Evening Darśana , Washington, D.C. , 1976-07-08

Vipina: He would like to know if you have any questions in particular you might like to ask.

Guest: No.

Vipina: No? Jaya.

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] [break] Hmm.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's a very big library, many books.

Prabhupāda: They have all our books?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Including the earlier Bhāgavatam, Śrīla Prabhupāda's earlier volumes from India; it's available here.

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] You like our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? You know how we have got New Vrindavan here in America? We are giving protection to the cows, in New Orleans, and... What other places?

Vipina: Virginia, Rūpānuga's farm.

Hari-śauri: Tennessee, Bridesville.

Devotee: New York.

Indian man (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, some of Indian people, they quote Veda and say that beef-eating was recommended in Vedas, and I don't know it is true or not, but they quote Vedas, Atharva-veda and...

Prabhupāda: Do they give any quotation?

Indian man (1): No, they don't give any quotation, they just say...

Prabhupāda: Rascals. [laughter]

Dr. Sharma: Even scientifically now it is being proven that many of the diseases, like of the kidneys, of the heart, arterial sclerosis, arteriosclerosis, uremia, gout, is because of high protein diet, particularly meat. Many of the scientists now are going away from meat by chanting.

Prabhupāda: By?

Dr. Sharma: By chanting Kṛṣṇa we also feel that meat is no longer necessity, in fact it is harmful for longevity and health of the body. So whether it is beef, pork or anything, all this meat is very harmful. Both in Heart Institute, cancer and others, they are finding that meat is harmful for the body---on scientific grounds, religious grounds apart.

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda? The Christians claim that Christ ate meat and therefore there's nothing wrong with it.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee (1): The Christians say that Christ ate meat himself, and that there's nothing wrong with it.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Christ ate meat? I don't think so.

Hari-śauri: They say fish.

Prabhupāda: Therefore you should maintain slaughterhouse. Very good reasoning. Because Christ ate fish, therefore we should maintain big, big slaughterhouse? Is that good reasoning? Hmm?

Dr. Sharma: Meat-eating is not useful from three points of view.

Prabhupāda: No, no, apart from that. He said that Christ ate fish, therefore we should maintain big, big slaughterhouse. What do you think? Is that good reasoning?

Devotee (2): No, it's demoniac. By common sense if you maintain large slaughterhouses, it's completely irreligious.

Prabhupāda: When Christ said, "Thou shalt not kill," does it mean that he wanted to maintain slaughterhouse? What is the answer? Hmm?

Devotee (1): No.

Bṛṣākapi: The Christians, they say that you kill the vegetables, you slaughter the vegetables.

Prabhupāda: Therefore we shall kill father, mother. You kill vegetables, therefore I shall kill my father and mother. Is that reasoning?

Dr. Sharma: I have a different concept of [indistinct], if I may give = When I'll be half as good as Christ, maybe I can be permitted to eat meat.

Prabhupāda: No, take the example of Christ. But because he ate fish, so because we eat vegetable, therefore a good cause for eating father and mother? For killing child?

Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, they say that only the human has a soul, and so therefore it's wrong to kill humans. But other animals you can kill because there is no soul. That is their argument.

Devotee (3): They'll ask what should be killed and what shouldn't be killed for eating? Where do we draw the line?

Prabhupāda: No, you... We are speaking go-rakṣya. That is not point of view of killing. There are other animals. We do not say that you stop. If you want to eat some meat, at least don't kill cows. You can kill other insignificant animals which has no importance. Cow has got special importance because it supplies milk, and milk is very essential food that is... From the childhood, a child lives on milk, and there are many saintly persons, they also live by drinking milk. Milk is very important item in the human society, and it supplies all vitamins. Even if you say that "Meat-eating is essential for me," you can eat other animals, but don't kill cows. That is our proposal. Give protection to the cows. Kṛṣṇa mentioned specifically, go-rakṣya. He does not say that you don't kill, but you give protection to the cows. And if you want to eat meat, you can kill other animals. On the whole, paśu-hiṁsā, any animal killing, is not good for spiritual life. And so far vegetable is concerned, everyone has to eat something. So if you can eat vegetables, that does not mean because somebody is killing vegetables, he should kill his own father and mother on that plea. So cow is mother because we are drinking her milk. So you cannot put any argument in favor of killing mother. If you... Anyone who supplies milk from the body, she is mother. According to Vedic civilization, cow is one of the seven mothers. There are seven mothers = the real mother; ātma-mātā guroḥ patnī, the wife of spiritual master; then queen, rāja-patnī. Ātma-mātā guroḥ patnī brāhmaṇī, the wife of a brāhmaṇa. In this way, especially, seven mothers. Dhenu, dhenu means cow, and dhātrī, nurse, she is also mother. So from that point of view, cow is mother, and you cannot kill on any ground the mother. That is not good reasoning. You are taking the last drop of milk. In South Africa, you said?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They have one slaughterhouse, and just beside, I have seen, just beside there is dairy. So at night they bring the cows in to the dairy, milk them to the last drop, and then to the slaughterhouse and all night screaming. I heard, because the Indian neighborhood was about five hundred yards from the slaughterhouse. Then in the morning you'd drive by and the carcasses are hanging up.

Prabhupāda: So you are drawing the last drop of milk from the cow and sending her to the slaughterhouse. Is that very good civilization?

Dr. Sharma: Swāmījī, the beef industry here is based more on... The argument of mother would be a little weak.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Dr. Sharma: The beef industry here is more based on steers, which are not..., which are basically bulls given high estrogens and make in that way.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, we are layman, and we follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction that cow... Milk is very important, we drink the cow's milk, therefore she is mother. So at least she should be saved from being killed. This is common sense. Apart from other big, big reasoning, we take it. Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya, so we take it. Besides that, so far vegetable concerned, Kṛṣṇa says that patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26] = "If anyone offers Me even patram," patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam, "I eat them." So we take Kṛṣṇa's prasādam. So Kṛṣṇa says, "You give Me these vegetables, plants." So we offer Him, and then we take. Besides that, everybody has to eat something. So generally, food grains, vegetables, they are recommended for eating purpose. And those who want to eat meat or fish, they can do so, but at least they can avoid the important life of cow.

That is recommended. So far we are concerned, we are eating Kṛṣṇa prasādam, foodstuff offered to Kṛṣṇa, and this, there is no such thing as meat or fish or egg, but we are living. Not that because we do not eat meat or fish, we are dying. We can eat very easily. Anna. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. Actually, if we take food grains like wheat, rice, pulses, vegetables, fruits, milk, that is quite sufficient, nutritious foodstuff, full with vitamins and, what is called, protein, carbohydrate. That is sufficient. Why should we kill? At least, cow? That is our request. Because Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya. And in His practical life He played as a cowherd boy giving protection to other cows. There is a picture, Kṛṣṇa is sitting, and the cow and the calf is feeling very safety. Kṛṣṇa is embracing. So because we want to be Kṛṣṇa conscious, we want to follow His personal behavior and instruction.

Guest (1): Prabhupāda? For every animal except the cow, you said, like a..., does a person have to pay off a one-to-one ratio for the animal killed? Does he just has to come back one time for, like, killing a goat? Is it just one time, then, instead of many times?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? What is?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: His question is that is there some formula, that if you kill one animal or one thing, then you get killed in the exact same ratio? You kill one thing, you get killed once. So in other words, if you are responsible for killing hundreds and hundreds of animals throughout your lifetime, does one have to take birth hundreds and hundreds of times and be killed?

Prabhupāda: Yes. For killing, you cannot kill even vegetable. Yes?

Bṛṣākapi: This is Mr., ah..., what's your name?

Mr. Boyd: Boyd.

Bṛṣākapi: Mr. Boyd. His daughter is a devotee in Germany.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Mr. Boyd: Rambaru. I had the privilege of going to India a month ago and bringing her home, and I met two of your...

Prabhupāda: She is in India?

Mr. Boyd: Yes, she was at Vṛndāvana, and she's been there for about three months. She contracted malaria, I guess, and was not doing too well, and we got concerned. So we went down to see how she was. She was due to go back to Germany, so we brought her back here and got her back in shape, I guess, and sent her back to Germany. And while we were there I met one of your friends, I guess, a fellow named Mr. Dubhay?

Prabhupāda: Dubhay, yes, in Vṛndāvana.

Mr. Boyd: You know him. In Vṛndāvana, yes. And Himāvatī, and I told them I'd see you pretty soon. I thought maybe you might be interested in seeing a few pictures? She said she was your friend, and you were her very good friend, and sent her regards to you. [laughter] Anyway. That's quite a temple in Vṛndāvana. Very impressive.

Prabhupāda: Oh, you liked it?

Mr. Boyd: Very nice. It was quite startling to come up the roadway there, and things looked pretty desolate, and all of a sudden here's this beautiful temple sitting there, and it was a real experience.

Prabhupāda: Oh, here is Mr. Dubhay's picture.

Mr. Boyd: Yes. [laughter] He was quite a gentleman.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Did you stay in the guesthouse there too?

Mr. Boyd: No, I was just there a short time. I had to go down and come back. We were only down there about four days. We had to bring back Rambaru. She was in pretty rough shape. She had gotten malaria, only she wasn't doing too well.

Prabhupāda: What is this picture?

Mr. Boyd: That's just down the street from Mr. Dubhay, that's a big tree, it's an Indian tree, I don't know what it is, it grows up and down both. It happened to be near his yard, so I figured, well... [laughter] That would be a little highlight of that area.

Hari-śauri: Banyan tree.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They have banyan trees in America. In Florida.

Mr. Boyd: Oh, is that banyan tree? You see, they are not particular to this area.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, lots of them. In Florida and Hawaii.

Hari-śauri: Hawaii's full of them.

Mr. Boyd: That's not what I call my backyard. That was the first time I'd seen one. They indicated that the day before, they'd walked by there and was startled, there was an elephant standing under it. First time they'd seen one. Of course, you know, it's out of environment, if all of a sudden you see one, you don't realize it. I didn't realize it either, but in India, elephants are commonplace. But it's not common for me to be in India. [laughter] So it was quite an experience. I was very impressed with the cleanliness of the country, though, in that area.

Prabhupāda: Hmm, very nice pictures.

Mr. Boyd: The two that were taken in Philadelphia, they are not what I call quality work, but are the best I could do in a run. You didn't sit still too long.

Prabhupāda: This child is your daughter's son?

Mr. Boyd: No, that little fellow came from Germany.

Prabhupāda: She has got children? No.

Mr. Boyd: No, she doesn't have children, but Haṁsadūta Mahārāja sent this child down for Himāvatī to take care of at the school, and I guess the school was not ready yet, but she's taking care of him now, and he's a handful, too. She came up to New Delhi with us and spent a couple nights while we were getting some passports straightened around and visas cleared up. We had "Baldy," they called him---I never did know his name. We had a good time with him. It's a real pleasure having this opportunity to meet you.

Prabhupāda: Thank you.

Mr. Boyd: Rambaru's been in the movement for two and half years and it's been..., we've heard a lot about you and a lot about the movement, and we've kept pretty close, you know, track of what's going on, and we've visited the different temples and talked to the different devotees, and we're quite impressed with the action.

Prabhupāda: We are having the difficulties of this immigration department.

Mr. Boyd: I guess, if it's like India, you've got troubles. We almost went to jail rather than get out of the country.

Prabhupāda: We think, according to our philosophy, everything is the property of the Supreme Lord, and we are all sons. So everyone has the right to use the property of the father. So that consciousness should be spread. This barrier of nationalism is against Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why there should be? Actually, everything belongs to God. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. The sky, the land, the water, they are all creation of God, God's property. But we should not take more than what is allotted to us. That is real life. Otherwise, I have practically studied that there is enough land. Just like in your country, in America, there is enough land, not utilized. They can be properly utilized, and if food grains are produced, there is no question of scarcity of food all over the world. Not only in America---in Africa, in Australia. That side, Australia... [break] If we get nourishing food, every one of us, so there is no economic problems.

Mr. Boyd: How do we handle these people who don't seem to want to carry their own weight, though, Prabhupāda? The ones who don't want to work and help produce this food for the sharing?

Prabhupāda: They should be trained up. Therefore Vedic civilization is training. Some section of the people, they should be very intellectuals, brain, just like to maintain this body we require first of all the brain. If the brain is not order, then other parts, they may be there, but they are also useless. So similarly, in the society, some intellectuals should be maintained. They are called brāhmaṇas, and some of the brāhmaṇas, they are sannyāsīs. They are simply meant for giving good instruction. They should personally become very good and intellectual, and they should give instruction to other people what is the value of life, how to live. This is one section. They should be free from the anxiety of maintaining themselves. The society should treat them as children and give them all necessities, bare necessities, not they are meant for living very luxuriously. No. Simple living.

Then the next class, kṣatriyas, the politicians, administrators, they are also required, to give protection to the people from injury. Kṣatriya... Kṣat means injury, and trāyate, "one who saves people from injury." It is kṣatriya's duty. So kṣatriya should protect all the living entities, including the animals. They are also subjects. So the first, intellectual brāhmaṇas, then kṣatriya. Then vaiśyas, their business is to produce food. Food production you can do by agriculture, kṛṣi, and by giving protection to the cows. So if you get sufficient food grains, like rice, wheat, pulses, and sufficient milk---from milk you get yogurt, butter, ghee---then your all food problem is solved. You must eat. You must eat, you must live properly. So this first, second, third---the intellectual class, the administrative class and the productive class---these three classes must be there in the society. And those who cannot be grouped either of these three classes, they should generally help as worker. They are called śūdras. So the workers means... Suppose you require a sitting place = the carpenter is there. Suppose you require a knife = so the blacksmith is there. You require clothing = the weaver is there. In this way, four classes of men = first class, second class, third class, or the intellectuals, the administrators, the producers and the general workers. This is Vedic system of division.

Brāhmaṇa... This is for our living condition, and then human life especially meant for spiritual realization, self-realization. For that purpose, again, another four divisions. Generally, the brahmacārī, student life; gṛhastha, married life; vānaprastha, retired life; and sannyāsa, renounced life. So at the end of life one should be renounced from all other responsibilities and completely devote his life for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness. In this way, when a person dies in God consciousness, his life is perfect. This is Vedic civilization. Eight divisions, varṇa and āśrama. And if you simply produce śūdras, working class, then you cannot have any happiness. That is not possible. And nowadays, democratic, if you send some śūdras to act as kṣatriyas, they cannot do it. You have got practical experience. In Vietnam, what happened?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The American soldiers, they were simply taking intoxication, hunting after prostitutes and running from the enemy.

Prabhupāda: And when they were attacked, they were running away. Because they are śūdras. How they can fight? They are not trained up as kṣatriyas. Huh? Anyone who is unemployed, let him become a soldier, but he cannot fight. That is not possible. Neither this class of men can have good brain to give direction to the society. The democracy means anyone can go to the government, and because he's not kṣatriya, his only business is how to get money so long he's on the post. Just like you did not like your President, Mr. Nixon. So that is the risk. If you keep the society in chaotic condition, any department---intellectual, administration, production---they'll be all topsy turvey, and there cannot be any peace in the world.

So this Vedic scheme, varṇāśrama, is a very important scheme. If possible it should be introduced and taken up very seriously. That is one of the items of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, to reestablish the institution of varṇa and āśrama. Not by birth, but by qualification. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Guṇa-karma, by quality. In India, the varṇāśrama is there, but it is not organized because the government does not take care. The government is imitating Western way of life = "There is no need of brāhmaṇa, there is no need of kṣatriya, simply śūdras." Everywhere this is the position, the śūdra population. Kalau śūdra sambhavaḥ: in this age everyone is a śūdra. So it doesn't matter everyone is born śūdra, but he should be trained up. Just like in our practical life we see that everyone is not born a scientist or engineer or lawyer. Everyone is born innocent, child, then he's trained up by the guardians. Similarly, there should be a training how to become brāhmaṇa, how to become kṣatriya, how to become vaiśya. And the government should see that everyone, as he is trained up, he is working according to his quality and occupational duty. Then there will be complete peace and harmony. That human society is perfect.

Vipina: His question is that now the government is corrupt, so what can be immediately done?

Prabhupāda: How there can be? Because the democracy. You are corrupt, therefore your government is corrupt. You correct yourself, the government will be automatically corrected. If you are rascals, the government will be rascals. The government means elected. So if you are not rascal, you'll not elect another rascal to take charge of the government affairs. But because you are rascal, you'll send another rascal. So how can you expect good government? You do not know whom to select. And besides that, the whole population is rascal, śūdra. So anyone you elect, if he's by qualification he's a śūdra, worker, he's not intelligent person, he's not brāhmaṇa, he's not kṣatriya. Actually, the legislative assembly, or in your country, Senate? They should be all brāhmaṇas. They give advice.

Formerly this was the system. Although it was monarchy, even Lord Rāmacandra or similar kings, they were not ruling independently---they were taking advice from learned brāhmaṇas, sages. So the legislative assembly should be composition of intellectual brāhmaṇas. Then the other administrators, the president or the minister, they should be kṣatriyas. In this way, if social organization is made, then there will be perfect peace. If śūdras are allowed to rule over, what they know? Their only aim is that so long he is in the office, "Let me collect some money," that's all. And that will be the latest atmosphere, dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. Rājanyair dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. All the government men will become thieves and rogues. Dasyu, dasyu means thieves and rogues. So as the thieves and rogues capture you on the street and ask, "Whatever you have got, give, otherwise I shall kill you," so this will be the position in the Kali-yuga. It is happening now. You cannot have any private property; everything you have to declare, otherwise, it will be taken by force. So people will be very much embarrassed by two things = one thing is taxation, and another thing will be scarcity of food. In this way, all the people all over the world will be embarrassed, so much so that they will leave their home, hearth and home, ācchinna-dāra-draviṇā yāsyanti giri-kānanam [SB 12.2.8]. Being separated from family and property, they will take shelter in the hilly ranges or in the forest to get relief. This will be the position. Harassment, so much harassment, by nature, by government. [someone enters] Hare Kṛṣṇa.

So therefore for complete happy society, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is essential. All intelligent persons, they should join this movement and reform the present social, political, religious. All field of activities, they should reform. Then people will be happy. Not only happy in this life, but also next life. Unfortunately, the present education does not provide knowledge of next life. There is no such education. They are kept in darkness like cats and dogs. They do not know that there is life after death, and we get our next life according to our present activities---karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. These things are unknown. Very risky life. If I am prime minister in this life or president, and if I am going to become a dog next life, then what is the benefit of becoming prime minister or president? And nature's law is that you get your next life according to the mentality at the time of death. So if I have acted like cats and dogs throughout whole life, naturally I shall think like cats and dogs at the time of death. Then next life is cats and dogs. So I may be worshiped here in a statue, that "Here is our beloved prime minister," and next life, I'm barking as a dog. Then what is the benefit?

Mr. Boyd: Well, that might depend on what kind of prime minister you were.

Prabhupāda: No, that is possible. I can become prime minister or any big man. But if I do not work properly, if I work like animal, then my next life is animal. There is no consideration that "Here is a prime minister. Why he should become a dog?" Nature will act. If you infect some disease, you may be prime minister or you may be a common man, if you have infected that disease, you must suffer from that disease. That is nature's law. There is no consideration that "Here is prime minister. He has infected the malaria germs. He should not suffer." Nature's law if not like that. Just like you say that in India there is malaria. So your daughter was not excused, that "Here is a girl coming of very respectable, good family. She should be excused." No excuse. You have infected malaria germ, you must suffer. So similarly, kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu [Bg. 13.22]. We are associating with different modes of material nature, and according to our association, sat, asat, good birth or low-class birth is there---either as demigods in the higher planetary system or human being in the middle planetary system or as animals, low class. There are three classes of birth. That depends on our association with the modes of material nature---goodness, passion or ignorance. So at least in the human form of life nobody should be kept in ignorance. The facility must be given. That is civilization. Every human being should have the greatest opportunity to make his life successful. So that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Every human being is open to accept the principles of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and make his life successful. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. This is our propaganda, to give everyone the facility of perfection of life. Now somebody may take or somebody may not take, but the basic principle of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to offer everyone the best facility.

Vipina: Prabhupāda, what about in the case where you have this ideal civilization, with the brāhmaṇas instructing, but the brāhmaṇas don't agree? Just like in Bhagavad-gītā, the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra, there were many brāhmaṇas, but they didn't agree.

Prabhupāda: There were many brāhmaṇas? Who said?

Vipina: Well there's..., well, there was..., they were great kings, right? But they didn't agree on how..., who should have the kingdom? Arjuna and his relatives were in disagreement, great kṣatriya leaders.

Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas, they are not brāhmaṇas. So when there is disagreement, there is fight. The battle will decide. That is always, at the present moment also. When there is disagreement between nation and nation, there is war declaration. That is natural.

Vipina: This is Mr. Furman and his wife, Prabhupāda. Mr. Furman was the man who sold us this property.

Mr. Furman: Pleasure to meet you, Your Divine Grace. My wife, Lynn.

Prabhupāda: I'm very glad to see you.

Mrs. Furman: We saw you on television tonight. Did you see? Was it Channel Four? The news has been on, it's on again at eleven. Very nice.

Mr. Furman: It was a very good representation. Very good.

Prabhupāda: So it is not a sectarian religious sentimental movement. It is a movement for giving real education, knowledge, to the people all over the world without any discrimination. So at least those who are intelligent class of men, they should join and study this movement, and try to broadcast for the good of the human society. The basic principles I have already explained.

Mr. Boyd: A statement was made some time ago in a conversation that somebody was looking for the Gītā without the Rāma. Could you explain what they might be meaning by that?

Vipina: The Gītā without the...

Mr. Boyd: The Gītā without the Rāma, that's all the statement was, that kind of an indication.

Prabhupāda: Gītā without Rāma?

Dr. Sharma: Perhaps they said Gītā without Rāmāyaṇa. But you have already said:

yadā yadā hi dharmasya
glānir bhavati bhārata
abhyutthānam adharmasya
tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham

Which also, Hare Rāma, Hare Kṛṣṇa, includes Rāma.

Prabhupāda: Yes, there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa and Rāma.

Dr. Sharma: We do chant Rāma and Kṛṣṇa both.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa has said in the Gītā, "I am Rāma." "I am Rāma."

Hari-śauri: Who made the statement?

Mr. Boyd: I don't think it makes any difference who made the statement, it was just a comment that somebody wanted the Gītā without the Rāma, which indicated to me that they didn't want the whole picture, they didn't want the total package. Whatever it was, I couldn't put the two together, because Rambaru must have taken the Bhagavad-gītā back to Germany with her.

Dr. Sharma: Actually, here is a one-to-one translation. [Sanskrit]

Prabhupāda: The Tulasī dāsa's Rāmāyaṇa means Rāma-carita. It is not Rāmāyaṇa. Rāma-carita Manas. He was devotee of Lord Rāmacandra. So as he was thinking of Lord Rāmacandra, he has written. So he was a learned scholar, brāhmaṇa, he must have read Bhagavad-gītā, Bhāgavatam. So all his translation is there on the basis of the śāstra, especially Bhāgavata and Bhagavad-gītā. You'll find many parallel passages. But Gītā is the summary of all Vedic literatures, and it is spoken by the Personality of Godhead. So if we fix up our attention on the Bhagavad-gītā, then you can get advantage of all other śāstras.

Vipina: Śrīla Prabhupāda? This is Mr. Kruzowsky. He's a philosophy teacher at the University of Maryland. He's very much interested in yoga and meditation. He invited us to speak earlier this year in his class, philosophy and religion.

Devotee (3): And this is Emmet Holman, who teaches philosophy at George Mason University. He's also very interested in Indian philosophy.

Prabhupāda: We had some talk with Professor Kotovsky in Moscow. Recently our representative went to Moscow for selling our book. They have highly appreciated our books. They have given in writing, appreciations.

Mr. Boyd: Your Grace, in regards to the, shall we say, the organization of the movement as such, I somehow am led to believe that there's no coordination between, should I say, your office, in regards to the karmī world, and the different temples. Are each..., does each temple operate by itself, or each division operate by itself?

Prabhupāda: No, [indistinct]. There is separate arrangement for management, but the idea and philosophy is the same. Ultimately, I am managing. I have my twenty secretaries, they are called GBC, they are assisting me to manage. Every GBC has got a certain number of temples to supervise, and ultimately, I supervise everything. Therefore I come occasionally, stay for few days to see how things are going on. I have got hundred temples, big, big temples, very nice. They have organized palatial buildings. But I cannot stay anywhere. [laughter]

Mr. Boyd: That's the trouble with being the boss. If you don't do it, nobody else will.

Prabhupāda: As soon as I say, "Ah, it is very nice place," the time is over, they say "You please get out." [laughter and groans from devotees]

Mr. Boyd: The school in Vṛndāvana, is this..., I assume this is to be out there in the yard that they were clearing. When do you anticipate that will be built?

Prabhupāda: With the land, we are going to construct a nice building for the school. As soon as it is done, then we organize. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān... [SB 7.6.1]. From the very beginning of life, this Bhāgavata principle should be trained. That is perfect. Brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dānto guror hitam [SB 7.12.1]. They should be trained up how to live at the house of the spiritual master, to be trained up how to control the senses, dānta. Dānta means to practice how to control the senses. That is the difference between human being and animal. Animal cannot be trained up how to control their senses. That is not possible. But a human being can be trained up to control his senses. The yoga practice is meant for controlling the sense. Yoga-indriya-saṁyamī. That is the real yoga practice, not that I indulge in sense gratification as I like, and I become a yogī. This is all bogus. This is not yoga. Yoga means how to control the senses. Then I can concentrate my mind towards God realization and self-realization. If my senses are always disturbing, it is not possible to apply my mind for self-realization. That is not possible. So therefore the yoga practice, preliminary practice, is yama-niyama, controlling, niyama, under regulative principles. They are all described in the Sixth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā and other Vedic literature also. And the ultimate end of yoga practice is to think of Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection of yoga. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1]. By meditation, he is always thinking... This morning I was walking near that falls, I told, "This is the best place for practicing yoga." Yoga cannot be practiced in a fashionable way in a big city with showing[?] meditation. That is not possible. He must be free from everything, and in a secluded place, alone, he should meditate on the Supreme Lord. That is real yoga, controlling all the senses, all disturbances of the mind. Then it is perfect yoga. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1].

Dr. Sharma: Swāmījī, how different is this Chapter Six different from the Patañjali's yoga-śāstra and the rāja-yoga?

Prabhupāda: I don't think there is any.

Dr. Sharma: There is no difference.

Prabhupāda: There is no fundamental difference. The same. Bhagavad-gītā recommends that you should select a very secluded place in a solitary sacred place, you should make your āsana, sit down perpendicularly, don't close your eyes completely, half open, and concentrate on the tip of the nose. Everything is there. "And then think of Me." But Arjuna said, he said, "Oh, it is not possible." He was a frank gentleman. He was not a hypocrite. He said that "You are recommending all these yoga practice, it is not possible for me. I am a politician, I have to execute so many other businesses. I cannot go to the secluded place and sit down like this. So You are recommending me for yoga practice, but I say I cannot." But at the present moment, they have become more than Arjuna. [laughs] What Arjuna denied, they want to practice. This is another hypocrisy. Arjuna was not an ordinary man. He was so exalted that he could speak with Kṛṣṇa directly, and coming from royal family, and he's famous as great fighter. He refused, that "I cannot do it." And we are taking to yoga practice. We have become more than Arjuna. This is going on. He does not think himself that "Arjuna, such a great personality, he thought himself to be incapable to practicing yoga, and we are making a show of yoga, paying somebody large amounts of money." That's all. This is going on.

kṛte yad dhyāyato viṣṇuṁ
tretāyāṁ yajato makhaiḥ
dvāpare paricaryāyāṁ
kalau tad dhari-kīrtanāt

What was achievable by practicing yoga, that was possible... You are going?

Mr. Furman: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Give them some prasāda. Thank you for your kindness.

Mr. & Mrs. Furman: Pleasure meeting you.

Prabhupāda: So in the Kali-yuga, this age, so many difficulties, social, political, religious, cultural. So in Kali-yuga the practice of yoga is not possible. It was possible in the Satya-yuga. Kṛte yad dhyāyato viṣṇum. That is meditation. That was possible in the Satya-yuga. But in Kali-yuga you can do that, the same achievement you can have by hari-kīrtana, by chanting the holy name of the Lord. And factually you'll find our these disciples, young boys and girls, they are not practicing in a secluded place the yoga system. They are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. And bring any yogī in the world and talk with them and see the comparison. Because that is fashion only; it has no practical value. And here is practical value. Maybe one or two be successful, but mass of people, yoga practice is not recommended. That is not possible to be executed. But if you take to this hari-kīrtana movement, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, very soon, kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā śaśvac-chāntiṁ nigacchati [Bg. 9.31]. You see practically. They are young boys and girls. At least, they have given up the four principle of sinful life and they are practicing, and they will improve. If they stick to the principles, they will improve.

Dr. Sharma: According to yoga, a yogī becomes,

sama-duḥkha-sukhaḥ svasthaḥ
tulya-priyāpriyo dhīras

[Bg. 14.24]

Can it be achieved by saṅkīrtana?

Prabhupāda: Yes, everything will be achieved. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. Simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, one becomes liberated from all sinful reaction of life and he goes back to home, back to Godhead. Mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet. That is the recommendation.

Dr. Sharma: Can I ask one more question, Swāmījī? In chanting, they also say later on, gaṅgāmāyī ki jaya, yamunāmāyī ki jaya. We also have in Rāmāyaṇa, jato jaya sankara sata nama haya[?] [indistinct]. Śaṅkara's kīrtana in saṅkīrtana. Some people, just like he was indicating, some people are more inclined to worship Rāma, saying Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma instead of Hare Rāma, Hare Kṛṣṇa, both.

Prabhupāda: There is no difference.

Dr. Sharma: There is no difference.

Prabhupāda: Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu kṛṣṇaḥ svayaṁ samabhavat [Bs. 5.39]. Rāma is avatāra and Kṛṣṇa is svayaṁ Bhagavān. There is no difference.

Dr. Sharma: What would you classify as demigods, then?

Prabhupāda: Demigod means just like you or me, ordinary living being, but they are very pious. On account of their piety they have got very good post. Just like janma... There are four = to get birth in very high, aristocratic family; to become very learned scholar; to become beautiful in bodily feature. Janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrī [SB 1.8.26] = high parentage, birth, to take birth in aristocratic family, in brāhmaṇa family or very exalted royal family. This is janma. And śrutī, to become very learned scholar. Janma, aiśvarya, to become very rich. Janmaiśvarya-śruta, śruta means education, and śrī, bodily beauty. These things are obtained on account of piety, pious activities. And just the opposite, low-class family = lowborn, no money, always poverty-stricken, no education, no bodily beauty, these are the results of impious activities. So the demigods means on account of their pious activities they get the situation in higher planet, where the duration of life is ten thousands of years, and their one day is equal to our six months. Such ten thousands of years. Very beautiful body, facilities. There... The other day I was reading about the bodily construction of woman there. They are ever-young, the chest is very hard. [laughs] It is stated, yes. So such class of woman is there, and aiśvarya, nandana-kānana, so many things. The roads are paved with pearls and jewels, not these pebbles. In the higher planetary system there is facility for higher standard of material comforts. So they get there birth and enjoy for ten thousand of years.

But it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, kṣīṇe puṇye punar martya-lokaṁ viśanti [Bg. 9.21]. As soon as they spend up their resultant action of pious activities, then again drop down, kṣīṇe puṇye punar martya-lokaṁ viśanti. And again begins life from the grass. They fall down with rains, and then they grow as grass. Then evolutional life begins, from plant life to insect life, to insect life to bird's life:

jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi
sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati
kṛmayo rudra-saṅkhyayaḥ
pakṣīṇāṁ daśa-lakṣaṇam[?]

[Padma Purāṇa]


Again he can make choice whether he goes to higher planetary system or lower planetary system or back to Godhead. Yānti deva-vratā devān pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.25]. He makes his choice. This is an opportunity. And the instruction is there in the Bhagavad-gītā, whether you want again go to the higher planetary system, demigods' residence, yānti deva-vratā devān, or you want to remain here, bhūtejyāḥ, or you want to go down, or you want to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is your selection. Make your selection. So you can do. Either you go again to this human form of life. This opportunity is there. If you want, you can go again to the higher planetary system, live there for so many years, and again when your resultant action of pious activities is finished, you again come and become a grass, and again begin... This is going on. But where is the science to understand how the process is going on? Therefore people are kept in ignorance. They have dismissed the idea, that there is no life after death, that's all.

Guest: [leaving] Your Grace, it was a pleasure.

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. There is no education. They are kept in ignorance. That is the problem, risky civilization, that people are kept in dark ignorance about the problems of the life. They do not know. They are struggling from the beginning of life, but they do not know what is the problem of life. Neither they have any information what are all these different planets, how they are being used, who are using them. They have no information. They are making a show of going to the moon planet, Mars planet---useless attempt. And presenting some photograph from Arizona. That is going on.

Mr. Boyd: Can I ask a question? Am I to understand that women cannot go back to Godhead without being reincarnated to the male?

Prabhupāda: No, not necessarily. Who says that?

Mr. Boyd: Well, for two and a half years I've been getting this from my daughter, that women cannot be reincarnated, and it didn't make sense to me. But I've asked questions and looked through the books as much as I could, and I haven't been able to find anything that said that.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That verse, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya [Bg. 9.32].

Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa says that even women, [s]he can go back to home, back to Godhead. Striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. There is no such thing. Anyone who is devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he or she will go back to home, back to Godhead. There is no such discrimination. Ordinarily it is supposed that woman is less intelligent than the man. That's a fact. But that is in bodily understanding. But in the spiritual platform, either woman or man or cat or dog or brāhmaṇa or... Everyone is spirit soul. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. One who is learned, he sees everyone on the same level of spiritual platform.

Guest (2): Your Grace? How can a person tell what his or her duty or occupation is supposed to be?

Prabhupāda: Yes, duty is already prescribed, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. You have read Bhagavad-gītā? So this is the duty = "You give up all other duties, you simply take to Me, surrender unto Me." This is duty. All other duties, they are temporary, and this is real duty, to surrender to God. If you think that "I am giving up all other duties, my family duty, my community duty, my national duty and so many..." Because you may think like that, that "Giving up all duties, I simply become Kṛṣṇa conscious," as Arjuna was thinking. But Kṛṣṇa gives you assurance, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ [Bg. 18.66] = "Don't worry, I shall give protection. If you think that by giving up other duties you'll be sinful, so I give you assurance that I shall give you all protection." It is clearly stated. So this is the only duty = how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa and become His perfect devotee. This is the only duty.

Dr. Sharma: What does it refer to, then, in karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana [Bg. 2.47]?

Prabhupāda: That is when you do not know what is the ultimate duty. Because you are thinking that you are Indian, somebody is thinking he's American, somebody is thinking he's this or that. So there the advice is try to relinquish the result of your action. Don't be attached to the resultant action of your duty. The idea is to become detached, but because you cannot do it immediately, therefore the advice is, "All right, you remain in your so-called duty, but don't be attached to the result of your action." Then where the action will go? Suppose I am a businessman and I have earned, say, two million dollars. So mā phaleṣu kadācana, the result is already there, what shall I do it? Two millions of dollars, I shall throw it in the street? What do you think?

Dr. Sharma: Not to be attached to it.

Prabhupāda: Not attached. Material attachment... "No attachment" means I have earned this two millions dollars, and I throw it away. That is no attachment. But that is also stated, yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi yat tapasyasi kuruṣva tat mad-arpaṇam [Bg. 9.27] = "Give that money to Me." Vāmanadeva. "Mahārāja Bali, you are so great personality. Give Me three feet of land." Then He covered the whole universe. So that is Kṛṣṇa's policy. Mā phaleṣu kadācana. Then what shall I do with the result? "Give Me." That is bhakti. He'll not immediately give it up, but Kṛṣṇa as a beggar, as Vāmanadeva, He's asking, "Give Me." And if you are actually following Kṛṣṇa's instructions, you'll give it. The actual fact is that you become attached to Kṛṣṇa and detached to everything. But as you cannot do it immediately, this is a policy. The same policy, Vāmanadeva. He went to beg from Bali Mahārāja. So Bali Mahārāja was very munificent, he gave Him, "Yes, promise, whatever You want, I shall give." So He took everything.

Dr. Sharma: In the Eighteenth Chapter they say sve sve karmaṇi.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Hari-śauri: Sve sve karmaṇi. "A man can become perfect by doing his prescribed duty."

Prabhupāda: Yes, it's a fact. If you work as a brāhmaṇa... If you are thinking yourself as a brāhmaṇa, then you act as brāhmaṇa. You cannot act as a śūdra. As a brāhmaṇa you cannot accept anyone's service; then you become śūdra. You deviate from your own position. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, they'll never accept anyone's service, only the śūdra. Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. When you live at the mercy of others, this is called dog's business. Just like a dog lives at the mercy of the master. So it is strictly prohibited for the brāhmaṇas. Even in very difficult position, you can act as a kṣatriya, you can act as a vaiśya, but never accept the position of a dog, a śūdra. This is the injunction. Sve sve karmaṇi, you stick to your own business. If you claim as a brāhmaṇa, then you must act as a brāhmaṇa. Then you'll become successful. You cannot remain a brāhmaṇa and accept the business of a dog. That is not sve sve karmaṇi.

So everything, what is stated there in the Bhagavad-gītā, that is perfect. People at the present moment, they are living at the mercy of others. That is dog's business. Therefore in the śāstra it is said kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In the Kali-yuga everyone is a śūdra. There is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśya. That is generally accepted. Because at the present moment education means to get some service. What is the value of that education? If you become dependent on others, then what is the value of this education? Therefore kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ, everyone is a śūdra. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement says, striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrāḥ [Bg. 9.32] = never mind, even if you are śūdra, take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you'll become perfect. Either you become woman or vaiśya or śūdra, it doesn't matter, or any other pāpa-yoni, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ, te 'pi yānti parām [Bg. 9.32]. So this is the most liberal movement, that it doesn't matter what you are, if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness then you become perfect. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. He's on the Brahman platform, above all these different modes of material nature. These brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, these are differences on the material platform. But when you come to the spiritual platform, there is no such difference. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18].

So we are trying to bring everyone to that spiritual platform. Therefore they cannot understand. They vision everything from materialistic point of view. They have no idea of spiritual life; therefore they misunderstand. But if we read thoroughly Bhagavad-gītā, then everything is clear. Sve sve karmaṇi means he must act according to his position. If he claims to become a brāhmaṇa, he must act as brāhmaṇa. Guṇa-karma. If you actually have the brāhmaṇa's qualification, you must act as a brāhmaṇa. Otherwise, what is the use of claiming that "I am a brāhmaṇa"? That is not accepted.

Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda? The karmī is thinking that service to humanity is the real high platform because...

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the best service to humanity, to raise them from gross ignorance of animal life. This is best service. People are in gross ignorance of animal life, and Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to raise him from that animal life to spiritual life. That is the best service.

Guest (2): Prabhupāda? Is Kṛṣṇa right here in the room?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Don't you see Kṛṣṇa there? [laughter]

Guest (2): When I'm looking at the picture, is Kṛṣṇa right here?

Prabhupāda: Whether you look or not look, He's there. If you have got some eye disease, you cannot see. But He is there.

Dr. Sharma: Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg. 18.61].

Prabhupāda: Hṛd-deśe, He is within your heart. He is within atom. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham [Bs. 5.35]. But you have no eyes to see Him. Otherwise, Kṛṣṇa is everywhere. Therefore those who are on the first-class platform of devotional service, they see everywhere Kṛṣṇa. Sthāvara-jaṅgama dekhe, nā dekhe tāra mūrti, sarvatra haya nija iṣṭa-deva-sphūrti [Cc. Madhya 8.274]. He's seeing to the tree, but he's not seeing the tree; he's seeing Kṛṣṇa. That is a difference. Sthāvara-jaṅgama dekhe, nā dekhe tāra mūrti, sarvatra sphūrti. He sees this tree, how it is Kṛṣṇa's energy, how it is acting. He studies all things as he has studied in the Bhagavad-gītā. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. Sadaiva, on account of his love... That is a very commonsense. If you love somebody, wherever you are, you are seeing your lover, "When I shall meet him? Where he is? What he is doing?" That was the gopīs' business. Kṛṣṇa was on the pasturing ground, and gopīs are crying at home that "Kṛṣṇa's foot is so soft, and He is walking in the fields barefooted. How many, these crags, pricking Him?" In this way thinking, thinking, they were crying. [guest leaves] Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.14].

Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you say in your books so many times that somehow or other we have fallen into this material world due to our enviousness or our independence.

Prabhupāda: Many. There are many reasons.

Devotee (4): I can't seem to get a grasp on this at all. If we in our original constitutional position as part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and in that position, that original position of full knowledge and full bliss and being in our eternal nature... I now have some experience of how strong this material energy is and how māyā works somewhat, but if I had known this and had this full knowledge, then I would have had this knowledge of how māyā works and how I might fall.

Prabhupāda: You read the life of Jaya-Vijaya, Hiraṇyakaśipu, Hiraṇyākṣa? They were Kṛṣṇa's doorkeepers. How they fell down? Did you read it? Did you read the life of Hiraṇyakaśipu or Hiraṇyākṣa?

Devotee (4): Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So how they did fall? They are from Vaikuṇṭha. They are Kṛṣṇa's personal associates, keeping the doorkeepers. How they fell down?

Vipina: How did they fall down?

Devotee (4): Went in the family of Hiraṇyakaśipu?

Prabhupāda: Anyway, there is chance of falling down at any moment.

Devotee (4): Well, in his family they wanted to enjoy the material world.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So because we are living entity, we are not as powerful as Kṛṣṇa, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuṇṭha at any moment. Icchā-dveṣa samutthena sarge yānti parantapa. [aside:] Find out this verse.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Icchā-dveṣa samutthena?

icchā-dveṣa samutthena
dvandva-mohena bhārata
sarva-bhūtāni sammohaṁ
sarge yānti parantapa

"O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate."

Prabhupāda: Purport.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Purport = "The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to the Supreme Lord, who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded into separation from this pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by illusory energy and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The illusory energy is manifested in the duality of desire and hate. Due to desire and hate the ignorant person wants to become one with the Supreme Lord and envies Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Pure devotees, who are not so deluded or contaminated by desire and hate, can understand that Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa appears by His internal potencies. But those who are deluded by duality and nescience think that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is created by material energies. This is their misfortune. Such deluded persons symptomatically dwell in dualities of dishonor and honor, misery and happiness, woman and man, good and bad, pleasure and pain, etc., thinking, 'This is my wife, this is my house; I am the master of this house, I am the husband of this wife.' These are the dualities of delusion. Those who are so deluded by dualities are completely foolish and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

Prabhupāda: So even in the Vaikuṇṭha, if I desire that "Why shall I serve Kṛṣṇa? Why not become Kṛṣṇa?" I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that "If I could become the master." They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he's wrongly thinking.

Vipina: Why doesn't Kṛṣṇa protect us from that desire?

Prabhupāda: He's protecting. He says, "You rascal, don't desire. Surrender unto Me." But you are rascal, you do not do this.

Vipina: Why doesn't He save me from thinking like that?

Prabhupāda: That means you lose your independence.

Vipina: And no love.

Prabhupāda: That is force. [indistinct] prema. In Bengali it is said, "If you catch one girl or boy, 'You love me, you love me, you love me.' " Is it love? [laughter] "You love me, otherwise I will kill you." [laughter] Is that love? So Kṛṣṇa does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver, "You love Me, otherwise I shall kill you." That is not love, that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then there is love; not by force. That is rape. The... Why one is called lover, another is called rape?

Vipina: But isn't it by force anyway? If we don't love Kṛṣṇa, we suffer.

Prabhupāda: That is your business. You'll suffer. But that Kṛṣṇa does not force you. He says the real, "You love Me, you'll be happy. If you don't love, you suffer." But that is your business.

Vipina: So what is the choice?

Prabhupāda: Choice is yours. If you are rascal, you don't make the choice, the best choice, you suffer. The rascals, they suffer. And intelligent men, they do not suffer. If you are intelligent, then Kṛṣṇa says that "You surrender to Me," you surrender, then you are intelligent. If you are rascal, then you reject and you suffer. When a father says to his rascal son, "My dear son, you just hear me. Do like this, you'll be happy." If he does not do it, he'll suffer. There is no other alternative.

Guest (2): But Prabhupāda, why is the material world made on the level of a jailhouse? It's made on the level of a jailhouse, that, I've been told, the attitude of a jail instead of the attitude of you want to enjoy yourself.

Prabhupāda: Yes, because there will be so many criminals. Therefore government has to construct a jailhouse. It is government's not desire. It is expensive, unnecessary. But because there are rascals who will become criminal, the government has jailhouse. So one who wants to remain independent of Kṛṣṇa, for them there is material world, "All right, you remain here."

Vipina: We also say that Kṛṣṇa is fulfilling the desires of every living entity. So if we want to enjoy independent of Kṛṣṇa, why doesn't He let us really enjoy independent of Him?

Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is māyā it is called. You are not enjoyer, you are servant. Because you are willing to become enjoyer, you suffer, that's all. You are not enjoyer.

Vipina: Then He's not fulfilling the desire.

Prabhupāda: No, you wanted to enjoy---enjoy at your risk. Sometimes you'll become the king of heaven, and sometimes you become the germs of the stool.

Vipina: Hmm, enjoy at your risk. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that is the fact.

Vipina: Instead of under His protection, you enjoy at your risk.

Prabhupāda: Therefore He advises, "Rascal, you give up all this enjoying spirit. You just surrender to Me, you'll be happy." But we don't accept it. Therefore sometimes we are in the heavenly kingdom, sometimes as a worm in the stool. That is going on. That is your risk. What is that? Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpāḥ?

yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra
loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ
yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo
mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ
bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā
te pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:

...loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ
tad-arthaṁ karma kaunteya
mukta-saṅgaḥ samācara

"Work done as a sacrifice for Viṣṇu has to be performed, otherwise work binds one to this material world. Therefore, O son of Kuntī, perform your prescribed duties for His satisfaction, and in that way you will remain always unattached and free from bondage."

Prabhupāda: Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. I think there you will find.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bhuṅkte stena eva saḥ? No? Oh, bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpāḥ?

yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo
mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ
bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā
ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt

"The devotees of the Lord are released from all kinds of sins because they eat food which is offered first for sacrifice. Others, who prepare food for personal sense enjoyment, verily eat only sin."

Prabhupāda: Therefore in the Vedic literature, even those who are meat-eaters, they are advised to sacrifice an animal before the deity Goddess Kālī, not purchased from the slaughterhouse. That is a kind of yajña, paśumedha-yajña. That is for low-class men. But still, because he's performing the yajña, he's less sinful.

Guest (3): Your Grace, may I ask a question? Before, I asked about a man not knowing what his duty was, and you spoke of the highest duty of giving up all to Kṛṣṇa and becoming detached from the fruits of your action. But suppose the question is = What shall I become---a shopkeeper, a teacher, a carpenter?

Prabhupāda: In any condition, you can surrender yourself to Kṛṣṇa. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya.

Guest (3): Yes, but it sounds like it doesn't matter what I do as long as I dedicate my action to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Therefore you require spiritual master to guide you.

Guest (3): So I cannot know myself.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible.

Guest (3): And intuition does not help.

Prabhupāda: Intuition is wrong. It is a practice. A thief thinks, "I should steal." His intuition says. He's practiced to steal, and intuition says, "You steal." That is not guide. Intuition means that things which you are practiced, that's all. You are accustomed, that's all.

Guest (3): How does a man find out what his duty is?

Prabhupāda: Duty is... The śāstra is there. Bhagavad-gītā is there. The Bible is there. So follow.

Guest (3): Whether a man should be a shopkeeper or a teacher or a carpenter, the Bible won't tell me that, and the Bhagavad-gītā won't tell me that.

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā is there, the four divisions of human society = brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. So each one's duty is prescribed. Brāhmaṇa's duty, kṣatriya's duty, vaiśya's duty, śūdra's duty, brahmacārī's duty, everything is there.

Guest (3): But then you said before that if I think I'm brahmacārī, then I should be a brahmacārī. If I become a śūdra, I act as a śūdra.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you act as a brahmacārī, you do your brahmacārī work, you'll be successful.

Guest (3): But how do I know that I am thinking properly?

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say it is mentioned in the śāstra, brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dānto guror hitam [SB 7.12.1]. If you want to be a lawyer, you must know the law. Without knowing the law, how you become a lawyer? Without knowing the engineering art, how you become engineer? So either you become a brahmacārī, gṛhastha or vānaprastha, sannyāsī or anything, you must know what you are meant for. Without knowing, how you can become brahmacārī?

Guest (3): I must know what I am meant for.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (3): But that's what my question is. How does one know...?

Prabhupāda: Then you have to go to the... Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Just like we are discussing that Sanātana Gosvāmī, he has gone to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He said, "Sir, You have brought me from the entanglement of family life. Now tell me what is my duty." So that discussion is going on. So you should approach guru and take instruction from him what is..., how to act. If you want to act as a brahmacārī, he'll give you direction, "You do this." If you want to act as a gṛhastha, he'll give you direction, "You do like this." That is wanted. The guru, the parents, the government, they should guide.

Guest (3): But it says that if I follow another person's occupation, even if I do it better than my own occupation, that is not as good as following what I ought to be doing.

Prabhupāda: If you are unfit for that occupation, why should you imitate, waste your time?

Guest (3): Yeah. And since I don't want to waste my time...

Prabhupāda: If you are..., you are fit for becoming a carpenter, why should you imitate a brāhmaṇa? Better be expert carpenter and serve Kṛṣṇa with the result of carpentry work. Then there is perfection. Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam.

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā
svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya
saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam

So suppose you are a carpenter. You earn something. So out of that your income, you offer something to Kṛṣṇa. If, even you are poor man, you can bring some fruit or flower to Kṛṣṇa = "Kṛṣṇa, I am poor man, I can't give You anything more. But I have secured this fruit and flower. Kindly accept it." Kṛṣṇa says, "Yes." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati tad aham aśnāmi [Bg. 9.26]. So where is the difficulty? Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya [Vedānta-saṅgraha]. You remain a carpenter, but you worship Kṛṣṇa. That is not a very difficult job, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam.

Guest (3): But here in this country we have choices.

Prabhupāda: In this country or that country, there is no such distinction. This patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam, any country you can get it. You cannot say in America there is no patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam; in India only. No. Everywhere it is available. Therefore this general prescription is there. Even Kṛṣṇa does not say gaṅgā-jala. Because Gaṅgā, if you say gaṅgā-jala, that is available in India. He says toyam, any jala, any water. Because any water, as soon as touches the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, it becomes Gaṅgā. Why Gaṅgā is so adored? Because it is coming from the toes of Kṛṣṇa. So any water touching Kṛṣṇa's toes, that becomes Gaṅgā.

Vipina: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if we're born each with a qualification, how is this qualification developed in our early years? How is it known?

Prabhupāda: There is no question of developing any particular qualification. Whatever qualification you are, if you agree to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that is the best qualification. It doesn't matter what material qualification you have. It doesn't matter. You simply acquire this qualification, that "From this day I fully surrender to Kṛṣṇa." That everyone can do. Is there any difficulty? Simply he must agree, this qualification. That depends on him, agree or not agree. If you agree, then you become qualified. If you don't agree, you remain disqualified. But that is intelligence. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. After many, many births of struggle, one who is fully in knowledge, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān. Not the foolish. Foolish person cannot. But vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. You can become immediately mahātmā by surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. That is intelligence. Why shall I wait for many, many births to become a mahātmā? Let me surrender immediately and become. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ bhajanty ananya-manasaḥ [Bg. 9.13]---chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, become a mahātmā. It is not very difficult. You can become mahātmā immediately, within a second. But the disease is that you'll not agree to Kṛṣṇa. That is the dangerous disease.

Dr. Sharma: When you say surrender, it means surrender of fruits of the action?

Prabhupāda: No, surrender your life. That includes surrender of fruits and everything. Surrender your life.

Dr. Sharma: Surrender He uses many places, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam [Bg. 9.26], karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana [Bg. 2.47].

Prabhupāda: Yes, but that is not surrender. When you keep yourself in your so-called duty, that recommendation is there. But when you fully surrender, there is no more karma; everything is bhakti. And because you do not surrender, therefore He is recommending that you do your karma like this. But as soon as you surrender, you are above karma. Sa guṇān sama-tītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya, you are brahma-bhūtaḥ. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54]. So long you do not surrender, He is linking your activities with Kṛṣṇa consciousness = "You do like this." Then one day you'll be able to surrender. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja, he wanted the kingdom better than his father, grandfather. So he had to undergo so much severe austerities. He got Kṛṣṇa. But when he got Kṛṣṇa, he said, svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varam: "I don't want any benediction." So this position you can attain any moment = "My Lord, I surrender unto You. I don't want anything from You. Kindly give me shelter at Your lotus feet." This is the result of greatest tapasya. And Kṛṣṇa gives you protection. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati [Bg. 9.31]. So that is the highest perfection of life, to surrender to God without any reservations. Then life is perfect.

Vipina: Prabhupāda, even if a person is not willing to hear spiritual knowledge, when you come and speak, a person, you know, can develop some faith in Kṛṣṇa, or God. So why doesn't Kṛṣṇa come and make it easy?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa has already come. When I am speaking, Kṛṣṇa is there. But you have no eyes to see.

Vipina: All right, but we don't have any..., someone may not have eyes to see who you are, they might not be willing, but when you come...

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's word are not different. If you find it different, then you have no eyes to see. Kṛṣṇa is absolute. When I quote Kṛṣṇa's word, that means Kṛṣṇa.

Vipina: But everyone sees it as different.

Prabhupāda: Because he is a rascal. He has to become a sane man, then he will see. It requires tapasya. It is not so easy. That is called sahajiyā. Why you want such exalted things so easily? Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's words, they are the same. Vāco vācaḥ.[?] The same thing. Why you are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? If Kṛṣṇa's name and Kṛṣṇa is not the same, then what is the use of wasting time? Hmm? What is that? Abhinnatvān nāma-nāminoḥ.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Nāma cintāmaṇiḥ kṛṣṇaś?

Prabhupāda: Ah,

nāma cintāmaṇiḥ kṛṣṇaś
pūrṇaḥ śuddho nitya-mukto
'bhinnatvān nāma-nāminoḥ

[Cc. Madhya 17.133]

This is the realization of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, when you understand that nāma cintāmaṇiḥ kṛṣṇaḥ, this name, Kṛṣṇa, is Kṛṣṇa. That is the perfection of chanting. Nāma cintāmaṇiḥ kṛṣṇaś caitanya-rasa-vigrahaḥ. Full representation or full Kṛṣṇa. Pūrṇaḥ śuddho nitya-mukto 'bhinnatvāt, Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's anything. Just like we are worshiping Kṛṣṇa. If you think this is a statue of Kṛṣṇa, it is different from Kṛṣṇa, then you are not worshiping properly. He is Kṛṣṇa. Arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-mati [Padma Purāṇa], these are instructions. So anyway, we may be in the imperfect stage of devotional service, but if you follow the instruction, then gradually you come to the perfectional stage. There is no hopelessness. Continue. It is not that immediately one becomes perfect. But if you continue with the process, then you'll become perfect.

Guest (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was twenty-seven years old and I learned about God through Jesus. I was twenty-seven. For thirty-five years I thought I had a relation with... [break] ...member, and through your knowledge that you are writing... I'm a servant of the government right now, and will it take more love of Kṛṣṇa for me to be a devotee, or what...?

Prabhupāda: No, you can become a devotee even if you are a government servant. It does not hamper.

Guest (2): So I can hear, and I can chant, and I can pray, and I can serve, and I can do all those, and still...

Prabhupāda: You become a devotee. Any material condition does not hamper your devotional life. Ahaituky apratihatā [SB 1.2.6]. If any condition of life you remain a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, that is success.

Devotee (4): Must initiation be there, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Initiation must be there. Otherwise, how you'll be guided? But it is not necessary, but if you can cent percent engagement in Kṛṣṇa, that is better. Just like Sanātana Gosvāmī, he was a minister, so he resigned and became cent percent servitor of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. But if it is not possible, it does not hamper.

Guest (2): But I can retire in twenty days, and if that is possible, then I can make one more good step.

Prabhupāda: Yes, oh, yes. So twenty days you are going. That means compulsory retirement?

Vipina: Compulsory retirement?

Prabhupāda: Or you are voluntary?

Guest (2): No, my... I can retire or not retire. I can work until eight more years as a servant of the government. And at the same time...

Prabhupāda: Don't retire sentimentally. Yes. Don't retire.

Guest (2): But through Kṛṣṇa's love I can retire and...

Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but not sentimentally.

Woman guest (2): Could you... Do you think you could explain to me about the Deities and how it's different from idol worship? Because no one has been able to explain that to my understanding.

Prabhupāda: Idol means your imaginary. And Deity is not imaginary. Deity is installed by the authorized person and it is worshiped according to authorized methods. So it is not idol. Idol worship, you imagine something and you, some doll or idol, and do in your own way, that is idol worship.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: She's saying but it's manufactured; it's made, graven.

Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. But it is made according to the Vedic principles. Just like in the Vedas, Kṛṣṇa's form is described, veṇuṁ kvaṇantam aravinda-dalāyatākṣam [Bs. 5.30]. Kṛṣṇa is playing on His flute, veṇuṁ kvaṇantam. His eyes are like the petals of the lotus flower. So if you follow the description, then it is coming from the Vedic literature or Vedic knowledge. It is not that an artistic way of imagining some idol, the eyes are like this and He must play flute. It is not like that.

Woman guest (2): That's because it came from scriptures instead of from men's minds.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore it is authorized. When you take anything from the statute, book, that is law. And if you manufacture something, that is not law. Just like, I'll give you one very good example. Just like in your front of your house there is U.S. letterbox. So another man, he sees that the box is in front of his house, "Why shall I go so far? Let me manufacture a box here." So he's posting. After six months, he'll see all these letters are lying there. [laughter] And one who is posting that authorized box, his letter is going to thousands and thousands of miles away. So you cannot imitate. If you imitate U.S. letterbox in front of your house and post your letters, it will never go; it will remain there.

Guest (4): Your Grace? I don't understand how it can be all right for a person to lie, even if he is a shopkeeper or a diplomat.

Prabhupāda: But if you cannot do business without speaking lies, you have to do it. What can be done?

Guest (4): You can do business without speaking lies---you just don't make so much money.

Prabhupāda: That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā. What is that? Sa-doṣam api na tyajet [Bg. 18.48]. Even your profession is infected with so many faults, you don't agree with it, don't give it up. He's giving the example = the fire is so nice, purify, still there is smoke. So in the material world, whatever you do, there will be some fault. If you want faultless action, that is not possible. Therefore we cannot give up your occupational duty even there are some faults. Sa-doṣam api na tyajet.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:

śreyān sva-dharmo viguṇaḥ
para-dharmāt svanuṣṭhitāt
svabhāva-niyataṁ karma
kurvan nāpnoti kilbiṣam

Is that...? "It is better to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly."

Prabhupāda: No, another. Sa-doṣam api na tyajet [Bg. 18.48].

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sa-doṣam api na tyajet. Next verse.

Prabhupāda: Hmm, what is that verse?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Saha-jaṁ karma kaunteya.

Prabhupāda: Ah, saha-jaṁ karma kaunteya. You are carpenter, do it. Don't try to become a goldsmith, because you cannot do that. Remain a carpenter.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:

sa-doṣam api na tyajet
sarvārambhā hi doṣeṇa
dhūmenāgnir ivāvṛtāḥ

Prabhupāda: Anything you do, there is some fault. Even fire, there is smoke. Better in a particular type of occupation in which you are expert, do that, but with the result you serve Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Sharma: Swāmījī, it says also that having come to the material world---I have forgotten the verse---you cannot be without action, He says to Arjuna.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Material world means you must act, then you can live. Otherwise you will die.

Dr. Sharma: Also, since every action has some fault, we will be always doing some fault.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So in spite of fault, you must act.

Dr. Sharma: There are two choices, either to surrender to God...

Prabhupāda: Surrender to God, there is no fault. That is the highest faultless action. And so long you do not surrender, anything you do there is fault. Anything you eat... That is stated:

yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo
mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ
bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā
ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt

Even if you prepare vegetable, not meat, still you are sinful. It is not that those who are meat-eaters, they are only sinful, and you are eating vegetable, you are not sinful. No. Anything you cook for yourself without being offered to the Deity or Kṛṣṇa, you are sinful. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt. Now, pacanti, you may do whatever you like to eat, but if it is not prasādam, then you are sinful. It is not the question of... Sometimes they mistake the vegetable is good, meat is not good. May be, comparative. But either vegetable or meat, if you simply cook it for your tongue's satisfaction, then it is sinful. And if you offer to Kṛṣṇa, maybe only little patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam [Bg. 9.26], not very gorgeous, palatable dishes, and if you eat that, then bhuñjate, again. Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ, he becomes free from all sinful reactions. As there is sin in cutting the throat of an animal, similarly, there is sin in destroying a vegetable. May be more or less sinful, but it is sinful.

Mr. Boyd: We can even offer a drink of water to Kṛṣṇa before we drink it, can't we?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You can think of Kṛṣṇa. That is stated.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Raso 'ham apsu?

Prabhupāda: Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ [Bg. 7.8]. When you drink water, you drink water for some taste, nice taste to quench your thirst. So that taste is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya. Apsu does not mean only water. Suppose you are drinking, so you are getting some pleasure by the taste of the drinking, and if you think that this taste is Kṛṣṇa, then gradually you'll give up this drinking, because you'll be purified by thinking of Kṛṣṇa. So some way or other think of Kṛṣṇa and your life is successful. Yena tena prakāreṇa manaḥ kṛṣṇe niveśayet [Brs. 1.2.4]. So the process is given, you can think of Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours if you practice. Who can avoid drinking water? At least twice, thrice, we drink water, and if we think the taste is Kṛṣṇa... Prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ. Who can avoid seeing the sunshine and moonshine? As soon as you see the sunshine and the moonshine, if we think, "Here is Kṛṣṇa. The sunshine is Kṛṣṇa." So this thinking of Kṛṣṇa, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā [Bg. 6.47], he is first-class yogī who is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa in every step of life. That is first-class yogī. He does not see anything except Kṛṣṇa. And the process is there. If we adopt, we can think of Kṛṣṇa. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.14]. It is not difficult, simply it requires practice. [sound of thunder] Śabdaḥ khe pauruṣaṁ nṛṣu [Bg. 7.8]. Now this sound in the sky, that is recommended, that the sound in the sky, Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the sound." So you can think of Kṛṣṇa as soon as there is sound. Not only this sound; when the airplane goes, drurururururu, that is also Kṛṣṇa. The practice. It doesn't require much learning, much education; simply take the words of Kṛṣṇa and he becomes a vast, learned person. Kṛṣṇa is giving all instruction. [sound of thunder] And actually, that is Kṛṣṇa. You cannot create such sound. It is Kṛṣṇa's management that there is sound while the cloud is rolling by air.

Guest (3): Prabhupāda, here in the Western world, we're so caught up in sense enjoyment.

Prabhupāda: We do not speak of Western world or Eastern world, we speak for all world. What we are speaking, that is for all world, not Western or Eastern. There is no such thing in the teachings of Kṛṣṇa. He never says that it is meant for the Eastern or Western. He says, sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ [Bg. 14.4]. For everyone.

Guest (4): Your Grace, how is it that the devotees who run the great temple of Jagannātha refuse to allow foreigners and certain low-caste people, when this was the favorite place of Lord Caitanya, who, like you say, advocated that it should be taught in every town and village?

Prabhupāda: Jagannātha Purī?

Guest (4): Are these administrators fallen?

Prabhupāda: What is...?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's asking why can't your disciples from the West in particular, who are low-class, particular people, like the Muhammadans, as traditional, they are not allowed in the Jagannātha Purī temple.

Prabhupāda: That is their fault. They should not have done so. That is their..., what is called? Sectarian prejudice.

Guest (4): Was that the policy when Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura ran the temple? I understand that he at one time was the main administrator. [loud crashing of thunder]

Prabhupāda: So you don't take simply Jagannātha temple. There are many other temples, they allow. It is a particular management body, they do not allow. But that is not the sanction of the śāstra. That is not the sanction. Suppose in your private house you make some private law. That is your business. But actually temple is open for everyone. That is stated. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ [Bg. 9.32]. Even one is born of low-grade family, he can accept. There is no injunction. That is śāstra. But there are rascals who do not follow. They have their own imagination. That is another thing. Kṛṣṇa never said that "Only the brāhmaṇas or Indians or Hindus can take shelter of Me." Kṛṣṇa never said. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ: whatever he may be. There is no restriction. Just like Ganges water, anyone can take bath. It is not that only a particular person or particular community can take bath in the Ganges. Anyone can take, and he becomes purified. There is an example, na hi harate jyotsnā candraś caṇḍāla veśmani.[?] When there is moonlight, there is no discrimination that "Here is a bhaṅgi's house, caṇḍāla's house, there should be no moonshine." The moonshine is open in the palace of the king or in the house of a caṇḍāla, na hi harate jyotsnā candraś caṇḍāla veśmani. So Kṛṣṇa's mercy is for everyone. It is not restricted to a certain community or class of people. No. Anyone can take advantage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And that is, practically they are doing. Therefore in India, so they say that I am killing Hindu dharma, the Māyāvādīs, that "Bhaktivedanta Swami hindu-dharma ka naṣṭa." This is their...

Dr. Sharma: That is not true.

Prabhupāda: But they are saying like that. This Karpathadaji[?] and others, they are against me.

Dr. Sharma: Mūḍha-mate.

Prabhupāda: But they are big, big men. What can be done? Here also, Christians are not very happy on me. And there, Hindus are not happy. So where shall I go? [laughter] I cannot stay here, neither in India. This is my position. Neither in my temple. This is my position. Nor India, nor America, nor Europe, nor any place. So nārada muni bhajaya vīṇā. [laughter]

Dr. Sharma: Sarva-bhūtānām.

Prabhupāda: No, I have no, I mean to say, grudge against. If Kṛṣṇa wants... In old age I was living a retired life in Vṛndāvana. He asked me, "Get out, go to America." So I came. At the age of seventy years, actually nobody goes out of home. But Kṛṣṇa asked me, "Get out and go." So I came. And although I have got the best temple in Vṛndāvana, I cannot live there.


Prabhupāda: But a fighting soldier is honored by the government. He maybe dies, he is recognized by the government, "Here is a soldier, laid down his life by fighting." So we prefer that life. We shall die fighting with māyā.

Devotees: Jaya.

Dr. Sharma: It is said in śāstra that it is better to go and find salvation for others than to find salvation for yourself.

Prabhupāda: One who seeks salvation for others, he's already salvation.

Devotees: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, how can he arrange salvation for others? So he hasn't got to seek for salvation.

Dr. Sharma: How these devotees are finding salvation for others?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That means they are already in the platform of salvation.

Dr. Sharma: And through them, you are working for the salvation of others.

Prabhupāda: Janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41], that is the injunction, that first of all you become perfect, then try to make others perfect. So anyone is actually trying to do perfection for others, he is already perfect.

Dr. Sharma: These devotees are working for the salvation for everyone.

Prabhupāda: He's already perfect. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. The one who's trying for others' salvation... That is a devotee's business. Ordinary man cannot do it. Because he's doing that, it is to be understood that he's already on the platform of... Because salvation means to remain in his own position. Muktir hitvānyathā-rūpaṁ svarūpeṇa avasthitiḥ [SB 2.10.6]. Svarūpa is to serve God. So if one is serving on behalf of God, then he's in svarūpa mukti. Others are acting for his own benefit, but a devotee is acting for others' benefit. Therefore he's already on the platform of liberation.

Guest (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, should I have resigned my membership with the Christian organization? Should I have? I did. Could I serve Kṛṣṇa just as well and also through a Christian? I don't see how I could.

Prabhupāda: [chuckling] No, we don't say like that. Christian, actually one who is Christian, he's as good as Vaiṣṇava. A Christian means he recognizes God is great. So we also accept God is great. Where is the difference? God is great in all circumstances. So if anyone accepts God is great, that is perfect.

Guest (2): That's what the church board said to me. They said, "You believe in Kṛṣṇa, we believe in God. Why do you go? What's superior?" I feel that your knowledge is superior.

Prabhupāda: The thing is that sometimes we Indians come to Western countries for better education. The university in India or the university in U.S. or in Europe is the same, but why does he go after Indian university education to foreign university? Why does he go?

Guest (2): Superior.

Prabhupāda: That's it. God is there; the dictionary is there. Sometimes pocket dictionary, sometimes big national encyclopedia dictionary. The Christians, they have no idea what is God. They believe in God, but if you ask them what is God, who is God, they cannot say. But we can say. That is the difference.

Woman guest (2): Is it not as good to serve...

Prabhupāda: So if you want more knowledge about God, then you must come to Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (2): That's how I believe.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Woman guest (2): Is it not as good to serve God as a Christian in a church?

Prabhupāda: That is I have already explained, that you serve God in any position, but if you want to know about God more, then you have to come here. Now ask any Christian what is God, who is God, what is His form, what He is doing. Can he answer? Nobody can answer. He knows God is great. How great He is, who is that God, they cannot answer. To some extent it is all right, but if you want to know full extent, then you have to come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "Two plus two is equal to four" is mathematics, but if you want to know higher mathematics, you have to go some higher college. "Two plus two" is also mathematics, is it not? Everyone knows two plus two equal to four. So when you go to higher university, that "two plus two" does not change, but you know more about it. Because one has gone to higher university, the previous education, "two plus two," has changed, it is not that. But as a Christian you understand God is great, "two plus two," but how He is great, that you have to learn in the Vedas. That is real education. Because you do not know how He is great, therefore you do so many sinful activities. Otherwise, how it is possible to maintain slaughterhouse? Christian doctrine says, "Thou shall not kill." But he does not understand; therefore his business has become to kill only. This is the defect. Why you are disobeying the orders of Christ, "Thou shall not kill"? Because you do not understand him properly.

Guest (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, when we don't eat meat in the...

Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say...

Guest (2): We didn't know why we didn't. But now I know why, because the animal is a living entity.

Prabhupāda: No, God says, "Everyone is My son."

Vipina: But in the Bible, they don't accept that the animals and certain living entities are eternal, are going to go back to God.

Prabhupāda: They may believe, but that is another thing. You may believe something blindly. Come to philosophy, come to science. Because you believe something, it is a fact---that is not...

Vipina: But they base that belief on their scripture.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Vipina: The Bible.

Prabhupāda: No, what is that belief?

Vipina: [to guest:] Can you explain it? That there are certain people, they'll be resurrected from the dead at the time of the coming of the Lord, and others will not, or something?

Guest (2): Well, from my knowledge, I never knew that anyone but the human being would be resurrected. Now that's a point where the animals will be resurrected. I didn't know that.

Prabhupāda: Animals? So what is that?

Hari-śauri: They think that transmigration only applies to human beings. Or in fact they don't even accept transmigration. They think that you've just got one lifetime.

Prabhupāda: Why? Transmigration for everyone. The Darwin's theory, evolution, it is like that, transmigration. The living soul is changing body, that's a fact. We can experience in our own life. The child is changing body to boyhood. The boy is changing his body to youthhood. So therefore it's a fact. The living entity is there within the body, and the body is changed. This simple truth they cannot understand. When a child grows up to become a boy, so what is the change? The change is body. But everyone knows the same child has become boy. Is it not? What do you think?

Guest (2): Well, when you leave this planet you go to sleep.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that is another thing. Study, that a child is grown to become a boy; he has changed his body. Does it mean the living entity who was in the child's body is different from the living entity within the boy?

Guest (2): No difference.

Prabhupāda: Therefore it is a fact that the living entity is eternal and the body is changed. So where is the difficulty to understand this?

Vipina: They can understand it, but their scripture doesn't accept reincarnation. Therefore...

Prabhupāda: Therefore you should give up your philosophy and science. That "Because my scripture does not allow me to become educated, I shall remain a fool." [laughter] What is this?

Guest (2): A beautiful example is where a caterpillar will be..., a cocoon will form over a caterpillar, and when the cocoon breaks, it's a butterfly.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, transmigration.

Guest (2): The living entity changed bodies.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is common sense. If they cannot understand this commonsense affair, then how they are educated?

Dr. Sharma: Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya [Bg. 2.22].

Prabhupāda: Yes. Common sense. And we are practically experiencing. When the child has grown to become a young man, the mother does not cry, "Oh, my child is gone, my child is gone." She knows, she knows that "Here is my child. Simply he has changed his body." So this is a fact, that we are changing bodies but we are eternal. This is the conclusion. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. So unless one is properly educated, where is the talk of advancing? So this is the beginning of spiritual education, to understand that the living entity is eternal and the body is changing. And then next question will be that if the body is changing, then this body will be changed, so after my death what kind of body I am going to accept? That is education. That is education. And if I remain blind, I do not care, and next life I become a dog, then what is the value of my present education? In spite of all education, next life I am going to become a dog or tree, then what is the value of my education? That education is not. Throughout the whole world, perhaps we are giving this education. Throughout the whole world, find out any institution or university where this education is given. No. Simply big, big talks. And you talk something nonsense and take laureate, Nobel Laureate. That's all. It is going on. Somebody is talking nonsense that life is produced from matter, from chemicals, and if we challenge, "All right, combine some matter in egg form and bring life," that rascal will say, "No, it will take millions of years." And if the bird is giving life in five days, why you are taking doctorate title? Give the chicken doctorate title. The rascals are simply bluffing the people. This is going on in the name of education. Can anyone produce life by combination of chemicals? And these rascals are advertising. We challenge, "All right, not very big thing. Egg, you can see there is some white substance and yellow substance, and you are very big scientist, you find out what are the chemicals and combine it and put it under the legs of the chicken or in the incubator and bring life. Otherwise, why you are talking nonsense and cheating people?" Not only cheating people; people are becoming godless. Everything is science. And the science is this, cheating, that life can be produced by chemicals.

Dr. Sharma: The problem is the definition of life. It has not yet been defined, and the definition of life accepted by them is not the real definition of life.

Prabhupāda: The definition of life they have given = resistance. If you want to come to kill me, I resist. That is life. Everyone knows it.

Hari-śauri: [whispering] Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's a quarter to nine.

Prabhupāda: That is life. If I want to cut this table, it will not resist. But if you want to kill me, I'll resist. That is life. Where is the difficulty?

Dr. Sharma: No, the way we understand, there is no difficulty. The way scientists understand there is a lot of difficulty.

Prabhupāda: What is that scientist? What is their definition? What do they say?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Svarūpa Dāmodara?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Life is a... They say the question "What is life?" should not be inquired. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: Ah, that is... You keep yourself in darkness. You remain fool. That is scientific. So long you remain a rascal, it is scientific. This is their...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say it is unscientific question.

Prabhupāda: And because they cannot answer it, bobā śatru naya. In Bengali, if one is dumb, he has no enemy, but he cannot speak anything. Tāvac śobhate mūrkha yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate. Mūrkha tāvicac śobha[?]. So mūrkha, you remain mūrkha, then that is scientific.

Dr. Sharma: Kapila has said [Sanskrit].

Prabhupāda: So don't ask for life, eh? That is scientific. Do you think it is all right?

Dr. Sharma: No, as a scientist, I don't believe that.

Prabhupāda: Then this is going on. They cannot do anything, and still they are drawing high salary. Especially when they say that life is made of chemicals and they cannot experimentally prove it. How bluffing it is. We say a simple thing, that "Don't talk of big, big life. You just produce from the egg, because egg, you require so many chicken to cut their throat. So produce it from chemical." Why do they not do it? Is anyone to answer this? If life is chemical combination, you see in the egg there is some white substance, some yellow substance, so you analyze and find out what are the chemicals and combine it, and color it yellow and pack up in a cellulose cover, and then put it, bring life. Why they cannot do it? Where is the science? Simply talking big, big words? What do you think? Am I right or wrong?

Mr. Boyd: What do I think? Well, it's very difficult at this particular time. It hasn't been done yet; hasn't been claimed, as you say. And yet we as individuals request them to do that, for some reason, because we're curious.

Prabhupāda: Yes, unless they do that, what is the use? What is the use of your big, big talking?

Vipina: He's thinking that sometime they'll do it in the future.

Prabhupāda: Therefore he should not become scientist. The chicken is doing it within five days. [laughter] You transfer your doctorate, laureate, to the chicken. You are cheating others. Give the title to the chicken.

Guest (2): If and when Kṛṣṇa wants the scientists to come up with the answer, then is when..., only when they'll have the answer. When Kṛṣṇa wants them to have the answer.

Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa has already given to the chicken. [laughter] He's so unfortunate that Kṛṣṇa is not giving him the intelligence. He's so unfortunate. But the fortunate chicken has already got the intelligence. So at least the chicken is fortunate than these so-called scientists. That is our conclusion. He's so unfortunate that he doesn't get the fortune of the chicken. Mūḍho nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam [Bg. 7.25]. He's a mūḍha, rascal. That's all. He's claiming something which is impossible. That is mūḍha. If somebody, if a child, sometimes childish nature, "Mother, give me that moon," it is possible mother can give the moon to the child? So mother cheats him. She gives him a mirror, "You see, here is a mirror, moon here." That's all. But is that moon? So a child may be satisfied with this class of moon, but one who is sane man, his father, will not be satisfied. It is impossible. We give this challenge to any scientist, that "You are unnecessarily, uselessly working to produce life from chemicals." That is our challenge. "You cannot do it." [Hindi with Dr. Sharma]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's almost nine o'clock, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So we challenge the so-called scientists that "You rascal, you cannot do it." It is not possible.

Mr. Boyd: I think that the human nature is so... [break] ...this is ninety-six cents, so why put it back?

Prabhupāda: That's all right, this is one way of studying, but when you have studied the chemicals, combine them and bring a human life. Science means observation and experiment. Simply observing, analyzing that it is a combination of chemi..., that is not perfect science. When you... This is theory. When you practically bring into action, that is called practical... What is called?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Application?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Experimental?

Prabhupāda: No, no, in science there are two con..., theoretical and practical. So theoretical knowledge is no perfect. When you bring it in practical action, then it is science. In the scientific laboratory, they do not simply theorize; they test it in the laboratory. That is science. If you cannot test it by combination of the chemicals which you have analyzed in your..., then it is failure, is it not?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Here is a scientist. You have not studied properly. That is defect. So why defective knowledge you are declaring as knowledge? That is cheating. When you have perfect knowledge, then you declare. That is science.

Mr. Boyd: Then you advocate that Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be practiced in every action that you take.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is practice. Abhyāsa-yoga-yuktena cetasā nānya-gāminā [Bg. 8.8].

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Scientists at the present time, they say like this because their knowledge is simply illusioned.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Real knowledge is covered.

Prabhupāda: Just like this planetary system. So many planets are there. They do not know anything. And they are going to the Mars, they are going to the moon. All bluff. Two things unsolved = they do not know what is life and they do not know what are these planetary system. And still, they are speaking on these two subjects as authority. That is bluff.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we conclude that without understanding the existence of God, these two problems can never be answered.

Prabhupāda: Never be. You hear from God, then you have got perfect knowledge. And if you want to become scientist more than God, then you'll never know it. But their real propaganda is, "There is no God." That is their real propaganda.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the root cause of this illusion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They want to prove, "There is no God. Everything is science." However rascaldom it is, "It is everything." But we are preaching about God. How we can tolerate? We must expose them. That is our business.

Mr. Boyd: There's a saying that's printed on a piece of stationery I get from one of my supply houses of a particular piece of equipment this man designs and sells. And on the bottom he indicates, "Somebody has to lead." And he's in a very controversial field.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is a commonsense philosophy, that the earth is there, everything is coming out of earth. As mother is giving birth to so many children, similarly the earth is giving birth to so many children. So the children are there, the mother is there, and where is the father? But these rascals, they say "Without father." Is it possible for the mother to give children without father?

Mr. Boyd: Not legally. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: Legally or illegally, there must be some father.

Mr. Boyd: I realize that.

Prabhupāda: Illegally or legally, without connection with the father there is no question of children.

Mr. Boyd: But even this is being done artificially nowadays.

Prabhupāda: But artificially means that you accept the principle. So therefore we say that here is mother---land---and here is children---the plants, trees, birds, beasts, human beings. They are all coming from the earth. So mother is there, and the children are there. Then where is the father?

Mr. Boyd: Kṛṣṇa's the father.

Prabhupāda: You cannot say, "No, without father it has come." That is not possible. Then you are talking foolish. There must be father. This is conclusion. So how you can deny God? God is accepted in every religion as the supreme father or something like that, great. And God is there. But they say "Automatically coming" and big, big words. How do they explain? How things are coming from the earth, so many plants?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is by chance.

Prabhupāda: "By chance," just see. Is that explanation? Hmm? If one head is bald-headed, why by chance it does not come again, hair? And these plants and creepers are coming by chance, just see. We have to accept this explanation? [aside:] You sit down. That is for the outsider. So this is explanation by the scientist, "By chance." Just see. How fools they are.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Chance is their instrument of explanation.

Prabhupāda: Just see how they are befooling persons. The law is cause and effect. Nothing is chance. There is cause, and there is effect. It is saying the same thing, that "This girl has produced a child by chance." It is not possible. Any sane man knows that she had connection with man, either legally or illegally. It is not chance. So there can... Nothing can happen as chance. That is imperfect knowledge, wash-out. But we know,

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
a nādir ādir govindaḥ

[Bs. 5.1]

There is no question of chance. There is cause.

So all right. Thank you very much.

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. [end]