Evening Darśana , New York , 1976-07-13

Guest (1): ...what thought there is in bringing the temple and the farm closer together as one entity rather than two?

Prabhupāda: Wherever we have got farm, we construct a temple also. [aside:] Just explain.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The... Just like we have so many farming communities. Prabhupāda has mentioned that wherever our farm is... Actually we're not farmers.

Guest (1): No?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda is trying to create a class of intelligent men, brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇa is the head...

Prabhupāda: First class.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...of the human society. So actually it's one body, one entity already, simply that with different activities that we have to perform. The example is given, mukhe bāhūru pāda-ja, that there is the head; there's the arms; there's the belly, the abdomen; and then there is the legs. And all of them are part of the same body. So you might say that the legs are removed from the head, or that the head is removed from the stomach, but actually it's all one body and it works together. But the head gives direction to the whole body how to act properly, so that the benefit is there to be derived. So Śrīla Prabhupāda is creating a class of brāhmaṇas, or heads of human society, who can give direction to the whole sphere of human activities so that they can become successful in human life. So in reality, we're not trying to create farmers, we're trying to create brāhmaṇas. But our farming communities are, so to speak, an example, an ideal example how human society can live = some people in the capacity of preachers, some people in the capacity of farmers, how so many activities can go on---various occupations---but all of them can be God-centered. So in reality, these people, they're farmers, they're out there on their tractor, they can jump off their tractor at any moment and preach the highest philosophy, because actually they're brāhmaṇas. They're intelligent class of men. So it's one entity. The basic principle is that modern society is neglecting to train up, especially young men. You can see that in spite of so many universities throughout the world, these young men are being trained up how to become women-hunters and debauchers, going to the bars, going to the gambling houses, and they are supposed to be educated people. So real education is how to train up one to have ideal character, to become a brāhmaṇa.

Guest (1): Thank you.

Prabhupāda: Our means productive. There must be food production, otherwise how the society will live? That is also a requisition. Good direction required, good government required, good production required, and good worker required. [aside:] You can explain that there is no understanding of spiritual life; that they are missing the opportunity of human life.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This Kṛṣṇa consciousness is a spiritual culture, and basically speaking the human society begins from dharma, or accepting the principle of God. Dharma begins with this acceptance of the principle of God, that human beings, their activities, have to be regulated. Just like in human society there is marriage. This is according to scripture. Every scripture regulates there must be marriage. This is dharma. It regulates certain activities that should be done, certain activities that should not be done. And basically speaking this is the beginning of human civilization; otherwise, we're simply living in a civilization of gross sense gratification which is in reality no different or no better than the society of animals. So from dharma, human society begins, and generally... You can see practically that dharma generally focuses... People are taking that dharma is for the basis of economic development. This is proven practically because in pioneer times in America, for example, people, they were simply going to churches and synagogues and temples and all kinds of things, what have you, and economic development was going on very nicely. In fact, economic development could not have gone on unless there was this principle of religion. People were very, practically speaking... In a pioneer situation people are very barbaric, struggle for existence---you know, you're in the country, there is no road, there's no cities---everyone is very..., simply interested to maintain themselves. But by churches and things of this nature, people saw the need for a civilized give-and-take way of living---economic development. Then gradually the ideas developed further and further. But in modern days we can see that people are having economic development and there's no need for God. They think, at least. In other words, people are no longer attending churches, synagogues, things of this nature, because they are making sufficient money without the need of religion. Therefore the basic principle is being missed, that human life is not simply meant for economic development. Human life---we analyze, we can say that...

Prabhupāda: Human life is meant for making a solution of all material problems.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That they do not know. That point is missing, that there is another life which is eternal, blissful life of knowledge. But they have no idea that we can eternally live without birth, death, old age and disease. There is no information, neither education. But there is a life very... If you get eternal life, then the tribulations of material life no longer are there = birth, death, old age and disease. But they have no idea or information because there is no intelligent man to understand that there is another life which is eternal life of bliss and knowledge. There is no information. That is the defect of the modern civilization. They are living like animals, no intelligence. So actually human life is meant for purifying our existential condition so that we may not be subjected to birth, death, old age and disease. That they are missing. They do not know, neither there is any education nor university. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to educate people on that line. It is not a sentimental religious system, it is an educational system, how one can transfer himself to eternal blissful life. [aside:] Satsvarūpa is there?

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Let him come in. When you have come?

Satsvarūpa: A few hours ago.

Prabhupāda: So, everything's all right?

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Explain to them about eternal life.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Eternal life?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Eternal life is described by Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad-gītā = ajo nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ purāṇaḥ.

na jāyate mriyate vā kadācin
nāyaṁ bhūtvā bhavitā vā na bhūyaḥ
ajo nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ purāṇo
na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre

"Eternal" means without a beginning and without an end. So this body, this human form of life or tree form of life or animal form of life, aquatic form of life, it has a beginning and it has an end. But the person, the soul, has no beginning or end. This is described by Kṛṣṇa, that dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]. We've experienced in our practical lifetime that we were very tiny, youth; we had a small body, child's body = kaumāraṁ yauvanam. Then youthful body; then we're having old man, old woman's body, like this. So practically speaking, this body is constantly changing. Although Kṛṣṇa gives this example because He is trying to explain a very fine point of understanding, namely transmigration of the soul = that in reality the body that we have is changing at every moment, at every instant. But we cannot see that because our consciousness is not so sharp to pick up when there's change of body. But Kṛṣṇa explains, "You can see that you had a small body, now you have a youthful body, now you have an old man's body." Actually there is a continuum of change at every moment. So this is the changing material body, and the mind likewise is changing. But the soul, the living entity, is not changing, and this is experienced practically by the fact that in spite of so many changes of body that we had, we're still the same person. Just like we can remember when we were young children playing in the park or at the streets, and then older, older, older; going to school; older, family life; older, now retired; now like this [indistinct]. So like this the body is changing in so many ways, but still I'm the same person. This can be practically experienced. Everyone has this understanding = different bodies, but you're still the same person.

So this spiritual identity should be the real concern. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This should be the real concern of the human society, not this temporary, changing body. The whole human society is presently geared how to satisfy the demands of this temporary body. So we can see practically that this is fruitless. Ultimately we have to give up this body. Ultimately we have to give up our connection with society, with family, with everything. So everything should have its proper place naturally, but the real focus of human life should be on the soul. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness---not only the soul, but the relationship of the soul with God. So practically speaking, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is a spiritual movement. We're trying to come to the platform, as Prabhupāda has been speaking in class in the mornings about sat-dharma: eternal religion or eternal activity of the soul. Sat means eternal. Here in this material world everything is temporary. By accident you may be born in America or in India or in Japan or in a human form or in a cat form, but it's temporary. But the soul is eternal, and there is also a place = paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ [Bg. 8.20], another place, beyond this material world, which is called the spiritual world. And that place is sanātana, that place is eternal, and Kṛṣṇa also is eternal. So, sat, sat-dharma or eternal occupation of the soul, eternal religion, is that the living entity should be in this place, this eternal place where there's no change of body---that you have to take a body and then give it up, and then according to your work, take another body and then give it up, revolve in the cycle of birth and death unnecessarily. Go to the sanātana atmosphere, and there the sanātana Lord is there, and there the soul is in its natural environment, and the exchange of love that takes place in this spiritual world, this is sat-dharma.

So this temporary world of birth and death, this is asat. Kṛṣṇa says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. It's asat: it's a temporary place. We're taking it to be real just like in a dream we take that the dream is all in all. But by chanting this mantra we will awaken from this maddening materialistic way of life which is simply binding us up more and more to this false conception of attachment for this body. Practically we know that we have to give up this body, but still, because everyone in the material world, Prabhupāda explained this morning, is just like a madman. People are attached... Just like if you are attached to your clothes and you're thinking that if my clothes are finished, I am finished. So this is a mad proposition. You can always get another set of clothes. Similarly, we are different from this body. So to be overly attached with this body or even attached at all is a form of madness. That's a fact. We analyze this soberly.

Guest (1): You mentioned an exchange of love in the spiritual world.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Guest (1): Could you explain that more?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everyone is exchanging love in this world, we see that practically, that husband and wife are exchanging love, children and parents are exchanging love, friend and friend are exchanging love. There are so many different relationships in which we exchange love. Even animals like a dog, a pet dog, is exchanging love. It's been analyzed, experiments have been done that even a plant is more productive when he knows that the person who is taking care of the plant is a friend. They speak about the green thumb. So even plants respond. They are sensitive. In a sense they are also exchanging love in a simple way. So this loving propensity is natural. The difficulty is that due to ignorance, we're exchanging love on the bodily platform, which is asat, temporary. And therefore everyone is frustrated. Everyone is frustrated. It's a false platform of love. So the real platform of love is when we come to the soul platform. Kṛṣṇa speaks about this in the Bhagavad-gītā:

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
na śocati na kāṅkṣati
samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām

That when you come to the soul platform---it's also called brahma-bhūta stage, or platform of the soul---then mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām: that bhakti, bhakti means transcendental love and service to God.

Prabhupāda: Bhakti means, yes, exchange of love between God and the individual soul.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This becomes awaking of the spiritual platform. So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness process is gradually to purify one, because that natural loving propensity is there. Our contention, and practically we are experiencing it, is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is natural way of life. It's not artificial imposition. Rather, in this present materialistic way of life, so many artificial standards and impositions have been put upon us. We can see that because culture is always changing. One year this is right to do, the next year that's right. Everything is simply mental concoction. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness process is eternal; it's never changed. We have history from the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. For millions and millions of years people have been engaged in the very same process that we're following = of chanting the holy names, worshiping the Deity in the temple, taking prasādam, association with saintly persons, like this. The very same process, it hasn't changed. And the very same sentiment of love of God is being awakened naturally. So our contention is that the love is simply misdirected. It simply has to be redirected towards Kṛṣṇa, and the spiritual master, he does this. He takes our energy, our love, our intelligence, our everything and directs it towards Kṛṣṇa. And as a result, you become purified. A very natural process. Just like we have a propensity to love, so rather than waste our love on the temporary forms of the material world, because they're all perishable... Dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv ātma-sainyeṣv asatsv api [SB 2.1.4]. First of all we love the body, deha. And apatya, we love the family members, the sons; kalatra, we love our wife; ādiṣu, we like our community, nation, so many things. But all of these things, they're temporary. They won't last; they can't endure. So all of our love practically is being wasted. It's stolen.

Prabhupāda: There is an example. In a water tank you throw one stone. It becomes a circle. And the circle expands, expands, expands unless the circle comes to the shore. Similarly, our loving affair begins from personal self to family, from family to society, community, nation, international. But still, it is imperfect unless the circle reaches to the lotus feet of God. Then it is satisfied. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce [Cc. Madhya 22.42]. Here, any loving affairs, that is more or less lusty. A man or woman love each other with some desire, not without desire. That desire is sense gratification. But actually that is lust, not love. Pure love can be exchanged in relationship with God. Here there are temporary... A boy, a girl, or a man, a woman in relationship of love, but it breaks as soon as the lusty desire is not fulfilled. So here there is no question of love. It is all lusty desire. Real love can be achieved when it is exchanged with Kṛṣṇa, or God. Premā pum-artho mahān [Caitanya-mañjuṣa], that is the recommendation given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That is the highest achievement, when we come on the loving platform with God. Then we are satisfied. Big, big political leaders in our country like Mahatma Gandhi, he loved his country so much. But the reward was that he was killed by his own men, by his countrymen. But this is not possible when the love is exchanged between God. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati [Bg. 9.31]. A little love for God can save you from the greatest danger of life. That is real love.

And if you love Kṛṣṇa, then you can love with everyone. Just like we are spreading this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is out of love for Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise we would have sat down at home and loved Kṛṣṇa. Why you are trying to spread this love exchange to others? Because I know or we know that here in this material world, the so-called love exchange is frustrating, and people are being frustrated. So let him love Kṛṣṇa, then we'll be successful. This is our mission. Everyone has got loving propensity. So this child has now love for his mother, or the mother has got... But as soon as the child will grow, the love will finish; he will love somebody else. When he becomes young man, his love is transferred to somebody else. So here the so-called love is not permanent, but when you love Kṛṣṇa it is permanent exchange of loving humor or mellow. So that is required. Sai. It is called sai-bhava. Sai means permanent; it will never vanquish. You'll relish loving mellows eternally.

āśliṣya vā pāda-ratāṁ pinaṣṭu mām
marma-hatāṁ karotu vā
yathā tathā vā vidadhātu lampaṭo
mat-prāṇa-nāthas tu sa eva nāparaḥ

[Cc. Antya 20.47]

Explain this verse.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The eighth verse of Caitanya Mahāprabhu Śikṣāṣṭaka.

Prabhupāda: Śikṣāṣṭaka.

Satsvarūpa: "I do not know anyone but Kṛṣṇa as my Lord."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: This is Lord Caitanya. He wrote only eight verses about all this literature. Then there is files and volumes and volumes about love of God. So in this Śikṣāṣṭakam, eight verses, the last verse is translated as, He prays = "I do not know anyone but Kṛṣṇa as my Lord, and He will always remain as such, even if He handles me roughly in His embrace or makes me brokenhearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything and everything, and He will remain my worshipable Lord unconditionally." So this is just the opposite. This is pure love, just the opposite of the..., what Śrīla Prabhupāda is explaining that in this material world love is based on some desire that actually becomes a kind of business, that "I love you if you will respond in this way." What to speak of someone saying that "I love you, even if you act as a debauch. You don't have to be faithful," that's... "You can do as you like in your own way, but my declaration is that I simply want to serve You and You'll always be my worshipable object." So love should be like that, otherwise it is simply business, that I will give you the product if you give me the money. But the lover is the living being...

Prabhupāda: You shall not expect anything in return. That is real love. Just like this mother is loving child, expecting anything---no, not expecting any return. But she still she gives service. So that is as a little sample of pure love. But here also some... When the child is grown up, if the child is not obedient, the mother practically withdraws love. But in the spiritual world, unconditionally love is there. As it is explained, āśliṣya vā pāda-ratāṁ pinaṣṭu mām. Marma-hatām [Cc. Antya 20.47] = whatever You do, I don't mind that, but still I love You. That's all. That is pure love.

Guest (1): As a mother loves the child in pure love, does that help her to also find the pure love in the spiritual world?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Just like Mother Yaśodā is loving Kṛṣṇa. Nanda Mahārāja is loving Kṛṣṇa. That is pure love.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: This, this loving affair between mother and the son is a perverted reflection of that pure love.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think he's asking a question also that sometimes comes up, that if one loves in this material love, for example one loves a child or loves humanity, does this help to develop love of God?

Prabhupāda: No. But if you love God, it helps to love the human beings.

Guest (1): I see. It's the other way.

Prabhupāda: Just like if you supply food to the stomach, it helps the eyesight, but if you supply food to the eyes, then you become blind. [laughter]

Guest (1): Thank you.

Devotee: Is it important for..., like we have our children here. As we come to this movement we're like children, it's important how we are molded, we are molded into the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as for example a child, it's important how the mother molds her activities, the child's activities, mold the child's life so that as the child grows up, acts towards Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's asking a question, Śrīla Prabhupāda = isn't it important to mold the activities of ourselves and also the children who come into this movement; to mold them so that we can become Kṛṣṇa conscious?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our gurukula is there. Now these children are becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, [indistinct] we see how they are learning Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are doing the same thing = offering obeisances to the Deities, taking prasādam, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, in the same way as his father is doing. So automatically he's being trained up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Good association, that is required. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvidaḥ [SB 3.25.25]. We are keeping this house why? For association of devotees, so that automatically they become Kṛṣṇa conscious by association. The most unfortunate position is that there is no education about future life, or the perfection of life. The education is the animal education = the animal eating; we are eating. If we are eating on table, or nice place, nice chair, then we think we are advanced. But the business is the eating. Similarly sleeping. The dog is sleeping on the street; we are sleeping in good apartment, skyscraper building. They are thinking this is advancement of civilization. But actually the business is sleeping. Similarly sex life. The dog is having sex life on the street; we are having in a very nice apartment. The business is sex. In this way our modern activities are animal activities, but in a polished way. But that does not make any difference between the animal propensities and so-called civilized life. Civilized life is there when we understand what is God, our relationship with God. That is civilized life. But that is lacking. There is no such education. The education is only the same animal life in a polished way, that's all.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, could it be said that in a society where stress is placed on developing this understanding of God, people would naturally become disinclined for these so-called modern activities of sense gratification?

Prabhupāda: That is the best qualification. If he becomes disinterested with these so-called modern civilized activities, that is the perfection of life. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt [SB 11.2.42]. Bhakti means the more you become God conscious, you become disinterested with these material activities. And that is needed, because material activities means you are wasting our time. What is the value of animal life? It is risky. If we become like animals, then we'll become animal next birth. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram [Bg. 8.6]. At the time of death, the mind's position will give me another body. That is nature's law. That we do not know. There is no education how the body is being transferred, how the soul is transferred to a different body. And there are 8,400,000 different forms of body, and at the time of death, according to our mentality, we have to accept by nature's law a type of body which may not be human body. That we do not know. There is no education. The people are kept in darkness about the laws of nature. That is a very risky civilization.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes they...

Prabhupāda: Just like a... Without any knowledge if we infect some disease, it will manifest in due course of time, and you'll have to suffer. Similarly, without any knowledge we are infecting the modes of material nature, and according to that modes of material nature, you have to accept a type of body which may not be very comfortable. Of course, there is no comfort when there is death. We don't want death, but there is compulsory death. There is no comfort at all. But still, the short duration of life, if we have little comfort... But again if we have discomfortable life, then what is the benefit of this comfort? That material laws of nature we do not know, neither any education about it. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is giving that education. Therefore it is not a sentimental so-called religious movement, it is a scientific movement of real education, to solve the problems of life.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't think human society has been educated to even understand the problem, what to speak of a cure.

Prabhupāda: Problem there is, but he's a fool. Who wants to die? Why this fire brigade is running here and there? To save life. He doesn't want to die.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They will say, though, that everyone has to die.

Prabhupāda: They will say, that is... Whatever they... Foolishly whatever they may say, then let them say. Actually he doesn't like to die. Otherwise let there be fire. Why you call fire brigade? Let me die peacefully in the fire. [laughter] Nonsense, he's suffering, but still he says there is no suffering. That is nonsense. That is ignorance. He's suffering every moment, but he does not know why he's suffering. That is ignorance. Just like an animal you are taking into the slaughterhouse. He's suffering, he's screaming, but he does not know, "Why you have taken to slaughterhouse, and I am [indistinct]?" And that is animal life. And when there will be question of "Why I am suffering? I did not want this fire; why there is fire?" that is perfect [indistinct]. Is there any solution? Then there is human life. And if he remains like animal, and simply try to make some remedial measures... He's suffering, undoubtedly, but because he does not take it seriously, therefore he's animal. Animal does not take seriously why he's suffering. That is the distinction between human life and animal life. Suffering is there, but the animal does not take it seriously.

But human life must take it seriously, otherwise he's an animal. There are so many sufferings. This is adhibhau..., adhidaivika. Adhidaivika: by---you say accident---by nature, by superior power, some miserable condition is enforced upon us. Suppose if there is an earthquake, that is not in your hand, but it may cause some havoc. This is adhidaivika. Similarly, adhibhautika: suffering caused by other living entities. And adhyātmika, suffering caused by this body and mind. So suffering is always there, but we are suffering, we have been accustomed to suffer. But when the question is that "Why I am suffering? Whether there is any remedy?" that is human life. Otherwise, the animal life. That is the distinction between animal and human life. If there is fire, and there are animals only, dogs and cats, they cannot call fire brigade. They'll die, because they do not know how to take measures. But human being immediately calls fire brigade just to try to save himself. But the suffering is there, either he's animal or human being. But the distinction is the human being tries to counteract it; the animal cannot. So if you simply become subject to this suffering without any remedial measure, then you are animal. And you are suffering and you try for the remedial measure, that is human life. This is plain thing. You cannot say there is no suffering. Suffering is there both for the animal and for the man. The man tries for the remedial measure; the animal cannot. Hmm, what is that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some of the modern-day cults in America, different philosophies, they say that all of the suffering is experienced within the mind. So they try by meditation to ignore the suffering.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. When there is fire you meditate. Why do you call fire brigade? If you are so great meditator, then you go on meditating. Why you call for fire brigade? Nonsense. All rascals, that's all. [laughter] Simply rascals. Mūḍha. They have been described as mūḍha. Rascals, that's all.

Devotee: Sometimes they say it's just a dream, and they say if you are bothering me, and you are just my dream, I don't have to worry about it. I'll have another dream and you'll go away.

Prabhupāda: No, but dream is... It may be, but when there is fire, you call it dream, but why do you call fire brigade? When you are diseased, why you go to physician? Dream it. [laughter] [break] The major problem is birth, death and old age and disease. We do not want that. You must seek the measures. That is human life. Whether birth, death, old age, disease can be stopped? If there is any such life that there is no more birth, death, that is human life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. That is the Vedānta philosophy = "Now the human life is meant for enquiring about these things." If you don't enquire, then you remain animal.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to save the human society from this animal life, to bring him to the real human life. Animal life means there is suffering---go on suffering. Human life means there is suffering---how to get..., how to counteract. That is human life. Suffering... So long you have got this body, there must be suffering.

nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma
yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti
na sādhu manye yata ātmano 'yam
asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ

The karmīs... Ṛṣabhadeva is warning that nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma: these rascals, being mad after sense gratification, they are doing everything and anything irresponsibly. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ. Pramattaḥ means mad. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma: things which you should not have done, but he's doing it. Why? Yad indriya-prītaya: simply for sense gratification. Therefore, He advises, na sādhu ayam: this is not good. So why it is not good? Yata: he has already got a body, material body for which he's suffering, and he's again creating the circumstance by which he'll again get a material body and will suffer. Therefore, one should act very responsibly. Not like madmen. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4].

Then Ṛṣabhadeva instructs, nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. This body, although I have got this body, and the dog has got the body or the hog has got the body, but these bodies are not meant for being spoiled like the dogs and hogs. The hog is also whole day working to find out where is stool. So if you also work whole day and night for our sense gratification, then where is the difference between the hog's life and my life? The human life, human brain should be sober to understand what is the problem of life, why I'm subjected to so many tribulations, how to remedy, how to find out the remedy, and that requires tapasya. Tapo divyam [SB 5.5.1]. In order to create that brain, it requires a little tapasya. Therefore we are recommending no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. Because we are already mad by material existence, and again we are... If you are forced to become more and more mad by intoxication, by meat-eating, by this..., then where is your life? Your life is finished. Because to understand these problems of life requires a little brain. So to create that brain, this little tapasya is required. He's already puzzled, and if you make him more and more puzzled by supplying him intoxication and this gross eating of meat, then he remains in the grossest platform of ignorance. That is not human activity. The brain must be little clear to understand what is the value of life, why I am suffering, if there is any remedial measure, how can I take it. That is brain. And if the brain is used only to find out where is sense gratification, where is sex, where is food, where is shelter, where is money, then, that is, that business is being done by the hogs and dogs.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to save people from this dogs' and hogs' life and to come to the real platform of understanding the value of life. They do not know it. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. They do not know what is the aim of life. Simply by false hopes they are trying to adjust things with material effects. That will never be done. Durāśayā. Durāśayā means it is useless hope. It cannot be. Just like we practically see that the here in New York City, American people are very rich and intelligent, but they cannot stop this fire, which is unwanted. They cannot stop it. That is not possible. Because they are living very high, 300 feet high or more than that, you are not safe still. You are still in the same danger. Because you are living in big, big skyscraper building, it does not mean that you will not die. Death is there also---birth, death, old age, disease, the real problems of life. It does not mean that because we have advanced in so-called material civilization, you have avoided birth, death. Even big, big scientists who gave us so many big, big inventions, but still they died. They could not invent something which will protect them from death, that "At the time of death, give me this pill so that I will not die, and I'll go on giving you more scientific advance." That is not possible. What is your question?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That some people think that by meditating they can somehow or another ignore...

Prabhupāda: Meditating means this subject matter = that I don't want death; why death comes upon me? That is real meditation.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then the problems of life are more than simply those which we perceive?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, what is the meditation? Think about something seriously. That is meditation. But if you have no important serious thinking, simply some imagination, how it will help you?

Ādi-keśava: Excuse me, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This evening they are having one convention here, the Democratic National Convention. One of the two big political parties in the city, at one place called Madison Square Garden. And all the television and newspaper people in the whole country will be there. They're beginning at 8 o'clock this evening. So we want to send all the devotees in the temple on saṅkīrtana party there, because we feel that not only will the atmosphere become purified, but also all the television cameras and all the newspaper people will interview our devotees and take their pictures, and they will be on television all over the country, simply because...

Prabhupāda: That is good cause.

Ādi-keśava: So we are requesting if all the devotees can possibly go.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ādi-keśava: In that way they can all attend, if we have a big force...

Prabhupāda: At least, let them hear Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotees: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Ādi-keśava: I have a feeling it could be just like with the Chand Kazi. When he was... Lord Caitanya made a civil disobedience mood. Perhaps if we chant loudly enough...

Prabhupāda: No, by hearing this transcendental vibration they will benefited.

Rādhā-vallabha: The actual presidential candidates will be there.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Rādhā-vallabha: Presidential candidates, the candidates for the president of the United States, they'll be there.

Satsvarūpa: They'll all be there tonight.

Prabhupāda: All right. Go ahead, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Rāmeśvara: Thank you Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [devotees pay obeisances] Give them prasādam. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Both of you were in India?

Satsvarūpa: No, only Mahābuddhi and Bhūgarbha, who is not here right now.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So?

Satsvarūpa: So they were very successful. Now we're thinking we'd like to take this party all over the world if we could.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Do.

Satsvarūpa: Not... So far we've had our scope, the United States. We wanted to make it the whole world.

Prabhupāda: Why not? Books are being appreciated even by Russia.

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes, so the scope is everywhere. What is your experience?

Devotee (2): India, Prabhupāda. It was very, very large, and I wrote you some letters, but the experience is even greater...

Prabhupāda: [guests come in] Oh! Mr.... Come on. So Mrs. Kallman is going to become a sannyāsī, [indistinct]. Gradually you have to become.

Mrs. Kallman: Must.

Prabhupāda: So if you feel uncomfortable, you can sit on this.

Mr. Kallman: No, no. The cushion...

Prabhupāda: You are already accustomed

Mr. Kallman: I'm always accustomed.

Prabhupāda: So, how are you?

Mr. Kallman: Very good, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: You are now in New York?

Mr. Kallman: I live here.

Prabhupāda: Oh. No, you live, I know. Sometimes you go out.

Mr. Kallman: Much traveling, but we've come for the parade.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Mr. Kallman: Down Fifth Avenue.

Prabhupāda: So you often you come to the temple?

Mr. Kallman: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. Hmm. So? Good... [break]

Devotee (2): Two hundreds places---universities, schools, government institutions, big ministers, temple managements for all...

Prabhupāda: They have given all orders?

Devotee (2): Yes, most of them gave orders to our... Even unlike, some like United States some place, they would order all seventeen Caitanya-caritāmṛtas, and all the volumes of Bhāgavatam out, and place an order for the rest to come, plus other books. And we lowered the price to about 45 rupees, which was..., which was right where they can afford to pay for the volumes and immediately take them.

Prabhupāda: What is the usual price?

Devotee (2): $7.95, which would be like too many..., eighty rupees or something like that. It would be very expensive for India for one volume.

Prabhupāda: So you have reduced the price?

Devotee (2): To forty-five rupees. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa made it very, very reasonable for them that they can partake.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. They are taking the book. That is wanted. We don't want much profit.

Devotee (2): Many, many reviewers also. Big Sanskrit... It's the largest in the world [indistinct] many professors here they also read the reviews and very much appreciate the books. All the different parts of India we visited, from north to south, east to west.

Prabhupāda: They're welcome. That's nice. So make world party.

Satsvarūpa: Yes, we're very excited to do that. We're going to present it to the GBC...

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Satsvarūpa: ...what our practical plan is. Take this same party everywhere---Europe and then India and then other places too.

Prabhupāda: We are getting good response for our books all over the world.

Mr. Kallman: Constantly growing. Any new volumes coming out?

Devotee (1): We're becoming so enthused when we hear you're translating so much, because now we're getting lots of text book orders, large orders, seventy, ninety, hundred books for one class, so they..., that's when the students are waiting for more books. They're constantly saying more and more.

Prabhupāda: So, you'll get it. You'll get it. [laughs]

Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So, give prasādam to Mr. Kallman.

Mr. Kallman: Prabhupāda, could you please accept this small donation.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. Give this garland.

Mr. Kallman: It's heavy! [laughs] We are still building the fund, left over from Gaurahari's work. So we're constantly putting more money into the fund, for your use, whatever.

Prabhupāda: Yes, my funds are being utilized in printing books and expanding centers. My Book Trust is divided into two = fifty percent for the printing the books and fifty percent for expanding centers.

Mr. Kallman: Any way I can help, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Kallman: You're going to have a big parade. My favorite.

Prabhupāda: You have got that store?

Mr. Kallman: Well, we're doing well wholesaling now, Prabhupāda. We sell to stores, department stores across the United States. We had to give up the store because we couldn't have, you know, timewise.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. You are now making wholesale business.

Mr. Kallman: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mrs. Kallman: More volume.

Prabhupāda: Wholesale business is better than retail business. My father was a wholesale cloth seller, cloth merchant. So he liked wholesale business, not retail.

Mr. Kallman: The wholesale is much better. It's more financial...

Prabhupāda: A little profit, but aggregate is better.

Mr. Kallman: The volume is more.

Prabhupāda: Yes, volume is more. In those days, he was making cloth business, he was making profit one anna or two paise per piece.

Mr. Kallman: Very small profit.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The Marwari businessmen, they want to sell for..., suppose one lakh of worth goods, if there is customer to pay him immediately one lakh ten rupees, he'll sell, immediately sell. He thinks, "I've got that ten rupees," that's all. Again for sale. That is their way of doing it. They are not calculating that "I have invested one lakh of rupees, I must get at least ten percent profit." No. Not at loss. A little profit. "Never mind, give me cash." That is Marwari business. And he, when he goes to purchase from his supplier, he sees that this man is purchasing at a time one lakh, two lakh. So he gives him all credit.

Mr. Kallman: Works on the credit.

Prabhupāda: So later on, he establishes his credit; without any payment he gets supplies. And they keep their credit. On the day of payment, they must pay.

Mr. Kallman: Yes, exactly.

Prabhupāda: Therefore the Marwaris, they become very big businessmen.

Mr. Kallman: Very powerful.

Prabhupāda: Yes. These Birlas, they have become so big, they have so much credit in the market that by telephone they will ask any gold merchant that "You purchase one thousand tolās of gold for me," he'll immediately purchase, because he has got credit.

Mr. Kallman: Sure, many years.

Prabhupāda: And next moment he phones another gold merchant, "What is the price?" he says. Say one anna less... "I'll sell one hundred tolās." So he'll purchase without any investment and sells immediately and makes one hundred tolās, one anna profit, some [indistinct].

Mr. Kallman: Sure.

Prabhupāda: By telephone.

Mr. Kallman: Very quick.

Prabhupāda: In this way, they become very, very big. They know how to use this art, these Marwaris. If you are going in India, you'll see Marwaris are very quickly they will come. They know how to do business.

Mr. Kallman: Volume.

Prabhupāda: Volume. Volume of the... Of course, volume of business can be done which is easily selling.

Mr. Kallman: It's a very good market, the United States, for clothing.

Prabhupāda: Clothing.

Mr. Kallman: Yes, constantly growing.

Prabhupāda: You are purchasing from Ahmedabad?

Mr. Kallman: We purchase from Bombay, out of Bombay.

Prabhupāda: Aḥ, Bombay. Bombay is the center. So now we are having our temple. Whenever you go, you can stay with us.

Mr. Kallman: Yes, we've been out there many times.

Prabhupāda: Hmm, hmm.

Mrs. Kallman: In Vṛndāvana?

Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana, Bombay.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bombay also.

Mr. Kallman: That's Juhu.

Prabhupāda: And Māy... You have been in Māyāpur also?

Mr. Kallman: No, we haven't ever been to Māyāpur. We keep...

Prabhupāda: Hmm, Māyāpur also.

Mrs. Kallman: How is the school in Vṛndāvana? The school?

Prabhupāda: That is still building is going on.

Mrs. Kallman: Have they started?

Prabhupāda: After the building is finished.

Mr. Kallman: Well, we know you must be very busy, Prabhupāda, with your writings and your books.

Prabhupāda: Yes, at night. At daytime I don't find time.

Mr. Kallman: Hmm, hmm.

Prabhupāda: But at night, I write.

Mr. Kallman: So, we just came to say hello.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Mr. Kallman: To see you.

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much.

Mr. Kallman: We'll see you at the parade.

Prabhupāda: Give this to Mrs. Kallman. Yes.

Mr. Kallman: Very, very much. Thank you very much, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Rāmeśvara: We've been talking = if these management questions come, then it is a distraction, but also... Even if the devotees are here and it is preachings, even then it's..., so much time is taken. So we want to do the thing which is most pleasing. So we were thinking to arrange a little less darśana with the devotees.

Prabhupāda: But outsider, if they refuse, they may be sorry.

Rāmeśvara: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: That is...

Satsvarūpa: No outsiders be refused.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Satsvarūpa: No outsiders be refused.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ādi-keśava: We are arranging..., I have arranged that each time in the morning when we go for a walk, we are taking all the devotees...

Prabhupāda: Only for outsider you keep, say, from 5 to 6, and...

Rāmeśvara: Important men.

Prabhupāda: Hah.

Rāmeśvara: If they are important.

Prabhupāda: Let them come one by one. If they come one at a time, they will sit down. They'll not try to go away. But if they come, sit for two minutes and go away, then another comes... Then it will be nice interview.

Rāmeśvara: I see. There must be management.

Hari-śauri: And the devotees can come in the morning for class.

Prabhupāda: That's right. Try this experiment.

Rāmeśvara: Anything that we can do to assist you in the translating work is the best service.

Prabhupāda: Hmm, yes.

Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break]

Rādhā-vallabha: It's mustard oil.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Rādhā-vallabha: It's mustard oil with spices, and I am not sure what the fruit is. It may be mango, I'm not sure.

Hari-śauri: It's some kind of crude mango pickle.

Prabhupāda: Why not take little?

Rādhā-vallabha: Do you want me to try it to see what it is?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rādhā-vallabha: Hare Kṛṣṇa!

Prabhupāda: You have taken? What is that?

Rādhā-vallabha: I can't tell.

Prabhupāda: No taste?

Rādhā-vallabha: It tastes like mustard oil and spices. I think it's mango.

Rāmeśvara: Yes, that may be it.

Rādhā-vallabha: I think it's green mango.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Rādhā-vallabha: What do you think?

Hari-śauri: Yes, it's mango.

Prabhupāda: It's mango? That's nice.

Hari-śauri: Tastes like pickled onions. [break]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This verse that we were studying yesterday:

yogya-pātra hao tumi bhakti pravartāite
krame saba tattva śuna, kahiye tomāte

[Cc. Madhya 20.107]

"You are fit to propagate the cult of devotional service. Therefore gradually hear all the truths about it from Me. I shall tell you about them."

Prabhupāda: This is the... [break] ...to see the newest sanitary condition.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: Such an important country. So nasty everywhere, park, street. What is there? This is not good sign. In other cities, you see so neat and clean. Washington, even that parkway, so neat and clean. Why this city is neglected? Los Angeles also, neat and clean. Which other cities we went?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Detroit.

Prabhupāda: Detroit is... Detroit is also.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That park was a little dirty also.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Beer cans and...

Prabhupāda: This is national degradation. Every state full of garbage, litters. Not only now; I was living here [indistinct], the last ten years. At least I have seen.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One of the parents of the devotees who came the other day, they said they went to Vṛndāvana, and the gentleman who bought those pictures, photographs in Washington...

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...he said he was surprised how clean Vṛndāvana was.

Prabhupāda: Mean, even the poorest man's house you go in the village, you'll find everything neat and clean. At least the kitchen and eating, very neat and clean. Climatic condition is also nice. Almost all the year there is sunshine. Only during rainy season the sun is... That is also cooling effect. After summer season, the rainy season covering, there is enjoyable cooling. Now everywhere... [end]