Room Conversation with Siddha-svarūpa Follower , Honolulu , 1976-05-03
Prabhupāda: ...by taking birth of any, whether the tree is taking birth or the ant is taking birth and the fish is taking birth. Everywhere, living entities, they are taking birth. That's all. And they are dying also. And between birth and death there is disease and old age. So during birth one cannot understand, because there is unconscious stage. Even the fetus is killed, it cannot under..., because fully unconscious stage. And there is life undoubtedly; otherwise how the fetus all of a sudden gets life? But these mūḍhas cannot see it. Here in this matter there is no life; therefore many thousands of years, if you kill, it will never show any symptom of life. But if there is life, at a time it will come to consciousness. Just like fainted man is lying like a dead man, but he is not dead; there is life. It is fainted, unconscious state. So because there is life, he may lie down in that unconscious state for two, three hours; again he'll come. It is common sense. And if a log, wood log, is lying flat, will it come to life, anything? But because these mūḍhas, they are taking that "Fetus has no life. Kill it, finish it and eat it..." It is going on. You know that?
Siddha-svarūpa follower: I imagined that it would soon go on, on a mass scale, that...
Prabhupāda: No, it will go, because they are becoming more mūḍhas. There is no intelligence. Therefore I say that we are giving this intelligence. This is the only movement to make these mūḍhas into intelligent. This is the only movement. Otherwise they are becoming more and more and more and more mūḍhas. So under the circumstances, if we also become mūḍhas, then who will make the other mūḍhas intelligent? That is my point. There are so many things. And the sa... I'll begin this, I mean to say, recitation of Sixth Canto. There are so many nice instructions. So this... [break] ...even they are kept to remain as mūḍhas, all other so-called attempts... There are many other attempts for awakening the human society to right platform, but their basic principle is wrong. They cannot do it. It is not possible.
Prabhupāda: So there is no kīrtana?
Gurukṛpā: Yeah. At seven.
Gurukṛpā: The āratika is at seven.
Hari-śauri: Five minutes.
Gurukṛpā: Ten minutes. Now it's tulasī worship.
Prabhupāda: So this movement should be pushed very vigorously. And so far, we have become successful. And enemies will be always, as soon as there is something good. That is the way of material world. Even Kṛṣṇa had enemies, what to speak of others. Eh? So many enemies, but He was powerful; He killed all the enemies. Nobody could kill Him, but there was attempt to kill Him from the very beginning of His birth. He had so many enemies. As soon as Kaṁsa heard that his sister is now newly married, but as soon as there was some foretelling, "Ah, you are taking care of your sister so nicely. The eighth child of this sister will kill you." "Oh, where is your child? Where is pregnancy?" Nothing. He became angry = "So why wait for eighth child? Kill my sister." [laughs] Long, long before taking birth of Kṛṣṇa, the mother was to be killed. This is the position of this material world. So he became so bad that "My sister..." He did not consider that "She is my sister, and she is just newly married. Where is pregnancy? Where is child? And that is the eighth child, and what will happen after that?" No consideration. Immediately, "Kill him..., kill her." This is the position.
So we are instructing = no intoxication. So those who are flourishing by selling cigarettes and wine and liquor, they do not... "Immediately kill him." Oh, yes, in this way. "If they, the movement goes and becomes very strong, then our business will be lost. Kill him." So naturally they will be enemies. The same thing, the Kaṁsa saw that "This my sister, now she is married. So although it will take some long time, but here is the cause." So they are thinking like that. No meat-eating---then all slaughterhouses will be closed = "They're enemy." Although there is no such symptom that slaughterhouse is going to be closed, but they'll think like that. They'll think like that, the same way. There is no ex... [break] ...pregnancy, first, second, third, then eighth, [laughs] and the child will go, take birth and... They are thinking like that. So the modern civilization, we are everyone saying. Because you have forbidden = no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat-eating, no gambling. The whole Western world living on these four pillars. Just see our position. And the same conscious way, everyone is thinking, "If this movement goes on, then how all these nightclubs will go on? How all breweries will go on? How all slaughterhouse will go on, cigarette factories will go on?" This is all foolish. So you cannot expect that we will get more..., many friends. That is not possible, because the world is full of Kaṁsas, demons. So we have to struggle and... In the face of so many obstacles we have come to this standard that there is one Hare Kṛṣṇa movement; it is very dangerous to the modern way of life. That much is great advance. They're feeling the pulse. Now when they are meeting, state obstacles. Everywhere we are meeting obstacles. In Singapore.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We went to the airport.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And practically they didn't even want to let us stay in the airport. We had to stay there only for four hours to catch the next flight. They are so much...
Prabhupāda: This is our position. Gradually they will show Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. In India also, although India's... They will want to crush down this movement. So this will be up to Him. Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṇa's movement, the same thing. And Kṛṣṇa was attempted to be killed by Kaṁsa class of men and his company, the demons. So it will be there; it is already there. Don't be disappointed, because that is the meaning that it is successful. Kṛṣṇa's favor is there, because Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's movement is not different---identical. So as Kṛṣṇa was attempted to be killed, many, many years before His appearance... At eighth child, if the mother produces child yearly, still ten years, eight years before His birth, the mother was to be attempted to be killed. So there may be attempt like that. And Lord Jesus Christ was killed. So they may kill me also.
Gurukṛpā: I don't think that is possible.
Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, I am not so important man. But it is the..., this is the way of. And now, if we become weak by factioning, then that is not good. We must be strong in our... But you do not expect that this movement will be accepted. In India the so-called yogīs, Ramakrishna Mission, they are also being afraid of us. There are so many. But if we remain sincere, even we are feeble, newborn, nobody can kill us. That is a fact. Just like Kṛṣṇa when He was three months old, attempt was made by Putanā to kill Him, but the Putanā was killed. A big demon, gigantic, six miles long, and what is killed by a small child playing on the..., sucking breast and sucking life. That is Kṛṣṇa. So the other day I have explained that by guru, he is accepted as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You have typed it?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Go on. Yes, guruṣu nara-matiḥ. Arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matiḥ. Narakī, if anyone thinks arca-vigraha, the Deities, as made of stone, made of earth, or made of something material, and guru, the spiritual master, "He is an ordinary man"---these are forbidden. So why guru is to be considered sākṣād dharitvena samasta-śāstrair, exactly the Supreme Personality of Godhead? That reason is given there. That reason is that he is giving the Kṛṣṇa knowledge; therefore he is as good as Kṛṣṇa. Even though his family members or his friend thinking, "Oh, he has now become guru," still he should be considered the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That reason also given there, that even Kṛṣṇa was taken as ordinary man, but does it mean that He has become ordinary? Similarly, any... Our movement, it may appear just like other movement, but because the movement is giving Kṛṣṇa, that means it is as good as Kṛṣṇa. This is the example. Ajñāya haña. It may appear to others... And there are so many movements, and the hippies have taken another shape, but it is not that. It is actually Kṛṣṇa so long it adheres to the principles as enjoined, as we have accepted. Otherwise it is ordinary movement. This same man, he's guru so long he gives the real knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. And the same man, he's ordinary man as soon as he cannot give. Same thing = just like a stone doll, when it is worshiped according to the regulative principles---Kṛṣṇa. And the same doll, kept in the sculptor's showroom, it is stone.
So if we keep our movement pure, then you are as strong as Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as we deviate from it, immediately ordinary. This is the secret. Now it is up to us how to keep it pure. Then no enemy can kill us. Nobody can kill. So that purity is wanted, then it will be successsful. So what is their difficulty? Their purity to kill them?[?] Follow the rules and regulations, worship the Deity and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, as we have given, then you will remain as strong as Kṛṣṇa. And if we manufacture some ideas, then it is gone. Kṛṣṇa cannot be manufactured; Kṛṣṇa is Kṛṣṇa. You cannot manufacture another competitor of Kṛṣṇa. That is not the way. Then failure. Just like the, one competitor came to, even in the lifetime of Kṛṣṇa, Pauṇḍraka.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: With artificial four hands. You know that? [laughs] That is no [indistinct]. This movement is actually the real movement to raise the human society. And if we create faction, then the movement will be less strong and will not act very nicely[?].
Prabhupāda: Australian dollar question is solved with you? And this check can be deposited.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think it will turn out OK.
Prabhupāda: But this dealing of the bank is very...
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not good. I know. I complained to the bank manager also.
Prabhupāda: So this is not right.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They said their hands were tied because the specimen signature on the check...
Prabhupāda: They give me writing check.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Why you are talking? Give me writing, that "This is not bona fide." Then we take this step, "Your check nonpayment = we will have to take steps. We wanted this money; we have deposited the money there, and you are not paying. What is this?"
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We are being inconvenienced by their mistake.
Prabhupāda: "So now you have to pay the damage. We did not carry the money, took a check, and immediately pay, now you have detained it. So you give me in writing why you are not paying. Then we shall take steps. We should not be punished." Sometimes they take advantage, "Oh, he is in a saffron cloth; he must be fool number one." [chuckles] They think it. [break] ...there will be no loss of commission.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not on the check.
Prabhupāda: No, check, there is no question. They can deposit immediately in our account. It is cashier's check; it has to be cashed immediately. So did you ask about the dollars, despatching to India?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No difficulty.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They said they would...
Prabhupāda: No, no difficult, but what is rate?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The rate, ah, 11.34... I have it written down. It's about 11.34 American cents equals one rupee.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I haven't converted into how many... I can do that.
Prabhupāda: 11.34, that is good rate. So I wish that we should combinedly work very vigorously. Why this bad seed? I don't like this. They are just like women, quarreling between themselves. Don't do it. You keep some women together, and they will fight. The children together, they will fight. Dogs together, they will fight. Sane man, why they will fight? Where is the cause of fighting? Then you are degraded to become woman. Worse. This material world is such that even you keep some utensil together, when dealing, tung, tung, tung, tung, tung, so what to speak of individuals, souls. But our cause is the common = how to push on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That soberness must be there. I can give you points, instructions; you will have to put it into shape. Otherwise how it will be possible?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can understand that Your Divine Grace does not want factions in your...
Prabhupāda: That will deter the movement.
Gurukṛpā: Sometimes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, it just seems there is a... The strife is, is that there seems to be a difference in the way Kṛṣṇa consciousness is being...
Prabhupāda: Why different?
Gurukṛpā: Well, there's only one way...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Why there should be different? The formula is there. Why there should be difference?
Gurukṛpā: Then there is someone who's not doing it properly according to the...
Prabhupāda: There is possibly; that should be settled up. Suppose you are not doing properly, I can say, "This is the rules. Why you are doing otherwise?" [break] Where is Govinda dāsī? Who is the giving[?] information? She is manufacturing some.
Gurukṛpā: I will find out. I will find out.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] In India, Punjab National give us 8.84.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: [aside:] No, that's all right. [break] That I want.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That we should work together.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is this [indistinct]?
Hari-śauri: There's no problem with..., as far as distributing Kṛṣṇa consciousness like that, but the thing is they simply don't want to cooperate with the ISKCON movement.
Prabhupāda: But why?
Hari-śauri: That no one knows. They simply just don't want to mix.
Prabhupāda: That we can settle up by sitting together. Why there should be difference?
Hari-śauri: Just like in New Zealand, originally they split from ISKCON, and now gradually you are bringing them back to the same standard again, like now you're encouraging them to build a temple and install Deities. That means they have to come up to the required standard, brahminical standard, again. So why was there any need to go away in the first place? But still they won't cooperate. Now they'll have to do it their own way. This is..., that's their problem.
Prabhupāda: One thousand. No, don't tear. It is written there, "One thousand."
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. But there's fifties and twenties. So it may not be... There's one fifty note, one hundred notes, twenty notes...
Prabhupāda: In that way...
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Usually, when they write like this, it's the same denomination.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, you can count, yes. [break]
Siddha-svarūpa follower: There are a lot of devotees there who follow the principles but cannot completely... [break] ...shaved up, and they still wear karmī clothes pretty much, but they're clean, they're devotees, and in this way they're attracting many of the local people, because they're able to relate to them.
Prabhupāda: So that...
Siddha-svarūpa follower: They're not lowering your standard.
Prabhupāda: No, let them. But when they are initiated they must shave. They must keep to the standard. If one becomes initiated and he still keeps the hippie form, that does not look nice. Do you think it is all right? No, that is not good. So long they are coming as outsider, joining kīrtana, they may have their own dress; it doesn't matter. They are coming to kīrtana. That much is all right. But when they are to be initiated, they must follow the rules and regulations given by the spiritual master.
Siddha-svarūpa follower: So...
Prabhupāda: Otherwise they should not be initiated. It is simple thing. Let them go on chanting, taking prasādam; we have no objection. But when they are to be initiated, they must follow. This is the clear acceptance. If you don't want to disturb them, let them come, chant, dance, take prasādam. We have no objection. But don't recommend them for initiation unless he agrees to the rules and regulations given by the spiritual master. Where is the wrong? Where is the difficulty? You can talk with him like that.
Siddha-svarūpa follower: I think they only feel that because...
Prabhupāda: No, no feeling. If you..., when you are surrendering to the spiritual... Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. Find out this verse. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā.
upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ
"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Enquire from him submissively..."
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa = [indistinct]
Prabhupāda: Hmm? One hundred? Hmm.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One thousand and twenty.
Hari-śauri: "Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Enquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth."
Prabhupāda: You have to submit. You cannot remain independent. That is the first condition. Śiṣyas te 'haṁ. Śiṣya. Śiṣya means voluntarily accepting the rules offered by the spiritual master. That is śiṣya: "Ah, yes, I agree to abide by your order." Then he becomes śiṣya. Otherwise where is the question of? "I am thinking like this, I am thinking..." So long you are thinking otherwise, you don't try to become a śiṣya. You remain outside, and you are welcome = chant, dance, take prasādam and remain independent. There is no objection. But when you become śiṣya, then you cannot remain independent. These things convince him. Then you don't become śiṣya. Remain as friend; there is no harm. Just like so many people, they come. [aside:] So keep these things [indistinct]. One thousand twenty, checks, not one thousand. This way, what is the wrong there?
Hari-śauri: So that point of initiation means that you're prepared to do something more than simply chant and eat prasādam?
Prabhupāda: Initiation means you surrender to the spiritual master. That is the first qualification. And if there is still hesitation to surrender to the rules and regulations and honor such spiritual master, they should not become.
Siddha-svarūpa follower: I think it is pretty clear to me, Prabhupāda. It's just for clarification, that they're working, they have a store on Maui, there is a very nice store. They're distributing foodstuffs to all the other stores on the island, and they're working a lot within the society with the karmīs, like this. So their thinking is that "If we shave our heads and wear robes, and like that, then it will..., they will not look at us...
Prabhupāda: That is not... Don't become initiated. Officially don't... Chant. Who is prohibiting to chant? You can chant, you can dance, you can take prasādam.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can they actually say that "His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda is my spiritual master" if they haven't accepted all of the instructions?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can one actually say that my spiritual master is such-and-such person if I am not following all of the...
Prabhupāda: What is the use of calling that I am spiritual master? If you have not accepted him, spiritual master, what is the use? False propaganda. Because you think that "We could not accept at first, but we are trying to follow his instructions."
Devotee: That's honest.
Hari-śauri: One of the differences that first sprung up between the two groups was that one group was going out when you were saying, "Go out and distribute the books profusely," so they were going and distributing. And they had various means of doing it. Some were not so good, but still the books were going out. Then the group that split away, they were saying, "Ah, you're disturbing the public by these methods of book distribution. We don't want..." This is what happened in Australia, the one temple in Brisbane. They became very much against the saṅkīrtana methods, and as a result they gave up the saṅkīrtana program altogether and then went to live on farms like this, and they left the temple, and the temple was finished. So like this, they were saying that "We're still following Prabhupāda's instructions, but we..." But they were saying that the devotees who were distributing the books, they were not following instructions. Like that.
Prabhupāda: "His Divine Grace has said that 'You distribute book,' and why do you say that?"
Hari-śauri: Well, their idea was that because sometimes the public is becoming disturbed by the book distribution, then therefore it's not being done correctly, so it should be stopped.
Prabhupāda: Public may be disturbed, but we are following our own course of action. It is not obligatory. We are requesting you, "Take this book." That is not obligatory. If you like, you can take. If you don't like, don't take.
Siddha-svarūpa follower: I think that...
Hari-śauri: So what their idea was that we shall build some public relations, like you said with this store. They prefer to try to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness by public relations, give good impression, and then people will come.
Prabhupāda: Then you are dictated by the public, not by the dictation of your spiritual master. Spiritual master has ordered to distribute books; we shall do that. That is obedience. Now, the public may take or not take, that is public's option. But my duty is---because spiritual master has said---I must try my best. Spiritual master has not said that "You must sell so many books daily, otherwise I will reject you." He has not said like that. So everyone may try his best, that's all. The public may take or not take, it doesn't matter. And if you are..., want to please the public, public says that "You dance naked, I will be very much pleased, I will give you some money." So I'll have to do that. Then what is the use of making a spiritual master? Public, they have got their whims how to become pleased. So we have to follow all these things? We have to follow our instruction of the spiritual master. That is initiation. Why do you manufacture, "The public will be pleased like this"? Public may or may not be pleased; we don't care.
Hari-śauri: Our success is in the spiritual master's pleasure, not the public's pleasure.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is bhakti. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]? "You haven't got to please so many religious instructions. You simply please Me." That is Kṛṣṇa's idea.
Siddha-svarūpa follower: I don't think the devotees who factioned off were against book distribution. I think that a little bit was that some of the devotees were using very, very forceful tactics and trying to give people books and take their money, and people were becoming very offended...
Prabhupāda: That is not required.
Siddha-svarūpa follower: That is not what you want.
Hari-śauri: That's all right, but don't give up the book distribution.
Siddha-svarūpa follower: Yes.
Hari-śauri: This is what happened. The temples fell down, the devotees went away. The ones who were distributing the books went on and distributed more books, became more expert, so that the public were not so much disturbed, and still they're distributing books. But these people who factioned off are not distributing books even now, two or three years later. So it was simply actually a question of faultfinding more than an earnest desire to please the spiritual master.
Prabhupāda: So discuss.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jaya. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. [end]