Evening Darśana , Bombay , 1976-08-14

Prabhupāda: ...fruits, flowers, also grains, milk sufficient. In one farm, Philadelphia, they are producing so much milk that they are selling $1,500.- per month. And they've arranged so nice, and big tank.

Kartikeya Mahadevia: For milk.

Prabhupāda: And the pipes regularly, as they do in dairy farm. When it is not working, only hot water is passing through the pipes to keep them clean. And one cow, the milk bag is so big, he gives 102 pounds daily. Similarly, in France also we have got farm. New Orleans, Philadelphia, West Virginia. We have got four or five.

Kartikeya Mahadevia: San Diego, near Los Angeles.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And all of them are successful. This time I installed Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma Deity in France.

Kartikeya Mahadevia: Paris, near Paris.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Near Orleans.

Kartikeya Mahadevia: I am thinking of going again on a world tour for my business, because we want to start some export business. So I'll start with Iran, then some other countries in Middle East, then Europe, America, Australia, New Zealand, Fiji, Mauritius and Seychelles. I've got friends all over the places, so they will come here, and we have some export business of cloth...

Prabhupāda: Mauritius is not developed. Fiji is good. Mauritius a poor country. Fiji well-to-do, more business, many Gujaratis. Mostly Gujaratis.

Kartikeya Mahadevia: I've got somebody in New Zealand also. They are selling for last four years.

Prabhupāda: Fiji and New Zealand...

Kartikeya Mahadevia: Are very prosperous.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They have got good dealings, purchase and selling.

Kartikeya Mahadevia: Did you meet Mr. Patel met you in Tehran? Bokumi[?] Patel? One Indian is settled there, Patel.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Kartikeya Mahadevia: Bokumi[?] They are very good friends of mine. So I am going to him only. Maitreya Muni is also there, he is also there.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Kartikeya Mahadevia: He is a very nice man.

Prabhupāda: She came to see me twice, Mrs. Patel. She is very nice...

Kartikeya Mahadevia: Very devoted. Her father is my father's friend, Mr. Gigubhai[?] Pota. He was chairman of the Gold Control Board in India. Handlooms are working very nicely. That side of textile, which are made by hand, they are prospering like anything because...

Prabhupāda: They have to remain naked.

Kartikeya Mahadevia: No, khādi is available, so no problem.

Prabhupāda: Available is everything. If you pay, everything is available. Therefore they say, "If you pay, I can supply you tiger's blood." If you pay, everything is available. People have lost completely interest in spiritual life. They have lost completely.

Kartikeya Mahadevia: But in the new generation we think our children are more interested in religion or the bhakti than the parents. That is a new development. People who are, oh, say 25 or 15, they are not. But the children who are below ten or... [break]

Prabhupāda: ...parents should encourage. They have no interest even.

Kartikeya Mahadevia: At the school level, something can be done. Suppose we...

Prabhupāda: The authorities will not allow. School authorities, if you say that you want hold [indistinct], they will not. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ [SB 1.1.10]. This is Kali-yuga. All bad. And even one is interested, he is interested in something bogus. Sumanda-matayaḥ. They have manufactured a style of religious principle. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyāḥ. And all unfortunate.

Kartikeya Mahadevia: Yesterday I met one Life Member who belongs to a very reputed family in Bombay who has donated about fifteen acres of land to Swami Cinmayananda on the Vihar Lake side. Now he has become our patron member yesterday.

Prabhupāda: Vihar Lake?

Kartikeya Mahadevia: Vihar Lake. I think we have gone to see that big temple near Powai. So this family has got about thirty, forty acres of land on the Powai side. Very beautiful site.

Prabhupāda: ...that to know God there is no necessity of education. [break]

Kartikeya Mahadevia: No, he has got nothing. He cannot tell. Any children ask "What is this?" he will not be able to tell because he's not reading anything.

Prabhupāda: So you don't train, how they will learn?

Kartikeya Mahadevia: No, he himself is not trained, so he cannot give any answer to the children. So I told him, "At least you get their ISKCON books. You can read now before the children can read." So he immediately signed up. He immediately paid 2222 rupees by check, and he agreed, "I'll read Bhagavad-gītā and everything."

Prabhupāda: We don't require much money also. We require men first. Money will come. Money is coming. I started this business forty...

Kartikeya Mahadevia: Forty rupees.

Prabhupāda: So there is no scarcity of money. Now our daily collection is six lakhs of rupees throughout the whole world.

Kartikeya Mahadevia: Per day.

Prabhupāda: Per day. So there is no scarcity of money. A business started with forty rupees bringing six lakhs daily, it is not ordinary business.

Kartikeya Mahadevia: No, extraordinary. Most extraordinary. Everybody wondering that only, how it has been done.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is giving. I never thought my books will be sold as much. I never... Neither in the history of human society religious books sell six lakhs of rupees daily.

Kartikeya Mahadevia: It has never happened.

Prabhupāda: And it is selling where? Where they are not Hindus.

Kartikeya Mahadevia: Yes, all Christian countries, so-called; Westernized countries.

Prabhupāda: In the country of Hindus it is selling very less in comparison to what we are selling daily.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's hard to talk[?]. Vṛndāvana also is doing six, seven hundred rupees a day in book sales.

Prabhupāda: Still, six lakhs or six hundred. No, I say this is unique in the history. Now we have got..., we are going to print, next our printing program... Bring it from Harikeśa. I am being surprised. Fifty thousand, one lakh, five hundred thousand each item.

Kartikeya Mahadevia: Each item. In Ahmedabad there is a very religious person who was not becoming Life Member at all. Without seeing the balance sheet and this and that and all those. And I told him, "What do you mean by balance sheet? Only money matters? If ten thousand foreigners are being converted and they are following this religion and this culture, everything, is it not part of the balance sheet? Only rupees and paisas you want to see, then that's a different matter. Here the people are chanting every day sixteen rounds, they have left so many bad vices, they are propagating all over the world." Then he immediately signed up. He has gone to... He might have met you in New York. Chandrakanti Ravaiwala. He was to come on 18th July in New York. He has gone to America to see his son there.

Prabhupāda: In America, in New York, they have got a very...

Kartikeya Mahadevia: Very good temple. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami wrote to me. My friend was also there. Mr. Patetas has met you I think.

Prabhupāda: It is twelve...

Kartikeya Mahadevia: Twelve stories.

Prabhupāda: In the middle of downtown.

Kartikeya Mahadevia: Manhattan.

Prabhupāda: That Empire State Building, it is...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: [reading] "Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, tentative printing schedule = Vyāsa-pūjā..." This is first the title, then the printer and the delivery date. "July = 2,000 copies, very early August. Nectar of Instruction goes to the printer in late July, 100,000 copies to be ready by early September. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, First Canto, Part 2, reprint, goes to the printer in late July = 50,000 copies, ready by September. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Eighth Canto, Part 1, goes to the printer in August = 20,000 copies, ready by late September. Bhagavad-gītā reprint goes to the printer in August = 500,000 copies, ready by late September. Then there's a book by one of Prabhupāda's disciples, Satsvarūpa Goswami, goes to the printer in late August. Kṛṣṇa trilogy paperback goes to the printer early September: 100,000 copies each, and ready by late September. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, First Canto, Part 3, being reprinted, goes to the printer in early September: 50,000 copies, ready by late October. And three catalogues go to the printer early September: 55,000 copies, ready early October. There's another new book by Prabhupāda: Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers, goes to the printer in September: 100,000 copies, ready late October. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Eighth Canto, Part 2, goes to the printer late September: 20,000 copies, ready early November. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Second Canto, Part 2, reprint, goes to the printer late September: 20,000 copies, ready November. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam First Canto, Part 1, reprint, goes to the printer in early September: 50,000 copies, ready in November. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Eighth Canto, Part 3, goes to the printer in late October, ready early December: 20,000 copies. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Second Canto, Part 1, reprint, goes to the printer early November: 50,000 copies, ready early December. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Ninth Canto, Part 1, goes to the printer in late November: 20,000 copies, ready early January. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Ninth Canto, Part 2, goes to the printer early January: 20,000 copies, ready late February. Kṛṣṇa book, hardbound, Volume 1, reprint, goes to the printer early January: 100,000 copies, ready late February. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Ninth Canto, Part 3, goes to the printer early February: 20,000 copies, ready late March. Kṛṣṇa book, hardbound, Volume 2, reprint, goes to the printer in February: 100,000 copies, ready early April. Kṛṣṇa book, Volume 3, reprint, goes to the printer in February: 100,000 copies, ready early April."

Prabhupāda: We are the biggest publisher in the world about religious and philosophical.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This schedule is only till next March.

Prabhupāda: Aiye. [Hindi] She is Gopāla's mother. You can distribute in your hand.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I have shown this schedule to many publishers who print our books. They all say that even big publishers cannot match this schedule. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...for this good land, now it is coming nice.

Kartikeya Mahadevia: What is the amount of money you would like to spend on land? Because we have seen another bungalow, we can talk about it. Very good land is available, 2,400 square yards.

Prabhupāda: Nobody is interested to retire from family life. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. The difficulty is they do not know their own self-interest. Svārtha-gatim. Everyone says, "My self-interest first." But he does not know what is his self-interest. Na te viduḥ. Actually what is the..., because he does not know self. Aiye. [Hindi] Beginning of education in Bhagavad-gītā: self-interest. Kṛṣṇa giving first lesson, aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāms ca [Bg. 2.11] = "You are talking as a very learned man, prajñā-vā, but your action is not like learned." Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. The subject matter, he was lamenting that "If I kill my brothers, my sister-in-laws will become widow and will become prostitute, and varṇa-saṅkara." "You are talking just like learned man, but on the basis of bodily relationship." So this is not the business of paṇḍita. Nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ.

So this is the position. People are unaware of self-interest. Simply on bodily concept of life they are working day and..., whole day and night. He does not know dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. His body will change, and the soul will have to accept another body. He does not know what kind of body he's going to accept. [aside:] Ask him not to talk. This is ignorance. Everywhere, all over the... Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. And there is no other institution, perhaps throughout the whole world, who is teaching about the self-interest. That is a fact. Because they do not know. What they'll teach? They do not know. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām [SB 2.1.2]. This is Śukadeva Gosvāmī's first instruction to Mahārāja Parīkṣit. When he asked, "Now I am on the verge of death. What is my duty? What shall I do? What shall I hear? What shall I...?" So he eulogized him that "You are anxious to hear." Varīyān eṣa te praśnaḥ [SB 2.1.1]. Hmm? [aside:] Find out this verse, Second Canto, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Yaśomatīnandana: "Your question is glorious because it is very beneficial to all kinds of people. To hear the answer to this question is the prime subject matter of hearing, and it is approved by all transcendentalists." Purport = "Even the very question is so nice that it is the best subject matter for hearing. Simply by such questioning and hearing one can achieve the highest perfectional stage of life. Because Lord Kṛṣṇa is the original Supreme Person, any question about Him is original and perfect. Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that the highest perfection of life is to achieve the transcendental loving service of Kṛṣṇa. Because questions and answers about Kṛṣṇa elevate one to the transcendental position, the questions of Mahārāja Parīkṣit about Kṛṣṇa philosophy are greatly glorified. Mahārāja Parīkṣit wanted to absorb his mind completely in Kṛṣṇa, and such absorption can be effected simply by hearing about the uncommon activities of Kṛṣṇa. For instance, in the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated that simply by understanding the transcendental nature of Lord Kṛṣṇa's appearance, disappearance and activities, one can immediately return back to home, back to Godhead."

Prabhupāda: They do not know what is back to home, back to Godhead. Home is here in India, and again back to Godhead? And somebody say, "Here is America. It is my home." And when you say that he'll be kicked out after some years, then home finished. They are satisfied, that home finished, that's all. In such ignorance they are living. And for this home they are busy. Gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām [SB 2.1.2]. Gṛhamedhī, attached to this home, from which he'll be kicked out. Kṛṣṇa says, "I'll take it out, everything." Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham [Bg. 10.34]. "I come before you as death and take everything, whatever you have got." That's a fact. Everyone is accumulating, but at the time of death he'll be forced to give it up. He'll be forced to give up the body which he is maintaining so nicely. That he is experiencing. Still, apaśyatām ātma-tattvam. Because he does not know what is self-interest, he remains ignorant and dies. This is going on. And leaders---andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Blind leaders, they are encouraging, "Yes, kick yourself. You live here as nationalist. This is your interest. And fight between one nation to one nation, one man to one man." And they have taken this is value. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām [SB 2.1.2]. Next verse you read.


śrotavyādīni rājendra
nṛṇāṁ santi sahasraśaḥ
apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ
gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām

Translation = "Those persons who are materially engrossed, being blind to the knowledge of ultimate truth, have many things as subject matter for hearing in the human society, O emperor."

Prabhupāda: See newspaper? Hundreds of thousands of news. Here they are ten pages. In foreign countries, such a big bundle. Śrotavyādīni rājendra nṛṇāṁ santi sahasraśaḥ [SB 2.1.2]. Thousands and thousands news. But no news about ātma-tattvam. That is not to be taken. They do not know. So many newspapers. Therefore they are purchasing our books. They are intelligent. They are seeing something new. That is, they are intelligent man. Because they have never seen such books. There is elaborate science of God. One can go back to home, back to Godhead. You can talk with Him, you can eat with Him. These things are surprising.

Kartikeya Mahadevia: First time they are hearing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the cause we are selling six lakhs of rupees' worth books daily. They understand it is not so-called religious sentiment; it is science. Our so-called svāmīs and yogīs, they never tried. They did not know also. Big, big svāmīs, they went there. Instead of teaching them, he was taught how to eat meat. Sannyāsī eating meat. He was convinced, "Yes, why not?" At least, in India still, the sannyāsīs they do not eat meat. Except that rascal missionary. No one. There may be difference of opinion, Māyāvādīs, but their behavior is the same.

Kartikeya Mahadevia: Sadācārī.

Prabhupāda: Sadācāra is there. But these people, asadācārī, and passing as sannyāsī. Cigarette, meat-eating and everything, drinking. We are asking common men to give it up, and they say, "Oh, what is the wrong there?" They do not know what is the wrong there. This time in Iran we initiated some Iranian. Some Afghans also coming.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have Arabic Īśopaniṣad ready for printing that was translated by your Lebanese disciple.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that he has done. He promised our...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Motajī. He told me to give it to him and he'd print it on his press.

Prabhupāda: Give this light. [break]

Kartikeya Mahadevia: Chinese, German, French, Italian, English...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Swedish is coming.

Prabhupāda: Dutch. Dutch.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Italian is at the printer. Italian Gītā.

Devotee: French Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: French Bhāgavatam. No, Dutch Bhāgavatam. Dutch also. No, they have printed. I have seen it.

Devotee: Spanish also.

Prabhupāda: They may read in [indistinct]. And why in India, where there is Bhagavad-gītā? Apart from all other Vedic literatures, set aside, the gist of all Vedic knowledge, Bhagavad-gītā, there is. And still, people are kept into darkness. How much lamentable. Still, big, big leaders, at least, they want to preach Bhagavad-gītā---without Kṛṣṇa. They have set aside lakhs of rupees for preaching Bhagavad-gītā, but condition is if you preach without Kṛṣṇa. Just see. Bhagavad-gītā, in every page it is written śrī-bhagavān uvāca. Not even it is said kṛṣṇaḥ uvāca. Because some rascal may take Kṛṣṇa as ordinary human being, therefore Vyāsadeva has specifically said. People know it, kṛṣṇaḥ uvāca, but he says śrī-bhagavān uvāca. The bhagavān word. People may not mistake that Kṛṣṇa is somebody else. And they want to banish Kṛṣṇa from Bhagavad-gītā. Even Gandhi did it. So you explain Bhagavad-gītā as it is there in Ahmedabad?

Yaśomatīnandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They like it?

Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Many young people are very attracted.

Prabhupāda: Yes, when real thing will be presented, it will act.

Yaśomatīnandana: Many people frankly admit that they had a very vague idea of religion. It is not so...

Prabhupāda: Not many; all of them. They do not know what is religion. Therefore there are so many rascal religionists. And Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam begins, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2] = all cheating type of religions kicked out from here. This is beginning. And Vṛndāvana dāsa Ṭhākura has translated,

pṛthivīte yāra kichu dharma-nāme cale
bhāgavata kahe tāhā paripūrṇa chale

Whatever is going on throughout the whole world as religion, Bhāgavata is condemning them as simply cheating. Very clear translation. Cale and chale. Chale means cheating.

Kartikeya Mahadevia: Chalka-path.[?]

Prabhupāda: Chalka-path. So whatever is going on in the name of religion, simply cheating. Because religion means dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Religion means the laws given by God. That is religion. But they do not know who is God and what is the law. And God is coming personally, giving the laws = sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. They'll not take it. In the absence they'll say, "We have not seen God. We do not know who is God." And when He comes, they don't take. They are misguided by the leaders. Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Take Bhagavad-gītā, but don't touch Kṛṣṇa. Untouchable. Take the egg and cut the throat of the chicken; it is expensive. Take only the hind part; you'll get the egg. And mouth is expensive, cut it. Ardha-kukkuṭī-nyāya [Cc. Ādi 5.176]. Very intelligent, that this part is expensive and this part is productive. Keep this part and cut. So as soon as in Bhagavad-gītā we say you have to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa---no, cut. That part, cut. And Kṛṣṇa said, karmaṇy evādhikāras te, and work like ass day and night. "Ah, yes, we'll do."

Yaśomatīnandana: That is the most favorite slogan of everybody.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they're asses. Asses, they want... Even in Tehran, I saw the ass. This is Indian civilization. Loaded.

Kartikeya Mahadevia: With pots or something.

Prabhupāda: Right. Some tons of things. The ass does not know why he is carrying so much load. Therefore mūḍha. What for he is carrying? What is his profit? He does not know. But he's carrying so much. "I am big industrialist. I have got so much business." What for you are doing industry? That he does not know. Ass. Karmīs are described as asses. They do not know what is the interest.

Indian man (2): How does it matter what people call Kṛṣṇa, whether they call Bhagavān or Viṣṇu or what, Kṛṣṇa? If it is just only one God. We are talking removing Kṛṣṇa from Gītā but putting Bhagavān there instead of Kṛṣṇa. How does it matter?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa said, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. "There is no more superior authority than Me."

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo
mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate
iti matvā bhajante māṁ
budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ
bahūnāṁ janmanām ante
jñānavān māṁ prapadyate

These things are there. Iti te jñānam ākhyātaṁ guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā. Then explain. Vimṛśya, this word is there. Vimṛśyaitad, yathecchasi tathā kuru. Find out this verse, iti. These are strong words. Because we are misled by foolish leaders, we are confused. Otherwise everything's clear.


iti te jñānam ākhyātaṁ
guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā
vimṛśyaitad aśeṣeṇa
yathecchasi tathā kuru

"Thus I have explained to you the most confidential of all knowledge. Deliberate on this fully, and then do what you wish to do."

Prabhupāda: What you want more? It is up to you. He has explained everything---what is karma-yoga, what is jñāna-yoga, what is dhyāna-yoga, what is bhakti-yoga, what is the ultimate goal. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam [Bg. 18.66]. He has explained everything. Now it is up to you to think over it and do whatever you like. There is no force. You are at liberty. Your question has no standing. You have to decide, if you have got intelligence, to take up the instruction of Kṛṣṇa and be happy. It is up to you. What was your question? What was your question?

Indian man (2): What was my question? I said how does it matter what name we give to Kṛṣṇa, whether we call Him by Bhagavān or other names...?

Prabhupāda: "Dog," "cat," whatever you like.

Indian man (2): No. As far as for God.

Prabhupāda: No, no, as you say, "Whatever you like." You can call Him a dog, a cat. You can call.

Indian man (2): The names of Bhagavān only, I said.

Prabhupāda: Do you know Bhagavān's name? You do not know Bhagavān. How do you know Bhagavān's name?

Indian man (2): It is interchangeably used, Kṛṣṇa and Bhagavān.

Prabhupāda: What is interchangeable? Here it says mām ekam. Where is interchangeable? Why you manufacture? Fertile brain. Don't make your brain fertile. That is going on, rascaldom. Interchangeable. Why interchangeable? Mām ekam. Ekam.

Kartikeya Mahadevia: Kṛṣṇa is the only God. That's why there is no other alternative. Kṛṣṇa is the God; there is no alternative.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is... That is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. All incarnation of God is described, and the summary is given at the end that all these names, Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Varāha, and so many, hundreds and thousands, so all of them are Kṛṣṇa's plenary portion or portion of the plenary portion. Ete ca aṁśa-kalāḥ. And this Kṛṣṇa, tu bhagavān, He is the original. Ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. It is clearly stated. And Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8]. There are many incarnation of God---so many incarnations that you cannot count even. Just like it is said in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that like you cannot count the waves of the river, similarly you cannot count how many incarnations are there. But Bhāgavata gives you the information that all these incarnations, innumerable incarnations, they are portions or part of the portions. But kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. And Kṛṣṇa also confirms that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8] = "I am the origin." Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. What is the difficulty?

But unfortunately you have got fertile brain. You manufacture things. And that is your misfortune. It is better to remain a fool before the ācārya. Then he'll make progress. As Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana [Cc. Ādi 7.71] = "My guru saw Me a fool number one, and he has chastised Me." When Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī asked Him that "You are a sannyāsī, You are simply chanting," so He replied like that = guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana. "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a fool number one. Therefore he has said, 'You simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. You rascal, You cannot do anything.' So I am doing like that." He said that. He represented Himself a representative of the fools and rascals. So kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. This is the only business, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then you gradually come to your original sense. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. It is very easy thing. People will not take it. They want to see magic, they want to see jugglery, they want to hear all nonsense. This is the... If you talk nonsense, cheating them, they will like it. Satya bole tomāre lata yuta jagat bihar dana kali-yuga tuk lage anahaspar.[?] Kṛṣṇa is speaking, but... Personally? That is not good. They'll go to some rascal who can talk jugglery and show magic. Who can show greater magic than Kṛṣṇa? Who has done it? A seven-years-old boy lifting the mountain. "That is mythology." When Kṛṣṇa shows something wonderful, that is mythology. Mythology..., Vyāsadeva has written mythology. And big, big ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya and Madhvācārya, big, big, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, they have studied this mythology and given their comments. [break]

Another common sense is that there are hundreds and thousands and millions planets. There is no life---everywhere, rocks and sands---and everything is here? Here there are rocks and sands, and there are living entities, there are forests, there is greenness, everything. Variety. Why other planets without varieties? If somebody has created, why he's so dull that he has created everything here, and everywhere simply rocks and sands? And what business he had to do this? Rocks and sand? How he has misspent his valuable time for creating rocks and sand? And wherefrom the sand came? Scientifically, sand is there where there is sea, because sand is sodium silicate; it is manufactured from salt. So without water there is no question of sand. These things have to be considered. And rock is also combination of sand.

Indian man (2): In today's Times there is a news item. Very light, but it can be giving different sense.[?]

Prabhupāda: What is that news?

Indian man (2): Somebody has given the prediction, I forget his name, but he says that in the next thirty years or so the human beings will discover some things on which gravity does not act.

Prabhupāda: Something?

Yaśomatīnandana: Human beings will discover some things on which the law of gravity does not work.

Prabhupāda: Law of gravity does not work now also. There is no question of this discovery. You take one small needle and you take one big log. The log will float and the needle will go down. The needle is so less weight, but it goes down. And the log is so heavy, it floats. Where is law of gravity?

Indian man (2): But that is, that is only relative. Both are being acted upon...

Prabhupāda: Therefore relative. It is not absolute, law of gravity.

Indian man (2): The thing is, till now we are thinking that light [indistinct] things, and all our thinking was conditioned by that. At least in the scientific context.

Prabhupāda: Scientific context... In Hawaii they cut all the coconuts because they are very scientist---law of gravity. But we don't care for this. We don't care. We are keeping the coconut on our head. We never think of law of gravity, that it will fall down. And those who are very much advanced in law of gravity, they have lost all the beauty of the trees, they have thrown the... They are afraid they will...

Indian man (2): Fall on the head.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They will fall down. This is their gain of life. We have discussed this point. Why the green apple does not fall down? So this is their concoction. And why the other planets do not fall down, with so many rocks?

Kartikeya Mahadevia: Millions of rocks.

Prabhupāda: Millions. They do not fall down. Where is the law of gravity acting? That means..., law means it is made by somebody. And the maker, if He likes, it will act; if He does not like, it will not act. Just like Lord Rāmacandra, all the stones He threw over the sea and they began to float. Not that when He made that bridge with stones, they are solidified. No, they began to float. And all the monkeys went over them. So the lawmaker is Lord Rāmacandra. If He likes, the stone will go down. If He doesn't like, it will float. The lawmaker is fact, not the law. Just like in the state law, today it is law, tomorrow it is no law. It depends on the lawmaker. [break] ...so there is the Govardhana Hill. What law is there?

Indian man (2): Kṛṣṇa's law.

Prabhupāda: No, even these yogīs, they can do that. Aṇimā, laghimā, mahimā, prāpti-siddhi. Aṣṭa-siddhi-yoga. By yogic process you can become so stout and strong that you can take a hill on your... Mahimā. Aiye. You are leaving?

Indian man (2): I may come tomorrow.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā.

Indian man (3): I had written to you, and I think Mr. Saurabha had forwarded my letter to you, to which I got a reply, and I was asked to come and meet you today. I just require to is it the right program of the right place where I can discuss. What I had in mind, or perhaps I should say have in mind, I have about thirty acres of land at Udaipur, in Rajasthan. I was trying to make a campus with studios, laboratories and residential places for these producers, stars, casts and things. When discussing with Mr. Saurabha I was amazed that some spare land which we had thought of utilizing for horticulture, we could better utilize it for cowherds to have, say, about hundred cows. I have been thinking, apart from this cowherd business, I have been thinking about this campus for some time back. And when I met Girirāja and we started getting more close together, association, I thought that why not should we have a temple of Lord Kṛṣṇa as the center from where we start the activities?

Prabhupāda: That's nice. We must have Kṛṣṇa, that's a fact. What is the next proposal? We have got experience. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also introduced this dramatic play, but the play was performed by great devotees. So unless devotees are trained, this play will not be effective.

Indian man (3): Yes, I have discussed that also with Mr. Saurabha. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...devotees who can spare time. First of all, all the devotees, they are also in the training, and if they have to learn another training, it may be very difficult.

Indian man (3): Sir, you would perhaps agree that towards... [break]

Prabhupāda: That we are doing. Just like in New York we have got stage. So we are playing something from Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Bhāgavata, occasionally.

Kartikeya Mahadevia: I saw Rāmāyaṇa-gītā. I saw in New York one month back Rāmāyaṇa-gītā. In the temple I saw the Rāmāyaṇa-gītā. It was really very exciting. My two sons are there in New York, so I took them to the temple. So Your Divine Grace was at that time perhaps busy or something, that I couldn't have the darśana.

Prabhupāda: When I was there you were also there?

Kartikeya Mahadevia: Yes, same day I was leaving for India. So I couldn't have your darśana, so I just got there. Girirāja, he told me... [break]

Prabhupāda: So whatever they can, they... But a film project, it can be done, provided it is done in foreign countries. Here everything is expensive and lacking manpower. [break] To make a film it requires huge amount of money.

Indian man (3): Money, perhaps we would be able to..., that problem we will be able to solve now, because initially for the project, not only making the film, the whole project of the campus, I have got the blueprint with me. When you are little better, I'll show the blueprint and I'll have your blessings that if I am able to achieve it. What I was thinking that a short film, say, about eight to ten thousand feet, which occupies an hour and twenty minutes or so, initially made. And dubbed into as many languages as can be done, because the sound portion is always separate. And as I was discussing to Mr. Saurabha, Girirāja... [break]

Prabhupāda: The life of Kṛṣṇa is known almost everyone. So...

Indian man (3): Yes. And also, sir, there are...

Prabhupāda: What benefit they will get?

Indian man (3): ...numerous pictures also. What we have to educate the people... [break]

Prabhupāda: ...by practice. We are training them to practice how to become devotees. By superficial seeing the activities of Kṛṣṇa, this is not... One has to practice. Just like we are going to start gurukula. Gurukula means practice. Brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dāntaḥ [SB 7.12.1], how to become self-controlled, dānta. That is the... So our mission is to awaken the original consciousness, and that can be done by practice. Without practice, it is not possible. It is not by seeing some picture one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is not possible.

Indian man (3): But, sir, do we not convey to a larger people...

Prabhupāda: That is being done through books.

Indian man (3): But, sir, books are for such people who can read, who can understand.

Prabhupāda: Yes, something can be done by showing the picture, but taking consideration of the labor and money invested in that way, the response will be not satisfactory. It is not possible.

Indian man (3): What I was thinking was that we have a limited...

Prabhupāda: Simply by seeing that Kṛṣṇa is lifting the Govardhana Hill, they'll..., many of them will laugh, that "This is all mythology. A boy is lifting Govardhana Hill." Many of them will laugh instead of taking seriously. Because unless one is devotee, he cannot understand what is Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as he sees the boy Kṛṣṇa is lifting Govardhana Hill---he does not understand what is Kṛṣṇa---he'll laugh.

Indian man (3): That is elsewhere.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere.

Indian man (3): No, sir, here...

Prabhupāda: Here also.

Yaśomatīnandana: Mostly here. [several Indians talking mixture of Hindi and English at once]

Indian man (4): ...the feeling of religiousness is all [indistinct] my wife was [indistinct]. Maybe... [break]

Prabhupāda: ...enter the Jagannātha temple, He immediately fainted. So, "Here is My Lord, Kṛṣṇa." When the artist will see, "What He has seen? An old figure, not very beautiful, and this man has fainted." Actually, there is nothing so extraordinary that one should be fainted, but we see practically that Caitanya Mahāprabhu fainted = "Here is My Lord." It is the question of vision. Premāñjana-cchurita bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. One... [a tik-tik lizard makes his sound] It is also confirmed, just see. One who is trained up to see God, he can see. [Hindi] Premāñjana-cchurita bhakti-vilocanena. Just like sometimes we cannot see properly if there is, what is called...?

Indian man (3): Cataract.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That ointment.

Indian man (3): Kajal.

Prabhupāda: Kajal we say. English, what do you say? [indistinct suggestions of word] No. That is not English word. [indistinct] something. So, bhagavat-prema... Premāñjana-cchurita.

Vasughoṣa: Añjana, salve, salve.

Prabhupāda: There is English proper word.

Vasughoṣa: Salve. "Tinge the eyes with the salve of love."

Prabhupāda: Salve, yes. That is the word, salve. The salve of love. One who has painted the eyes with salve of love, he gets it.

Indian man (3): But, sir, there will only be a few who can reach that stage, but the downtrodden...

Prabhupāda: That's a fact,

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu
kaścid yatati siddhaye
yatatām api siddhānāṁ
kaścid māṁ vetthi tattvataḥ

You cannot make such person by showing film. It is not possible.

Indian man (3): Well, that I agree. It is not possible to make men devotees or religious by showing films. But at least those who cannot read our books, to whom individually we cannot reach in spite of our...

Prabhupāda: But they know; they hear. They hear. There are different processes. They know kṛṣṇa-līlā. Just like in India the Janmāṣṭamī is coming, I think cent percent houses will observe Janmāṣṭamī. There is no doubt about it. Either he's a devotee of Kṛṣṇa or not. Even some Muhammadans are there. I know that.

Indian man (2): Yes, Parsis, Muhammadans, [indistinct]...

Prabhupāda: They observe.

Indian man (2): They observe it.

Prabhupāda: So to some extent they have got some affection for Kṛṣṇa, but not to that extent. They..., there maybe one man may seeing Kṛṣṇa's pastimes...

Yaśomatīnandana: I think generally people are more attracted to our Society by the behavior of devotees rather than philosophy, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's pastimes. Philosophy is there, but generally when they see the devotees, and by association, purification comes. As you say, there are so many books about... If the movie is made, just like our Hare Kṛṣṇa People movie, this is showing the practical example of how one can live Kṛṣṇa consciously and solve all the problems of the day-to-day life. Such a movie can attract people to become devotees.

Indian man (2): For the students it is good idea. For the students.

Yaśomatīnandana: For everyone. I mean...

Prabhupāda: Those who cannot read the book, they are still better. Those who can read the book, they are still more dangerous.

Indian man (3): They will misinterpret the whole thing. Misinterpret it. They will misrepresent, misinterpret. The danger is still more there. It is rather more with the educated people that the danger is there than the uneducated. But to reach the uneducated we have, I was thinking this is a better media. This is one of the medias perhaps---I wouldn't say better---perhaps one of the medias by which we can reach them in a larger crowd.

Guest (2): But not in the way that the films are made.

Indian man (3): No, that is not say. I don't want. I could produce...

Prabhupāda: That Kṛṣṇa consciousness is developed when one practices according to the prescribed method:

tapasā brahmacaryena
śamena ca damena ca
tyāgena satya-śaucābhyāṁ
yamena niyamena vā

[SB 6.1.13]

These are the process, tapasya, brahmacaryena. So it is very difficult for the common man to undergo tapasya. Little tapasya we have introduced = no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. That is also become very difficult nowadays.

Indian man (3): But is it not possible that we go through name of Society for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and then they will be attracted more and more and they will...

Prabhupāda: When you want to attract people, you have to show that you are [indistinct].

Indian man (3): There are good persons who...

Prabhupāda: That good person is very, very rare. I... [break] ...education point of view.

Indian man (3): Yes, sir.

Prabhupāda: Unless one is put into practice, it is not possible. That is Vedic culture. From the beginning of life students were sent to gurukula for practicing how to become brahmacārī. That training is very important. Then they are trained as gṛhastha, then vānaprastha, and ultimately sannyāsa, completely renounced. Immediately, a person cannot be renounced; therefore gradually, step by step. So unless there is proper training... Now just like we are selling millions copies of these books, they are reading, and how many of them coming forward? So it requires training. Training is the essential to make people Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Indian man (3): I would rather request that you direct your efforts... [break]

Prabhupāda: ...guru.

Indian man (3): Yes, sir.

Prabhupāda: If even if one goes in the village without any dress, without any..., if he plays the part of Kṛṣṇa's and somebody plays the part of Rādhārāṇī, thousands of people will come. There is no need of film. Yatra-party.

Indian man (4): Yatra-party, sir, in the films we do those...

Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, that mass of people will come. As soon as they hear that here is some play going on, Kṛṣṇa pastimes, still in India...

Indian man (3): It is there, sir, so what my submission was that what we do as film producers and in this line of business, that we do it more on commercial basis. Gimmicks are there, castings are there, but then it is not so much educative. What your Prabhupāda wants to convey? If, as a member of...

Prabhupāda: Education you cannot give. Education means it is practical practice. But to show something, that you can attract even without film. The yatra-party can do it.

Indian man (3): Yatra-party, sir, here again the problem is in this vast country---and for that purpose if you take the whole world as a place---how many yatra-parties can you...

Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, that even if you attract better crowd, what will be the benefits? Unless..., because unless you come to the point of practicing, there is no profit. Who will be attracted to practice Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Nobody is... We are getting practical experience.

Yaśomatīnandana: In other words, just being attracted to philosophy is not sufficient. There has to be... Let them become a devotee. [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: Now just like we are attempting---not only here, everywhere---we have got nice buildings, nice field, field of activities, [indistinct] and Bombay we have constructed such big, big house, so we are asking, at least those who are learned people, that if they retire, come here and practice Kṛṣṇa consciousness. No. Nobody's prepared to practice. And this is the thing = without practice you cannot realize.

Indian man (3): That is why, sir, we don't going outside.

Prabhupāda: They...

Indian man (3): Whole thing if we make it...

Prabhupāda: Just like... Practice is also not very difficult. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. So if you daily come to the temple, see the Deity, he'll have some impression and he can think of Kṛṣṇa, how He is playing flute, how He is nicely dressed, how Rādhārāṇī is standing by His side. Then man-manā, he can think of Kṛṣṇa very easily. So man-manā bhava mad-bhakto, and as soon as you think of Kṛṣṇa, you become a devotee. Because a businessman will not spare so much time thinking Kṛṣṇa, how He is playing flute. He has no business. Without being bhakta, nobody will be interested to meditate upon Kṛṣṇa, how He's standing, how He's playing flute. This is bhakta's business. So anyone who is planning some trying to think of Kṛṣṇa, that means automatically he becomes bhakta, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto. Mad-yājī: then naturally if he becomes bhakta, naturally, then why not offer to Kṛṣṇa something? Eh? Naturally. He'll bring some fruits, some flower, some grains. Then Kṛṣṇa is accepting them, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. So to think of Kṛṣṇa, to become a devotee and to offer Him something, patraṁ puṣpaṁ, and offer Him obeisances, these things are development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And the result is... [aside:] Find out this verse, man-manā. Mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ [Bg. 18.68], by simply executing these four principles, Kṛṣṇa assures that you will come, asaṁśayaḥ, without any doubt.

Indian man (4): Without saṁśaya.


man-manā bhava mad-bhakto
mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru
mām evaiṣyasi satyaṁ te
pratijāne priyo 'si me

Guests: [indistinct---all talking together]

Indian man (3): ...distorting the life of Kṛṣṇa. Your Divine Grace, the film producers are distorting all our mythological...

Prabhupāda: But as soon as you say "mythology," there is no Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (3): Don't say "mythology." I mean to say, my meaning was that they are distorting all our religious... They are making films, putting something, unusual things and very cheap things. If we can reform them, inform them, and bring this Kṛṣṇa...

Prabhupāda: No, unless they practice, it will not be to the art.

Indian man (3): You can bring the spiritual religion to the art.

Prabhupāda: No, that you can use your art.

Indian man (3): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Just to give some incentive. But the thing is unless we practice...

Indian man (3): That is the most important. Practice is of... That is the essence. Of course, that is the essence. But to bring to the essence something should be to bring people to the right path.

Prabhupāda: It can be a part of the propaganda.

Indian man (3): Yes, because in India even this...

Prabhupāda: But for that part of propaganda, the energy will be required, huge energy. Money, energy. If you can spare money and energy. Just like Kṛṣṇa is lifting the hill---you'll show in the picture. You can inform also about that lifting by talking with him.

Indian man (3): No, that is... No, sir. What my suggestion was that we are conveying whatever is there in Bhagavad-gītā, whatever, whatever one subject we take. While we are discussing the subject... After all, we are also all human beings...

Prabhupāda: I have already said that you can take it as part.

Indian man (3): Same time we give some flashbacks, and in with [indistinct]. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...see the film; don't smoke, no [indistinct].

Indian man (3): No, sir, in the cinema houses they don't smoke.

Prabhupāda: No, that is another thing, but...

Indian man (3): Of course, by force it has been in...

Indian man (2): But even you can request also.

Indian man (3): We can do. I mean that is not a... Stage by stage. That stage can be reached, sir. They will feel that they will be ashamed to smoke when such a spiritual thing is being shown to them.

Indian man (2): Creating an atmosphere.

Indian man (3): Gradually it can... It is not a thing of a day. It will take years to come. We will have to go, and my point was that...

Prabhupāda: But here there is no question of begin. Hare Kṛṣṇa literature...

Indian man (2): In the midst of film you can some Hare Kṛṣṇa [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: Immediately.

Indian man (3): But we are... Suppose I am getting, sir, as you said about money...

Prabhupāda: Begins. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. If there is any other motive, then immediately there is no bhakti.

jñāna-karmādy anāvṛtam
ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-
śīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā

[Brs. 1.1.11]

Maybe little bhakti touch, but uttama-bhakti, the definition is anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. So it is very difficult for the actors and actresses to give up the commercial livelihood. Anyā..., that is anyābhilāṣa, that "By playing like this, I'll be popular, I'll get money." This is anyābhilāṣ. So to make it zero is very difficult. Unless it is zero, there is no bhakti.

Indian man (2): No motivations.

Prabhupāda: Ah. But everything can be dovetailed. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe yukta-vairāgyam ucyate. Just like our Sitarama, she wants to do some display to help Kṛṣṇa movement. That is very good.

Indian man (2): She wanted to make the money.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (2): She wanted to make the money in this country. She would have become the richest artist in this country.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (2): But of course she is dedicated, as you say, without any motivation and even...

Prabhupāda: Money... Money-making isn't bad. If money comes...

Indian man (2): She has not commercialized...

Prabhupāda: No, no, there is no commercialization. Kṛṣṇa says that yad karoṣi yaj-juhoṣi yad aśnāsi yat tapasya kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam [Bg. 9.27]. To earn money is not bad, but if it is given to Kṛṣṇa then it is bhakti.

Indian man (2): That is...?

Prabhupāda: Bhakti.

Indian man (2): Very well, she has done.

Prabhupāda: That is bhakti. Just like Arjuna, he was a soldier, but he fought for Kṛṣṇa. That is a military art. For his personal, he refused = "No, no, I am not going to fight with my relatives." But when he understood that Kṛṣṇa wants it, he did it. So anything, if we dovetail with Kṛṣṇa's service, that becomes bhakti. Just like Kṛṣṇa is saying, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26] = "Anyone who is offering in devotion a little leaf, little flower, little water, I accept." So Kṛṣṇa is not poverty-stricken that He wants from me something, but He wants your bhakti, that you become a devotee, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto. He wants that. So if the poorest man also gives something in bhakti, Kṛṣṇa accepts it. So that does not mean that "I have got money. Kṛṣṇa is satisfied with little flower. So give little flower to Kṛṣṇa and enjoy this money for my sense gratification." [chuckles] That is cheating. That is cheating. Kṛṣṇa says, "Whatever you do," kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam, "give Me that," and that is bhakti. So whatever position we may be in, if our life is dedicated to Kṛṣṇa, that is bhakti. That is bhakti. It doesn't matter what is his status, qualification. Kṛṣṇa is unlimitedly everything. Just like we are spending lakhs and crores in this, for this purpose. They may say that "Kṛṣṇa is satisfied with patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam. Why you are spending so much money?" The idea is that when there is money, if you simply offer Kṛṣṇa patraṁ puṣpaṁ toyaṁ, that is cheating. Kṛṣṇa knows it. If you have got money, then you must spend---a gorgeous temple for Kṛṣṇa. That is proper utilization. Not the money is kept for my separate use, and Kṛṣṇa may be offered a little leaf and water. According to one's position, he must worship Kṛṣṇa.

So Bombay is so rich, therefore you are collecting. Spend for this temple. Spend for this temple. Otherwise it will be spent for other purposes. Money will be spent; it will not stay. Samdimite varuṅkala vinaśiniyate sati[?], money will not stay. At least, "At the time of my death money will remain where it is; I'll have to go on naked[?]" So money, so long is in my hands, let it spend for Kṛṣṇa. That is bhakti. It will be spent. How we are going to separate it? There is no excuse. So long it is in my possession, let it be spent for Kṛṣṇa---that is bhakti. So whatever I know.... We are not of that philosophy, that "Don't touch money." No, not only touch; we can consume any amount of money. Bring it, and we spend for Kṛṣṇa. That is our proposal. We are not that so-called renouncer that as soon as there is money my face becomes deformed, my hands go this way. No, we capture immediately and spend it immediately for Kṛṣṇa. Lakṣmī, Lakṣmī is to be engaged in the service of Nārāyaṇa. Just like Sītā-devi, Lakṣmī, she is meant for serving Nārāyaṇa, Rāmacandra. Rāvaṇa thought that "Take away the Lakṣmī from Rāma." He became vanquished, finished. He could not keep Lakṣmī, but he became vanquished because she [he] wanted to enjoy Lakṣmī without Rāma. But Lakṣmī cannot stay without Rāma, Nārāyaṇa. That is false attempt. So he became vanquished---with money, with family, everything, personal, everything. So if we want to keep Lakṣmī without Nārāyaṇa, then it will not be very good. Lakṣmī keep with Nārāyaṇa, Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa. Then it will be... [end]