is the father and mother---he's an Indian, in Detroit, very good boy, getting very nice. He, living in the temple, husband-wife, child we have. Bacā, ek bacā? He's getting very happy, very nice boy. [Hindi] Just like their son, he's educated very nicely. Educated boys are joining from foreign countries, and not from here. [Hindi conversation] Here is Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, [Hindi] he was sales manager in Coca-Cola. [Hindi] ...dollar, he has given. [Hindi conversation] You have got that book? Ah... Stillson Judah's?

Pradyumna: No. It's in Bombay. We may have a copy in Vṛndāvana also.

Prabhupāda: One professor, Stillson Judah, he has written one book. After studying our movement five years he has written one Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counterculture.

Surendra Kumar Saigal: Counterculture.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counterculture. [Hindi]

Pradyumna: Doesn't have a copy here. It's published by Princeton University Press. In their religion..., in their set of volumes on different religions.

Indian woman: [Hindi] Prasādam. [Hindi conversation; new guest arrives] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Mr. Patnaik [Defense Minister]: How are you, sir?

Prabhupāda: [Hindi conversation] You came here for some...

Mr. Patnaik: Yes, then I thought I would go to your old place. The [indistinct] this was here [indistinct]. The old place, I didn't get any response. There was nobody there now. But when you shifted from there? There is nobody there now.

Prabhupāda: No.

Mr. Patnaik: [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: And this place is better than that.

Mr. Patnaik: Very much. Oh, yes. How long you will stay?

Prabhupāda: I am going tomorrow, Vṛndāvana.

Mr. Patnaik: [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: I'll be three weeks there.

Mr. Patnaik: [indistinct English]

Prabhupāda: Still, it is Vṛndāvana. Still, it is Vṛndāvana.

Mr. Patnaik: Of course.

Prabhupāda: Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam. [Hindi] As He is worshipable, similarly, Vṛndāvana dhāma is also worshipable. Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam ramya kācid upāsana vraja-vadhū-vargeṇā va kalpitā. Upāsana, vraja-vadhū, the vraja, damsels of vrajabhūmi, the gopīs, as they worship the Lord, there is no comparison to that process of worship. Vraja-vadhū-vargeṇā. Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvana.

Mr. Patnaik: I think we are going there after Parliament session closes tomorrow. [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: Where? Vṛndāvana.

Mr. Patnaik: Vṛndāvana. [indistinct] Then I was told that Mathurā and [indistinct]. Full.

Prabhupāda: They spend so much money for the roadways; still it is not good.

Mr. Patnaik: Draining the different levels, question arises, the water, the excessive in quantity, and the natural drains are not efficient enough to take it out. [indistinct] I was told that...

Prabhupāda: There is no sufficient outlet.

Mr. Patnaik: Yes. But some of those āśrama, Mathurā, it's very deep, that four feet water in the āśramas. Three, four feet water.

Prabhupāda: Within the āśramas?

Mr. Patnaik: And temple. You haven't recives any message from Vṛndāvana?

Pradyumna: Our temple is all right. Raman Reti is not flooded where we are. It's almost up to Fogel Ashram in the back, Yamunā, but it has not come to our Raman Reti.

Mr. Patnaik: And now you will remain here in India for some time?

Prabhupāda: That I do not know. I, actually, now it is little troublesome for me to travel all the year.

Mr. Patnaik: You are just gone from [indistinct]. So when the guests arrive...

Prabhupāda: Rest, if I rest then there may be... Because I am dealing with all neophytes. If I don't keep them alive by personal presence... Still, they are doing nice. I have appointed twenty secretaries all over the world. I am training them. They are managing. Managing nicely. I have been in New York and Los Angeles and Hawaii, all big, big centers. London, Paris.

Mr. Patnaik: Oh, it's a very great. Your program for Kurukṣetra and etcetera and the...

Prabhupāda: Program was that they promised to give me a land.

Mr. Patnaik: Who?

Prabhupāda: That Chief Minister.

Mr. Patnaik: Have they done so?

Prabhupāda: Not yet.

Mr. Patnaik: I heard about two acres was available recently, except that it... [talks about land---indistinct] I wrote you that the manner in which approach was made upset those people. And the Minister, I later learned [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: We are trying for another big scheme in Bengal. We have applied to the government to acquire land, 350 acres, a big planetarium. Planetarium. We have described the planetarium in our Fifth Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. In that planetarium it is said that the moon is above the sun planet, by one million six hundred thousand miles.

Mr. Patnaik: What does astronomy say? The modern astronomy.

Prabhupāda: They say the moon planet is nearer to earth planet, and they have gone there.

Mr. Patnaik: Have you given up any idea about Kurukṣetra?

Prabhupāda: No, no, not...

Mr. Patnaik: No, because if you have the idea, the land is the least part of it, because so much is to be done. [indistinct] if the idea is that something should be done. I learned that gentleman, Mr. [indistinct] ...and he has said that he will do something. I was not there at the time of the [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: [aside] You bring one little plate prasādam from there, from that...

Mr. Patnaik: And you will be in Vṛndāvana for some...

Prabhupāda: Three weeks.

Mr. Patnaik: After that you don't know. After that where you go, you don't know.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Patnaik: Well, this is God's work, Lord Kṛṣṇa's work. I am trying [indistinct] to cooperate with you, because nobody can do.

Prabhupāda: No, you have done tremendous work.

Mr. Patnaik: No, but which is very little considering the situation, the condition, problem in the country. I am at a lower level than your level than your work [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: The one encouraging thing in this movement is that our books are being very much appreciated. In all universities, foreign and Indian, libraries, professors, learned scholars.

Mr. Patnaik: Yes, they'll branch out and then... It's a great service.

Prabhupāda: We are selling books to the extent of sixty thousand dollars daily.

Mr. Patnaik: I see.

Prabhupāda: That is our only hope, that we shall not be financially in difficulty. People are taking our books very nicely. People are accepting our literature.

Mr. Patnaik: It is not that difficulties were not there also [indistinct]. I don't have the support, but I feel [indistinct] find that several places the demand for this, for the acceptance also [indistinct] coming forward, but not in the manner in which I had wanted. [indistinct] ...lakhs of people stand against the forces which want to [indistinct] religion and moral side. There should be a linking up of all those who want religion to remain and morality to also be there. Those forces have to be met by also organized force from the right kind of people, religious people. [indistinct] I hope they are not coming in your way.

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Mr. Patnaik: I remember that you had written yourself that there is something we could do together. Possibly this question, building and all that, whenever it comes there. It is good to have that building and that land, but even before that, there is work to be done at the Kurukṣetra.

Prabhupāda: My point is that Kurukṣetra is the place where Bhagavad-gītā was spoken. So if we take the words of Bhagavad-gītā as it is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, then people will be benefitted.

Mr. Patnaik: That is basic, of course. The foundation.

Prabhupāda: But if we do not take the words of Bhagavad-gītā, then moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ [Bg. 9.12]. That I believe. [aside:] Find out this verse. Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo.

Mr. Patnaik: That's true. I also believe that there must be a direct...

Prabhupāda: No, why not direct?

Mr. Patnaik: Putting in your interpretation, that is wrong. It should be direct. That doesn't mean only those people who have accepted this can come together.

Prabhupāda: And why the others will not accept?

Mr. Patnaik: No, we have made, you must have seen our literature, Gītā as a text, but still people may not judge...

Prabhupāda: No, no, we should not depend on the people's acceptance only. We have to present Gītā as it is. Now everything is not accepted by everyone. Even if you make change, there is no guarantee that they will...

Mr. Patnaik: No, no.

Prabhupāda: No, no, I am not speaking to you. Anyone.

Mr. Patnaik: I am not trying to make a show. I believe a direct interpretation is important thing more than the other kinds of ideas and conceptions.

Pradyumna:

"Those who are thus bewildered are attracted by demoniac and atheistic views. In that deluded condition, their hopes for liberation, their fruitive activities and their culture of knowledge are all defeated."

Prabhupāda: Go on. Go on. I have given any purport?

Pradyumna: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. "There are many devotees who assume themselves to be in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and devotional service but at heart do not accept the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, as the Absolute Truth. For them, the fruit of devotional service---going back to Godhead---will never be tasted. Similarly, those who are engaged in fruitive, pious activities and who are ultimately hoping to be liberated from this material entanglement will never be successful either, because they deride the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. In other words, persons who mock Kṛṣṇa are to be understood to be demoniac or atheistic. As described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, such demoniac miscreants never surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore their mental speculations to arrive at the Absolute Truth bring them to the false conclusion that the ordinary living entity and Kṛṣṇa are one and the same. With such a false conviction, they think that the body of any human being is now simply covered by material nature and that as soon as one is liberated from this material body there is no difference between God and himself. This attempt to become one with Kṛṣṇa will be baffled because of delusion. Such atheistic and demoniac cultivation of spiritual knowledge is always futile. That is the indication of this verse. For such persons, cultivation of the knowledge in the Vedic literature, like the Vedānta-sūtra and the Upaniṣads, is always baffled.

"It is a great offense, therefore, to consider Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, to be an ordinary man. Those who do so are certainly deluded, because they cannot understand the eternal form of Kṛṣṇa. In the Bṛhad-vaiṣṇava mantra it is clearly stated that one who considers the body of Kṛṣṇa to be material should be driven out from all rituals and activities of the śruti. And if one by chance sees his face, he should at once take bath in the Ganges to rid himself of infection. People jeer at Kṛṣṇa because they are envious of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Their destiny is certainly to take birth after birth in the species of atheistic and demoniac life. Perpetually, their real knowledge will remain under delusion, and gradually they will regress to the darkest region of creation."

Mr. Patnaik: [indistinct] I was reading this yesterday, the Eleventh Chapter.

Prabhupāda: Eleventh Chapter?

Mr. Patnaik: Eleventh Chapter, yes. There are twelve, twelve chapters. There, Kṛṣṇa Bhagavān has a dialogue with Uddhava.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Pradyumna: He's referring to Ekādaśa-skandha of the Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Uddhava.

Mr. Patnaik: And there I felt..., I thought that maybe whenever we meet I'll bring up this question with you. 'Cause the way in which it has been translated in Hindi which I read it does create a little question as to what Bhagavān Himself said about the status of the soul, the individual soul, and relationship, [indistinct]. Because although I think I should have got it, they don't give it to the Life Members [indistinct].

Pradyumna: Yes, Bhāgavatam, we're up to the Seventh Canto now in the printing.

Mr. Patnaik: So this canto has come.

Pradyumna: Yes, the canto has come out. So Saptama-skandha, pādyokta. We're up to that.

Mr. Patnaik: Now, well then if it is, if the member is [indistinct]. Now in the Eleventh there is...

Prabhupāda: Eleventh Canto, yes. Then you will remember the verse?

Mr. Patnaik: No, no, number [indistinct] again and again I had gone to that, and as to that, ultimately there is no difference. As soon as this [indistinct], when it comes. I would like this because I belong to the sect of our country, middle sect, from Swami Narayana. He's based on Rāmānujācārya philosophy, which says that all the souls are there, they are the body of the creator Bhagavān, just as the human ātmā has this body. This means there is the difference also identity. Identity is one, and yet they have their own place. That have been the faith which I have been [indistinct]. Now in many places this sometimes this differentiation remains, sometimes there is things said which wipe it out. I thought you would be the best person to give me some guidance...

Prabhupāda: As you say that Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad-gītā, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. We living entities, we are part and parcel of God.

Mr. Patnaik: Aṁśa.

Prabhupāda: Aṁśa. So any common man can understand what is the... [break] [end]