Room Conversation , London , 1976-07-27

Prabhupāda: He is so monied man. He cannot get nice food even, the primary necessities. And getting jaundice.

Hari-śauri: He had jaundice?

Jayatīrtha: Yes, he just recovered from jaundice. Thinks he was poisoned by something he ate. The main reason why he doesn't..., he got jaundice because, he admitted, is that he had Ravi Shankar's brother cooking for him.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayatīrtha: He has one Kumar Shankar, the brother of Ravi Shankar, is cooking for him. So this man is a demon; therefore he is becoming sick.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are all drunkards, all third-class men, fourth-class men, low-class men. In India, this naṭas, they are third class, fourth class. Naṭas means the artist---singer, dancers. They are meant for the fourth-class, fifth-class men. It was never taken by the... They are called, and they will expertly sing, dance, in some festival. The brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, they were not doing. Still in India there is a class, very expert in dancing, singing. Low class. Their hereditary business is like that.

Bhagavān: So you have given everything. You have given all the structure. We have to present it rightly.

Prabhupāda: Even, say, hundred years ago, that Girish Chandra Ghosh, he wanted to introduce theatrical performances, imitating the European theatrical performances, man and woman taking part. So he wanted to invite woman artist. Not a single woman joined. Who will go to public stage to dance, respectable girl? They'll never. That is hundred years. I am speaking, say, about forty years ago. In one of our [indistinct] men, the girl was to be married, and it is the custom in India, the bridegroom's party comes to see the girl, whether she is right. Similarly, the girl's party goes to see the... So they came to see one of my friend's daughter. The daughter is very beautiful, rich man's daughter. So one of the bridegroom's party questioned, "You know how to dance?" That was his question to the girl = "You have learned something about dancing and singing?" So she was my friend's daughter, my, that friend, Mukunda Mullik. His elder brother was there. He became very angry, that "This rascal is asking our daughter whether she knows dancing and singing." She took it as... He took it as insult, that "Respectable family, daughter should learn how to dance, how to sing?" So immediately he protested, "No, no, no, she does not know how to dance, how to sing. She's not meant for that purpose. We like, of course, a young girl dancing and singing, but we cannot teach our family members. We spend for that outside. You cannot expect our Mullik's family daughter dancing and singing. No. He is well, good[?]." Actually that is... Dancing? Singing? What is this nonsense? For a respectable family? It is meant for the low-class professional. Pay them, they will dance. Or go to some prostitute. She will dance. So he said that "We have got some taste for dancing, but not that our family members should do that. We pay for that outside."

So this art... And among the theatrical, Girish Chandra Ghosh could not get a single response from any respectable family. Then he had to seek some young girls from the prostitute class. They became later on famous artists, Kusumkamali Dasi, this Dasi... Nowadays it has become a fashion that aristocratic family should join this cinema and spoil their character. Otherwise it was meant for the..., no respectable man. You find the Bhāgavata description, especially for these professional who would come. They'll take their reward.

Bhagavān: This class is very influential today, this cinema artist, performer. Whenever there's a Presidential race...

Prabhupāda: Just like George. What is his value? He's artist, that's all. From educational point of view, from things view, he does not know anything. But he has got some money on account of his artistic playment[?], and he's big man, that's all. Somehow or other get money, you become a big man. There is no question of culture or anything. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. The money will be the criterion---no family, culture, education. These things will not be taken into account. If you have got money, then you are big man. Never mind what you are. Therefore people are after money. Who is going to be brāhmaṇa? If you become a perfect brāhmaṇa, who will care for you? Nobody is interested to become a brāhmaṇa. "Why we shall become brāhmaṇa, starve? For starvation?" Nowadays in the colleges, they're not interested in art, philosophy, English literature. No, they... Nobody. They go for technical, how they will get more money. They do not want. Some of the doctor, professor, they came to request us to give our student. They are not getting student. And after few years they'll be all dismissed. Who will pay them? Hayagrīva told me, he's not getting any job. There is another, Mr...., Dr. Henderson. He's also not getting any job. He's selling incense. And Bon Mahārāja, his institute is suffering from the very beginning till now, simply begging, begging and paying, paying the professor. No student. First of all he started Vaiṣṇava philosophy, so doctorate, Ph.D. So especially in India, who is going to take Ph.D. in Vaiṣṇava philosophy and starve? So this is failure. It is already failure, but he is persistent.

Bhagavān: Therefore people are very surprised we are not starving.

Prabhupāda: Why we shall starve?

Bhagavān: We are not starving.

Prabhupāda: We are, rather, inviting, "Come here, live comfortably, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Then what is the difference between Kṛṣṇa's state and ordinary state? When I see so many young boys are taking prasādam, I become so happy that they are having prasādam and good chance for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. They are living in the best house.

Bhagavān: Even the churches, they are not feeding people like this. They have so much money.

Prabhupāda: They do not know whose money, how to spend it. Bokā-loka.

[pause]

Prabhupāda: In the evening I took that watermelon juice? That created havoc whole night. I think so. So for breakfast you can prepare that soup, the little. Just put vegetable soup.

Jayatīrtha: Vegetable soup.

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Hari-śauri: Nothing else? No fruits?

Prabhupāda: You can keep; if I like I can take. But the vegetable soup.

Hari-śauri: What time would you like breakfast?

Prabhupāda: Half past seven, eight. We are publishing one book, Dialectic Spiritualism. What is that?

Jayatīrtha: Harikeśa Mahārāja's book.

Bhagavān: No, no. Another one Prabhupāda's spoke.

Hari-śauri: The philosophy book.

Jayatīrtha: Oh, the philosophy book will be called Dialectic Spiritualism? Ah, very good title.

Hari-śauri: A Vedic View of Western Philosophy.

Jayatīrtha: Very good title.

Prabhupāda: That's a fact. If one actually interested in real philosophy, they must come to spiritualism. Ātma-tattvam. That is ātma-tattvam. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam [SB 5.5.5]. So long they do not come to this platform of understanding ātma-tattva, whatever rascal they are doing, simply defeat, that's all. Parābhava. Simply frustration and defeat. This very word, parābhava, means defeat. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jātaḥ. Why he's defeated? Abodha-jātaḥ. Because by birth he's a rascal. Abodha-jātaḥ. And this will continue, yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. So long he's not enlightened to inquire about spirit and the science of spirit, he'll remain in that, that, what is called, defeat position or conquered position. So we have to now increase our scope. Everything we have got. And if you don't come to this platform, ātma-tattva, then your all attempt will be defeat. You are already defeated, frustrated. Simply struggling, that's all. Either take the capitalist or Communist, who has conquered? Everyone is defeated. One party may be proud that "We have been victorious." What victory you have got? What is the victory? Not that the Communist countries, they are all happy. This is not the fact. Then where is your victory? Simply beating the drum that they have got victory, victory? "We have gone to moon planet. We have gone to Mars." Cheating innocent public. Is that victory?

[pause]

Prabhupāda: The girls are working that side? No.

Hari-śauri: No, they won't come for another half hour yet.

Jayatīrtha: They can come earlier if you like. They can come any time you like.

Prabhupāda: No. No, I have no objection. What is that? They'll work that side; I'll sit down here.

Jayatīrtha: They should come now. [leaves room]

Prabhupāda: Yes. Our program is solid, but if we have to argue with animals, that is a different thing. Otherwise any human being, they will accept. But the modern civilization means to keep the people in general in animal platform, that's all, and cheat them.

[pause]

Bhagavān: Most of the people who..., they are becoming attracted to this Communist philosophy, they have no idea how to practically apply it. All they are seeing is "It is an opportunity to take from the rich and give me to enjoy." But they are not seeing any scope of community cooperation. This is all impractical. They are seeing, "I will get money from my boss. I will take his wealth and distribute." They are simply materialists.

Prabhupāda: That also "Distribute for me. More share for me." [laughs] Now there is drought; there is no rain. What the capitalists or Communists can do in this connection? If they are able to present any program how to counteract? Then where is your progress? When there is some calamity, you both of you are simply looking[?]. That's all. You cannot do anything. Then where is your progress?

Hari-śauri: The reason why the Russians were buying wheat from America...

Prabhupāda: Yes?

Hari-śauri: ...was because they had no rain. All their crops failed.

Jayatīrtha: Not only that, people aren't inclined to work very hard. The farmers are not very enthusiastic to work very hard, because they work very hard, but they have to give all the fruit away. So because they are karmīs, they want the fruit. The state is taking the fruit; therefore they don't want to work.

Prabhupāda: Why they shall work?

Jayatīrtha: They have no incentive.

Prabhupāda: "I'll work and you'll enjoy. Why shall we work?" That is natural tendency. This can be possible only for Kṛṣṇa. "I'll work; Kṛṣṇa will enjoy." That's all. That is only possible in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Jayatīrtha: That's a fact. Therefore it's the only practical communism.

Prabhupāda: "I shall fight, give my all best, and Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied." [indistinct] Arjuna for his personal, he did not..., decline, but when he saw that "Kṛṣṇa wants it? All right." That is kṛṣṇa-prema. "Never mind I shall be aggrieved by killing my kinsmen, but Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied. That's all right." This is Kṛṣṇa philosophy. We cannot find this philosophy in the material world, that "I shall work, and so many will be satisfied." That is not possible. "If I work, I must be satisfied." So these Communists, they will work according to... Everyone will show that "I have no capacity." So the production will reduce, and they'll have to beg.

Jayatīrtha: They've had to introduce capitalistic-type incentives in many of the Communist countries in order to induce the people to work.

Prabhupāda: Not capitalistic. This is Kṛṣṇa conscious. They'll have to learn how to love Kṛṣṇa, and for Kṛṣṇa, they are prepared to do anything. That is philosophy. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. That is first class, Vaiṣṇava. Yenātmā suprasīdati. Who knows this verse? Find out this verse.

Bhagavān: Sa vai puṁsām paro dharmo? First Canto. "The first-class occupation is that which brings love of God. When uninterested, unmotivated, it brings satisfaction."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Who will understand this philosophy?

Harikeśa:

"The supreme occupation, dharma, for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted in order to completely satisfy the self."

Prabhupāda: So the Communist teaching that "You love Lenin," and the capitalist teaching that "You love Washington," so nobody's satisfied. Unless the love comes to Kṛṣṇa, there is no question of satisfied.

Jayatīrtha: There's no reciprocation.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, there must be defect because the love is reposed in some defective or imperfect personality. It may be Lenin or it may be Washington, it doesn't matter. He's imperfect. [bell rings]

Harikeśa: Who's that?

Hari-śauri: They're cleaning.

Harikeśa: By accident they must have pushed it.

Prabhupāda: Love is there. Otherwise why so many people are working? But because it is misplaced, they are not satisfied. Therefore it is stated, yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. Adhokṣaje, this word, is used. God... They may say that "Where is God?" And therefore the word is used, adhokṣaje: "beyond your sense perception." Everything is within sense perception. So therefore this very word is used, that "You cannot see, you cannot perceive, but still you have to love Him." Adhokṣaje. They say, therefore, that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is some ideal, imagination, Kṛṣṇa. They think... They say, "They have an imaginary form of Kṛṣṇa, a stone, and unnecessarily they are wasting their time, loving Kṛṣṇa." What is their theory? You know that?

Harikeśa: Some people think.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are some. They are not all. Even they criticize that "You cannot see Kṛṣṇa," so similar argument can be, "You do not see Lenin. Why you are worshiping?" That's it. "Is Lenin present before you? So why you are worshiping?" You'll see. You have got, in Moscow got, every street corner a big picture.

Harikeśa: They're trying to replace everybody's desire to worship some greater authority.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, but if you or somebody argues, "Where is Lenin? You are... Why you are worshiping? You cannot see Lenin." Because they say, "Where is your Kṛṣṇa? You are worshiping a statue," so we can say the same thing, "Where is your Lenin? The statue, it is?" In the airport station, street crossing and everywhere there is picture. And they go to worship Lenin's tomb every day. Many other fools also go there, tourists, that Red Square. They tried in India for Jawaharlal's tomb, for Gandhi's tomb. So in the beginning there was little crowd. Now nobody goes. But Vṛndāvana, Govindajī's temple, Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma temple? Without invitation---crowd. This is culture. [loud chanting begins in background as curtains open in temple room]

Bhagavān: Marx, he has written only little book, and you have written so many books.

Prabhupāda: What does he know, he'll write? What does he know that he will write? He can bluff people for... That's all. Here is Vyāsadeva, vidvān. So,

You have found? Read it.

Harikeśa: "The material miseries of the living entity, which are superfluous to him, can be directly mitigated by the linking process of devotional service. But the mass of people do not know this, and therefore the learned Vyāsadeva compiled this Vedic literature, which is in relation to the Supreme Truth."

Prabhupāda: So here is vidvān, and there is a rascal. He does not know how people will be helped.

[pause]

Prabhupāda: Where you got these beads?

Bhagavān: Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: Purchased?

Bhagavān: Someone gave them as gift, a devotee. Tulasī.

Prabhupāda: In Hawaii there are so many tulasīs, dry wood. We can make those.

[pause]

Bhagavān: In our preaching this is good point, that we do not alienate the Communists and stress on the differences between us and them.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: That can come later.

Prabhupāda: But they see practically that "We are theorizing while they're practically doing." So expand this farming project, self-help and peaceful life for spiritual culture. I saw that Philadelphia farming is better organized than all others.

Jayatīrtha: Yes, in Pennsylvania they have the best farm. It is the best farm. When they bought it, it already had all this equipment and best flat farmland, whereas New Vrindavan, they have such a...

Prabhupāda: Hilly.

Jayatīrtha: Hilly, and the place was originally not very nice. Everything they had to build from scratch.

Hari-śauri: The management in New Vrindavan is a lot more difficult as well, because they've tried to avoid machinery, so the whole concept of farming without any complicated machinery...

Prabhupāda: But they have got so many machine. In New Vrindavan there are so many machinery.

Hari-śauri: Not so much tractors and things, though. They've been trying to concentrate with just oxen and things like that, so it's taken a while to develop the whole concept, whereas in Pennsylvania they're using so many machines.

Prabhupāda: No, we are not [indistinct] various things.

Jayatīrtha: In our Vancouver farm, because we had machinery, we were able to put more land under cultivation in the first year than they had in New Vrindavan after so many years. Seemed very efficient.

Bhagavān: Thing is, we should not become dependent on machine.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: This unemployment is to their discredit. In the karmis' society the unemployment is a great discredit. Now people sitting idle.

Prabhupāda: There will be great catastrophe. The unemployment will increase, and people will be very much dissatisfied, especially the black. They will create havoc. This is artificial. They are increasing the production of tire tube and [indistinct]. Then who will purchase? Nobody lives in tire tube. Therefore unemployment. So therefore reduce production. You cannot go on increasing. You very much trade this tire tube and so many artificial... It is very artificial civilization. [break] Here, so far milk and food grains are concerned, whatever sumptuously you want to eat, eat. Balance you can keep stock. The milk can be converted into ghee, then keep stock, and the grains can be stocked. Whenever you like, you just grind the grains and have to eat, halavā.

Bhagavān: It's very ecstatic.

Prabhupāda: If you have got excess, you can distribute free prasādam: "Come on." You make friends.

Bhagavān: You gave one argument before about this meat-eating. You say, "If you want to eat meat, that is all right. Why you don't wait until the animal dies naturally?"

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: "He's going to die one day. So you wait. Now, in the meantime, you can eat cats and dogs."

Jayatīrtha: While waiting for the cows to die.

Prabhupāda: Yes, cats and dogs they are eating. Yes. Hong Kong, they are eating. Who said that one gentleman came to Hong Kong hotel? Eh?

Hari-śauri: One of the devotees in America. Some man came with his pet dog. So in America they tie up the dogs outside the restaurant, so he did that and he went in. And then he pointed, he showed the doorman his dog, meaning that he was liable to look after him. So after he'd eaten his meal he went out and his dog was gone. So after some inquiry they found out that when he showed the doorman the dog, he misunderstood and thought that he wanted to eat it, that he was bringing his lunch with him, so he took the dog and killed it and served him. He ate his dog.

Jayatīrtha: A local policeman said that in England there are more laws protecting the dogs than there are protecting the children. If you beat your children, there is no problem. If you beat your dog, immediately they'll come arrest you.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Jayatīrtha: Yes.

Bhagavān: I've seen in India, they are bringing foreign dogs.

Jayatīrtha: Even that one gosvāmī in Vṛndāvana, he has got French dogs.

Prabhupāda: That poodles.

Jayatīrtha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He's rascal. "Jagat-guru."

[pause]

Prabhupāda: So you can go.

Jayatīrtha: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. [end]