Morning Walk , Washington, D.C. , 1976-07-04

[in car = loud tape of "Hare Krishna Happening" Album, with Prabhupāda chanting, playing in background]

Rūpānuga: ...and how we danced at the end? You were dancing with karatālas when you were listening to the record.

Prabhupāda: Now we have got our own studio. We also do. What is his name? Allen?

Rūpānuga: Ginsberg?

Prabhupāda: No, no, no.

Rūpānuga: Oh, Coleman.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Coleman, yes. So last time in India, he gave me twenty-five thousand rupees. [laughs]

Rūpānuga: He did? Wow, twenty-five thousand! He still has the original tape of this record.

Prabhupāda: Let him now do. He wanted to pay me something, but he never paid.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I sent Kṛṣṇa-kānti... He made a..., recorded this in South Africa and printed it. It's not actually legal, but we did it because we didn't think it would... This is the most wonderful record for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because you are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So pure.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Originally.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People can more appreciate Hare Kṛṣṇa than these bhajanas, because they don't understand.

Prabhupāda: Bhajana, they understand... [break] ...Kirtanānanda, you...

Rūpānuga: Brahmānanda.

Prabhupāda: Brahmānanda also?

Rūpānuga: Yes, he's singing. Satsvarūpa. Hayagrīva was there also.

Prabhupāda: Hayagrīva was there.

Rūpānuga: And Jadurāṇī was there. We were playing all kinds of instruments, all kinds of things. [laughs] We were playing bells and sticks.

Prabhupāda: Kīrtanānanda was playing sitar.

Rūpānuga: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And I was playing a broken mṛdaṅga.

Rūpānuga: It was wood. Was it wooden?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think they had that at the New Vrindavan farm.

Rūpānuga: We had borrowed it from an Indian man.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It was a little one-sided drum?

Rūpānuga: No, it was a big, two-sided wooden drum. That was another drum.

Prabhupāda: [indistinct] [break] That was 1966.

Rūpānuga: This record, yes. October, November. November or December, near Christmas. Acyutānanda was there also.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. New Vrindavan.

Rūpānuga: Yes.

[break] [on walk]

Prabhupāda: ...this building?

Vipina: This is the historical building where they have the information about what this place used to be, how it used to function.

Rūpānuga: When it would fill up, then they'd let the boat down inside, from one level down to the next, on down. They were small barges.

Hari-śauri: Very small.

Prabhupāda: This is river?

Rūpānuga: Potomac River.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I was going to ask that this soul, the nature of the soul, we find that...

Prabhupāda: Salt?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, no, the soul, the ātmā, jīva. We get a description that the soul, the size of a soul is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. We were just discussing whether does this imply that it can be measured.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the measurement.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we are claiming that it is nonphysical.

Prabhupāda: No, nonphysical, that doesn't mean it has no measurement. It has measurement.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So measurement... Actually, Sadāputa calculated from how much the size is. Now from electron microscope, actually we can get an idea about the tip of the hair, how much it is. Now you divide it by one ten-thousandth part, so it will come out the size of the soul is about two angstroms, by calculation like that.

Prabhupāda: Two atoms?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, angstroms. Angstrom is the smallest scale that science can imagine. And it is smaller even than the hydrogen atom. So actually it is atomic, it is very small in size.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we were wondering whether that is reasonable.

Prabhupāda: Reasonable? Yes. It is given in Upaniṣads and Padma Purāṇa, authorized.

Rūpānuga: It's just that this one ten-thousandth tip of hair has no material quality. It is nonphysical but still can be measured.

Prabhupāda: Nonphysical... Just like axiomatic truth point has no length, no breadth, but it has length and breadth. You cannot measure it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But does this not imply---one ten-thousandth the size---does that not imply measurement, that it can be measured?

Prabhupāda: Yes, measurement, measurement is there. This is closed?

Vipina: Yes, this is the service road, but up here is a very nice way to look at the waterfall. [break]


śatadhā kalpitasya ca
bhāgo jīvaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ
sa cānantyāya kalpate

[Cc. Madhya 19.140]

In the microbe there is soul. If it is not so small, how in the microbe there can be soul?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it is small.

Prabhupāda: This is the falls?

Devotee: Yes.

Vipina: Man-made waterfalls.

Prabhupāda: Man-made?

Rūpānuga: This is the dam part. The other part, this is man-made dam here. There's other parts where it flows freely.

Prabhupāda: Aeroplanes. [laughter]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Little flies.

Prabhupāda: They can manufacture aeroplanes like this with pilot.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they can manufacture bigger ones.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Do it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Start with little ones.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: What will be the technique to attract the Bengali educational class?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: To attract the Bengalis who are educated, what techniques will be most effective?

Prabhupāda: This kīrtana and prasāda distribution.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But it seems that to me they are not so much interested. There was a man who came from Calcutta about two months ago, a Bengali, and in fact we were class friends in Calcutta when I was studying in Calcutta. And actually I discussed this problem with him, why so-called Bengali intellectuals are not attracted to our movement. And his answer was that the Caitanya movement is mostly for less intellectuals. For those who are educated, they want to be followers of Ramakrishna and Vivekananda. In fact, they have a society called Vedanta Society. All the Bengalis get together...

Prabhupāda: And waste their time. The rascals waste their time.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: And they discuss... So I was a little mad at him, this friend.

Prabhupāda: Because the real fact is they do not want to give up meat-eating and fish-eating. Therefore they like Vivekananda. That is the real reason. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement, Vaiṣṇava, they have to give up so many things. That is the disease of the Bengalis. And Vivekananda is recognized only in Bengal. To some part, not all.

Vipina: There is also a small Vedanta Society here in Washington. I had one of our Indian associates, whom I hope you will be able to meet, go there, and he said they could not even discuss the topics of Bhagavad-gītā. They had no conclusions. They were arguing in their own meeting, and no one had any idea what Bhagavad-gītā was, and so many technical points.

Prabhupāda: The meat-eaters are the most sinful. They cannot understand. Vinā paśughnāt, nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānāt [SB 10.1.4]. They will have no access.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think there must be a fundamental mistake in their outlook.

Prabhupāda: No, their life is a mistake, because they are sinful. Their life is a mistake. Misguided.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This fellow is a chemist, and actually he's very intelligent, and he has read all the Gītās, and he has studied many thoughts on Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Prabhupāda: First of all, we have to talk with them about this = "What is life?" Then they will talk. If they are on the bodily conception of life, they are animals, which is not. First of all, you have to talk with them on this platform, "What is life." Identification.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: To me, my feeling was that they somewhat look down. They look down in their feeling.

Prabhupāda: Look down?

Hari-śauri: They think that they are superior.

Prabhupāda: But you did not talk with him and argue?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I argued.

Prabhupāda: "What is life."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Well, ultimately he has to accept that, our philosophy.

Prabhupāda: They have become less intelligent on account of their bad habits.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This man, there's a Professor Mitra, he's in Emory University in Department of Sociology. They claim he's a Vedāntist, and they have a group. And then this Das, actually his name was Das, he told me that he has Śrīla Prabhupāda's Bhagavad-gītā As It Is and he worships, he recites every day. And he told me that he praises very much, that it's the best Gītā he has seen. So although he's involved in something else, but still he's taking Śrīla Prabhupāda's.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Any man who is reasonable, he'll come. If he's animal, he cannot come. That is the difference. The first charge is that anyone who is in bodily concept of life, he's animal. First of all, refute. If you are thinking that "I am this body," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am American," "I am this," "I am that," then you are animal. This is our first charge. What they will answer? What is the difference? If a dog is thinking "I am dog," and I am thinking "I am Indian" or "American," what is the difference? What is the difference between the dog and the man? That first charge should be answered. Then further questions can be...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So it seems to be that we need some strong preaching in Calcutta, in Bengal. We want to attract some intellectuals from...

Prabhupāda: No, there are many intellectuals. Not that [indistinct].

Svarūpa Dāmodara: My concern here, staying here in Atlanta, there are many Bengali families, but they never come to the temple. There was our Life Member program, and so many prabhus are going to make Life Members, and these Bengalis, they don't even have some respect. That is why I was a little, seeing their [indistinct], I was a little disappointed.

Prabhupāda: Because you will ask them not to eat meat, and that they cannot do. What are these? Crows?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: At our Māyāpur Candrodaya Mandir, though, lakhs of people are coming.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it is, but the common people, ordinary people. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: Because they are godless, they are uncommon. Educated Bengalis, they are spoiled.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. My feeling was they do not want to stop eating meat.

Prabhupāda: That is the only...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think that is the main reason.

Prabhupāda: And Vivekananda says whatever you like, you can eat.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, yata mata tata patha. He said. They claim like this also. They follow like that.

Prabhupāda: Spoiled. Bengalis are spoiled.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Our request is they should join, and they should help us in spreading the mission.

Prabhupāda: Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. They are narādhamas. [break]

[back in car]

Prabhupāda: ...time?

Vipina: Yes, just fifteen, twenty minutes. [end]