Conversation with Seven Ministers of Andhra Pradesh , Hyderabad , 1976-08-22

[Ministers for Endowments, Social Services, Revenue, Public Works Department, Minor Irrigation, Rehabilitation and Fisheries] [Hindi]


Prabhupāda: Our subject matter of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that systematize... The progress of human society should be systematized according to śāstra. Just like your government, it is conducted under certain rules and regulations. You have to refer to the government regulative principles, and expert government officers, they are selected. Formally it was ICS, now it is IAS. That means reference to the authorities. Similarly, there are authorities which are called śāstra. Śās-dhātu means to rule. From śās-dhātu, śāstra and śastra. Śastra means weapon. If you do not act according to the śāstra then there is śastra. Śastra means weapon, government. If you violate the rules of the government then there is police department, there is military department which will force you to accept the government regulation. And from the same śās-dhātu is śiṣya, one who voluntarily accepts the discipline.

yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya
vartate kāma-kārataḥ
na sa siddhim avāpnoti
na sukhaṁ na parāṁ gatim

The aim of human life is parāṁ gatim. Parāṁ gatim means the supreme perfection. Gatim means progress, and parām means the supreme. Our life is progressive. By evolution we have come to this human form of life through many forms of life.

jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi
sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati
kṛmayo rudra-saṅkhyayaḥ
pakṣīṇāṁ daśa-lakṣaṇam

[Padma Purāṇa]

Like that. In the beginning there was water, so the living entities were aquatics. Then, as the land came out, sthāvara, then plants, creepers, trees. So we have to pass through nine lakhs' species of life in the water. Then trees, plants, two millions, twenty lakhs. In this way there are 8,400,000 species of life, and when you come to the human form of life... Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19], we get this form of life. Now we have to select = parāṁ gatim or adho gatim. We are given the chance of human form of life for further advancement. And that is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

yānti deva-vratā devān
pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ
bhūtejyā yānti bhūtāni
mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām

So if you worship the demigods, Indra, Candra, Varuṇa---yānti deva-vratā devān---then you can go to the higher planetary system. They are trying to go to the moon planet. In that way it is not possible. You have to be qualified to go there, not by machine, by force you can go there. That is not possible. Yānti deva-vratā devān. So... And also you can go, mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām. You can go to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

So we have to make choice in this human form of life. Actually, the aim should be to go back home, back to Godhead. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama [Bg. 15.6]. Ābrahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna [Bg. 8.16]. Otherwise, within this material world, even if you go to the higher planetary system, then punar āvartinaḥ, you have to come back again. Now the human form of life should be properly utilized. If we think that this life is everything, that is wrong conception of life. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. You have to change this body. Transmigration of the soul. So by transmigration of the soul we have got this human form of life. If we properly utilize it, then you can make further progress. And if we do not, if we keep ourself as animals, then we'll degrade. Adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ.

ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā
madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ
adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ

So nature's law is there, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. We are not independent. We are dependent under the laws of material nature. So we should properly utilize this human form of life, and government or king means to guide the citizens how to make progress of life. That is the duty of the government. They should be given all chances to make progress. Formerly, all the kings were responsible for the progress of the citizens, progress of life. The same principle should be followed. That is the statement of the śāstra. The brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra... To maintain the body, just like we require the head, the arms, the belly and the legs, similarly, we must maintain the brain of the society, the brāhmaṇa; and the arms of the society, kṣatriyas; and the belly of the society, the vaiśyas; and the legs of the society, the śūdra. Everything is required. Not that simply brain is required and leg is not required. No, everything is required under proper guidance for the total benefit of the society. So direction is there. That is śāstra. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya... If we do not care for the śāstra, whimsically manufacture our own ways of life, na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti, it will never be successful. Na sukham. And there will be no happiness. Na parāṁ gatim. Therefore the whole process is yajñārthāt karmaṇa. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9]. Yajñārthāt. Yajña means the Supreme Lord, Viṣṇu. Yajña means yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. After performing yajña, if we enjoy life, then there is no sinful reaction. Otherwise, bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt [Bg. 3.13].

So all directions are there in the śāstra, and the essence of all Vedic literature is the Bhagavad-gītā. So at the present moment, our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that it doesn't matter what kind of state it is, but it should follow the principle of yajña. Yajñārthe karmaṇa. Otherwise, we shall be responsible. Just like, for example, a military man, what is his business? His business is killing. So by the government order he is killing, and the more number of enemies he kills, he gets medal, reward. But the same man, if he kills one man, he'll be hanged---for his own sense gratification. He cannot argue that "In the military camp I have killed so many men, and I was rewarded, and now I have killed one man and I am going to be hanged. Why?" The question may be raised. No foolish man will raise the question. That means that killing is under the superior order, and this killing is for your sense gratification. So if you do anything for our sense gratification then it will be stena eva sa ucyate [Bg. 3.12]. He is punishable. But if we execute the supreme order, then you are rewarded. The same action.

We are requesting therefore everywhere---not only in India; all over the world---that act according to the order of the Supreme, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. And gradually they are accepting the principle. So why not in India? In India... The Bhagavad-gītā was spoken in India. Still, in India there are many devotees, many Kṛṣṇa conscious persons. Especially in this province, you are very great devotees of Bālajī. Bālajī is Kṛṣṇa, Bāla Kṛṣṇa. So I wish that the government may be conducted under the guide of Bālajī, Lord Kṛṣṇa. That is my request. And the codes and the orders and the rules and regulations, they're all stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. So if we follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā and accept... We accept, consciously or unconsciously. That is our Indian culture, Vedic culture. Still, hundreds and thousands of people go to see Bālajī, and they contribute their hard-earned money for worshiping the Lord. This is the principle. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9]. I have seen in Bālajī temple, mostly cultivators, they come, stand whole day there just to offer something, yajñārthe, for the satisfaction of the Lord. It's a great culture. Yajñārthe karmaṇo 'nyatra.

So karma, ordinary fruitive activities, should be carried on for yajñārthe, for the satisfaction of Bālajī, or Kṛṣṇa. Not otherwise. The same, what is gathered as contribution, it should be utilized for yajña. Because the money is given for yajña, not for other purposes. That is a fact. Of course, the money is there. The innocent villagers, they have given the money in good faith that Kṛṣṇa, or Bālajī, will accept it and their hard labor will be successful. Yajñārthe karmaṇa. Now that money should be properly utilized for yajñārthe. Actually, everything belongs to God, Bālajī. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. We are claiming unnecessarily, "This is mine." That is called māyā. Nothing belongs to us. Everything belongs to the Supreme Lord. But we have claimed the Lord's property as our own. That is misgiving. Therefore yajña is recommended. Return to the Supreme voluntarily. That is called yajña.

puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān
viṣṇur ārādhyate panthā
nānyat tat-toṣa-kāraṇam

[Cc. Madhya 8.58]

The varṇāśrama-dharma---brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya---this is plan just to teach the whole society how to perform yajña. Varṇāśramācāra-vatā. Therefore this is the beginning of human civilization, varṇāśrama: how to return back. Just like Bali Mahārāja. Bali Mahārāja achieved, obtained, throughout the universe all the property, and he again returned to Vāmana. That was his success of life. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is an educational movement to teach people how one should voluntarily return the property of the Lord to the Lord. That is called yajña. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9].

So people actually suffering. Not only... This material life means suffering. We may say that we are very happy, but that is not the fact. Tri-tāpa, three kinds of miserable condition of life, are there always = adhyātmika, adhibhautika, adhidaivika. But we are accustomed to suffering, and we say suffering is happiness. That is called māyā. Actually, material life is... This body, as soon as we get this body, it means suffering.

nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma
yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti
na sādhu manye yata ātmano 'yam
asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ

Kleśada. Material body means kleśa, suffering. Why you are using this fan? Because without fan the body will be in pain, painful condition. So we are adjusting, trying to counteract. But the position is miserable. Therefore whole plan of Vedic civilization---how to avoid this material body. That is called mokṣa. That is the plan. So Ṛṣabhadeva is advising that nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. People have become mad, and they're doing everything which is not sanctioned by the śāstra. Pramatta. Pramatta means mad. And why they have become mad? Indriya-prītaye: for sense gratification. There is no big hope. It is simply sense gratification. Sense gratification is there even in the animal life. So human life is not meant for sense gratification. That is also said in the śāstra.

nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke
kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye
tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed
sattvaṁ yena brahmānandam-anantam

So the human life is meant for tapasya, not for sense gratification. Sense gratification, the facility is there even in the hogs' and dogs' life.

So the human life is meant for yajña. We have got this chance. And especially in your province there is Bālajī, and Bālajī has got sufficient income. That income should be utilized for satisfaction of Bālajī. Not otherwise. That is our request. People are suffering for want of God consciousness. So everything should be spent for spreading God consciousness all over the world. At least, people are contributing to Bālajī, so whatever Bālajī's property is there, that should be utilized for Bālajī's mission. The Bālajī's mission is... That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ
mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati
na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu
kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ

This idaṁ guhyam, this confidential knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā, should be spread all over the world. People are suffering. And that is the mission of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He advises that,

āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa
yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa

[Cc. Madhya 7.128]

So it will be glory of India if we preach the message of Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad-gītā. They're accepting. And I wish that the Bālajī's estate, Bālajī's money, should be spent for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not for any other purpose. That is my request.

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. [applause]

Indian man (1): Please permit...

Prabhupāda: Your question is?

Indian man (1): Yes, varṇāśrama, I wanted to, Swāmījī...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Varṇāśramācāra-vatā. The varṇa and āśrama I've already explained. Just like for maintenance of the whole body there are different parts = the brain, the arm, the belly and the leg. Similarly, varṇāśrama means the head, brāhmaṇa; the arms, kṣatriya; the belly, vaiśya; and the leg, śūdra. So by nature these divisions are there. Varṇa, four varṇas, and four āśramas. Four varṇas means social divisions, and four āśrama, spiritual division. So apart from spiritual division---brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa---the social division must be observed. The brain must be there, brāhmaṇa. Everything must be there. Not only the brain. The arms also required---military department, or kṣatriya department. Yuddhe cāpy apalayanam [Bg. 18.43]. The kṣatriyas are so brave, they don't go away from fighting field, battlefield. Just like Arjuna was trying to become nonviolent. Immediately Kṛṣṇa chastised him, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam anārya-juṣṭam akīrti-karam [Bg. 2.2]. So everything is required. It is not that everyone should become brāhmaṇa. Neither it is possible that everyone should be able to become brāhmaṇa. It is not so easy thing. But a class of brāhmaṇa must be maintained. A class of brāhmaṇa must be there as ideal to consult with them. Similarly, a class of kṣatriya must be there, a class of vaiśya must be there. This is called varṇāśrama. For the peaceful execution of material life these things are required, division. Just like in your government you have got some different ministerial department you have introduced = this minister is for this department, this minister... Similarly, the brain department must be there. Without brain, even... Suppose a madman, he has got his hands and legs, but it is useless because the brain is lost. So brain must be there.

So this varṇāśrama, revival of varṇāśrama, is required. A class of men, brāhmaṇa---sattva śamo damas titikṣā ārjavaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.42]. As there are different educational system, there must be an educational institute where these things are taught = how to become truthful, how to become self-controlled, how to become full in knowledge, how to become full believer in the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Āstikyam. In this way, as there is necessity of engineer, as there is necessity of medical man, as there is necessity of so many other departmental chiefs, similarly, a department of brāhmaṇa, a department of kṣatriya---that education must be given.

But in this age, because nobody is interested, so everyone is śūdra. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. Everyone, all over the world, they are being educated to seek after some good service. Paricarya: he must have a good master; then his education will be... He cannot act independently. So therefore in the śāstra it is said that everyone is anxious to get a good job; therefore, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ, in this age almost everyone is śūdra. So if śūdras are there only, if there is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśyas, that society will not prosper very much, if we accept the injunction of the śāstra, yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma [Bg. 16.23]. So this brāhmaṇa, or kṣatriya, vaiśya, it is not by birth; it is by qualification. [applause and words of agreement from audience] Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Guṇa. One must acquire the quality of brāhmaṇa and he must act as a brāhmaṇa. Then he is brāhmaṇa. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Even in śūdra family, if one is born śūdra, but he has attained the quality of a brāhmaṇa, he must be accepted as brāhmaṇa. That is the śāstra injunction.

yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ
yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta
tat tenaiva vinirdiśet

That is anyatra. If the quality of brāhmaṇa is found in a person who is born in a śūdra family, he should be accepted as brāhmaṇa. Similarly, if the quality of brāhmaṇa is found in śūdra or the śūdra quality found in brāhmaṇa, I mean to say birth, by caste, as it is going on now, so Nārada Muni has said---this is the statement of Nārada Muni, the greatest authority---yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet [SB 7.11.35]. So birth is not the final thing. If one is born in a brāhmaṇa family or kṣatriya family, he has got the facility to become quickly a brāhmaṇa; but if he has no quality, if he does not practice, then he is not to be accepted as brāhmaṇa. You may be a son of a high-court judge, but unless you have got the quality of high-court judge, it is not that because you are born of high-court judge you become a high-court judge. That is not, that is not the quality. The quality is...

So therefore I say that there must be educational institution for training brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, especially. And vaiśyas, they do not require any academical area. Kṛṣi-gorakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. They can learn simply by associating with another vaiśya. But brāhmaṇa, especially, require education, Vedic literature. Paṭhana-pāṭhana-yajana-yājana-dāna-pratigrahaḥ. Kṣatriya also requires education. Others, they may not require education. Practical training. These things should be introduced. Then human society will be perfect---not by birth, but by quality, by education, by training. But that is possible. So your answer...

Indian man (1): No, the institution for training this, Swāmījī? Your proposition?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. I have got so many ideas.

Indian man (1): In Hyderabad.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [ministers speaking in Hindi] [break] ...institute in your own proposal.


Prabhupāda: [Hindi conversation] This is Telugu?

Indian man: Yes, all Telegu.

Prabhupāda: In every language of the world. In Europe we are printing in English, in French, in Germany, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish.

[much background conversation]

Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] [kīrtana]

[54:35] [in car]

Hari-śauri: That temple of Birla's will be a little difficult to reach. [end]