Morning Walk , Honolulu , 1976-05-28

[much interference on tape, rendering sections inaudible]

Prabhupāda: ...do not accept that these trees and plants, they have got life? Do they accept or not?

Hari-śauri: Yes. They say they've recorded different types of living symptoms in plants and whatever. They see how plants react to different stimulus. And there was experiments that they actually react out of fear, they show symptoms of fear.

Prabhupāda: So, they have soul or not?

Hari-śauri: Well, they say that the human beings haven't got a soul, so what to speak of the animals and the plants.

Prabhupāda: What do they mean by soul?

Hari-śauri: [laughs] They don't mean anything. They think it's all just chemical reaction. But nowadays they're doing more research into things like telepathy and what they call ESP, extra-sensory perception. Rather than just put it down to basic chemical reactions, they're thinking that there's something on a more subtle platform.

Prabhupāda: What is that platform?

Hari-śauri: It's what they call ESP, extra-sensory perception, something that you can't see but it's still there, the influence of the mind over material objects.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They say that material objects are just like automobiles, dead, but they can't move without the influence of the spirit soul. So the human being or the trees... [break] ...and the jīvas were seeing that the body is moving, so many things are taking place. The point is that in the universe, wind is blowing, the ocean is moving...

Prabhupāda: There is birth. You are in small soul, and there is big soul, Supersoul. Similarly, as the soul is [indistinct]. If there is no soul, there is no pregnancy. [indistinct] There must be soul. Similarly, this material combination, huge material combination, [indistinct]. Without Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, there is no actual [indistinct].

Hari-śauri: Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu is the Supersoul of the universe.

Prabhupāda: There is an ocean [indistinct] in each planet, and in the Causal Ocean is Garbhodakaśāyī. [break] ...ocean, many planets and [indistinct].

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Where? Underneath the water?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You said that the different living entities in lower forms of life, they've attained those lower forms of life due to their work in the human form?

Prabhupāda: Yes. A criminal is freed, but if he again commits criminal..., criminality, then again he's put into the jail. Like that. [indistinct] ...his freedom, now make your choice. But if you misuse it, then again go. Mām aprāpya nivartante mṛtyuḥ saṁsāra vartmani [Bg. 9.3]. [break] ...go home back to Godhead. But if we do not take the chance, and misuse it, like animals, then again we go down. The process is to go back to home, back to Godhead, eternal life, blissful life. And other process is the cycle of birth and death in different species of life. So this human form of body is to make choice whether he wants to continue the cycle of birth and death in different species of life, or he wants to go home, back to Godhead. [break] ...mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām [Bg. 9.25]. He's Kṛṣṇa conscious when he goes back to home, back to Godhead. [indistinct] species of life, according to karma, they're going to be fish. From fish, by nature's way, leads to the plants, then insect. In this way... Then birds, then beasts, again human being. Again another birth. In this way they are... Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. Similarly, after many, many births, when he comes to his senses, that "I have enjoyed very much. Now let me go back home..." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti... . Mām prapadyante. [Bg. 7.14] = "Kṛṣṇa save me, take me." Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. Such mahātmā, great soul, who has accepted that Kṛṣṇa is everything, that is very, very rarely found. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu [Bg. 7.3]. After many, many millions.

Devotee (1): When one takes to spiritual life, is it the result of material exhaustion, or is it simply the guru's mercy on him, and nothing else?

Prabhupāda: Two ways. One is called sādhana-siddhi; one is called kṛpā-siddhi. What is your question?

Devotee (1): If when one comes to spiritual life, is he coming because of material exhaustion, so much pain in the material world, so therefore he's searching?

Prabhupāda: Voluntary.

Devotee (1): Voluntary.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (1): Ah.

Prabhupāda: When one is actually in service, then he comes to... "So I have enjoyed. Now no, I don't want. Now I want Kṛṣṇa." That is voluntary.

Devotee (1): But is it the guru? Does the guru give him that sense?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru is traveling all over the world, "Take this sense." If one is fortunate he can take.

Śukadeva: Those persons who are atheistic, they say that God is created out of a necessity, that people have a necessity to have their father image, so therefore they create religion. This is their basic philosophy, that man creates his own religion. He creates it out of necessity. He needs a father image, so therefore he creates the idea of God.

Prabhupāda: Created? What is that?

Śukadeva: No. They feel that we have created. Man has created the idea of God out of necessity.

Devotee (2): It's insecurity. He feels that the atheists are saying that man needs God, although there is no God. They are insecure in this world.

Prabhupāda: What is God?

Śukadeva: They feel basically that it's an idea. God is an idea.

Prabhupāda: Why it is idea? Explain. What for this idea? Why this idea is necessary?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Basically I think because in the Western countries there's no conception of God.

Prabhupāda: No... They.... Those who have no conception, that is another thing. But those who talk of God, that there is God or there is no God, what is the conception of God? That is... Why do they say there is no God? Why do they say there is God? Somebody accept there is God; somebody does not accept. So, what are the two causes?

Hari-śauri: The basic principle is that God is there, so you either accept or reject Him.

Prabhupāda: Yes. [laughs] One is doubtful or one is convinced. The God is there. One is doubtful, he says, "There is no God." My question is why the question of God is there?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: General consensus is that when one is in need of God, then they accept God. They don't think that out of knowledge...

Prabhupāda: Therefore I am asking what is the conception? Why they need, why they do not need? First of all describe food. There is some idea that "Food is like this." Then the question of food. If there is no need of food, then why is this food question?

Śukadeva: Just like the child wants to be protected by the parent, they're thinking that..., therefore people are feeling that they want to be protected by God.

Prabhupāda: So there is necessity of God.

Śukadeva: The child is always seeking protection from the parent.

Prabhupāda: Just like the child, there is necessity of the parents, and parent is there. Similarly, if you feel necessity of God, God is there. Feeling the necessity of parent, the parents are there. Similarly, if you feel necessity of God, then God is there.

Śukadeva: They say that because people are feeling this necessity, it is a crutch.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Necessity means there is. Otherwise why necessity? When you feel hungry, the necessity of food, food is there. Feel necessity of light, the sun is there.

Śukadeva: Do you mean, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that in order to conceive of something, a thing must exist?

Prabhupāda: There is no "conceive." Necessity. You require it. Just like when you're hungry you require food. Food is there. The eyes want to see; therefore the object of seeing is there. The hand wants to touch, so the object of touching is there. The nose wants to smell = the object of smell is there. So as soon as you feel necessity, the thing is there.

Hari-śauri: And it's there even if you don't feel the necessity.

Prabhupāda: Hah?

Hari-śauri: It's there even if you don't feel the necessity.

Prabhupāda: That is another position. First of all, as soon as you feel necessity, the object is there.

Śukadeva: They say that necessity should not be God, but that it should be transferred to man.

Prabhupāda: I am not talking of God. I say as soon as you feel necessity, the object is there.

Gopavṛndapāla: That necessity is our mistake. That is our insecurity.

Prabhupāda: So... [break] ...that is mistake, then you are rascal, that's all. Mistake is committed by rascal. So you are rascal. If you commit mistake, then you are a rascal. Then don't talk. Stop talking. [laughter] Who is going to hear a rascal? No sane man will hear. [break] ...feeling hungry, there is no necessity of food? Who is that rascal that will say, "No, there is no necessity of food"? He's feeling hungry, he wants to eat something, and if he says, "No, there is no necessity of food," then is he not rascal? And if you say, "Now we are feeling the necessity of food, but that is my mistake," is that answer?

Śukadeva: They're feeling that some people have the necessity for God, but actually...

Prabhupāda: Why? That is the question. Why some people have? That means some people intelligent, some people rascals. That's all. This is answer.

Śukadeva: The question is, why some people are feeling a necessity for God? That is the question they ask.

Prabhupāda: That is the difference between rascal and intelligent. Just like in Hawaii island, when the rascals were living, they did not feel the necessity of skyscraper. When intelligent Americans came, they feel the necessity. That is the difference. [laughter] Is that all right?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: "Necessity is the mother of invention." That is an English proverb. Is it not? So unless you feel necessity, you are rascal.

Hari-śauri: Well, taking that the other way...

Prabhupāda: Dull matter. Dull matter, it has no necessity. It is dull matter. And as soon as you have got life, there is necessity. Without feeling of necessity means dullness. Just like these Hawaiians, original inhabitants, they did not think the necessity of the skyscraper, motorcar or the [indistinct]. But when it was inhabited by the Americans, they felt necessity. That is the difference between advanced and not advanced.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can one say that necessity for eating, sleeping, mating and defending is animal life, and the necessity for God is advanced life?

Prabhupāda: Certainly. Necessity means more you become advanced, the more necessity. Necessity mother of invention. Advancement, they are manufacturing so many things. There is no necessity of car, but people are advanced, they are inventing = "Now comfortably I shall [indistinct]." So necessity means advanced life. No necessity means dull life. That's all.

Śukadeva: The atheists feel that they've put the necessity on the wrong object.

Prabhupāda: That means they're rascals. If there is no necessity, that means dull life, dull brain. The madman will think there is no necessity of clothing = "I can remain naked." And actually he remains. So he's a madman. And a sensible man, he'll require dress, nice dress, first-class dress. So this is the difference between intelligent and dull. Dull has no necessity. Intelligent has necessity.

Devotee (2): He has necessity for God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu [Bg. 7.3]. Out of millions and millions people, one has the necessity for Kṛṣṇa. [break] Material scientists, they are creating necessities, television, and they are thinking advanced. What is the use of television? There is no use. But this is advanced civilization.

Hari-śauri: In relative terms.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless there is necessity, what is the advancement? There is dull matter. Yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat [Bg. 7.5]. Apareyam. The dull matter is inferior energy. And the other prakṛti, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām, jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho, the living entities, they have got necessities. Dull matter, there are no necessities. The more one is dull, his necessities are less. And those who are advanced, his necessities begin.

Hari-śauri: Well, they use... They argue that, say like in India, where there's no great material development...

Prabhupāda: Then we shall judge the quality of necessity. That is another thing. First of all necessities, then quality.

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Prabhupāda: First of all we have to understand that one who has no necessity, he's in the lowest status. One who has got necessity, he is in the higher status.

Hari-śauri: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Then higher, higher, higher, higher---where's the higher status? When you necessitate Kṛṣṇa.

Hari-śauri: Yeah. [break]

Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahaprābhu = śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṇa me [Cc. Antya 20.39]. That necessity, that without Govinda I'm feeling everything vacant. That is necessity. That necessity is final.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is this the anna-maya, prāṇa-maya, mano-maya, like that?

Prabhupāda: There are so many stages. But here is the highest status = govinda-viraheṇa me. Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa. "For want of Govinda, I am thinking one moment as twelve years." Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam. "I'm crying like torrents of rain from my eyes." This is the highest necessity. This is also necessity. Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa cakṣuṣā prāvṛ..., śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvam. "I don't see anything. Everything is vacant." And that we have experience. If somebody whom you love very much, he dies, you think, "I don't want anything. World is vacant." I've no necessity but Kṛṣṇa. This is also necessity. So we have to see first of all necessity, then quality of necessity. This is knowledge. There is no necessity, means dull matter. Similarly, when there is no necessity of God, one is in the lowest stage of life, narādhama, animals, less than animal, narādhama, at least, lowest of mankind. If he does not feel the necessity of God, that means lowest of the mankind. Necessity of Caitanya Mahāprabhu also... Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣay... A Vaiṣṇava says that "I have no more necessity." But he has no more necessity of this false necessities, material world.

Hari-śauri: Anarthas.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Hari-śauri: Anarthas.

Prabhupāda: Anartha. [break] ...they stop here. No more this material necessities. But he does not know that he cannot live without necessities. That they do not know. They simply beget these false necessities. Just like disease. I do not want disease, but that does not mean I do not want health. [laughter] So these rascals, they are thinking that "We do not want anymore this material world. Brahma satyaṁ jagan mitya." But Vaiṣṇava says, "No, you must have the real thing, then you can cease from this unreal necessities." Otherwise after living for some time in brahma satya, then you'll come, "Oh, it is useless. I don't enjoy. Let me go again to open hospital, school, engage in something politics, no work." But he cannot do. Āruhya kṛccheṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. We are living entities. We require engagement, necessities. So give up necessities means these rascal necessities and hankering for. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He's sannyāsī. He has no necessity. Why He's crying for Govinda? He has given up the whole world, sannyāsī. And why He's crying for Govinda? That is real necessity. Govinda-viraheṇa me. Govinda necessity. The necessity is Govinda is not alone. There again life, again Vṛndāvana, again gopīs, again dancing, again eating, again everything. That necessity.

Śukadeva: As a necessity, this is a symptom of weakness...

Prabhupāda: Rascal, this weakness..., you are already necessity of so many things. Make all the necessities zero. At last we at least feel necessity of a woman. [laughing] That you cannot avoid. That's all. And then you'll be punished with shoes. [laughing] When you'll become a servant of woman, then you, "No, what is the necessity?" Become thief, you'll become rascal, rogue, you'll be beaten by shoes, and everything is gone. Now these are your necessities. The hippies, they have left no necessities, but the woman is there. [laughter] They have necessities there. Nature is so powerful you'll have to feel this necessity, and with this necessity you'll require so many necessities. [Sanskrit] They're talking like madmen. What the madman does not talk, and what the goat does not eat? [laughing] Means rascals only.

Hari-śauri: It boils down to this question of independence.

Prabhupāda: Hah?

Hari-śauri: They all want to be independent, but there's no chance. [break]

Śukadeva: ...in the kingdom of God, then he can become independent.

Prabhupāda: The idea of God is not for everyone. Only for the brāhmaṇas. Those who are brāhmaṇas at death, brahma-jānāti vibrāhmaṇa. Our process is to give them chance to hear. Then he'll get gradually idea, not immediate. In the beginning let him eat prasādam and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. [break] "My dear friend, please come. Chant with us, dance with us, and take prasādam." There will be no... [break] [end]