Garden Conversation , Tehran , 1976-08-09

Prabhupāda: And mix with mustard oil and this, what is called, eggplant. Eggplant roasted in the fire and put with little mustard oil, salt and chilis, it becomes very tasteful. So puffed rice and that, they take in Bengal. That is tiffin, for breakfast. Formerly they were happy by simply by eating palatable dishes according to...

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Today they have become so rich they cannot eat.

Prabhupāda: That's it. Simply they can eat meat.

[whispered background discussion while Hari-śauri explains to another devotee about using the tape recorder] [break]

Prabhupāda: Drinking is prohibited.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, absolutely not. The modern Muslims drink.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say drinking is prohibited.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Prohibited. Yes. It is not permitted; prohibited.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I say prohibited.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Muslim religion, it seems to me, is closer to Vedic culture than Christian. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...given to the modern scientist one proposal, egg proposal. You explain.

Hari-śauri: That if the scientist are so expert and they should be able to back up their claim of life coming from chemicals, then why can't they produce an egg which will give life? They can take some chemicals and make the white, and take some little coloring to make it yellow inside, and wrap it up in some modern synthetic casing, and then put it in an incubator and let it produce life.

Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? These rascals, it is proposed that life comes from chemicals. So take a small egg and analyze, find out the chemicals, same chemicals combine together, and bring life. Hmm? Why? What is the answer? He's for the modern scientists. [laughter] He represents them.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: And the scientists is going to sit on those eggs?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: And the scientist will sit on the eggs?

Prabhupāda: Scientist may not be... They're putting in the incubator, producing so many chickens. So why the egg is taken from the chicken? Why not manufacture and produce hundreds and thousands of chickens, chemical? First of all, begin with chicken then with other.

Parivrājakācārya: They say they are working on this. They think...

Prabhupāda: Rascal. Working, it is already being done, so what is your credit? We are working. You may work also, but what is your credit? Suppose if you become successful. What is your credit? It is already being done by the chicken. Why should you take the laureate title, Dr. such-and-such. Give it to the chicken. What they can do? Can they produce a seed of this, just like one seed produce so many things? Bījāhaṁ sarva-bhūtānām. Where is your credit? [break] Mines, as soon as it is nationalized, nobody will take. In 1950, twenty-five years, twenty-six years ago, I was in Madras, Gauḍīya Maṭha, and there is a bus stop in front of the temple. So every bus was making some sound, huuuuuung, but when nothing was properly oiled. The machine is going to hell when it is managed by the government. As soon as there is government management, nobody wants.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Impersonalism.

Prabhupāda: Impersonalism. Nobody wants. So long there is proprietorship, the proprietor takes care, that "My machine will go bad if I don't take care." But who cares for that? That showing that so much oil purchased, who is going to check it? People have become dishonest. On account of godlessness, everyone is dishonest. He's dishonest to himself even. Doesn't take care of the body properly. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ [SB 5.18.12]. Therefore you cannot expect good qualities of the human society without injecting God consciousness. [break] ...in the mass of people amongst themselves. Do they fight very much amongst themselves?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Not so much. They are not as peaceful as Indians. They are not as peaceful as Indians. They are not as pious as Indians.

Prabhupāda: They cannot be. In India still you will find hundreds and thousands of men are going to take bath in the Ganges in the morning. They might have only one cloth and one napkin, still, they will take twice bath. With the napkin, they change the cloth and wash it and spread it on the ground. By the time he finishes his bathing, the cloth is dry. That is India's advantage. And he puts some fresh cloth, and the napkin is also dry. And he'll become refreshed. And in his loṭā he'll take some water of the Ganges and he'll go home. In Vṛndāvana you'll find many thousands, in the morning, with loṭā they go out, evacuate somewhere, and then wash hands, mouth, with cloth, taking bathing in the Ganges, er, Yamunā. Now they are polluting the Yamunā water, the government. In Vṛndāvana government is opening oil refinery, and people are being encouraged, "These are new temples." Everywhere people are being degraded. They have no tendency to become purified, God conscious, honest. Because they do not believe in the next birth. This garden belongs to the palace? No.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: It is so-called belongs to the people, to the government. But here, palace has a lot of influence.

Prabhupāda: Yes, the king must have. That is... Clean here.

Hari-śauri: No, they're just looking. Probably the amount of cleaners that's been past, this should be the cleanest spot in the whole park by now.

[Iranian men talking]

Prabhupāda: Pashto language. Pashto.

Devotee: Pashto.

Prabhupāda: This language resembles like that. This Iranian. [break] And they are claiming, "It is ours." Nobody has created anything. God has created for His pleasure. Everything is God's property, and they have made an unfavorable situation, "My property." Now here is a city; it is all right, there is no trouble. But if I say it is my property and you say it is your property, then there is trouble. Then there is immigration department, "Why you are coming here?" Then the dogs barking, yow-yow-yow. This is going on as civilization. First of all, they claim God's property falsely their own, and they create a situation. And for this purpose the whole world is working, how to create a bad situation of proprietorship-right on God's property, that's all.

Nava-yauvana: The statement made the other day by the king that all the forests and natural resources were made by God. No man can make these things. So therefore...

Prabhupāda: The king?

Nava-yauvana: The king said that.

Prabhupāda: But that's a fact.

Nava-yauvana: But his conclusion was not correct. He said therefore these things are owned by the government, which represents the people. He didn't understand.

Prabhupāda: It belongs to God. If this is accepted, and God... And everyone is God's son. Therefore as the son can enjoy the father's property, they can enjoy. But they cannot claim proprietorship. And directed by the father, one can enjoy the father's property, but he cannot claim that it is his property. This is the correct position. And the king is supposed to be representative of God to see that things are rightly going on, that's all. Nobody's unnecessarily claiming proprietorship. He should remind that "It is God's property. You can utilize it as far as you need; you don't take more. Whatever you need, you take, but you cannot take more." Like the birds and beasts, they are living. They do not make stock. They need to eat something, they'll eat some fruit, then they will go away. When they are hungry they will go another tree. They never claim that "This is my tree. This is my fruit." This is natural. If you put a bag of rice here, the birds will come, they will eat some grains and go away. But a man, he'll go and try to stock something, and he will take more.

Hari-śauri: But they say that that's intelligence, to make preparation for the future.

Prabhupāda: Yes, to steal God's property is certainly intelligence. Very good intelligence. They must suffer. Must be punished. For this intelligence they must be punished. [men talking in background] So if they want to hear, these men...?

Hari-śauri: Their idea is that God may have made everything, but now it's for us to divide up and enjoy between us.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Hari-śauri: God may have made everything, but now..., He has no connection with it now.

Prabhupāda: Why? He has made and He has no connection? What is this rascal theory? He has made everything and He has no connection.

Hari-śauri: No, He gives up the connection.

Prabhupāda: Why He gives up? He has made for His enjoyment. Why should He give up?

Hari-śauri: They say that He's made for our enjoyment, and it's for us to divide and enjoy.

Prabhupāda: No. Therefore you are rascal. Everything is done by somebody. Suppose if you organize one business, that is for your enjoyment. If God has created anything, that is for His enjoyment. But you are sons of God, you can enjoy the property of the father as far as you require. Not more than; you cannot take more than that. Then other sons will claim and there will be fight. You live. You are son of God, you live at the expense of God. God has sufficient supply. But don't try to take more and stock. That is folly. You eat; you live very nicely. There is no prohibition. But you cannot take more than what you require. This is Bhāgavata communism. If you take more, you'll be punished. [break] ...our philosophy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā [Īśo mantra 1]. The Indians are trained up like that. He is happy in whatever condition of life he is placed. He doesn't protest. Any Indian villager, he'll say, "God has given me this position, that's all right." Therefore the modern man is complaining that in India, this God consciousness has made them lethargetic. They do not do... They believe on the destiny only. Actually they do. Actually they do. Therefore from the very beginning you'll find so nice philosophy, literature, but you won't find the modernized economic development---big, big house, big, big road, no. There was no such attempt.

Hari-śauri: They're not interested in increasing the unnecessary items.

Prabhupāda: That's it. Why? If there is already sufficient supply of my necessities of life, why shall I waste my time? They knew how to utilize time.

Nava-yauvana: One argument that people sometimes give when we say that the world was created for His pleasure, they say that God...

Prabhupāda: How shall we go, in the shade? It is sunny...

Hari-śauri: I think the earth is very damp. If you sit on it, it becomes wet.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: You sit on another bench. There's many benches.

Prabhupāda: The park belongs to government of the king. So you can come, sit down here, enjoy. Why should we claim proprietorship? Then there is trouble. Otherwise, it is kept very nicely. You come, sit down, enjoy the atmosphere. Everyone has got the right. But why shall we claim proprietorship unnecessarily and create trouble? Because you are allowed to sit down here, if you say, "From henceforward, I am the proprietor," then others will say, "Then I am the proprietor. Then why you are coming here?" Then there is trouble.

Nava-yauvana: They say that God has no need to enjoy.

Prabhupāda: Beat him with shoes on his face. Because He has created and He has no need to enjoy. Why He has created? He's your father's servant, that He's created for you? He has created for His enjoyment. That is the tendency everywhere. I create something for my enjoyment. But I can allow others to enjoy also with me, that is another thing. How can you say that God has simply created for your enjoyment? What is his claim? Is there any practical example in the world, that somebody creates something for others? Is there any example? Why do you claim in this way, which is unusual? What is the ground of your this rascal philosophy? Wherefrom you get this idea that I create something for somebody else? I create for myself, for my enjoyment. But I can allow you to enjoy with me. That is another thing. A father creates family for his own enjoyment. Wife, children, he wants enjoyment---society, family. Therefore he takes the risk of maintaining so many people. He feels some enjoyment, therefore he takes the risk. Otherwise he has no business. Why should he create unnecessary trouble to maintain a family, maintain wife, children and society? The principle is if you create something, it is created for your personal enjoyment. But I can allow my sons, my wife, my family members to enjoy with me. But the basic principle is for my enjoyment. This is natural. Where do you get this philosophy that...? What you said? That God cannot enjoy.

Nava-yauvana: Yes, He doesn't need to enjoy.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Nava-yauvana: They say because He's not like human being.

Prabhupāda: Because He's not like a human being, therefore He cannot enjoy. There are so many animals, they are not like human beings. Why they enjoy sex? Can you forbid him, that "You are not like human being. You cannot enjoy"? These are nonsense philosophy. Because they do not know what is God, what He is, what is His position, relationship, therefore these nonsense things are said.

Parivrājakācārya: They think that God is their servant.

Prabhupāda: Then there is no more God. God cannot be servant of anyone. God is master. As soon as He becomes servant, He's no more God. Then you are God. Then you do not know what is the meaning of God. Therefore you are rascal. You do not know the meaning of God and you are trying to explain God. Therefore you are a rascal. The difficulty is at the present moment, rascals are leading the human society. No sane man, only rascals. Their philosophy, their science, their politics, their sociology, because they are guided by the rascals, everything is bad.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Nava-yauvana: They are the biggest cheaters, so everyone becomes cheater.

Dayānanda: Shall we go here, Śrīla Prabhupāda? It's very [indistinct] there.

Prabhupāda: Difficulty is there is no education. Mūḍha. There is no education, there is no check, therefore people remain duṣkṛtina, sinful; mūḍha, rascal; lowest of the men, narādhama; and their so-called education has no value, there is no real knowledge. Therefore they are suffering. Why the government keeps police department? To check these sinful activities. But they do not know what is sinful activity. They are allowed to continue sinful activity.

Dayānanda: They judge everything on the basis of what is good for humanity.

Prabhupāda: But they do not know what is good because they are uneducated rascals. What do they know what is good for humanity?

Dayānanda: Whatever gives pleasure to the greatest number of people.

Prabhupāda: Pleasure... So that is child. Even a child also feels pleasure with something. But it is the duty of the parent to train him to the right point of pleasure. The child takes pleasure playing the whole day. But the father does not allow him. If you leave..., let the child seeks his own pleasure, then you are spoiling him. Then there is no need of becoming your father, guardian. Let him be spoiled by his whimsical pleasure. There is no need of training, schooling, colleges. There is no need. In my childhood I was not willing to go to the schools. My mother forced. By force she used to... My father was lenient, and my mother kept a special man, yamadhara[?], that "Your duty is to take him by force to the school." Yes. My father..., my mother would complain that "Your boy did not go to school." "Oh, he did not go to school?" And I was sure he was very affectionate. "Why?" "No, I shall go tomorrow." Then father, "All right, he will go tomorrow, that's all right." But that tomorrow will never come. This is my practical. My mother forced me. So I thought, "It is pleasure. Why shall I go to school? Let me play whole day." But it is the duty of the guardian to see that this is not pleasure, this is spoiling. A child may think something pleasure, but the guardian should not think that this is pleasure. This is spoiling him. Otherwise why the guardians are required? Why government is needed, why king is needed, why father is needed, why guru is needed? Just to guide. Therefore whatever you think whimsically it is pleasure, the guru, the father, the king, the government, they should guide---"No, it is not pleasure. It is ruining. You should take like this." If the guru and father and the government, they are themselves rascals and fools, how they will guide? And that is the position. General public, they require guidance, but the guides themselves are rascals and fools, cheaters, bluffers. Therefore the condition, social condition... [passerby says something] He said in English?

Dayānanda: No.

Prabhupāda: We shall go now?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Whenever you like.

Hari-śauri: It's half past seven.

Prabhupāda: No, I have no objection. This is nice place.

Nava-yauvana: Because the leaders, they are thieves, they are taking the most, and then they...

Prabhupāda: They have become thieves because their guardians did not care for them. This is going on, paramparā. The paramparā is that God's instructions should be distributed. Evaṁ paramparā. But there is no followers of God's instruction. Therefore the fool's, rascal's paramparā is there. The father is a rogue and the son is rogue, the grandson is a rogue. What is wrong? The paramparā is rogue. And if they follow God's paramparā, then everything is all right. In the beginning, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1] = "I said." That is perfect instruction. God is all-perfect; He is speaking. Now you follow that speaking, then you become perfect. And if you follow Satan, then you become a rogue, thief. The difficulty is they are not following the words of God. And religion means the words of God. It doesn't matter what kind of religion it is. If they actually follow the words of God, they become good. Just like in the Ten Commandments, the good instructions are there. So what is the wrong there? You follow, you become a good man. Similarly, in Koran also, there are good instruction. You follow, you become a good man. After all, religion means to try to understand God. So if you sincerely want to understand God and follow His instruction, any religion, it doesn't matter, you become a good man. Comparatively, according to the time, circumstances may be... Just like..., who told me? You told me that they cut throat of the lamb. There is a... Suppose that the blood goes to the Mecca side, still there is sense of God, a sense of God. Similarly, if they follow strictly the words of God, so everything is all right.

Dayānanda: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, nowadays when people follow this so-called religion, they...

Prabhupāda: No, no, we are talking of religion, not so-called religion. So-called religion is finished. That is not religion.

Dayānanda: Then it is very difficult to find out what is real religion.

Prabhupāda: Why? Why the original, any religious scripture you can see.

Dayānanda: Then they will interpret.

Prabhupāda: No, that is wrong. You cannot interpret. You cannot change by resolution. That is not.

Dayānanda: Then they must have someone to tell them. Then they must have an authority.

Prabhupāda: It is already there, just like in the Bible.

Dayānanda: A spiritual master, I mean. They must have the person.

Prabhupāda: Yes, spiritual master, yes, must be there. That is Vedic injunction. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Spiritual... That I have already explained. Spiritual master, good father, good king, good teachers, they are required. That is defect. There is no guru, there is no spiritual master, there is no nice king, nice father, whole society... [enters car] [break] [end]