Room Conversation , New Māyāpur , 1976-07-31

Bhūgarbha: Many scholars are appreciating more and more. And on the University of Edmonton, in Alberta, Canada, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he was a linguist, professor of linguistics. He's a very pious man, and he is writing a book with some other professor in the Religion department on the comparative study of bhakti in the Indian tradition and the Hebrew tradition. And he's using your books as his only source for the Indian tradition. So he ordered not only one set of all the books, but two sets of all your books. Three sets actually. He ordered one set of Bhāgavatams for his own personal library, then he ordered two sets for the University library---one for the reference section and one for the general section. So he ordered three sets. And when his book comes out, in the back they have a bibliography section, references, and he will give reference to all your books. He was wondering... He's writing this book about bhakti, and he said, "What is a good definition of bhakti for the Indian tradition?" So I showed him Nectar of Devotion, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam [Brs. 1.1.11]. He said that is very good, and he wrote it down and put it in his book.

Prabhupāda: Till now, they took bhakti as a matter of sentiment. Religious science they did not know, all over the world.

Bhūgarbha: He said he's trying to show that by studying bhakti in Indian tradition and also in Hebrew tradition, he's...

Prabhupāda: Bhakti is not achieved by studying. Bhakti stage is achieved by practice. That is the special significance of our institution, that we are engaging our men in practicing. Therefore they are getting knowledge---not by reading.

Bhūgarbha: He was saying there are certain social and economic conditions that need to be present before bhakti can come about.

Prabhupāda: Bhakti can solve everything---social, economical, cultural, religious, everything. [coughing heavily] So Dr. Joseph saw all my books?

Bhūgarbha: Every one he saw. We showed him some... He was very happy to see the Caitanya-caritāmṛta.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I offered him the post of editing.

Bhūgarbha: Now he's sorry. Now he's simply sitting in debt. [means = he feels he can't repay his debt to you]

Prabhupāda: But he did not say no. He wanted to do conveniently. Then I thought, it will not be... [coughs] "When he will return, he'll do it." That is not possible.

Bhūgarbha: He gave me some of his books that he wrote. He gave me some to read. And actually the English in your books is much better than his books, so better he's not editing. It's coming out better.

Prabhupāda: No, he's not a good English scholar.

Bhūgarbha: Actually, he speaks perfect French also. And he got his Ph.D. from the University of Paris.

Prabhupāda: Paris or Dutch as well.

Bhūgarbha: He's been every place. He went to..., in Paris he got in the Sorbonne, and also in Pondicherry they have one French Institute, and there he got his Ph.D. And also in Holland there is one very important man. So by his letters we can..., many people will take our books.

Prabhupāda: No, he's undoubtedly very great Sanskrit scholar. He had written some book how to make the sacred thread, like that. How many knots should be there, how many... [laughter] Smārta brāhmaṇa.

Bhūgarbha: Now he's written another book to show how his life is changing. His latest book was about the five chapters of the Dasama-skanda, which is the rasa-līlā. That is his book now.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Bhūgarbha: So he's changing smārta, now he's turning different.

Prabhupāda: No, he has no training in bhakti.

Bhūgarbha: He said one nice thing. He said that without Jīva Gosvāmī's Ṣaṭ-sandarbhas there's no question of understanding Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Bhūgarbha: He made that statement.

Prabhupāda: [coughing] I met him when he was in Delhi once.

Bhūgarbha: We were very inspired, in Delhi, that almost every college we went to, they already had your three books, and the librarians, they would remember. We would ask them, "When did you get these books?" They'd think, "Well, about ten, twelve years ago, some sannyāsī came. We purchased."

Prabhupāda: So they remembered.

Bhūgarbha: They were [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: So now they took others?

Bhūgarbha: Now... We said that "You've begun; this is only the beginning. You cannot have incomplete set." They said, "Yes, we cannot have incomplete," so they took the rest. And also that man, that Shastri, the Ministry of Education? That man Mr. Shastri, in the Ministry of Education, the Rātrī of Sanskrit-samsad, he bought fifty copies?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Bhūgarbha: He's also, I think, taken fifty standing orders now to complete wherever he is.

Prabhupāda: He is still there?

Bhūgarbha: No, he has shifted now. He's in Darbhanga. But his successor, he's taken. We just made copy, it is printed in your Bhāgavatam. So he made true copy on some paper, and he has two copies of the last order, and this is the balance of his subscription, so now he should take.

Prabhupāda: That is Education Ministry.

Bhūgarbha: They're only giving the Sanskrit.

Prabhupāda: They can take at least fifty copies of each.

Bhūgarbha: Yes. So he's doing that now.

Prabhupāda: They gave me order, I dispatched by post, and if the acknowledgement received, I submitted my bill, they paid.

Bhūgarbha: We're going to find the list of which universities you sent to, because we only found..., not that many.

Prabhupāda: That will be a waste of time. [laughter] So many things I did not keep record.

Bhūgarbha: Even in Poona, they had, the Deccan College in Poona. They also had. We sent to them also. They also ordered balance.

Prabhupāda: In Bombay also I supplied to so many colleges. And the Public Library.

Bhūgarbha: That Royal Asiatic Society.

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Bhūgarbha: In Bombay they purchase all the books. We had to do a little negotiation with them, but they purchased everything. Then the Calcutta Royal Asiatic Society, they wrote us a letter, they said that "These books are the best," the letter came like that, but that "we have no funds to purchase, so can you please send us free of charge?"

Prabhupāda: They have no funds? Asiatic?

Bhūgarbha: They said like that.

Prabhupāda: Maybe. Nowadays people are not interested in cultural societies. They are simply for belly. How to earn money, that's all. Śūdra mentality. The brāhmaṇa mentality is gone. In America also, people are not joining cultural classes of philosophy. Hayagrīva said that he has no job because nobody is taking English as literary study. Nobody's interested. They are taking to technology.

Bhūgarbha: Science.

Prabhupāda: Science means how to make the motorcar wheel, that's all. This is their science.

Bhūgarbha: In America, the professors complain to us. When we try to sell them personal books, they should take books themselves, they say that the salary of a college professor in America is the same as the salary of a waiter in some hotel. That is the respect they are given.

Prabhupāda: Sometimes they are called church mouse. Church mouse. A mouse in the church, what he'll eat? He's in a householder's place, a mouse is there, he can eat something. But church, nobody's eating there. Simply dust, that's all. [laughter] Church mouse. Any new mail?

Harikeśa: Stacks of it. Quite a lot.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Where from?

Harikeśa: Want to go over it now? Shall we go over everything now?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: Jyotirmāyī is outside, and Yogeśvara. We can have them come in?

Prabhupāda: Just fix on the light.

Bhagavān: Is now the right time to ask? She has some questions on gurukula. Is now okay?

Prabhupāda: [indistinct] has not come?

Harikeśa: They haven't come as yet.

Bhagavān: Yogeśvara has just come back from Italy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the news, Italy?

Yogeśvara: They've finished the preparation for the printing of the French edition of Kṛṣṇa book and Śrī Upadeśāmṛta and the Italian Bhagavad-gītā, and they should be ready within the next ten days.

Prabhupāda: French language.

Bhagavān: And Italian Bhagavad-gītā is done.

Prabhupāda: What is the political position of the Fascists and Communists?

Yogeśvara: Very mixed up.

Bhagavān: They are called Christian Democrats. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: They can manufacture so many. Fertile brain in the tract of deserted world. This world is desert, and they have got fertile brain. They call? The fertile land in the deserted land, in the desert, is called oasis. So similarly, these rascals, they have got fertile brain in the world of desert, where there is no happiness. But they have got fertile brain how to manufacture happiness. And māyā kicks on their face and baffles everything. This is the illusion. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā [Bg. 7.14]. They, the world is desert, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15], but they have got fertile brain, how to become happy. And as soon as they make some arrangement, kicks on his face and broken. That's all. What do you think? Is it right? Sometimes you have got fertile brain. [laughter] This fertile brain, he will not accept. He'll be kicked out. Everything will be finished. If you want to be happy, then you have to go back home, back to Kṛṣṇa. That is the only way. Otherwise, your fertile brain will not help. What do you think, Jyotirmāyī? You are intelligent.

Jyotirmāyī: I came to ask you some questions for the gurukula, because now if I don't ask them today...

Prabhupāda: So gurukula means... Find out that chapter, brahmacārī gurukule.

Hari-śauri: 7.10

[background discussion about which verse]

Prabhupāda: Vasan dānto guror hitam. [SB 7.12.1] The beginning of life is how to become cent percent obedient to guru. That is gurukula. That training should be given. The whole process is that our life will be successful when we strictly follow guru and Kṛṣṇa. Guru means Kṛṣṇa; Kṛṣṇa means guru. Not Māyāvāda, but guru means one who follows Kṛṣṇa, he is guru. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ. So guru is directly God, sākṣād-hari. Sākṣād means "directly." So sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas, in every śāstra it is said the guru is God, Kṛṣṇa. So it is stated in the śāstra and it is accepted by authorities. Not that it is simply stated. Samasta-śāstrair, ukta. You understand little Sanskrit?

Jyotirmāyī: Some verses from Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Ukta, ukta means "said." And sadbhiḥ, "by great personalities." Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas, tathā, and "accordingly"---tathā means "accordingly"---bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ, those who are actually in transcendental platform, they should accept it. So why? Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva... It does not mean Māyāvādī, that he has become God. But kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya, he is the most confidential servant. He's therefore servant-God. He's God---servant-God. God is master-God. Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. So why he has become priya? That is, Kṛṣṇa says personally, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ [Bg. 18.69] = nobody is dearer than him in the whole world. Why? Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidā... [Bg. 18.68], "who preaches this gospel of Bhagavad-gītā amongst My devotees." So the guru has got two business = he has to make devotee and teach them the principles of Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore he's so dear. Not that he has become God, not Māyāvādī philosophy. He's living entity, but because he acts very confidentially on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, therefore he's as good as God. This is the process[?]. Not the Māyāvādī philosophy, that guru has become God. Guru is God, not become. He's servant-God. And Kṛṣṇa is master-God. So the success is that both the Gods, when one is accepted by both the Gods, then his life is success. Guru-kṛṣṇa kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Therefore one has to fix his faith staunchly in the bona fide guru. So if one has got bona fide guru, and if he follows that bona fide guru, then his life is success. This is the process. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair. So gurukula means to teach how to become very, very faithful, cent percent faithful, to the bona fide guru. That is gurukula. So you have to teach like that---by behavior, by life, by action. That is gurukula. This sum and substance of... Brahmacārī gurukule vasan dānto guror hitam. Where is that?

Harikeśa: We don't have the book.

Prabhupāda: What you have got? Simply your face, that's all. I'll have to see your face. Why this book is not there?

Hari-śauri: It's 7.3. There was only your copies are available at the moment, and we gave it to George Harrison.

Prabhupāda: And you could not secure any more.

Hari-śauri: The only other copy is in New York.

Prabhupāda: Any other Bhāgavata? Just see. Reference book must be always there. This is the principle of gurukula. Now from this platform, on this understanding, you have to organize.

Jyotirmāyī: You were saying that there are mainly three principles to learn = how to be obedient, how to know, read your books and be self-controlled. So that's what I explained to the teachers, that they should keep that.

Prabhupāda: Guru says there are four principles to be followed. They should be taught in that way. No illicit sex, no gambling, no meat-eating, no intoxication. Guru says that you chant at least sixteen..., that should be taught. Risen early, rise early in the morning, that should be taught. So whatever guru says, you have to teach them perfectly, from childhood; then there will be no deviation when they are grown-up.

Jyotirmāyī: We have them chant now down there. When they chant japa, they chant very enthusiastically. So the teacher himself chants...

Prabhupāda: No, no. According to age, according to... But this is the principle. Gurukula means to learn how to become obedient, self-controlled and act on behalf of guru. This is gurukula. Not to learn grammar very scholarly, grammarian. No, that is not gurukula. There are many thousands scholars---who cares for them? Put in the life. That is important. Our movement has drawn the attention of the world on account of life and the knowledge. They are finding the knowledge in the book and they are finding the practical application in life. That is the important thing. Books there are many, but the books as they are described, they are being followed. That is gurukula. Find out.


brahmacārī guru-kule
vasan dānto guror hitam
ācaran dāsavan nīco
gurau sudṛḍha-sauhṛdaḥ

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Harikeśa: Yes?

Prabhupāda: Guror hitam. So brahmacārī, a brahmacārī should live in the gurukula for the following purposes. The first is that he should be trained up how to control the senses. So that, if you teach any child from the childhood, he'll be trained up. In that case, that female children should be separated.

Jyotirmāyī: I wanted to know also what should we do once they are sixteen, because you said they should be trained in a gurukula until they are sixteen. So once they are sixteen...

Prabhupāda: Once Sarasvatī said that "We have no sex with woman." [laughter] So, innocent, she does not know. So that is, if they are kept separate, they remain innocent. And they are taught that all women should be addressed as mother. Whatever you get it, self-control. And female children should be taught how to become faithful to the husband and to learn the arts of cooking, arts of painting---that should be their subject matter.

Jyotirmāyī: Painting?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sixty-four arts, Rādhārāṇī did. Then She could control Kṛṣṇa.

Jyotirmāyī: So after they have learned all the academics---reading, writing, all these...

Prabhupāda: Academic is ordinary, A-B-C-D, that's all. Not very much. But these arts. They should learn how to cook nicely.

Jyotirmāyī: And what should the boys be taught from ten to sixteen?

Prabhupāda: The principle is same, that when they grow up they learn the śāstra. The more they read, the more they learn. Then they become preacher, teacher. The grown-up children, those who are fifteen, sixteen, they can teach five, six years old.

Jyotirmāyī: Then they can take responsibility themselves.

Prabhupāda: In this way. Elderly student... That is the way of Indian teaching, that there is one teacher, and how he's managing hundreds? That means there are groups. One who is elderly student, he's taking some beginners = "Write a or A like this." That he can teach. What he has learned, he can teach. Similarly, next group, next group. So in this way, one teacher can manage hundreds of students of different categories. This is organization. Not that "Everything I have to do. I cannot teach anybody to do it," that is not intelligence. Intelligence is that employ other to help you. That is intelligence. Not that "Oh, I was busy, I could not do it." Why? What about your assistant? Train assistant so that in your absence things can be done. So the elderly students, they could be... Just Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to do that. When He was sixteen years old He could argue with Keśava Kāśmīrī, because He was practiced.

Jyotirmāyī: And you explained that they should be...

Prabhupāda: In this way, stage after stage, everyone should be expert. Everyone should be teacher and student.

Bhagavān: The boys, they should learn how also to cook?

Prabhupāda: Huh? I never said that. Why you are bringing that question? I said the girls should be. Cooking is not boy's business. But cooking is not very difficult art. If they want, the boys can... [coughs] There are so many. In the Bhakti-rasāmṛta sindhu it is stated how Rādhārāṇī was qualified. So these things should be taught to the girls. If the girls are taught to give service to the husband to the greatest satisfaction, there will be no disagreement.

Yogeśvara: Can the older boys be trained in a particular kind of devotional service? For example, Press work?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Everything is devotional. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam [SB 7.5.23]. There are varieties. We are not Māyāvādī, impersonalists, "Aham brahmasmi---finished, all business." It is not like that. So whatever business is going on in our movement, everything should be taught according to the capacity, boys or girls, it doesn't matter. Some department is suitable for the boys, some department are suitable for the girls. In this way, they should be trained up. But everyone should be trained up to give service. That is gurukula. [coughing] And brahmacārī, this sex impulse should be controlled. That ruins the whole character. Our big, big sannyāsīs are becoming victimized. So that is the danger. Woman is good, man is good; when they combine together, bad. This is the material world. Both of them are good, but when they combine together, they are bad. This is material world. In the spiritual world, there is no such combination of sense gratification. Therefore it is always good. Everyone is part and parcel of God, so they are good. In the spiritual world, they combine together, it becomes bad..., in the material world. In the spiritual world there is no such combination of sense gratification. Therefore they are always good. So you have to train like that. In the spiritual world there are very, very beautiful women, thousand, thousands times. Here, in the heavenly planets, they are calculated the best perfectional body of the woman. But in the spiritual world, still further. But there is no attraction of sex. They are working together, serving together, everything. But the sex attraction, there is no. They are elevated so much in the service of the Lord... Sex attraction is a kind of pleasure.

So there are different types of pleasure. Here, if somebody, good foodstuff is there, and---that is also another sense pleasure---and by the time one beautiful woman is canvassing, "Now, come and let us enjoy," he will give up this good food. He'll go for sex, because he will think this is better than that. So one pleasure is rejected if one is engaged in better pleasure. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 2.59]. So in the spiritual world the service of the Lord is so pleasing that they can neglect this sex pleasure. That is spiritual world. They have no attachment for sex pleasure. Yadāvadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravinde nava-nava-rasa-dhāmānudyata bata nārī-saṅgame bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ suṣṭu [Yāmunācārya]. That is spiritual world. When one spits on the sex pleasure, that means he is elevated in spiritual life. So in the material world that is not possible. But by training, by knowledge, one can be elevated. That is gurukula. So these are the general principles. Now arrange.

Jyotirmāyī: I was thinking about that, that because the girls are trained like brahmacārīnis also in the gurukula, they should be also kept very, very simple, just like the little boys, brahmacārīs.

Prabhupāda: No, our life is simple. We don't want luxury. We don't want luxury, but as we are accustomed in so many ways, as far as possible. But life should be very simple. To increase unnecessary things unnecessarily, that is material life.

Jyotirmāyī: I was thinking in that way---simple clothes, no jewels, just like the boys, simple...

Prabhupāda: Don't say "no." But give a taste for the good, then it will be automatically "no." And if you say "no," then he'll..., they will rebel. The four "no's," that is very difficult. Still they are breaking. No illicit sex, they are breaking. But if they develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this will be automatically "no." So don't bring many "no's," but give them positive life. Then it will be automatically "no." And if you say "no," that will be a struggle. This is the psychology. [coughing] Positive engagement is devotional service. So if they are attracted by devotional service, other things will be automatically "no." Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 2.59]. Just like Ekādaśī day. Ekādaśī day, we observe fasting. And there are many patients in the hospital, they are also fasting, but there is no "No." They'll, within heart, "If I get, I shall eat, I shall eat." But those who are devotee, they voluntarily "no." The same fasting is going on for the devotees and the hospital patient. And that "no" and this "no," there is difference. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. It is not meant for the mass of people, but at least if we keep a section of people ideal to the human society, they will be guided. At the present moment, there is no ideal section. Everyone is rascal, demons, rogue, everything. There is no ideal character. All politicians, scientists, leaders, they are all drunkards and woman-hunters. So what they can lead? There is no ideal man in the society. The politicians are giving big, big speech in the United Nation. They'll go to the same hotel where another debauchee is dancing and drinking. That's all. That is his character. Is it not? So what he will do? He can give very big speech, that's all. What is his character? There is no ideal character in the present human society. Do they appreciate our these restrictions?

Bhagavān: Our restrictions? Yes, they are impressed. They sometimes write about the gurukula that we are treating roughly the children by making them so austere. But every time they show the picture, the children are always happy.

Prabhupāda: [coughing] They have standardized their happiness on this principle---illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling. That is the standard. And if you deny that, they say, "Oh, it is impossible. This is the primary principles of life." Yes. Such a big man like Ronaldsay, he said, "Oh, it is impossible." He was a big man, philosopher, very nice gentleman; still he said, "Oh, it is impossible."

Bhagavān: [to Jyotirmāyī] You have any...

Jyotirmāyī: Yes. You were saying that the children should learn these three, geography and these things, and I wanted to know if they should also learn what they call biology, that is how the body is working, what are the bones and blood and...

Prabhupāda: What is the use? What is the use?

Jyotirmāyī: Just to have some general knowledge...

Prabhupāda: Simply waste of time. Simply waste of time.

Jyotirmāyī: Even the basic of this?

Prabhupāda: What is the basic? What you will know by that? Biology is going on, you study or not study. You are eating, it is transforming into blood, everyone knows. And how he's transforming into blood, what is the use?

Jyotirmāyī: You were saying they should learn geography and history, just for general knowledge.

Prabhupāda: That is because you have to go from America to India. You must know. [laughter] You have to calculate "Two plus two equal to four," a little mathematics. But this biology and this "logy," they are useless. There is no necessity. What you'll gain by understanding biology? Even one who knows biology, the medical man, he gives a tablet, "Perhaps it may help you." "Perhaps." He's not sure. So what is the use? First of all he'll take one ounce blood from you, and they send, this station, that station, now making a chart, then he'll give a tablet, "Perhaps it may help you." And this is going on. Even the biggest pathologist, medical man, cannot guarantee that whatever medicine he is giving is... [break] We are not independent.

Yogeśvara: Some group doctors? Some portion of the devotees, medical knowledge?

Prabhupāda: There is no harm. But when medical men are available by paying something, why should you waste your time? There are so many things we purchase, you pay for them. Not that we have to learn everything. So many things we have to do. Does it mean that you have to learn everything?

Hari-śauri: There's lots of doctors, but there's no brāhmaṇas, devotees.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So the principle is, no, don't waste time. If one has already learned medical science, all right, bring him to some service. But not that our men has to go to the medical college to learn medical science. That is not the point.

Jyotirmāyī: So because we're in the country, I was taking the children in the land here and teaching them how to recognize the different plants. Is that useful, or should I not do that?

Prabhupāda: Different plants?

Jyotirmāyī: Plants, yes. Here we have so many different plants growing, some medical plants, some that can be eaten. Is there any use?

Prabhupāda: No. Different plants, that is botanical study; that has also no utilization. But you can teach them, "Just see, this plant is coming from earth. The earth is the mother of this plant." These things you can convince them. Is it not a fact? The grass is coming, the tree is coming, and the animal eating grass. Then the animal is coming. The man is eating food grains, then man is coming. So originally the earth is the mother, feeding everyone. Is there any denial? What do you think? So earth is the mother of all living entities, convince them. So all living entities are children. Mother earth is the mother. The father? Where is father, find out. Everyone has got idea, father, mother and children. Children are there. The mother is there. Where is the father? If somebody says, "I have not seen the father. How can I recognize father?" that does not mean... Because the mother is there, because the children are there, there must be father. If you do not know, try to know it from your mother, from your superior---from Veda-mātā. You have to know from the Vedas.

Bhagavān: So at that young age they can very easily develop faith in Kṛṣṇa and guru.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā.

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya
sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ
tāsāṁ mahad yonir brahma
ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā

That's all. That study will be nice. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ. Just like father gives the seed, similarly, Kṛṣṇa gives the seed. The seed, when pushed into the womb of the mother and properly nourished, a rose plant comes out. This plant comes out. The seed is there. It is very easy. The father injects the seed within the womb of the mother, and the childs come out. Similarly, whatever is coming out from the earth, the seed-giving father is Kṛṣṇa. And when the seed is pushed within the womb of the mother, then the plant is coming, and everything. This nature's law is going on. Where is the necessity of understanding more than this? We understand the mother is pregnant. Now how she has been, how the child is growing, that is not under your control. It is going on. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi [Bg. 3.27], immediately it is in hand of the nature. Even if you study, you cannot understand how things are arranged---the intestine is joined to the navel of the child and the food is supplied, how it is mechanical... Do you know everything? Can anyone do? Can anyone understand? But things are there. That is being done by prakṛtiḥ. Even if you study, you cannot understand. So best thing is to understand that it is being done by nature under the instruction of Supreme Lord. Let us chant Hare Kṛṣṇa instead of studying these... There are many students, many botanists, many... They, vaguely they are studying, and they have no understanding of Kṛṣṇa. They're denying, rather, the father. The child has come into existence without father. This is their knowledge. So instead of becoming such a fool and rascal, it is better not to study.

Jyotirmāyī: I also thought of a way to help the children remember the Kṛṣṇa book stories easier. It was... You started that long time ago with Madhupuri, you asked her to make the Kṛṣṇa book into a poem. That was long time ago in New York. Then she didn't do it...

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa book is not difficult to be understood by...

Jyotirmāyī: I was thinking if we make into poem and put music and they sing it, then they sing it they can remember...

Prabhupāda: That you can do, to make it understandable easily. It is already easy. If you want to make more easy, then do that.

Jyotirmāyī: Okay. You also allowed... You said that some parents can keep their children with them and teach themselves.

Prabhupāda: You follow that, brahmacārī guru-kule vasan, that I've already explained. That should be done. Don't bring any new thing, imported ideas. That will not be helpful. It will be encumbrance. "My experiment with truth"---Gandhi's movement. Truth is truth. "Experiment" means you do not know what is truth. It is a way of life. Everything is stated there; try to train them. Simple thing. We are not going to teach biology or chemistry. They are not going to... Our students are not going to. Our students should be fit for teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. By their character, by their behavior, by their knowledge, that is wanted. Biologists, chemists, physicists and mathematicians there are hundreds and thousands. We are not going to waste our time that gurukula should produce a great grammarian, a great geologist, biologist. Don't want that. There are many other educational institutes. If you can get a good driver of your car, so what is the use of waste your time to learn driving? Is it not? If you have got important business, you can do that. Why should you waste your time to learn driving? Better employ one driver, pay him some fare.

Harikeśa: You once said in Vṛndāvana that the Marwaris, they don't bother going to school because they can make a lot of money by sitting by the phone and just pay a few rupees a day and any educated fool can do the work.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they do that. They are employing in their factories big, big chemist, big, big physist, engineer and so on, but they do not bother. They are paying thirty thousand rupees per month salary, Birla. Expert, imported from foreign countries. But their sons are never troubled. [coughing] They know how to utilize that worker of thirty thousand rupees per month and to earn thirty lakhs from him. Why shall he waste his time? He knows how to..., they earn. They pay a man thirty thousand and through him earn thirty lakhs. Actually, in order to make a balanced society, the varṇāśrama-dharma is very important, cooperation. So these things are meant for the śūdras. Brāhmaṇas are not meant for this.

Yogeśvara: You once told me that a brāhmaṇa must know how to do everything perfectly so that he can teach others.

Prabhupāda: That may be, you may be a teacher, but you'll remain only a worker. That is another thing. Just like Dronācārya, he taught, he remained a teacher. So we can become a teacher of a particular subject matter, but that does not mean you should be worker. Still, there are many professors, they are teacher; they are not worker. But if the teachers are available, why you should become a teacher? Let them teach. We have to save our time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. After all, this, in the modern world they have invented so many varieties of occupations unnecessarily, to develop economic condition. Is it not? But our philosophy is that you cannot develop your economic condition than you are destined to suffer or enjoy. So one should not waste his time for so-called development of economic condition. He should utilize his time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which was not possible in any other form of life. When we had cat's and dog's life, tree's life, we could not do that, development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now we have got human form of life, we should fully utilize it for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why should we waste our time for economic development? Economic development is not possible. Then every work, every city, they are trying to develop this economic condition, but they're simply struggling. Why they word it of "struggle for existence" is there? It is not possible. Why there are varieties of social position? Everyone could come on the same standard. That is not possible. Anywhere you go, the three classes of men---upper class, middle class and lower class---is there. Is there any country where there is no these three classes, only the upper class? Is there any country?

Yogeśvara: No.

Prabhupāda: Then what is the use? [coughing] Anywhere you'll go, you'll find this upper class, [coughing] middle class and lower class. In the beginning, I thought that America, everyone is richer class. So when I came, I saw the three classes are already there. The lower class, although the country has good facilities not to become lower class, still, voluntarily they are hippies, lower class. They are lying on the street. Although he has got very good opportunity to become first class, but he is lying on the street. Why? What is the answer? British Empire, London, the one is lying on the bench. New York, lying on the bench. There is no sufficient clothing. Why? Actually, he can live very comfortably, but why he's living in that condition? What is the answer?

Harikeśa: It's his nature.

Prabhupāda: No, he has to live in that way. That is his destiny. You cannot change it by artificial ways. Even if he has got all the facilities, he will have to live like that. That is nature. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa saṅgo 'sya sad-asad janma yoniṣu [Bg. 13.22]. This is... So therefore there is no use of so-called improvement. And you cannot do it. This is a fact. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayeteta kovido. Find out this verse. Na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ. Your standard of happiness and distress must be there, because you are destined by the laws of nature. You have to suffer although you are born in America. In New York you can get very comfortable life there; still, you have lie down on the bench, "Lie down." Although you are born of a rich man's family, you have to become hippies = "Lie down here." Who can check this? What is that law. Do they know it? But there is a law. There will be a first class, second class, third class, fourth class. You cannot check it. Huh? That New York City, so cared for. Nasty road, streets. And always, every moment---dung-dung-dung-dung-dung-dung-dung-dung, gu-gu-gu-gu-gu-gu-gu---fire. Saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka. Fire is blazing. Despite all arrangement, fire is blazing. How can you stop it? Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura said, saṁsāra-biṣānale, dibaniśi hiya jvale [Hari Hari Biphale 2]. The blazing fire of poison is always going on. Taribāre nā kāinu upāya. And one has to make ways how to get out of this fire. That is intelligence. Read that.


tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido
na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ
tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukhaṁ
kālena sarvatra gabhīra-raṁhasā

"Persons who are actually intelligent and philosophically inclined should endeavor only for that purposeful end which is not obtainable even by wandering from the topmost planet [Brahmaloka] down to the lowest planet [Pātāla]. As far as happiness derived from sense enjoyment is concerned, it can be obtained automatically in course of time, just as in course of time we obtain miseries, even though we do not desire them."

Prabhupāda: This is philosophy. What is the purport?

Harikeśa: "Every man everywhere is trying to obtain the greatest amount of sense enjoyment for various endeavors. Some of them are busy engaged in trade, industry, economic development, political supremacy, etc., and some of them are engaged in fruitive work to become happy in the next life by attaining higher planets. It is said that in the moon the inhabitants are fit for greater sense enjoyment by drinking soma-rasa, and the Pitrloka is obtained by good charitable work. So there are various programs for sense enjoyment, either during this life or in the life after death."

Prabhupāda: Such a pleasing planet, and these rascals say there is no life. The moon is described everywhere, the most pleasing planet. Actually, when there is moon in the sky, how it is pleasing. So that planet is meant for the high-class pious persons, and they get their life for ten thousands of years. They live very comfortably, drink soma-rasa. These are the description we get from śāstra. And these rascals say it is desert. And we have to believe them. And practically we see how pleasing it is. As soon as the moon planet is there, the whole atmosphere becomes pleasing. And it is desert. And we have to believe these rascal scientists and disregard the description of the śāstra. What do you think? Is that very good intelligence?

Devotee: No.

Prabhupāda: We disregard the statement of Vyāsadeva, and we have to accept the statement of a rascal drunkard. [laughter] We are not so unfortunate. So unfortunate, they can believe that. We cannot believe.

Yogeśvara: Now they have published pictures of Mars.

Prabhupāda: Let them do that, befool others. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās [SB 7.5.31]. Because others, they are blind, this blind man, whatever he says, they believe it. They will say, "Perhaps ten millions of years ago there was life, perhaps." These things are going on. But we know every planet is full of living entity. There is regular life and there are streets. The streets are paved with pearls, corals, in Svargaloka. We have got information. And what is their information? Scratching some sand and bring it, that's all. As if sand is not available. But we give information there are planets where the pavements are with pearls. Go and bring some pearls. There is the ocean of milk. Bring some milk from there. And then we shall understand that you are making some research. Simply all over the universe dry sand? And here the population is increasing. Just see. We have to believe all this. Everything is by nature vacant, and all people and animals are here. And we have to believe that. Hmm. Read it. They are exposing more and more about their nonsensical scientific inquiry.

Harikeśa: "Some are trying to reach the moon or other planets by some mechanical arrangement, for they are very anxious to get into such planets without doing good work. But it is not to happen. By the law of the Supreme, different places are meant for different grades of living beings according to the work they might have performed. By good work only, as prescribed in the scriptures, can one obtain birth in a good family, opulence, good education and good bodily features. We see also that even in this life one obtains a good education or money or bodily beauty. Similarly, in our next birth we get such desirable positions only by good work. Otherwise it would not so happen that two persons born in the same place at the same time are seen differently placed according to the previous work. But all such material positions are not permanent. The positions in the topmost Brahmaloka and in the lowest Pātāla are also changeable according to our own work. The philosophically inclined person must not be tempted by such changeable positions. He should try to get into the permanent life of bliss and knowledge where he will not be forced to come back again to the miserable material world, either in this or that planet. Miseries and mixed happiness are two features of material life, and they are obtained in Brahmaloka and in other lokas also. They are obtained in the life of the demigods and also in the life of the dogs and hogs. The miseries and mixed happiness of all living beings are only of different degree in quality, but no one is free from the miseries of birth, death, old age and disease. Similarly, everyone has his destined happiness also. No one can get more or less of these things simply by personal endeavors. Even if they are obtained, they can be lost again. One should not, therefore, waste time with these flimsy things, but one should only endeavor to go back to Godhead. That should be the mission of everyone's life."

Prabhupāda: That is our position. We should not waste a single moment for so-called material things, happiness. Best save time and utilize it for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's all right?

Yogeśvara: Any more?

Jyotirmāyī: Yes, and just one more.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Jyotirmāyī: Because you were saying that the parents can keep their children and teach them themselves, like Arundhatī is teaching Aniruddha. So does it mean that the parents can...

Prabhupāda: He complained that "My boy is not being properly..." So I said that "You teach your son."

Jyotirmāyī: And she can keep him and teach him all the time? Until he's older and so on?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes. That is the duty of the father and mother. Along with that, he can teach others also. [coughing] These things are to be organized. But some way or other, our students should be given education and spiritual life, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Individually, collectively, somehow or other. The principle is laid down there, brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dānto guror-hitam. That's the beginning. Everything is there; we have to simply follow it. We haven't got to manufacture anything. That is a waste of time. Whatever is there, you follow. Is that all right?

Devotees: Yes. Thank you. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break]

Yogeśvara: ...hand-loomed silk.

Prabhupāda: Thailand silk. [coughing]

Yogeśvara: Yes. He has invited me to go to Thailand to meet the Prime Minister in October.

Prabhupāda: Oh, if there is interview, you must go.

Yogeśvara: Yes. Perhaps you would like to tell me on what level I should present our movement.

Prabhupāda: On the level of Bhagavad-gītā. God is the supreme controller, and we have to learn how to remain peacefully under the supreme controller. Just like citizens and the government. Good citizenship means one who lives under the control of the government. Similarly, good person means one is God conscious and lives according to the instruction of God. So there is instruction of God, [coughing] we are presenting this all over the world.

Yogeśvara: And they should give us some facilities?

Prabhupāda: Yes. "We want to preach. Here also, if you give us facility, we can preach. That is after your interest."

Yogeśvara: This one gentleman has already offered one house in Bangkok. He's put at our disposal, in the middle of the city, a very beautiful house.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is very nice.

Yogeśvara: But now I'm wondering how should this should be managed, who should take charge of this project.

Prabhupāda: No, we can send some men from India. Bangkok is not far away from India. If we get a living place, then we can find out. When there are rice thrown, the crows will come. If there is no rice, how the crows will come? This is the philosophy. [laughter] If there is living place, then many crows will come.

Yogeśvara: So we can first go and see the situation and then contact our men in India.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Men will be supplied from India. What is his name? Send him some thanks.

Yogeśvara: Yes, Mr. Boonsoong. I'll give it to you now. Jaya, very nice.

Prabhupāda: He's a Hong Kong man?

Yogeśvara: No, he is from Thailand.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, Bangkok.

Yogeśvara: And he's a multimillionaire. He owns approximately one third of all the land in Thailand.

Prabhupāda: Oh!

Hari-śauri: Very important man.

Yogeśvara: Chairman of many big businesses.

Prabhupāda: You have given books?

Yogeśvara: He has received books.

Prabhupāda: Where you met him?

Yogeśvara: His former secretary is now a devotee in this temple. She is from Thailand. And when he came to visit her in Paris, she introduced me to him, and since then he has spoken about us to his family, to businessmen. Many big people in Thailand.

Hari-śauri: People in Thailand are quite pious.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are Indian culture. Their original culture is Indian. It is called Siam [pronounces like Śyām], Kṛṣṇa's name. And they have got the airplane, Garuda.

Hari-śauri: Yes. Garuda Airlines.

Prabhupāda: So they are devotees originally, all Kṛṣṇa devotees.

Yogeśvara: The king is speaking Sanskrit.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It was known. It has been changed now. Formerly, [coughing] it was known as Syam state, Siam. Syam is the name of Kṛṣṇa. Whole state was named under that Kṛṣṇa. So, and they manufacture very nice idol of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. They're accustomed.

Hari-śauri: They have a very strong Buddhist influence there now.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hari-śauri: Buddhist.

Prabhupāda: Later on, they became Buddhist, but originally they were Vaiṣṇava.

Yogeśvara: So they will not make some objection if they are thinking we have come to preach Hinduism in a Buddhist country?

Prabhupāda: It is not... Don't establish Deity. Talk on philosophy.

Yogeśvara: "God is the supreme controller."

Prabhupāda: Yes. We accept Lord Buddha as incarnation of God. Show in our books that we have got all respect for Buddha. We do not disrespect Lord Buddha, neither go against him. [coughing] Anyway, if we get one house to live and a supporter, a big supporter, then our position will be secure. And if our cause is honest, then nobody can check.

Yogeśvara: He has said that first I should come and speak to the Prime Minister and then speak at the University, and then see the reaction, and then we can go to see the king and say that this has been the reaction at the universities.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Do it organizedly. They understand French language?

Yogeśvara: Yes, English and French. They are very close to Vietnam. They speak French.

Prabhupāda: Very good. Take this opportunity. [coughing]

Yogeśvara: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [end]