Morning Walk , Honolulu , 1976-05-29
Prabhupāda: ...Sukadev Goswami whats does he say?
Devotee (1): About the origin of the universe?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Chance theory.
Devotee (1): To prove that theory of chance.
Prabhupāda: And still they accept it?
Devotee (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: What do you think?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's no evidence, because you've explained many times that an orange always comes from an orange tree, a banana always comes from a banana tree, man always comes from man, and monkey always comes from monkey. We find that actually things are not happening by chance. That they're very much controlled.
Prabhupāda: There is. Nobody can deny it. Only this tenth-class man will deny it. Even third-class man, fourth class, he will not deny. But what is that intelligence, one should make it a science[?]. Intelligence there is, no doubt about it.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's another theory = that God created the universe, and then things are just happening haphazardly. There's no actual design or ultimate plan of creation. Simply He created, and things were set in motion.
Prabhupāda: That is another foolish notion. Just like the seed, banyan tree seed, every plan is there = how the tree will grow, how the fruits will flower, flowers will come. Everything is there. That is intelligence. Within a small seed everything is there, potency. Śaktir vividvaiva [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. Sarvavidya. It comes certainly.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One thing though, people, they see that there's birth and death; they don't understand the purpose of the whole creation when they see that so many things are going on like this.
Prabhupāda: There is purpose. We have explained so many times. The purpose is that we have come here to enjoy, but this enjoyment is false. God has given us the chance to enjoy, to experience that this enjoyment is not good. It is simply suffering. It is not enjoyment. The plan is that he's given the chance to enjoy and experience that here there is no enjoyment and he's simply suffering. So when he comes to his sense, he again goes back home. The thief, he thinks that to live in the prison house is very good = "I haven't got to work, and I shall get my food and shelter." That is not... That is a false enjoyment. Outside the prison, that is enjoyment. If one thinks that "I don't have to work; let me go to the prison house." Father wants that the sons should live in the family, but sometimes the son leaves the family and wants to enjoy independently. So he suffers. Jajīva bhoga-vāñchā kare pasati māyā kare jāpaṭiyā dhare.
Śukadeva: Some philosophers feel that this understanding of God actually is no more than simply a wish.
Śukadeva: They feel that it is no more than a wish. That it is just simply a desire.
Prabhupāda: What you are wish? You are also taking the chance, a wish that things must act like this. But that is not happening.
Śukadeva: It is just like a person who wants to turn all the metal in the world into gold. He may be wishing and desiring to turn everything into gold, but actually it is not possible. So therefore they say that we want to be protected against the onslaught of material nature. But actually that will never happen. So therefore they create God in this way. Or some person who wants to turn all the metal into gold, but actually it's not possible.
Prabhupāda: But what you are doing? You are also doing everything hoping that you'll feel happy. Practically you're not doing anything. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They think that everything was created just so that we could enjoy for a few years and then die.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless they have solved the problems of death, all their hopes are useless. [break] ...is Sada...? What is that?
Prabhupāda: Sadāpūta. He has said nicely that "They depend on chance. We depend on God." That's all. [break] Some dress? No, bird.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, they have some bathing trunks on.
Hari-śauri: Sometimes they wear like a rubber suit. Something like the scales of a fish. It keeps them... [laughing]
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Aldous Huxley liked to think of the idea that there's no controller, so that he could enjoy without the feeling of guilt.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the whole idea. Thieves and rogues, they think, "If there's no government, then we can do whatever we like." Who is there of the thieves and rogues?
Hari-śauri: That description's given when after the brāhmaṇas killed King Vena, they saw a great, huge dust cloud on the horizon from all the thieves and rogues rushing back into the kingdom [laughing] when there was no ruler.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why doesn't he come to his senses there and then, that "What have I done? Why don't I become God conscious?"
Prabhupāda: [chuckles] That is māyā. Just like these surfer. What is that? They are in hell. But they have no sense that "What you are enjoying? It is hell." They are thinking they are enjoying. Is that enjoyment? It is actually hell. But he's thinking he's enjoying. That is called māyā. He's accepting something what is not. That is māyā. A hog eating stool, and he's thinking he's enjoying. This is called māyā. There are different grades of suffering, and still they are thinking they are enjoying.
Śukadeva: To really enjoy life you have to suffer a little bit...
Prabhupāda: He doesn't know what is enjoyment. That is the...
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So simply suffering is not a qualification for becoming God conscious then?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Simply to suffer is not qualification for becoming God conscious?
Prabhupāda: Why suffering? Where is suffering? What you are suffering? We are God conscious. We are suffering?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. No. Ah...
Hari-śauri: He means for approaching God consciousness.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is a prerequisite.
Prabhupāda: I do not under...
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So we see that, in other words, when someone goes to hell...
Prabhupāda: But he does not take it as suffering. Take it as enjoyment.
Hari-śauri: Once you understand it's suffering, ah...
Prabhupāda: So unfortunate that they're taking suffering as enjoyment. This is called māyā. Māyā vase yaccho vese kacho haba... Surfer, he is struggling against the waves, and they're thinking it is enjoyment. Chance of being drowned, being attacked by some sea animals. It is always risky and suffering, and still they're thinking enjoyment. But they're coming from far distant place to enjoy this.
Hari-śauri: They get their enjoyment from taking a risk.
Prabhupāda: That's all. What is not suffering, they're taking risk as enjoyment.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Material life is great suffering. [break] ...totally insensitive that they take such suffering to be enjoyment.
Prabhupāda: This is their punishment. They are being punished, but if you think that "I am punished," they will die. You must take it "I'm enjoying." This is māyā's energy. They are being punished, but punishment they are taking as enjoyment. Illusion. The conditioned soul is illusioned. This is illusion. He is being punished, and he's thinking "I am enjoying." That is a concession. When he's punished, he may not be woke up with the unhappiness. Therefore he's thinking "I'm enjoying." Actually he's being punished. [break]
Śukadeva: ...saying, though, you have to laugh to keep from crying.
Śukadeva: There's an old saying that things sometimes become so miserable that you have to laugh to keep from crying. So in the material world they have to keep laughing because everything is very miserable.
Prabhupāda: Just like a criminal is put into the prison house for being punished, he will say, "Just see, I am living happily. I haven't got to work. I'm getting my food." [laughing] Such, I mean, shameless. He does not know that "I am put here for suffering." But he's thinking, "I'm so living happily, that's all. I haven't got to work. Other men, they're going to the office, to the factory. I am eating." [laughing] He forgets actually he's put into the prison house for being..., to suffer. He doesn't come to his senses. Therefore again when he's released, again he comes. He thinks that it is... In Bengal they call social beggars. Social beggars, just like son-in-law goes to father-in-law's, and he's well received. So they think that prison house is social beggar, another in-law's house.
Hari-śauri: In the West they experience that, that many of the men that go out of prison, they immediately commit some crime so that they can go straight back in...
Prabhupāda: Yes. They think it is very nice. Yes. This is called māyā. He's into suffering, but he thinks this is very nice. It is called prakri badni dasuni [Sanskrit] It is covered. Stools, worms. You take the stool worm from the stool and keep it aside, again it will go to other side. [laughing] "This is enjoyment. Why you are taking me from this?" [laughing]
Hari-śauri: Like the cockroaches. If you make everything clean, they go away.
Śukadeva: In Washington, all of the bums were going there and staying in the prison, and it was costing the government a great amount of money. So they passed the law that they were not going to put the drunks in jail any more because it was costing them such a big expense. They all want to go to jail.
Hari-śauri: What about when someone goes to the hellish regions, though? He actually suffers there?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Of course. But he thinks that "I am enjoying."
Hari-śauri: Oh. 'Cause after reading the descriptions in the Bhāgavatam, it seems it's pretty horrific.
Prabhupāda: Well, when one is accustomed, then he thinks it is enjoyment.
Hari-śauri: Oh, and then he goes into another body to enjoy.
Prabhupāda: They're going to become fish. Now they are being trained up how to become fish. So after this body is finished, they'll take a body of fish. When one becomes fish he doesn't know that this is punishment. He says that it is very nice. Concession by māyā, that he's put into suffering, but he'll think that "I am enjoying." This is mercy of māyā. [break] ...anesthetic in surgical operation. Surgical operation, that is suffering, but if you apply some anesthetic, you do not perceive. It is like that. [break]
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...solution for this?
Prabhupāda: Sufficient chanting. That's all. Kirtanad eva kṛṣṇaśya mukta sanga param vrajet [SB 12.3.51].
Devotee: In the fish body will he have to suffer for all his other sinful activities also?
Prabhupāda: That is the beginning of suffering, to become fish, and then millions and millions of years he has to evolve himself to different life. [end]