Room Conversation , Fiji , 1976-05-02

Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. Everyone sees that "Some way or other, I become guru. Then so many persons will offer me respect. Somehow or other, create some situation. Then I become guru." This is going on. Not bona fide guru. Bona fide guru is indicated by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā: "Become guru." Why ambition? Actually become guru. But how to become guru? Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa-upadeśa' [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. That's it; otherwise goru. So they will not take this simple method. They will drink, they will hunt after woman and have some attractive singing or dancing and become guru. What is meaning of guru, they do not know. Somehow or other become popular and become guru. This is going on. So with māyā you can attract these foolish rascals very easily, if you can manufacture. You cannot, but if you can show some jugglery, then you become guru. People are after all these things, material things. They are not after Kṛṣṇa. They are after money and women. So if you give some mantra, then gold will be manufactured, and all women will be attracted, very first class.

Gurukṛpā: You know, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they say that if anyone has power to induce anybody to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, therefore they must have some special power. Therefore that's their qualification.

Prabhupāda: That special power, that is said in the śāstras. But people do not want that.

Gurukṛpā: Just like, for example, in Bengal before, there was that Charan das Babaji. He induced them to chant the wrong mantra, but where is... He's not specifically paramparā.

Prabhupāda: No. He chanted for some time and, of course, there was chanting of nitāi-gaura. He introduced new system of chanting = nitāi-gaura rādhe-śyāma. So the nitāi-gaura chanting will have some effect, Kali-yuga. Although he was presenting pervertedly, the beginning was nitāi-gaura, so it would have some effect. He did not know actually Nitāi-Gaura, from his words, it appears. He used to preach that Nitāi is Rādhārāṇī, and Gaura is Kṛṣṇa. That is siddhānta-viruddha. But some way or other, he was chanting nitāi-gaura. So some effect were there. Just like sandalwood. You do not know which way better pulp comes out, but if you rub any way some pulp will come, because it is sandalwood. So he had some effect of chanting nitāi-gaura, but later on they deteriorated because they did not know actually, neither they were taught. Siddhānta-viruddha. The siddhānta-viruddha means it will deteriorate; it will not endure.

Gurukṛpā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what about, say, many of your Godbrothers? They also have disciples, and they also are properly initiated by a proper spiritual master, and they give the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.

Prabhupāda: The thing is the spirit, real service of preaching, stopped. Formality is going on, but the real business... Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement means āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. That is stopped. Do you follow? The formalities is there, but the real life of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is preaching. Otherwise why Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa? Tāra means preach. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa-upadeśa' [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. And that is stopped. They are satisfied if they could construct one temple and beg some rice from the neighborhood = "Sir, we have got some temple." That's all. They are satisfied. The spirit of preaching forward---pāpī tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo---that is stopped. So by hari-nāma, by chanting, by this way, to live little peacefully in the temple and eat and sleep, that much they have got. If that is the success, that success they have got. And this was condemned by my Guru Mahārāja, that "To earn some money by showing Deity in the temple and eat and sleep---better you become a sweeper in the street and earn your honest livelihood and live." This is cheating. This was condemned. To construct a temple... Just like the Vṛndāvana gosvāmīs are doing. They thought that "This is our business. Some innocent people will come here and offer some... Bās, that's our good income." According to the temple's popularity, they think, "This is our success." Therefore they are deteriorating. So that is not success. Success is he is who is pushing forward the preaching method. That is his success. And if we think that "By showing a temple Deity we get some money and rice and cloth and just peacefully live here. Don't bother about going to Fiji and all over..." [laughs] That much success they have got. But that is not Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma, sarvatra pracāra. [CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126] What they are doing for that? That is point.

Gurukṛpā: What if sometimes a disciple, he may go to preach, but he's not preaching in the exact same spirit of his spiritual master?

Prabhupāda: Therefore he is not to be preached. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41] = "Go to do good to others, first of all you do good to yourself." First of all you become really preacher. Then go to preach. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never sent neophyte to go to preach. For neophyte the preaching is not their business. For neophyte, one should stick to the worship of Deity in the temple. And those who have understood the philosophy, applied the philosophy in his life, he should go for preaching. Otherwise he'll preach wrongly, like... What is that? Charan das Babaji. And it will stop. He wanted to preach, but he did not know how to preach, and therefore, after his life, it is finished. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu does not say like that, that "You remain a rascal and go to preach." No. Janma sārthaka kari. "Your first business is that you make your life perfect. Then go to preach. 'Perfect' means you learn how to obey My orders." That is perfection. Āmāra ājñāya. So if you are actually, perfectly carrying out the orders of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then you are preaching. Otherwise you will do wrongly, mislead. Don't do that. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. If you remain blind, don't try to lead other blind men. That is misleading. First of all open your eyes. Everything is there. Nobody can do anything whimsically. If you do whimsically, concoctedly, that will be failure. It will not be effective.

Gurukṛpā: Even though one may get many followers, that is not...

Prabhupāda: Many? What you...? Many followers... The philosophy you present, it must be followed by everyone. That is wanted. You have got, say, ten thousand followers. That does not mean success. Everyone has got some followers. This... What is that? Guru-ji Maharaja. He has got also so-called followers. The T.M., he has got also some followers. Everyone has got some followers. But what kind of followers they have? That is quality. Everything has quality. Simply quantity is not. There are many Christians. Even up to date, some Christian fair or..., many millions will come. What is the quality? Quality is all meat-eater. But Christian means he should not kill. Where is the Christian? So we have to test by the quality, followers. Not many followers; the quality of the followers. My Guru Mahārāja used to say like that, that "If I get at least one quality disciple, then all my labor will be success." He was saying like that = quality, not the quantity. By quantity if one is amazed, then he is also goru. By quality---what kind of followers? That is the... From the very beginning my strictures are there, that "You have to follow this"---quality. If I were..., "No, you can do like Vivekananda. Yes, what you can, whatever you like," then I think quantity would have been very, very big. But I don't say. I make him promise before the fire, before the Deity, before guru. [break]

That one moon is taken into account. Who takes account of millions of stars? Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasraśaḥ [Cāṇakya Paṇḍita]. Quality. So we should be quality devotee, not quantity devotee. [drinking] Hmm. I have taken two glasses. Just see how nice water is, tap water. Here so many ḍābs are available, and this rascal is manufacturing RC [Royal Crown cola], and he is going as to be..., as business. And for hearing Bhagavad-gītā they have no time, and they are trying to go to Vṛndāvana. Quantity, not quality. So civilization should be quality civilization, not quantity civilization. Do that. Bheḍyadāsana. Bheḍyadāsana. Bheḍī, lamb, they are going, hundreds and thousands flocks. So, and if one bheḍī, lamb, is somehow or other pushed into slaughterhouse stockroom, so all the..., all of them. You haven't got to take many. Some way or other, you induce one of them to go into the, what is called, shed, where stocks are kept for taking out daily and killing. So they do not mind that "We are being pushed into this room for future killing. Never mind. One has gone. Go." They'll go. So this is called, in Hindi, bheḍyadāsana, that without any consideration, "One has entered. Let us all enter." That is bheḍī, means animal. Their disciple like this.

[pause]

Prabhupāda: They liked the ceremony?

Gurukṛpā: I think we should tell... Vāsudeva dāsa is getting his brāhmaṇa thread this afternoon?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Gurukṛpā: Are you giving him his brāhmaṇa initiation this afternoon?

Prabhupāda: He has come?

Gurukṛpā: No.

Prabhupāda: We can do that tomorrow. So it has been settled where we are going?

Gurukṛpā: Well, I have to go to the airport this evening.

Prabhupāda: No, with Vāsudeva.

Gurukṛpā: Yes. He is... He thought it was best.

Prabhupāda: Don't do anything...

Gurukṛpā: No, it was his suggestion, because he doesn't want it to be another small program. He feels...

Prabhupāda: This is also cold water?

Hari-śauri: It was. It's still cold.

Prabhupāda: Darwin's theory is body is changing, but why it is changing, he does not explain.

Gurukṛpā: He said it's the course of nature. You can't explain nature. That's his only answer.

Prabhupāda: Nature... But we also say, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni [Bg. 3.27]. So it is to be understood that it is being done under superior control. If nature is doing, so nature is superior control. He cannot explain. So if he does not know how nature is working, then what is the value of his theory? If he says that he cannot explain how nature is doing, that means he is not expert. He may be mistaken. So why his opinion or decision should be taken final? He does not know how nature is working. That is not perfect knowledge. Does he say like that, "Nature is working"?

Gurukṛpā: Nature.

Prabhupāda: So how nature is working, he does not know. Then his knowledge is imperfect. Nature is working how, that we know. That is very sober understanding. We say that nature is working under the superintendence of Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. Nature... We see nature. Generally we have got idea of the material nature, that the sun is one of the part and parcel of nature's working. The moon is also, the seasonal changes. So many things, nature is working very systematically. The summer season will appear exactly in the month of June and July. The fall begins in September every year. One can foretell that "Next September this will happen," because nature's routine is very fixed up. So this systematic work of nature, how it is possible if there is no supervision?

Gurukṛpā: What they do is they just take it for granted, because it's happening so regularly.

Prabhupāda: So that means you have to accept it---there is superior administration. You may not know what is that administration, but you have to accept it. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, "Under My supervision." Here those who are in the gross ignorance, not intelligent, they can suggest that there is some brain, just like Professor Einstein used to say. But he has no knowledge who is that brain, and we have that knowledge, who is that brain. That brain is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore our knowledge is perfect. They can simply suggest that "There is a brain," but we can say, "Here is the brain." Then it is... If one knows whose brain it is, that is perfect knowledge.

Gurukṛpā: But they have no faith. That's the only difficulty.

Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. You accept some brain. But if somebody comes who is accepted as the brain, they have no faith. That means rascal. Nārada says, "Here is the brain." Brahmā says, "Here is the brain." Śiva says, "Here is the brain." Then ācāryas, Vyāsadeva, says, "Here is the brain." Then modern ācāryas, they say, "Here is the brain." Then why don't you accept? You are so rascal? Just like a person is going to London. So if he says, "I have no faith that this Quantas will carry me to London," then how he will be convinced? How he'll be? If he says that "I have no faith in this Quantas company, that it will carry me to London," and if he does not purchase the ticket---he has no faith---then who will be loser? The Quantas company will be loser or he will be loser? Hmm?

Gurukṛpā: He's the loser.

Prabhupāda: The rascal who says... You can say that, that Quantas will carry him to London. You can say that. But if on account of this wrong faith if he does not purchase the ticket, then who will be loser? The Quantas will be loser or he will be loser? If you have no faith, then you are loser. You remain. Rot in this place. Do not try to go to London. What do you think? Eh?

Indian man (1): The traveler is the loser.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Gurukṛpā: The traveler is the loser.

Prabhupāda: Yes, traveler is the loser. If you have no faith, then loser. You are loser. You will never understand. Therefore śāstra says, mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. Big, big stalwart ācāryas, mahājanas, they are accepting; therefore we accept. That is sense. And if you sit down, "No, no, I have no faith," you'll sit down and remain a rascal, that's all. Ādau śraddhā. Therefore faith is the first thing. Ādau śraddhā. If he has got intelligence, he'll see = "So many big, big... Lord Brahmā accepts. Lord Śiva accepts. Vyāsadeva accepts. Nārada accepts. The ācāryas accept. So am I more than them? No. I will accept." And that is perfection of... Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. And if still you remain faithless, then you are rascal. Same example can be..., Quantas. So many hundreds are purchasing ticket. They have also never seen London, but on faith they're purchasing ticket. So you have no faith, you don't purchase; therefore remain here. Without faith you cannot begin to work. The same example = You have gone to a barber shop. He is shaving, and people blindly closing eyes, and he has got a razor. He can immediately cut. But why do you do this? Because you have faith that "These people are professional barbers. They are shaving so many other people. They will not kill me. All right. Go on." This is faith. And if you have no faith, then you will never have clean shaven. You go away.

So beginning is faith, but faith should not be blind. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. You have to take faith from great personalities. That is faith. Just like you American boys and girls, you began with faith. Without faith nothing can be... Ādau śraddhā. Just like people come, and they get some faith that "So many people are following Swāmījī." So he associates for some time, then he offers himself for initiation. This is the way. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā [Cc. Madhya 23.14]. And bhajana-kriyā, if he agrees with spiritual master and takes his word, then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Spiritual master says, "You should not do this," and if he follows, then automatically his unnecessary burden is cleansed. This is the way. But faith is the beginning. And that is quite natural. Faith means by seeing others, respectable persons, following, "And why not I shall follow?" That is faith. That is not also blind. You can see that so many others are doing, "So why not I myself?"

Gurukṛpā: This faith in the mundane religions, that cannot be called real faith?

Prabhupāda: No, that is faith, but because one is not intelligent, he takes irreligion as religion. He does not... He should be also very intelligent, faithful and intelligent. Not blind faith. He must be faithful, and intelligence... He must know what is actually religion. So therefore sādhu-saṅga [Cc. Madhya 22.83]. Associate with sādhus means those who are actually on the platform. So if he associates with the sādhu---the sādhus accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead---he will get the understanding that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. Then his faith becomes fixed up in Kṛṣṇa. This is the way.

Gurukṛpā: So what is the exact meaning of that verse, śraddhā-śabde? That verse...

Prabhupāda: Yes, śraddhā. That faith increase, and when it is increased so much that he fully understands, "By worshiping Kṛṣṇa, everything is done," that is first-class faith. Śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa kahe sudṛḍha niścaya [Cc. Madhya 22.62]. If he becomes fixed up, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality," that is first class, means fulfillment of faith. In the beginning it might be doubtful, neophyte. But when that is..., that faith is fixed up, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality," that is the fulfillment of faith. Faith also there are different stages, improvement. Devotional service means different grades of faith. Today I am in one stage of faith, next day another stage, next day another stage, next day another stage. And when you come to the stage that vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19], oh, that is final. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That takes time. And quickly also, if one is fortunate. If one is intelligent---"The śāstra says, 'Vāsudeva is everything,' so why not take Vāsudeva as everything?"---then he gains the result immediately. And if he thinks, "All right, let me see for some time," so he may waste his time, but the point is the same. Point is the same, but he has not developed his faith to such extent. He'll have to wait. And intelligent person, he says, "Why shall I wait? Let me take finally vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. That business is finished." Sa mahātmā. Therefore it is said, sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ.

That kind of staunch faith is not very easy. It is for the great personality. Immediately accepts. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Immediately accepts = "Yes." Then sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That is not very easily done. That means yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām [Bg. 7.28]. He is completely free from all reaction of sinful life. Puṇya-karmaṇām---he is only engaged in pious activities. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānām, te dvandva-moha... He has no more, I mean, doubt. Dvandva-moha-nirmuktāḥ. He has no doubt = "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person." That's it. That's all. If you take by argument, reason, you may waste your time. But if you are intelligent, you can take it on the evidence of mahājano yena gataḥ, all the mahājanas.

They are mahājanas. "Prahlāda has taken, Bhīṣmadeva has taken, Janaka Mahārāja has taken, Lord Brahmā has taken, Lord Śiva has taken, Nārada has taken, Kapila has taken... What I am?" [laughs] That is intelligence. "Why I am waiting on my intelligence?" That is real. But this rascal is thinking more than Brahmā, Nārada, Kapila, Prahlāda. He is thinking he is more than them. That means rascal, overintelligent. Overintelligent means rascal. Intelligence means you must have reason. And if he is going beyond reason, only depending on himself, then he is overintelligent rascal. You understand overintelligent rascal? Don't be overintelligent. That is very risky. Be intelligent. Overintelligent means rascal. Spoiling. Just like milk = you are heating, and if you give overheat, spoil so many. That kind of heating is not required. You just push on heat as much required. Otherwise you'll spoil by your intelligence.

Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda? They say that one should try to... In order to approach the spiritual master one must...

Prabhupāda: Purchase?

Devotee (2): Approach. Approach.

Prabhupāda: Ah, approach.

Devotee (2): One must become perfect disciple. One must approach a perfect spiritual master, and he must become perfect disciple. Could you explain that, please?

Prabhupāda: Yes. He should follow spiritual master. Then he is perfect disciple. [aside:] Bring water with ice.

Devotee (2): So some... This Gauḍīya Maṭha... [break] [end]