Garden Conversation , Detroit , 1976-06-14

Mādhavānanda: ...year. And it rises also very early.

Prabhupāda: Why, in different season, the day is longer and shorter?

Rakṣaṇa: The time that Lord Vivasvān takes to travel across the sky differs.

Prabhupāda: Who travels? You say. Sun is fixed up, they say.

Devotee: According to their theory, it is fixed up.

Prabhupāda: According to our theory... We don't say theory. According to Bhāgavata statement, in this season, the sun runs slow. In the other season, the sun runs fast. That is understandable. But if the sun is fixed up, why in some season it is going fast and some season it is going slow?

Mādhavānanda: Their theory is that because the earth is tilted on an axis, that during the winter season the sun is hitting at a different angle, and therefore it's different time. They say that the earth is rotating also, and the axis is turning from one side to the other, so that north is sometimes...

Prabhupāda: So where is the question of going fast and slow?

Jayādvaita: They say that because the smaller portion of the earth... The earth is spherical, and by the top it's smaller, so when that top side is pointed toward the sun, the sun is..., as the earth turns, the sun is hitting each place sooner in each day. So it's going..., traveling less distance on that surface. Then when it turns the other way, it has to go more distance. Some..., they have some concocted idea. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: [laughing] All concoction. That is not explanation. This is nice explanation, that in this season the sun goes faster and in this season the sun goes slower. That is quite understandable. Just like you are walking. Sometimes you walk slow, sometimes you walk fast. That is possible.


Prabhupāda: So you can convert the down room, one of the down room as reception, like this. This should be Deity room.

Hari-śauri: They'd have to section that big room off, though, then, to make a Deity room there. It would considerably reduce the size of that room.

Prabhupāda: Which room?

Hari-śauri: This big room upstairs? I was just looking, because you mentioned it. But then they'd have to put a section for the Deities, so the actual temple space left would be very small.

Prabhupāda: No, it is bigger hall than the down.

Hari-śauri: It's not very much bigger.

Prabhupāda: I think.

Mādhavānanda: Well, his point is right also that the Deity, actually the space that the Deities take up on the altar is the same exact..., it's actually the same length, but it seems smaller because of the Deity room being excluded in the top portion. But if we section off a space for the Deities, then it would be considerably smaller.

Prabhupāda: You take length and breadth of both. Then we shall...

Mādhavānanda: All right.

Hari-śauri: The advantage downstairs is that they already have that archway section there also in the room behind, but there's not so much facility upstairs.

Prabhupāda: That we can make.

[long pause]

Prabhupāda: I think this part of the year is very nice, June-July? No. June-July, or...?

Mādhavānanda: This is the best.

Prabhupāda: Or May-June-July. How many months?

Mādhavānanda: It begins in the last part of May and it ends at the beginning part of September.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So May, June, July, August, at least four months. Four months.

[long pause]

Jayādvaita: At the college programs, Satsvarūpa Mahārāja and I have been giving a lot of classes on varṇāśrama-dharma. Because they always want to hear something about the Hindu caste system, so they'll take us on that basis. And then we speak about varṇāśrama-dharma. And they don't have any ideas to defeat it. They always, some little weak argument, but they don't have any better system.

Prabhupāda: What is their argument?

Jayādvaita: Hardly... Well, they have some idea. They'll argue that there's no social mobility, because they all have some bodily idea that caste by birth.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not the fact.

Jayādvaita: No.

Prabhupāda: The qualification.

Jayādvaita: When we present the real idea, then they're just sitting there, they have no argument. And then we challenge their system, that "What is the purpose of your society? What is the goal of it?" and they can't say anything.

Prabhupāda: Unless there is division of activity, nothing can be done perfectly well. The natural division is there in the body---the head, the arms, the belly and the legs. Similarly, in the social body also there must be the heads, the intelligent class of men, brāhmaṇa. Then everything will go on smoothly. And at the present moment there is no intelligent class of men. All laborer, worker class of men, fourth class. No first class, second class. Therefore society is in chaotic condition. There is no brain.

Jayādvaita: Their only objection... When we present that there's brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa, then they become automatically hostile, because they understand that we're against sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sense gratification is animal civilization. And sense control is human civ... Sense gratification is not human society. Sense gratification is not human civilization. That they do not know. Their central point is sense gratification. That is the defect. They are running on an animal civilization as human civilization. That is the defect. Sense gratification is animal civilization. And actually they are animals. If they can kill their own child, it is animal. Just like cats, dogs, they kill their own child. What is that? It is animal civilization. Who was talking that child is put into the, what is that, left luggage?

Hari-śauri: Left-luggage lockers. Trivikrama Mahārāja, in Japan. He said over two hundred thousand, uh, twenty thousand babies, they put them in a left-luggage locker and leave them.

Prabhupāda: Bus-way station? Railway station? Leave luggage. Put it and lock it, then not coming back. Then when there is bad smell... This is going on. This is simply animal civilization, taking the last drop of milk from the cow and immediately send it to the slaughterhouse. They are doing like that. Before sending to the slaughterhouse, they draw out the last drop of milk from the cow, and immediately killing. So you require the milk. You are taking so much milk. Without milk you cannot... And the animal from whom you take milk, she's your mother. They forget this. Mother supplies milk. She's supplying milk from her body, and you are killing the mother? Is that civilization, killing mother? And milk is necessary. Therefore you are taking the last drop of it. Otherwise, what is the use of taking the last drop of milk from the cow? It is necessary. So why not let her live and supply you milk, and you can make hundreds and thousands of very nourishing, palatable preparation from milk? Where is that intelligence? Milk is nothing but transformation of the blood. So instead of taking blood, take the transformation and live nicely, like honest gentlemen.

No. They are not even gentlemen. Rogues, uncivilized. If you want to take meat, you can kill some insignificant animals like hogs and dogs which have no use. You can eat them, if you at all eat. That was allowed. Hogs and dogs are allowed. Because no gentleman class will take meat. It is lower class. So they were allowed, "All right, you can take hogs, śvapaca." Lower class of men, they were taking hogs and dogs. Still they are taking. So if you want meat, you can kill these unimportant animals. Why you are killing the animal whose last drop of milk you require? What is the sense? And as soon as you take... Kṛṣṇa, He killed Pūtanā but gave her the position of the mother. Because Kṛṣṇa felt obliged, that "Whatever the Pūtanā's intention may be, but I sucked her breast, so she's My mother." So we are taking milk from the cow. The cow is not my mother? Who can live without milk? And who has not taken cow's milk? Immediately, in the morning, you require milk. And the animal who she's supplying milk, she's not mother? What is the sense? Mother-killing civilization. And they want to be happy. And periodically there is great war and wholesale massacre, reaction.


Prabhupāda: You make it nice garden. Next year I shall come. From May, I shall stay here = May, June, July. [devotees laugh]

Mādhavānanda: We will have many flowers.

Prabhupāda: I find this place is the best than all our places. Huh? What do you think?

Hari-śauri: Definitely.

Prabhupāda: Specially this building on the riverside. Water is there.

Mādhavānanda: Maybe, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you would like to stay a little longer this year?

Prabhupāda: I have got engagement; otherwise I would have stayed here. Already engagement is there. I want to return by fourteenth August in India. Otherwise, I would have stayed here and see things are nicely done. Anyway.

Jayādvaita: They've been after you for so long in New Vrindavan.

Prabhupāda: New Vrindavan climatic condition is not so good. Here the climatic condition is good. Four months this climate is very good. It is in the central part of America?

Mādhavānanda: Little north.

Prabhupāda: North. So north is supposed to be cooler.

Hari-śauri: In the winter it's not so good. Winter's very bad.

Prabhupāda: Winter eight months? No. In winter this water becomes solid. You know that?

Hari-śauri: Does it?

Satsvarūpa: Sometimes in Detroit there's three foot of snow, and the winter is..., it's a very deep winter here. But the summer is nice.

Prabhupāda: You convince your countrymen that "It is a great sinful activity that you are killing your mother. You stop this. If you want to eat meat, you can eat some other, nonimportant animals. There are so many." The Chinese, they are eating rats also. Cats, rats, everything.

Devotee: Monkeys.

Prabhupāda: Monkey also. So monkey's the forefather of Darwin. Better kill them so that there is no opportunity of criticism that "You are coming from monkey." You extinct this species. It is rather insulting. If I say that you are descendant of monkey, then it is insult. So extinct this monkey. I don't think there is monkey here. Africa there is monkey. You have been in Africa? There are monkey-eating birds. Top of the tree, monkey, they catch up on the head and drop it from high. And then they take it.


Prabhupāda: There was a boat who belonged to this house. I think he has sold it.

Mādhavānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: There was no objection.

Mādhavānanda: He sold it to the lawyer, Ambarīṣa's lawyer. He did not do a very good job for us, and the proof is that the owner sold the boat to the lawyer. He got a very good deal. So he was working with Roane[?] the former owner.

Prabhupāda: In his favor.

Mādhavānanda: In his favor.

Prabhupāda: Cheating.

Mādhavānanda: Yes. And the boys were not experienced enough to protect the property. Chandeliers were taken, statues, some furniture. It was not done very nicely.

Prabhupāda: That means our men were not experienced, Jagadīśa and Govardhana. Who else? Who was in charge?

Mādhavānanda: Govardhana was the president. If the lawyer knows you do not know, then he will take advantage.

Prabhupāda: Yes. [break]

Mādhavānanda: He measured the two rooms, and the lecture hall length is forty-seven feet, and twenty-seven feet wide. And the temple room length from the back to the altar, not including the Deities' room, altar, is fifty feet.

Prabhupāda: Smaller.

Mādhavānanda: No, actually larger.

Hari-śauri: Three feet bigger. That's without a Deity room also.

Mādhavānanda: It's larger. And the width of the temple room is twenty-eight. So if we were to put in the altar in the top room, it would also take maybe fifteen feet...? Ten feet. So that would make thirty-five feet as compared to fifty feet downstairs. So because we don't have that extra space of the temple room, the downstairs actually is bigger. The only difficulty is that because there is an upstairs walk, we have to walk above the Deity. But if we put a..., nice domes there it might look very nice also, and then not walk up there. But the space is bigger.

Prabhupāda: I thought this space was bigger.

Hari-śauri: It looks bigger, but the temple room is actually very big. It's a good size. Actually, the only reason that they need to go above the Deities is just to get into that room where tulasī is, although they open those doors sometimes.

Prabhupāda: There is another big room, so add it together. Two rooms, then it will be bigger.

[pause] [break]

Prabhupāda: ...with snow.

Satsvarūpa: I was thinking of that. About five months, it can even snow here in April, and it snows in December. From December to April. Not that every day, but when it comes, it doesn't go away either.

Prabhupāda: These trees become leafless? No.

Mādhavānanda: Yes. Except for these.

Prabhupāda: All other trees become.


Mādhavānanda: When you are here, it is just exactly like Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is here; it is Vṛndāvana.

Rakṣaṇa: Wherever His most merciful, confidential associate is.

Jayādvaita: To start this center, it was not at all like Vṛndāvana. [break]

Mādhavānanda: It's a channel, actually. It comes in from Lake St. Clair and then it goes around, and there's a bridge there, and then right..., just past, one hundred yards, it goes out again. All of this property is owned by one man. His name is Harris. He owns this whole island and all of the land up here also. And up this way there are also many large mansions, Fisher mansions. The same man who built this house built many other mansions up here. But this is the nicest.

Prabhupāda: Oh. What for he did it?

Mādhavānanda: His family members. And then on this island, at the very end, on the lake there is a very, very large mansion called the Garwood Mansion, but it was completely destroyed.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Mādhavānanda: Ah, this man Harris, he wanted to get all the people off of this land that he owned. So he let the hippies and Hell's Angels move into this Garwood Mansion, and they destroyed it. And they raised commotion and disturbance all along. He was trying to get them all to leave. He's a very strange person. Now he's trying to sell everything. They are thinking to make some housing complex. It's a very big business venture. That is why we want to buy this land in front, to protect this side of the house in case anyone else wants to build there.


Prabhupāda: They drink this water? No.

Mādhavānanda: But of all the lakes in this part of the country, this lake is the cleanest. But still it is not clean. They ruin all the waterways with the factories' wastes. When I was flying to Detroit, I passed over the lake and I saw big oil slicks all along the shores.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Just like the Kāliya serpent, poisoning the river. But you have come to dance on their heads, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [Prabhupāda chuckles] Sometimes our boys, when they go into the city, they see the big buildings like the teeth of Aghāsura. But they say, "Śrīla Prabhupāda will protect us. We will go into the smelly city, we will distribute the books in the belly of the city, but Śrīla Prabhupāda will come, and he will protect us." [Prabhupāda laughs]

Prabhupāda: What price they want for this island?

Mādhavānanda: Very large amount.

Rakṣaṇa: We can have a Māyāpur complex and a Detroit complex.

Mādhavānanda: I don't know exactly. [break]

Satsvarūpa: ...Sundays ago, one Indian man asked after the Sunday lecture, "Why does Kṛṣṇa like a peacock feather," or "Why does He have a peacock feather?" So Mādhavānanda answered, "Because He likes it." And the man said, "This is not an answer." He said, "There has to be some reason." So then I said, "You cannot question why Kṛṣṇa likes something. He's a person." But he wasn't satisfied.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is God; whatever He likes, you have to supply. That is God. Why He likes, we cannot question. That is not the business of the servant. So as servant, we simply obey the orders. That's all. That is real servant. Is there any instance the servant is asking, "Why you are asking me to supply you this?" Therefore what would be the position of the servant? He would be dismissed. Bhṛtyaś cottara-dāyakaḥ. That is very dangerous.

duṣṭā bhāryā ṣaṭhaṁ mitraṁ
bhṛtyaś cottara-dāyakaḥ
sa-sārpe ca gṛhe vāso
mṛtyur eva na saṁśayaḥ

[Nīti Śāstra]

Duṣṭā bhāryā. If wife is polluted, duṣṭā bhāryā, and śaṭhaṁ mitram, and friend is a hypocrite... Duṣṭa bhāryā ṣaṭhaṁ mitram. What is that? Bhṛtyaś cottara-dāyakaḥ: and servant does not obey, gives answer or, yes, if your master asks him, "Give me this," if he says, "Why are you asking?" Such kind of bhṛtya, servant; and polluted wife and hypocrite friend, three; and a snake within the bedroom... [break] Family means father, mother, wife, children. Generally this is family. So family members are supposed to be all friendly, in one accord, so that family life is peaceful. But sometimes the family members become enemies. So how they become enemies? That is given by Cāṇakya Paṇḍita = mātā śatruḥ, ṛṇa-kartā pitā śatruḥ. Father is enemy if he's a debtor, he dies a debtor. According to Vedic law, because the son inherits the property of father, he's responsible also for the debts of the father, by law. A father dies debtor, so the creditor can claim from his son. So therefore ṛṇa-kartā pitā śatruḥ. A father who dies a debtor, he's enemy. Mātā śatrur dvicāriṇī: mother becomes enemy when she accepts another husband in the presence of children. Mātā śatrur dvicāriṇī. Ṛṇa-kartā pitā śatruḥ is father and mother. Then wife = rūpavatī bhāryā śatruḥ. If wife is very beautiful, she's enemy. [laughs] Rūpavatī bhāryā śatruḥ. Because he will remain always anxious, "Whether my wife is going with other somebody?" And it so happens. [laughs] Rūpavatī bhāryā śatruḥ. And putraḥ śatrur apaṇḍitaḥ: and son is enemy if he's a rascal. So father, mother, wife, children.

Hari-śauri: And the daughter?

Prabhupāda: Daughter is also son. Son and daughter are the same position. If they are not educated, they become burden. Apaṇḍita means not educated. Then they become burden, simply eyesore. That is another place he states = varam eko guṇī putro na ca mūrkha-śatair api. Ko 'rthaḥ putreṇa jātena yo na vidvān na bhaktimān [Cāṇakya Paṇḍita]. What is the use of such children, of son, who is neither a devotee nor a learned man? So, kāṇena cakṣuṣā kiṁ vā cakṣuḥ pīḍaiva kevalam. Just like blind eyes. What is the use of it? It is simply pains-giving. You have got eyes, but if it is diseased, cataract or something, so what is the use of possessing these eyes? Sometimes it becomes so painful that the doctors, they pluck out. You know that? They get out the eyes completely and decorate with a false eye. This is very delicate place. Even a small grain enters, it gives so much trouble. So if the eye itself is diseased, it is very, very painful. Therefore sometimes he plucks out. Kāṇena cakṣuṣā kiṁ vā cakṣuḥ pīḍaiva kevalam.

Hari-śauri: One of the peacocks has opened its tail.

Mādhavānanda: Dancing.

Hari-śauri: Doing its dance.

Mādhavānanda: Vṛtrāsura, he said the same thing when he was fighting Lord Indra, that a son who is neither a devotee or a hero is useless.

Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu said if there is no Kṛṣṇa, then everything is useless. Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṇa me [Śikṣāṣṭaka 7].

[long pause] [break]

Mādhavānanda: ...attach a rope to the back of the boat, and they have wooden skis...

Prabhupāda: Plank.

Mādhavānanda: ...and they ski on the water for sport.

Jayādvaita: Satsvarūpa Mahārāja and I were at some place where there was a lake, and on Saturday and Sunday so many speedboats with people playing and enjoying, and on Monday, no boats. Everyone was working again.

Prabhupāda: They do not want to work. Therefore they take advantage of Sunday. Inclination is that not to work. But unfortunately that is not possible. If they do not work, they cannot eat. But if we say that "There is a place, without working you can eat, and for example, come to us," they will not accept. Then they will say, "You are escaping. You are escaping." [laughs] If you work, that you don't like, and if somebody does not work, he's escaping.

Hari-śauri: Envy.

Prabhupāda: Just see. There is story like that. One saintly person was sitting, and some karmīs came, that = "You are escaping; you are not working." So he said, "Why shall I work?" "You'll get money." "So what shall I do with the money?" "Then you can live peacefully." And "I am living peacefully. Why shall I work?" [laughs] So they want to earn money, keep a good bank balance, and at the end of the life they want to live very peacefully, without any working. But if somebody is living peacefully without working, they will criticize him. Envious. They will accuse him, "You are escaping." If the end is this, and I shall live peacefully without any work---I am doing that in my own standard---why you are bothering me?

Hari-śauri: Once I was on saṅkīrtana and an old man came up, and he was very, very angry. He was so angry he was almost going to hit me, and he was saying, "I'm seventy-three years old, and I have to work every day!" He stopped from his job to come over. And he said, "I'm seventy-three years old, and I still have to work. And here you are on the street, and you're doing nothing," like this, "and I'm so old and I still have work." He was so angry he was almost going to hit me. So envious.

Mādhavānanda: Sometimes they question, "How can you be happy? You don't drink, you don't smoke, you don't eat meat and you don't gamble. What do you do?"

Prabhupāda: Did you not say that we have got something; the pleasure derived from all these things, that is very inferior? We have got pleasure of superior quality. Therefore we have been able to give it up. That is the fact. But you have no information of the superior pleasure. Therefore sticking to this inferior pleasure.

Mādhavānanda: In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, when Dakṣa cursed Lord Śiva, he also said that statement that the materialists are always envious of the self-realized souls for their opulence of self-realization. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...nature is the mother. So is that correct or not?

Mādhavānanda: Yes, yes. "Mother nature."

Prabhupāda: So mother is there and children are there; so why there is no father? They say there is no God. How it is possible? The mother is there and children are there. How it is that there is no father? What is the answer? They say there is no God, or no father?

Mādhavānanda: They say that there may be God, but no one has ever seen Him.

Prabhupāda: You might not have seen your father; does it mean there is no father?

Hari-śauri: Then they say what is the relevance of knowing who your father is? We exist, so let's move forward.

Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all, thing is that you say there is no God. That is... Or there is no father. How it can be accepted?

Jayādvaita: They'll say that mother and father..., we see that a human being has a mother and father.

Prabhupāda: Everyone has mother and father. Birds, beasts, everyone.

Jayādvaita: But these material things, they don't need mothers and fathers.

Prabhupāda: No, there is father; you do not know. You are blind. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg. 7.10]. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā [Bg. 14.4]. God says there that "I am the seed-giving father." Otherwise, how it is possible to beget children? You are experienced that unless the father gives the seed, there is no question of children. So how they can deny the father? You may have seen or not seen, doesn't matter. But there must be father. Just like Jābāla Upaniṣad, Gautama Muni asked that Satyaka, "Who is your father?" First of all said = "Are you brāhmaṇa?" "Sir, I do not know." "Who is your father?" "I do not know." "Go and ask your mother." Mother asked; she said, "I do not remember who is your father." She never denied, that "You had no father; you were automatically born." She never said that. She said only that "I don't remember who is your father." And he wanted... [aside:] Don't. ...want to that service.[?] So the mother said that "I do not remember who is your father." So he said frankly, that "My mother does not remember who is my father." So Gautama Muni accepted him, that "You are so truthful; so you are brāhmaṇa. I will accept you." Nobody would like to say that "My mother does not remember who is my father." But he said that. Therefore he accepted him, that "You are so truthful. I'll accept you as my disciple." So the point is, the mother said, "I do not remember who is your father." But the mother did not say that "You are born without father." That is not possible. So when there is mother, there is children, there must be father. That's a fact. You cannot put any argument. How they can say there is no God, "We have not seen God"? What is this nonsense argument? Hmm? What will be the answer?

Jayādvaita: We gave a class in a university, and the professor was an atheist. He didn't want us to speak, but he finally agreed we could speak. And after we'd spoken, he gave some argument against us. But even... He couldn't argue against us. His argument was for us.

Prabhupāda: What was that argument? [laughs]

Jayādvaita: He said that two fish are swimming in a tank, and one fish said to the other fish that there must be God because someone must be changing the water in the tank. So he was trying to ridicule, that these fish are speculating something. But I just said to the students, "So this is a very good conversation. The fish is intelligent. There must be someone who is running the environment, nature." So he couldn't say anything against us, although he was trying to be a big atheist.

Prabhupāda: What was the point?

Jayādvaita: He was trying to show somehow that these foolish fish were speculating something, just to make some story that would sound..., that this is a ridiculous thing to think. But it was a very sensible thing to think.

Prabhupāda: What is that sensible thing?

Jayādvaita: That the environment is being controlled by someone, not by us. So there is someone superior. So I just said that to his students, "So your professor is giving a good example."

Prabhupāda: In our favor.

Jayādvaita: In our favor.

Prabhupāda: That's a fact. The fish may be swimming in the water, but a sensible fish must inquire that "Who has created this water?" We are enjoying in the water, or in the land, so the enquiry should be, "Who's land it is?" We are demarcated this land "mine," he has demarcated this land "mine," but originally, who is the owner of this land? Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Everything is God's property. That is natural. And God said, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. Somebody must be proprietor. I am proprietor of this land. Who is the proprietor of this water? That is natural question. If somebody is proprietor of this land, then somebody must be proprietor of that water.

Mādhavānanda: You once asked that same question to Kenneth Keating in Delhi. You said, "You say that this is America, but who owns America?" He could not answer.

Prabhupāda: Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata [Bg. 13.3]. The best thing is to follow the formula given by Kṛṣṇa = na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. As soon as one denies the supremacy of God, he is either sinful, rascal, lowest of the mankind---in these categories. This is the qualification. So we shall take things very simplified. As soon as we see somebody not Kṛṣṇa conscious, immediately we take him in either of these groups. That's all. Then if he objects, then you come to argument. Hmm? What do you think?

Mādhavānanda: Yes. And in argument, we can never be defeated.

Prabhupāda: So in the school, college classes, there is sometimes argument?

Satsvarūpa: All the time. [laughter] We always save half the time for questions, and immediately, "How do you know that that is true?" All challenging. "Why should I believe?" "How could God present the scriptures?" All faithless.

Jayādvaita: In this part of the country, I think the students, generally they admit there is God. They're a little pious in this central portion. There are so many farms and they're not so deteriorated.

Prabhupāda: Polluted.

Jayādvaita: But then they don't accept that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the only process for understanding God. They want to maintain Christian religion, or... Not Christian religion, but sense gratification and, at the same time, God consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Well, we are not denying sense gratification. We want to regulate, that's all.

Mādhavānanda: Actually, we have the best sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes.

Mādhavānanda: On the radio program, one lady, she was asking questions. She was very envious. "And you are living in such a palace."

Prabhupāda: Why shall I not? Government servants, they live in the best place. We are Kṛṣṇa's servants, the supreme government. We must have the best car, best house, the best food, [laughter] everything. You are unfortunate, you are wretched, you cannot possess this. We are government's servants. Why the governor is living in the best house of the city?

Mādhavānanda: We said, "You can live here with us." She said, "Thank you."

Prabhupāda: Without any charges. Did you not say? But as soon as you shall say there is no tea, he'll go away. "Oh, horrible." [laughter] Just see. And you have to rise early in the morning. "Oh, it's still horrible." Then chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. "Ah, still."

Hari-śauri: There are so many apparent contradictions in our life-style, the karmīs are just baffled. They see us living in a big, nice house and enjoying such nice grounds and everything, and then we tell them we get up at three-thirty and take a cold bath and do so many..., and we don't drink or smoke or anything. They can't understand.

Satsvarūpa: The Sunday newspaper here a month ago did a very big story, the whole front cover. And it was called "Kṛṣṇa Consciousness = Salvation or Slavery?"

Hari-śauri: That was that article that you saw in Honolulu.

Mādhavānanda: These are our two biggest book distributors of the women---Lekhaśravantī and mother Jagadhātrī.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Mādhavānanda: They claim that when we chant, we hypnotize ourselves.

Prabhupāda: And still we save expenditure. You hypnotize by drinking. [laughter] We haven't got to pay for that, whiskey bottle. That is also hypnotizing. You want to forget all day's labor by drinking. That is also hypnotizing. Or by gambling. So we also hypnotize. Better hypnotizing method.

Jayādvaita: In New York, you argued that it may be hypnotizing, but by this hypnosis we get people to give up gambling, intoxication, meat-eating and illicit sex. So it should be adopted. [break]

Śrutakīrti: ...some very interesting statistics this morning about drinkers in this country.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: My father, he's the president of this liquor company, and they study the charts to see who is drinking the most. And they have discovered that the biggest drinkers in the world are the politicians in Washington, D.C.; that they drink more liquor than anyone.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They have got so many anxieties. So many anxieties.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: And how can they manage nicely if they are always intoxicated?

Hari-śauri: When we were running our political format in Melbourne---one of the boys was going for some positioning in the state---he was quoted in the newspapers. They picked it out as the quote of the week, because they asked him, they said, "What would be the first thing, if you are elected, that you will do?" So he said, "I would abolish the bar in the House of Parliament." So they said, "Oh, why would you do that?" He said "How can you rule a country when you're intoxicated all the time?" So they picked it out and put it in the newspaper as the quote of the week.

Prabhupāda: Who said?

Hari-śauri: In Melbourne, in one of the papers.

Prabhupāda: Our man said?

Hari-śauri: Yes. He was standing for election.

Prabhupāda: Very good argument, that these drunkards, rascals, how you can rule over the country? You are always intoxicated.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Actually, the general mass of American people, if they hear this, they will respect us very much. Just like we were staying in the campsites. The little children, they come to the āratis, then they go back to their campsite, and they told, "Oh, mommy, daddy, come see this wonderful bus." So they bring their fathers to Bhagavad-gītā class. So we were lecturing to the fathers of all these children, and afterwards, they were all giving donations and taking Bhagavad-gītās. Because they are very much upset about the country, but they have no solution.

Prabhupāda: No.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: And we are the men who can give alternatives.

Mādhavānanda: In a recent issue of Newsweek magazine, there was a very large article about Washington, D.C., politicians---congressmen and senators being exposed by the press for going out with prostitutes and taking money and misspending. Big expose, scandal.

Prabhupāda: What is that sound? Airplane?

Mādhavānanda: There is a very large factory over there. You can see the smokestacks. What is it? What kind of factory?

Devotee: I think it's electrical factory.

Mādhavānanda: Electrical company.

Prabhupāda: We have got open place, but not very pleasant. You cannot sit down for a long time. The wind is cold.

Mādhavānanda: Very beautiful here, all over the grounds. There's also very beautiful places over there and all over.

Prabhupāda: So develop it nicely. [break] ...fruit and flower trees. Mango trees, abundant. All fruits.

Mādhavānanda: Lychee also?

Prabhupāda: Lychee, yes. Banana, papaya, jackfruit, apple, guava...

Hari-śauri: Pineapple.

Prabhupāda: Pineapple. And flowers.

Hari-śauri: They have lots of gardenias there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. [peacock crying in background] Where you got this?

Mādhavānanda: Ann Arbor, Michigan, a farm. They raise peacocks on different farms. [loud call of peacock]

Hari-śauri: It sounds just like Vṛndāvana in the morning. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...also. The evening begins at eleven, half past twelve. And morning, at four o'clock. A few hours only. That is also not complete dark.

Hari-śauri: Moscow is very far north, very northerly.

Prabhupāda: I think I went there in during the month of June. [japa]

Mādhavānanda: When you went to Moscow, it was the mango season in India.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mādhavānanda: Because I remember when you went, someone said, "You will miss the mango season, Śrīla Prabhupāda." And you said, "Preaching in the snows of Russia is more sweet than any mango." [Prabhupāda laughs]

Hari-śauri: Even though you went there in the early summer, there was no fruits or anything. No flowers.

Prabhupāda: Only these...

Hari-śauri: Strawberries.

Prabhupāda: Strawberry. They simply eat meat, that's all. And some milk preparation.

Hari-śauri: They can't even do that now. Someone was saying that they restrict them now. One day a week they have to eat fish because there is not enough meat.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Hari-śauri: So they force them to eat fish now. [laughs] It's very bad.

Mādhavānanda: They are breeding... In the airport we met one man; he is working on breeding a large bull, cattle. They breed cows for slaughter. So they are breeding now a very large cattle. They grow very, very... It's called..., instead of buffalo, they've named it beefalo.

Jayādvaita: They crossed buffalo.

Mādhavānanda: Crossbreed. And it is very huge bull. They raise it only for slaughtering, for getting a large quantity of meat. One bull, one buffalo, weighs hundreds and hundreds of pounds. And they sell it for half million dollars for one, so that they can breed it with others and make many. In the airports, when we are distributing books, we meet many farmers who have slaughter ranches. Whenever they say "farmer," usually it's for slaughtering. [break]

Jayādvaita: ...in Wisconsin we saw that there are many dairy cows. They are raising them especially for milk. It's called America's dairyland. And they have many, many big dairy cows. And they are getting so much milk. We were preaching that "If you take up Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you'll have the richest state, because you have so many cows, and we are preaching that people should drink milk and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So your state will be the richest."

Prabhupāda: No. We can... From milk, we can make so many nice foods. You take ghee, and from ghee, from grains, from fruits, you make so many varieties. Just like ḍāl pulses, soak it in the water and then fry in the ghee and put masalā, and it is so nice salty preparation, ḍāl matha. Then make samosā. You introduce these things, ḍāl matha, samosā, jalebīs; they will like. They have never tasted all these. Sandeśa, rasagullā, pantoa, so many varieties from milk, only milk.

Mādhavānanda: In the restaurant in New York, many, many respectable people come, and they come once and they come back again and again and again.

Prabhupāda: Paramānna, puṣpānna, kicoranna, so many things. What is that? If you kill the cow you get the meat only one time. But if you allow the cow to live and take milk, and from milk you can make hundreds and thousands of preparations. That is enjoyment, real enjoyment. In Delhi, there are shops, very respectable shops = one side salt, and one side sweet. But the salt side or sweet side, they're all based on ghee. This preparation, dahī bada, so nice. Combination of grain and yogurt. So introduce this. They do not know. It is a new type of civilization we are trying to introduce for the benefit of the human society. They do not know it. Crude civilization. Primitive. Kill an animal and eat. And when you are civilized, you are supposed to know so many things; why should you kill the animal? You utilize the animal. This milk is taking the blood without killing. That is humanity. You are eating beef because of the blood. So if you take the blood in a different way, you get the same benefit. And if you are still ambitious to eat the meat, flesh, just wait, it will die, you take at that time. Why so hurry? Everyone will die, there is no doubt about it. So you take the dead body and eat. Why do they not?

Hari-śauri: They said there's something wrong with it. When it dies, it has so many diseases and things.

Prabhupāda: This is rascaldom. They are eating so many dead animals. [laughter]

Hari-śauri: But they say if they kill it in a healthy condition then the meat they eat is good.

Prabhupāda: No, no, just like lobsters, they are very fond of lobster. Lobster is never bought living. It is dead and rotten, decomposed, and they eat. They cannot say that by killing we get fresh. You are eating so many rotten things, decomposed. Actually, I have seen. It has become like pus, and still they are eating.

Hari-śauri: In England they had a system, the gentry. When it was pheasant-shooting season, they used to kill the pheasants and then they would hang them up in the outhouses. And then, after a few days, it would begin to rot. And when they were able to pull the skin off just in one piece, when it was just hanging off, they could just pull it off, then it was good for eating. That's when they would eat the flesh.

Prabhupāda: Just see. And another, they are digging the pig? You said?

Hari-śauri: Oh, Śukadeva was saying in Hawaii. They bury the pig, and when it becomes completely rotten they dig it up and eat it.

Prabhupāda: So similarly, when the cow is dead, you dig, or put it within the... Or take it. No, nobody will object. In India, that is the system. When the cow is dead, there is a class, they are called cobblers, cāmāra. They are informed and they'll come; they'll take it. And they'll eat the flesh and take the skin, and tan it in their own method, and then prepare shoes. They sell it in the market. So without any price, they get the skin, they eat the flesh. So nobody is harmed. But there is a class... [break] ...they are not going to starve. From economic point of view, it is very good. So why you are killing and maintaining so big, big slaughterhouse? Let everyone maintain the cows for taking milk. And when it dies, you take it, you meat-eaters. Make that arrangement.

Rakṣaṇa: They spend so much money on force-feeding the cows [indistinct] cows when they die.

Mādhavānanda: It's actually been proven that the animal's flesh becomes poison. Because of the fear of the animal, he releases adrenalin in his bloodstream, and this adrenalin makes the meat poisonous to the human system, proven scientifically.

Hari-śauri: Causing cancer.

Mādhavānanda: And that is one of the causes of cancer.

Prabhupāda: I think we published some article.

Jayādvaita: Yes, in Back to Godhead, we gave these arguments.

Mādhavānanda: Mukunda did research.

Prabhupāda: He wrote it nice.

Mādhavānanda: Yes. Cancer is the largest killing disease now. [break]

Makhanlāl: [laughter] These are some pictures of our farm project, St. Louis farm project.

Prabhupāda: Yes, increase farm projects. It is very nice project. Self-dependent. Very good. Kṛṣṇa personally, He lived in village---farm, cows, calves, land, Govardhana Hill. It is very nice. Land, in America, you have got so much land. Produce vegetable, grains, milk, eat sumptuously, no economic question. Prepare very nice product. And make some money by sending ghee in the city. Śrutakīrti will take charge. [laughter] There is sea also? No. Water?

Makhanlāl: There's a small creek in one...

Prabhupāda: Not ocean.

Makhanlāl: Not ocean, no.

Hari-śauri: That's just the hills in the background.

Prabhupāda: I think this farm organization will not be liked by the government.

Hari-śauri: Because of the self-sufficiency? Once they know that we can live independently, they won't like it.

Mādhavānanda: They don't like it already. They are attacking in New Vrindavan, publicity saying that this is just a hippie farm and this and that. They don't like it.

Devotee: This is the state?

Mādhavānanda: The state. Yes. They see that we are living independently of the entire society. They don't like that. They want everyone to be following their way of society.

Prabhupāda: Why not our way of? If you want to enforce your way of life, why not I enforce my way of life? Then where is my independence? You cannot enforce your way of life. This is standard life.

Devotee: The neighbors like us.

Prabhupāda: Neighbors?

Devotee: Neighbors around the farm. They like us.

Prabhupāda: Like us?

Devotee: Yes.

Hari-śauri: Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja was saying that we're very popular with the neighbors there.

Prabhupāda: That is good sign.

Devotee: One farmer called his tractor the Hare Rāma tractor.

Prabhupāda: [laughs] They are getting daily fresh vegetable, fresh milk. It is very palatable.

Mādhavānanda: We wanted to have a cow here, but they won't allow one within the city limits.

Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. The government is rākṣasa. So you have to take charge of the government. First of all make propaganda, the majority of population may in favor of you. Then you'll get vote. This is the easiest process. If majority people likes, that "These Kṛṣṇa conscious men are very nice," then you make a candidate---"Vote for Kṛṣṇa conscious person, such and such." They'll vote. In this way, you'll capture the Senate, then government, then Presidentship. It is very... At least, there must be majorities of the people sympathizers of this movement. Then it will be success. So you do everything exemplified, and people will vote. But it is difficult in this way, that "These people are prohibiting intoxication and gambling. How we can live without this?" That is the difficulty. They cannot imagine even that without these things one can live. Is it not?

Hari-śauri: It's a fact. If you stop them doing that, they'll have no activity, just working.

Rakṣaṇa: We should expand our New Bhakta program so that they can have weekend stays in āśramas, have practical experience.

Prabhupāda: That they are coming. [break]

Mādhavānanda: ...of birds.

Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as there are trees, there will be birds.

Hari-śauri: I saw a squirrel down there earlier on, as well. Squirrels, there was one just down there earlier on.

Prabhupāda: Ideal. Let there be an ideal section, our people, our men. And do your personal advancement. Better that much. If people come, it's all right. Otherwise, we must make our own life successful.

Mādhavānanda: Once you wrote Gargamuni Swami in Nepal that even if they will not listen, simply by your being there, even if they see you chant japa sitting on a street corner, they will become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Jayādvaita: We got a phone call today from someone in Kalamazoo---it's many hours away. And he met some devotee in a store who was there for purchasing something, and just by talking for a few minutes he decided that he wanted to come here and see you in Detroit. So he was calling on the phone, when would you be here.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If we get this land we can cultivate some grains, foodstuff. On account of this water facility you can grow so many things---vegetables, fruits, food grains---very nice. Keep cows. [break] Industrial civilization will fail. They are manufacturing simply cars. The time is approaching very swiftly when there will be no more demand for cars.

Mādhavānanda: Already it's failing. Already. They are making so many cars now, and people aren't purchasing. In the newspaper, you see big pictures of huge miles of lots of unsold cars. The whole motorcar business, industry, is going down.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They have another trick. Now they make them very cheap so the cars will break down every year.

Prabhupāda: But if I don't want it, either cheap or dear, who cares for it, if I don't want that? There was a statement by some Pope that "If the crown of England is offered to me at very cheap price, so why shall I accept it? What shall I do with it?" That is the..., that if I don't want a car... Suppose if we advance our farming program, who will want the car? Theoretically, accept it, that we shall remain in the farm. Then where is the necessity of car?

Mādhavānanda: Therefore the government will not like.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The government does not like it now because we are not going to eat meat, we are not accepting liquor, no gambling, no prostitution. So the government is already concerned. Theoretically, suppose these things are stopped, then where is the human civilization? Everything is finished. Because they have no other alternative. We have got---Kṛṣṇa consciousness---but they haven't got.

Mādhavānanda: They become bored very easily. If they do not have all the different material amusements, they become very bored and depressed.

Prabhupāda: And we have got everything. We have got feasting, dancing, chanting, philosophy, clean, and spotless life.

Hari-śauri: Friendship. Everything.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No animal killing. We are not envious of anyone.

Mādhavānanda: People come to the temple, and they say that it is like paradise here because there is no anxiety. Everyone is so happy and peaceful.

Prabhupāda: So keep this standard. At least, people will be attracted; they will appreciate it. Don't minimize this temple; keep it nicely.

Devotee: A boy said today it was like heaven on earth.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā? That's nice.

Jayādvaita: The only place that I found some difficulty is that sometimes if there is some discrepancy in behavior of our students, some petty stealing or something like that, then that is...

Prabhupāda: That you have to train our men so that they may be well behaved.

Jayādvaita: In Laguna Beach we had so many complaints that they were trying to stop the temple. And their main complaint was that the devotees were taking flowers from people's gardens, and without any permission, without any..., simply taking. And just on that account they wanted to stop us. Some petty stealing, fifty dollars' worth of flowers.

Prabhupāda: So why our devotees should take flowers from them? Stop it.

Jayādvaita: Yes, I stopped it. Instead I sent a letter to the neighbors that no one is taking flowers, and we are planting a big garden. Now they've done that, and the neighbors come, and they appreciate that such a nice garden is there; they remark.

Prabhupāda: You can make them friends, that "Your flowers in the garden will dry and fall down, so while it is fresh, if it is offered to God, and you'll get benefit out of it, why you object?" Yes. That's a fact.

Jayādvaita: They'll do that, too.

Prabhupāda: Yes, so convince them. They will be not enemy.

Hari-śauri: We used to tell them that in Melbourne, but they said, "Leave them alone, 'cause we want to enjoy them." They said that they're in their gardens for their own enjoyment.

Prabhupāda: They have no idea that why the flowers are taken. It is not for our enjoyment; for your enjoyment. When your flowers will be accepted by Kṛṣṇa, you'll be happy.

Jayādvaita: It's a little difficult to explain afterwards. Instead of explaining before, that "Can we take," they would take and then explain.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that you have to manage. That is preaching. What you'll do? I have seen that garden, there are lemons, apples;, they are rotting and falling down. So while they can be used for Kṛṣṇa's purpose, why don't you give it? [break] ...too hot. At night, of course, it is not hot. They lie down in open place like this on a cot. Very pleasing sleeping. [japa]

Mādhavānanda: This is their favorite place.

Prabhupāda: All, they are living in the same tree?

Mādhavānanda: Yes. Seven of them.

Pālikā: These peacocks are very friendly here. They stay together. They lay here altogether in the sun.

Prabhupāda: The birds of the same feather flock together. [laughter]

Jayādvaita: By Ann Arbor temple there is one squirrel who comes to take prasādam from the devotees. He comes right up to them and takes some laḍḍu or something like that. Very fat squirrel.

Prabhupāda: He knows that they'll not harm.

Jayādvaita: Yes.

Mādhavānanda: The neighbors say that every morning the peacocks wake them up.

Passerby on a boat: Ahoy there!

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Hare Kṛṣṇa!

Mādhavānanda: What does ahoy mean?

Prabhupāda: What they say?

Mādhavānanda: Ahoy.

Hari-śauri: It's a nautical form of greeting used by sailors.

Mādhavānanda: It's a greeting.

Prabhupāda: They'll come gradually. In that way, it is very important place. There are so many people passing.

Mādhavānanda: Today I was speaking to our lawyer on the phone, and I said we are very busy now, we're having a program here, our spiritual master is here. He said, "Yes, I heard. Some of my friends were driving past in a boat, and they saw three hundred devotees." So many respectable people come this way.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Hari-śauri: These people who own boats, they're just...

Prabhupāda: They are greeting, that means they are respectable gentlemen. So make friendship with them.

Mādhavānanda: That man, he said, "I'm your neighbor."

Prabhupāda: So make friendship with them.

Mādhavānanda: Yes, we can have a place here where they can stop, and we can serve prasādam.

Prabhupāda: No, that is our gateway?

Mādhavānanda: Place there. Serve prasādam and preach.

Prabhupāda: Yes, invite them = "Come in, take prasādam." So out of inquisitiveness, they may come, and give them prasādam, show them temple. In this way. Show them our books. Simply put there signboard, "Please come in and take prasādam." [break] ...in and read our books, like that. The bird took a fish in that way?

Mādhavānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And fell and flew away. How quickly they can take. Everyone knows his business. That intelligence there everywhere. Āhāra nidrā bhayam maithunī. For these things---how to eat, how to sleep, how to enjoy sex and how to defend---everyone knows. You do not require to educate them. Only they cannot take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is only possible by the human beings. Otherwise, other necessities of bodily..., everyone knows. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovidaḥ [SB 1.5.18]. Every morning, this place should be washed with water. Then it will be very nice. Then we can sit down and chant all day and night, Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is the wrong there? Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31]. Haridāsa Ṭhākura was doing that. But don't imitate. But I mean to say, if you do that, where is the problem? [break] ...I think you can acquire some land through the government for agriculture and cow protection. There are so many, so much vacant land. I think they will accept community proposal. Sometimes invite some important government officials; let them see what we are doing.

Hari-śauri: Hmm. Like that congressman the other day.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: He was very impressed.

Prabhupāda: Very much impressed. He's friendly, you can invite him again. He can introduce a law; he's a law officer. [break] ...charges. They may not think they will charge. And some pictures from our books. Signboard, book and pictures. There are some painters here? No painters?

Mādhavānanda: No.

Prabhupāda: Well, there are so many painters. You can bring from Los Angeles.

Mādhavānanda: Yes, I was thinking.

Rakṣaṇa: Rādhā-vallabha can set up like Māyāpur. They're all waterproofed and everything else there.

Prabhupāda: Give them one big room.

Mādhavānanda: I was thinking to ask Baradrāj to come, because he...

Prabhupāda: He's busy there, but somebody may go there and learn from Baradrāj how to make dolls and prepare here. One room. There are so many big, big rooms.

Mādhavānanda: Yes, I was thinking that.

Prabhupāda: Make diorama. People will come to see.

Mādhavānanda: They like those things very much.

Prabhupāda: Instead of so-called library, reception, you make doll room, these big, big rooms. All big glass case...

Mādhavānanda: Yes. They would like that very much.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mādhavānanda: Because already this is like a historic museum.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mādhavānanda: It's so beautiful.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So in big glass case... One girl saw me in Los Angeles. No? Hawaii.

Hari-śauri: Candranibha?

Prabhupāda: So she's not getting facility in Hawaii. She can come here with two, three assistants. There is so much place here. So correspond with...

Mādhavānanda: Hawaii.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Or ask our Govinda dāsī. Write one letter to Govinda dāsī---I'll sign---that "You can come with your assistants. Here is a very good scope for doll making and exhibit. And the place is very nice. You'll like." So many other girls, they can also learn. Doll making is very easy. It is not difficult.

Mādhavānanda: We have good facility here for it.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. The clay is soft here?

Mādhavānanda: Well, usually they purchase clay, don't they? For Baradrāj's? Usually they purchase art clay in America.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Fuller's earth. That is wanted, Fuller's earth.

Mādhavānanda: Actually, the previous owner of this house, he wanted to make this a restaurant, a very posh restaurant on the waterfront, and he applied for many, many months to get permission from the city. And finally he got it. So actually we have restaurant status here. It would be very easy for us to start a restaurant. People would come... When people see the house, they are so amazed.

Hari-śauri: That would be a big attraction---a waterside restaurant.

Prabhupāda: Hmm, yes.

Mādhavānanda: We could have tables and chairs on the grounds, and...

Prabhupāda: No, we are not going to do it. Better make it a doll exhibition. And give them prasādam free. Restaurant in the city, that is all right. Not here. Nobody will come to the restaurant from the city. That is not possible. But we give them free prasādam. Let them come and see, and read our book, and take prasādam. [japa] [break]

Makhanlāl: ...Prabhupāda, you mentioned that soon there will not be so much use for automobiles. What will be our means of spreading the saṅkīrtana movement?

Prabhupāda: We shall walk. You'll have good exercise. [laughter]

Makhanlāl: By ox cart also?

Prabhupāda: If possible; if not, walk. What is that?

Hari-śauri: Maybe we can develop some mystic opulence and walk on the water.

Prabhupāda: Here, in this world, everything has got six changes = birth, then stay, and then develop, then by-products, then dwindle, then finish. Everything. So the motorcar civilization, it was born. And now the time has come it is dwindling, and it will be finished. Just like railway; railway no more interest, anybody. But when it was invented, it was very important. Now it is useless. That is the nature of everything here in this material world. It cannot be permanent benefit. That they do not know. They become very enthusiastic when some new thing is born. Child is born, I am very happy. The same child, when he's dead, I am unhappy. But one must know = what is born, it will die. So everything material has got a period of development, then it dwindles and then finishes. So from this nature's law, we can see this motorcar attraction, utility, it will be finished. It will not stay.

Mādhavānanda: Now the main means is aeroplane. Now everyone wants to travel by air. In some large cities, the airports are so crowded, there is so much traffic overhead, that now they have to develop means of...

Prabhupāda: All accident takes place while coming down. Or while going up. On the sky there is no danger.

Devotee: They call it traffic control system in the sky. Just like there is traffic on the road, they call it the traffic control system. They have so much traffic in the air.

Prabhupāda: What they control?

Hari-śauri: They keep them flying around the airport until there's room for them to come in. One's taking off and one's coming in.

Prabhupāda: That already they are doing. When there is no space, they send news, that "Don't come down." So they come like this.

Devotee: They have been known to hit in the air.

Mādhavānanda: Māyā-sukhāya.

Prabhupāda: So the airport is also becoming a problem.

Hari-śauri: Everything's a problem without Kṛṣṇa.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: When we are traveling on the road, we see so much land not used. And we think, "Why not take everyone out of the factories, let them plant fruit and flower trees along the roads all over the country and build beautiful ponds. Everyone can bathe when they walk, for refreshment." Just like in Caitanya-caritāmṛta. I think Nṛsiṁha Brahmacārī, he was building a road for Lord Caitanya, very nicely.

Prabhupāda: No, they will create slaughterhouse, brothel, then liquor shop, gambling house. That's all.

Mādhavānanda: This is our biggest book distributor of the men---Pañca-tattva dāsa. One day in the airport he distributed three hundred Śrīmad-Bhāgavatams in one day. That is the record.

Prabhupāda: Hardbound Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam?

Pañca-tattva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: How did you sell so many, unless you have got supernatural power?

Mādhavānanda: Kṛṣṇa empowered him.

Prabhupāda: Actually, it is not... It is uncommon.

Mādhavānanda: Many amazing things happen when we are distributing books. People come up to us, and they say, "No, I will not take your book. I will tell you now that I will not take your book. If you want me to read your book, then I will read it, but I will not give you any money." And we say, "All right, please read it. Please read the book and tell us what you think." And they say, "All right." And "Oh, please give a donation." And they say, "No, I cannot give a donation." And we say, "All right, but please read the book." He says = "All right." "Oh, and give a donation." And they say, "All right, I'll give a donation." [laughter]

Prabhupāda: And you give the book?

Mādhavānanda: Yes. It is like magic. Kṛṣṇa is trying to help them also.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: One big lawyer, he is fighting us for not going to the airports. He is working for the airlines. So he was going on a pleasure trip to Las Vegas from New York. So his friend gave him five dollars and said, "When you come to a good charity, give this---it will give you good luck." So he took the five dollars, got on the plane, went to Las Vegas, gets off the plane, goes into the terminal, and a young man comes up to him, says, "We are doing very good work. Please give a donation." He said, "Oh, my friend has given me five dollars, so here is a good cause." Gives the five dollars to the boy. He said = "Oh, here, take this book also." So he, "All right." He goes, he sits in the car, opens the book, he said, "Oh, no! It is the Hare Kṛṣṇas! I have been tricked." This story was told by Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja's parents. Their friend was the lawyer. So Kṛṣṇa is benedicting everyone, even the enemies. [break]

Mādhavānanda: Sometimes the karmī salesmen, they stand around to watch us distribute books, because they are so amazed at our techniques of sale and distribution, they want to learn.

Jayādvaita: They become very respectful. They don't know anything about our philosophy, but they see how nicely we...

Prabhupāda: Good salesmen.

Mādhavānanda: Yes. And sometimes they even offer jobs to the devotee, that "You come and work for me. You will be salesman for my..."

Prabhupāda: "So what nonsense book you have got? [laughter] We are going to stop your sales." Tell them. "And we are going to stop your sales. Instead of helping you for selling your books, we are going to stop all these nonsense books. That is our mission." Tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham. That is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Na yad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo, pragṛṇīta karhicit, tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham uśanti mānasāḥ [SB 1.5.10]. That verse, that however nicely it is written with..., what is called, metaphor, poetic ornaments, and very good language, grammatical set-up, and so on, so on... So that, although it is very nicely written from literary point of view, but because it does not contain any glorification of Kṛṣṇa, it is just like the spot where the crows take pleasure. Crows. The crows means they will go the nasty place where all nasty things are thrown. They take pleasure there. So all these other literature, they are meant for the crows. And this literature is meant for the swan, paramahaṁsa, white swans. So it is not the bodily color; it means those who are advanced in their development of life, consciousness, it is meant for them. It is not for the crows, who are still eating all nasty things in the garbage. Crows, they do that. They take pleasure where there are garbage, all nasty things, that's all. And the big swans, they will like water like this, garden like this. That is... Even in the lower animals, there is difference between the crow's society and swan's society. [police siren sounds] What is this?

Mādhavānanda: Police car.

Prabhupāda: Oh? Police cars very often visit this quarter?

Mādhavānanda: No.

Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda? It's nine o'clock.

Prabhupāda: It may be ten o'clock. [laughter] What is the difference when here and there? [Prabhupāda laughs] Just like a blind man, he's sleeping, now his son is getting, "Please rise, it is now morning." So he said, "For me, morning and evening is the same thing. I am blind." Kebā rātra kebā din. "For me, there is no difference between day and night, because I cannot see anything."

Rakṣaṇa: Because you see only Kṛṣṇa all the time, Śrīla Prabhupāda, it doesn't matter whether you're in your room or in the garden.

Prabhupāda: So you want to see something other than, better than Kṛṣṇa? So ārati time is now? No. If you have to go, you can go.

Hari-śauri: No. The main ārati is finished at seven o'clock.

Prabhupāda: Oh. [end]