Conversation and Lecture at the House of Kṣīrodakaśāyī dāsa , London , 1976-07-25

[kīrtana in background]

Jayatīrtha: ...was sitting previously, which was being worshiped, Sanātana was being worshiped at this place. So he sat down because he was thinking that he was good as standing up, same as standing up. So one Vaiṣṇava priest who was taking care of the place, he threw him out. So in the book they complained that the Vaiṣṇavas are considered to be very narrow-minded. [laughter] Now I can understand...

Prabhupāda: Here. He was kicked out.

Jayatīrtha: Yes, the boy threw him out. So they were complaining about this.

Prabhupāda: Just see. How bogus he was. No, when I go to met in [indistinct] that, in the beginning that Prabhavananda, the rascal said that "Ramakrishna was formerly Caitanya Mahāprabhu." He began like that. Then I could understand, "What a rascal he is, and I have to waste my time." So I did not answer anything. I said, "Thank you very much for your meeting," and I went out. This rascal's first proposal was that Ramakrishna Thakur was formerly Caitanya. This is the beginning. He was so rascal.


Prabhupāda: This is framework house. Hare Kṛṣṇa. If some of the svāmīs may have said, they say that "Why you call us rascal and so many things?" So you say that "We are not calling you; Kṛṣṇa says. So we are pushing on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So we have to repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's it. We cannot help it. Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. So you are not Kṛṣṇa conscious; therefore you must be mūḍha."

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: [Hindi]

Jayatīrtha: The best thing Kṛṣṇa has to say about them is that they are abuddhayaḥ. The best thing Kṛṣṇa says about them is they are unintelligent. Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ [Bg. 7.24].

Prabhupāda: Abuddhayaḥ, no intelligence. And similarly, those who are demigod-worshipers, they have been described naṣṭa-buddhayaḥ, "lost of intelligence." These are statements in the Bhagavad-gītā. We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness; we have to say. How we can avoid this? It may be displeasing to you, but we are not sorry. [laughter]

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: We are not sorry.

Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say the other party. But we have to say it.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: No, they all very pleased. They are all very pleased there. I say, when you can get off and Prabhupāda again comes, take prasādam, you can get off on that. They are waiting, but they will not take prasāda unless Prabhupāda's... They are about..., over about two hundred people now. This temple here, all garden full.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So they liked.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Yes, they liked very much.

Prabhupāda: But I spoke very strong thing against Ramakrishna.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Because you spoke the truth, facts.

Prabhupāda: And I challenged that "Any question? Please come."

Indian man: [indistinct] couldn't say anything.

Prabhupāda: Dr. Kapoor says that...

Indian man: O.B.L. Kapoor? Vṛndāvana?

Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana, yes. That "Bhaktivedanta Swami speaks as strongly as Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī was speaking." You know that?

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Oh, yes. I met so many times. I understand also.

Prabhupāda: He said that.

Jayatīrtha: Very nice compliment.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: He also said that "Śrīla Prabhupāda is only one who has really taken the..., his mission seriously."

Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Of course, I don't say myself. That will not look good. But there is other... [devotees having indistinct conversation in background about recording] They, all my Godbrothers, realize it. "But he is the only representative." Somebody, they frankly admit, and somebody do not.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: I met... Some, they are starting coming here to see how the things are. [laughs] They all came. Still they are coming. I think... Somebody said that Bon Mahārāja came.

Prabhupāda: He came here?

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Pardon? Not here. I mean in London. Not here. I never invite anybody, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: No, no. London he came?

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Yes, I heard. I don't know. Somebody was telling. And so many svāmīs, so many, from Vṛndāvana they are coming. Because many, many guests come, Prabhupāda, in the week or during the day. They tell me that "Would you like to go? Some svāmī has come, some..." "Our svāmī is already here." [laughs]

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: They invite some invitation. They have had a big international religious conference in Millford a few weeks back, and all the professors, universities and big, big shark[?]... I have got not got the English...

Prabhupāda: Mūḍhas.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: [laughs] Mūḍhas, yes. So I understand... Some of the friends said it was a big feast and all that, but there was nothing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They never talk about the Lord. They were simply arguing each other, "I think so." [laughs]

Prabhupāda: This is their business.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Big, big professor from the university, from Glasgow, so many professors. Big pamphlet came to me. They all send it... At least, they send it to this place here. I don't know from where they get the address or the name all that, and they send, many, many of these new societies.

Jayatīrtha: You're becoming famous.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: [laughs] No, no. Guru Mahārāja becomes.

Prabhupāda: Keep our standard. Then everyone will give assistance.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: We got many times, many very distinguished... One time that church vicar has come here to see how things are. Chinese people came, Englishmen. One of the lady, not very far from here, she came one morning, said, "My brother is in the hospital, and he is very sick. I know you are a pious people. Can you pray for him?" And "You never... You pray the Lord. You come here. Lord is here." And...

Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Not very far from here. Said, "We hear the noise in the morning, and we have got these feelings that these are very good thing." An English lady.

Jayatīrtha: Oh, this was an English person who came.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: English, yes. She is feeling in the heart.

Prabhupāda: [Hindi]

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: [Hindi] I... We can. By your grace, Kṛṣṇa is here, and we have no intention to come from there. I had intention that let the children go back home. And we fight, all this stuff. I say, "All right, we must start to fully educate him." Full education is that he become advanced in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: So I said, "We haven't got any education." Under the law of this country, if they have to remain here, they have to go up to sixteen years to the school. And if they're qualified, then they...

Prabhupāda: No, education is good, but the association is...

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: No, they don't have any asso... They don't go anywhere. They don't eat anywhere. Even so many invitation comes, either they go to the library or they go to the temple or this place. They have no friends, nothing else. No friends. They don't even take the water anywhere, even to my brother's house. They don't take anywhere.

Prabhupāda: Your brother is also here?

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Yes, he's here now. And he was not very good terms last eight years with me. But when I established this temple, by your grace, Prabhupāda, he has also realized it now that this is good. And my difference with him was that "You should give up this nonsense of drinking this, all these things." That was only..., nothing else, about money or anything. I say, "I cannot eat at your place unless you give up these things." I go there, don't eat anything.

Prabhupāda: Still, he drinks.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Still he drinks. That is the fact. He doesn't eat meat, of course, but he says... He has got business, good business, plenty of money. I am poor materially, but Prabhupāda, my father, spiritual father, is so rich that I am getting money every day. Materially, I am poor, but I am so richer, you are giving so treasure... You see in our library there, we have so many nice library of each and every of your book downstairs, and more we read, we say, well plenty money is coming. [break] ...from the temple. Life Member comes there. We sell the Gujarati magazine. I bought all magazines from Gujarati. Now second issue has not come. The same problem. I don't...

Prabhupāda: This is..., have printed.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: But whatever I brought, it went within two, three weeks.

Prabhupāda: So Yaśomatīnandana?

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: [Hindi] ...that "The next issue is in the press, and I'll soon send." And Gopāla dāsa I also written. Because there are many Gujaratis here, and they are becoming Life Members. They have been very much in the temple. Anybody comes here, we send out to the Manor. I say, "Here Kṛṣṇa is... Here we are. Here we have got everything by Kṛṣṇa's grace, and all the help should go to this center."

Prabhupāda: You are preparing something of bitter melon?

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Bitter? You mean the...

Prabhupāda: Karelās, yes.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Brinjal also. Brinjal. Brinjal I have got. [Hindi with Prabhupāda about translating] [break]

Harikeśa: How much is left?

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: No, no, we just starting it. Prabhupāda approved that, starting, starting with two chapters three times.

Prabhupāda: No, you can do one thing. Part by part, you publish in the Bhāgavata-darśana so that he can..., everyone can see how it is. Then it will be good.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Oh, yes. No, I showed to Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Prabhu when he came here. He also came here when he came to London. He came one day here, so I showed all these and I read little bit.

Prabhupāda: Gopāla Kṛṣṇa himself is not very expert.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: No. So I said that "Śrīla Prabhupāda is coming now," so if you get a chance...

Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say that whatever you have written, let it be published in the...

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Yes, I understand

Prabhupāda: ...so that everyone can see. Then we can understand.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: I see. So I will send to India chapter by chapter, and they can publish...

Prabhupāda: With a letter that "Prabhupāda says like this, that you print in the Hindi edition of Bhāgavata-darśana so that everyone will see, and they will judge how it is done nicely."

Harikeśa: Should I make this?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: I'll send the first chapter complete.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Duplicate it and keep one copy with me here and one copy send off, and they can publish in the Back to Godhead here.

Prabhupāda: The difficulty is that in India, in different parts of India different standard. Somebody says, "This standard is good"; somebody says, "This standard is good."

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Well, we are not worried about the criticism.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: We are not worried about the criticism, anybody say. What you say, we'll take that one line, the guide line.

Prabhupāda: No, I am not authority in Hindi, but this Hindi, different parts of India, a different standard.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Yes, that's true. That is why I had not depend on myself. It going there from the four people different, one after another, and they are qualified Sanskrit and Hindi scholars.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Let it be published.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Completed corrections also. It's not going by...

Prabhupāda: So you can show me some samples which you have completed. Yes, you can show me some.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: [Indian man enters and speaks with Kṣīrodakaśāyī] Śrīla Prabhupāda, devotees are asking can you take prasāda and go to Manor? There's some press coming, but without you they're... Is it all right?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. All right. I will take some time.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Is it all right?

Prabhupāda: I ordered...

Harikeśa: Others, they are also waiting. The Indians, they are...

Prabhupāda: So let them all take. You can also go down. [break] [Prabhupāda moves outside]

Hari-śauri: If you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Harikeśa: Now it's recording. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...word by word.

Kīrtimā[?]: And translate into English.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you have to do it. Give him the book. Simply book. Why you are taking this? Here? Yes. [Kṣīrodakaśāyī speaks in Hindi about "Nature, the Enjoyer and Consciousness" for several minutes]

Indian man (2): [Hindi] Should I read the translation in Hindi?

Prabhupāda: Yes, so that...

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: You can explain this. Yes.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: [Hindi explaining]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi to guests]

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: [Hindi, with some interjections by Prabhupāda]


kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi
sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata
kṣetra-kṣetrajñayor jñānaṁ
yat taj jñānaṁ mataṁ mama

Kṛṣṇa has spoken about the kṣetrajña. Kṣetrajña means the knower of the body, as He has already explained, that "I know that this is my finger." I never say, "I finger." So this body is kṣetrajña, the field of activities, and the soul is the proprietor or worker within the body. That is called kṣetrajña. This is already explained. He tried to explain... Because there are many ladies, so he tried to explain in Hindi. So here in the next verse Kṛṣṇa says, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi: "I am also kṣetrajña. I am also one of the knower of the body." So what is the difference between the one kṣetrajña already explained, the soul, and this kṣetrajña, Kṛṣṇa? What is the difference between the two? That is explained here. Kṛṣṇa says that "I am also kṣetrajña." Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata: "But the distinction is that the individual soul is situated in that particular body, but I am situated in every body, all-pervading." Sometimes they commit mistake that ātmā and Paramātmā, they are the same, but that is not the fact. Here Kṛṣṇa explains very distinctly that "I am also ātmā, but I am Paramātmā." That is the distinction between God and us.

When Arjuna understood Bhagavad-gītā, he addressed Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. Paraṁ brahma. They are anxious to realize Brahman, that I..., ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi does not mean that "I am Paraṁ Brahman." I am individual part and parcel of Brahman. Similarly, ātmā, Paramātmā; īśvara, Parameśvara. We should understand this distinction between ātmā, Paramātmā; Brahman, Para-brahman; īśvara, Parameśvara. So in the Vedic literature it is said, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. Īśvara. Īśvara means controller. Every one of us, we are controller, either I control over my family or in my office or in my country. In this way everyone is a controller. I may be a controller. Not may be; in my limited jurisdiction I am also controller. You are also controller. So I may be a little greater controller, you may be a smaller controller and somebody may be greater than me. So in this way, if you study controllers, different types of controller, you'll find there is junior and senior. The same person is senior controller in the family, but in the office he's a junior controller. The same person is junior and senior at the same time. Somewhere he is junior, somewhere he is senior. In this way, if you study all different types of controller, you'll see there is duality of controls. But when you approach somebody that He's simply controller---He's not controlled by others---that is Kṛṣṇa. This is analytical study of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

So they have studied, all these Vedic scholars, especially Lord Brahmā. This is the statement of Lord Brahmā. Not only Lord Brahmā---Vyāsadeva, Nārada and recently big, big ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, even Śaṅkarācārya, and latest, five hundred years ago, Lord Caitanya---everyone has accepted Kṛṣṇa as the supreme controller. And in the dictionary you'll find what is religion. Religion means to accept a supreme controller. That is religion. So in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also it is said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Dharma means the controlling laws given by God. That is called dharma. So real dharma... From all Vedic scriptures, from the version of all authorities, it is confirmed that īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1] = "Kṛṣṇa is the supreme controller. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means that we are presenting Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Every religion has conception of God, but no religious system in this world has got any clear conception of God. But in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, it is not actually a so-called religious movement, but it is an educational movement to give information to the human society about God, that "Here is God." You are searching after God, and somebody, in disappointment, saying that "God is dead." God is neither dead, nor it is fictitious, but it is factual, and here is this God, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. This is the verdict of the Vedic literature. There may be many other gods. They are expansions of the original Personality of Godhead. If anyone is interested to study the science of God, you'll find it in the Vedic literature, how Kṛṣṇa expands by His plenary portion in different names of God. It is confirmed in the Brahma-saṁhitā, advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam [Bs. 5.33]. That Absolute Truth is advaita, without any duality; acyuta, infallible. Advaita, acyuta, anādi. Everything has got its beginning, anything you... That is our material conception, because we have got the experience---anything we take, it has got a beginning. But Kṛṣṇa, He is described, advaita, acyuta, anādi: "He has no beginning." And in another place it is also said,

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
anādir ādir govindaḥ

[Bs. 5.1]

Kāraṇam is the beginning. So just like my father is the cause of my personality; father, his father is the cause of his personality; in this way you try to find out the cause of the cause. You'll find Kṛṣṇa as the cause of all causes. Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam. Everything must be caused by something. Cause and effect. So the śāstra gives the verdict that Kṛṣṇa is the cause of all causes.

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
anādir ādir govindaḥ

[Bs. 5.1]

So this institution, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we have started. Now we have opened this center. I am very glad that you are coming here, but study the science of Kṛṣṇa. Don't remain blind. The science of Kṛṣṇa means science of God. The human life is meant for understanding the science of God. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is the Vedānta-sūtra. "This human form of life is meant for inquiring about the Absolute Truth---Brahman." That Brahman, Para-brahman, is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, when Arjuna studied Bhagavad-gītā, his conclusion was... He addressed immediately, Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. Bhavān: "Yourself..." So don't waste your time even by a minute. Try to understand the science of Kṛṣṇa. That is the only business. Other business, they are subsidiary. They are not very important business. Why Kṛṣṇa understanding is important business? Because it will give you liberation from this material conditional life. We are foolishly thinking we are very independent, we can do whatever we like. But that is not the fact. The fact is we are completely dependent on the laws of material nature. Even if you defy a little bit, immediately you'll be punished. That is the strict laws of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14].

So we do not understand. There is no education throughout the whole world how we are being controlled by the material nature and why we are being controlled. Why we are put into this position of being controlled? These questions should be raised. That is human life. Otherwise it is animal life. The cats and dogs, they cannot inquire, "Why I am being controlled?" But they agree to be controlled. But human life there is struggle. They are called struggle for existence. They are trying to overcome the control of material nature by so-called scientific method, but that is not the way. You cannot do that. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā. Just like their so-called scientific way they are trying to go to the moon planet or Mars planet. Why they are trying to go? Because they are controlled. They have got their flying machine. They can to go any planet, but they cannot, because they are being controlled. So we should come to our senses that we cannot bring the laws of material nature under our control. We are already under the control of the laws of material nature, and that is our conditional life. Actually, we require freedom from conditional life, but that freedom can be achieved when we surrender to Kṛṣṇa.

daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī
mama māyā duratyayā
mām eva ye prapadyante
māyām etāṁ taranti te

If you actually want to be not to be controlled by the laws of material nature, that you can do. That is possible. And that is possible simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa.

So we are presenting this philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not a manufactured thing. We are quoting from Bhagavad-gītā the same thing. We are not presenting something manufactured. There is no need, because things in perfection is already there in the Bhagavad-gītā. There is no need of manufacturing by fools and rascals. There is no need. Everything is there in perfection. Simply we have to accept it and apply it in practical life. Then our life will be successful. Simply we have to understand it. Kṛṣṇa says that janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ [Bg. 4.9]. Simply to understand Kṛṣṇa as He is... Then jānāti tattvataḥ, anyone who is able to understand Kṛṣṇa in truth, then what is the result? The result is tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9] = "Such person, after giving up this body, he does not accept another material body." At the present moment we are giving up one material body and accepting another material body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. This is our conditional life, but we are kept in such dense darkness of knowledge that we are thinking that "We are free. We can do whatever we like." This is very dangerous civilization---no knowledge of the spiritual life, no knowledge how the soul is transmigrating from one body to another, no knowledge what is the future, no knowledge what is the goal of life. Simply like cats and dogs you dance, eat, drink, be merry and die, that's all. This is not good life. You must be very serious, especially those who are Indians. They should take it very seriously. Because this Kṛṣṇa culture, Bhagavad-gītā, was spoken in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra in India, and if we Indians, we do not take full advantage of this great transcendental knowledge, then you are committing suicide.

So my request is, all the Indians who are here in this foreign country, keep your own original culture. Don't forget. Don't be bewildered. Be in your position. Try to under... It is very easy. Bhagavad-gītā is not at all difficult to understand, and we have tried to explain as easy as possible, not that we have deviated from the original verse, just like others do it. We do not do that; there is no need. That is another blunder. We keep Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and we still try to explain it. So I am very glad that you are all coming regularly, but take it. At least one day, this Sunday, you devote, seriously studying Bhagavad-gītā, and discuss amongst you whenever there is any doubt. There cannot be any doubt. The Bhagavad-gītā verses are so plainly explained, and... Just like here is one verse we are trying to read, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata: "My dear Arjuna..." Arjuna is addressed as Bhārata. Because he belongs to the dynasty of Bharata, sometimes he's addressed as Bhārata. So, very easy, that "I am also one of the souls. There are two souls. One, you are, and another, I am. So what is the difference between you and Me? That you know simply everything---not everything, but to some extent---about your body, but I know everything of everyone's body." That is the difference. I know the pleasure and pains of my body, you know the pleasure and pains of your body, but Kṛṣṇa knows the pleasure and pains of your body and pleasure and pains of my body. That is the difference between Kṛṣṇa and ourself. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. Kṛṣṇa is situated... Kṛṣṇa is not stereotyped in one place. Kṛṣṇa, He is in Goloka Vṛndāvana = goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūtaḥ [Bs. 5.37]. That is Kṛṣṇa. I am sitting here; you are sitting here. I am not in my apartment, but Kṛṣṇa, although He is sitting in this temple, He is present everywhere = aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham [Bs. 5.35].

In this way we have to study Kṛṣṇa very scientifically, and the books are there, and we have tried to explain as far as possible. Take advantage of this institution. Don't waste a moment of your life. Take it very seriously. Āyuṣaḥ kṣaṇa eko 'pi na labhyaḥ svarṇa-koṭibhiḥ [Cāṇakya Paṇḍita]. This seriousness... Especially those who are educated, they should take serious consideration of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Try to understand each and every verse of Bhagavad-gītā, especially, and if possible Bhāgavatam. There are so many books. We have got program to publish at least eighty-four books like this, four hundred pages each. So we have already published fifty-four books. So if you want to understand Kṛṣṇa through science and philosophy, read these books. Otherwise---very easy method---come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. There is no difficulty.

Thank you very much.

Devotees: Jaya! [end]