Room Conversation with Minister Dixon, State Minister for Social Services , Melbourne , 1976-04-23

Devotee (1): ...social welfare, and also he's minister for sport and recreation. He has come to see you, and this is his secretary.

Mr. Dixon: Well, I am very pleased to have the opportunity of meeting you.

Prabhupāda: Sit down.

Mr. Dixon: How long have you been in Australia?

Prabhupāda: Just up to Sunday. Monday we are going?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we were here on the twentieth of July. We'll be here until Monday.

Mr. Dixon: What's the main reason for your visit?

Prabhupāda: Preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, about Kṛṣṇa. You have seen our books, our... Show him.

Devotee (1): Have you seen Prabhupāda's books? The book I was just showing you?

Mr. Dixon: I am not very familiar with the books.

Prabhupāda: We have got very good response for accepting our books all over the world, Kṛṣṇa books.

Mr. Dixon: The reason that I was most interested to come is that my responsibilities in Victoria are a lot to do with the growth of our young people, and I think that many of the things that we don't succeed in doing, the problems that we have with drugs and alcohol and all sorts of unhappiness, that what your life indicates has got something that I think we could do well to take parts of it, to be involved in the things, the way in which we live. And I'd be interested to hear from you as to what you would believe might be done to encourage a greater acceptance of your areas of philosophy and religion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Our philosophy is to purify, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Our philosophy is to purify the core of the heart from all dirty things. This is the basic principle of our philosophy, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam, cleansing the core of the heart. So just this morning several boys and girls became initiated. So our first promise is, before the Deity, before the fire, before the Vaiṣṇavas, before the spiritual master, that from this day no more illicit sex, no more intoxication, no more meat-eating, no more gambling. This is the first initiation. Then chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Very simple method. But one cannot practice these things without association of devotees. Nobody can do it outside. But here they are able; immediately they give up. All these boys, they were addicted to all these habits, but since they have come to the association, immediately they have given up, instantly. So you can bring any number of young men, and we shall be glad to make him free from all these things, practically engage him. It is open. If you like, you can take advantage.

Mr. Dixon: Yes. I am thinking more in terms of our general education system, for example.

Prabhupāda: This is the best education. Our education begins when we learn to see all women as mother. That is the beginning of education.

Mr. Dixon: When we learn...

Prabhupāda: It doesn't require Ph.D. degrees to train him in such a way that a person will see, except his married wife, all women as mother.

Mr. Dixon: Women as...?

Prabhupāda: All women.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: As mother.

Mr. Dixon: As mother.

Prabhupāda: Mother. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu. This is the original system of education in India, mātṛvat para-dāreṣu, to think of all women except his own wife as mother. Para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat: "Others' money as the garbage in the street." Nobody touches the garbage. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu [Cāṇakya-śloka 10] = "And one who sees all other living entities on the level of himself..." If you feel pinching, why should you pinch others? If one learns these three things, he is paṇḍita, he is learned. And another three things,

bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ
suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati

When you accept Kṛṣṇa, or God... When I say Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa means God. God is the proprietor of everything. Just take for example the United Nation. They are going and making noise, full speeches, for the last fifty years, but the fighting is going on. But they do not... Why do they not pass a resolution that "This earth planet..." Take... Only take this earth planet, earthly planet. Other you leave aside. "This is the property of God, and we are all sons of God. Let us enjoy the property of the..." But you will not allow. You Australian, you have got so much land. You won't allow anybody to come, because you think it is your land.

Mr. Dixon: Yes, I think, ah, if you're looking at the...

Prabhupāda: No, no, this is the principle. Actually it is not your land. You come from Europe.

Mr. Dixon: I agree that it's not.

Prabhupāda: But you are now claiming it is your land. The Africans, they are claiming... So much land, you can produce ten times food grains for as many population as there are. Ten times milk is required, food grain is required. That is the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44].

Mr. Dixon: If we produced all of the foods that we could produce and we literally gave them away to other countries that need them, we'd produce a tremendous disincentive in those countries for their own production. I don't think it's as easy, the world...

Prabhupāda: Production... You take the total land as God's property, and all the population, they are sons of God. Then whole problem solved. Everything solved. If economic problem is solved, then social, political, religious, philosophical, everything is solved.

Mr. Dixon: If there was exchange without money, I think you'd be right.

Prabhupāda: No money required. No money required. Simply one is required to work to produce food grain. That's all. No money required. And God has given us so much land that we can produce food grain and we can keep cows' milk, and from milk we derive so many rich, nutritious, full of vitamins foodstuff that the whole economic question solved immediately. But we are producing... Instead of food grain, we are producing tobacco for smoking cigarette. We are producing coffee for going to hell. So how you can expect social reformation? In Africa I have seen = instead of producing grain, they are producing coffee, tea, and keeping the cows for killing, making business to sell meat to other countries.

Mr. Dixon: Is incense a form of intoxication?

Prabhupāda: Incense? No. Why intoxication?

Mr. Dixon: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Incense keeps the atmosphere very nice, fresh.

Mr. Dixon: Very sweet-smelling.

Gurukṛpā: This flower is not intoxicating.

Prabhupāda: It is just like in your country, what is that fragrance? Scent. Scent.

Gurukṛpā: Perfume?

Prabhupāda: Perfume is very popular.

Mr. Dixon: But I would have thought that in some ways it might perform the same sort of function for some people as, say, smoking some cigarettes performs for others.

Prabhupāda: No.

Mr. Dixon: In other words, it...

Prabhupāda: That depends on the particular man, what kind of flavor he wants. That is another thing. But there are different varieties of incense. Generally we use rose flavor, sandalwood flavor. We offer to the Deity room to keep the atmosphere very favorable. This is, originally in India it was dhūpa. They used to put in the fire some flavored hulls, and it was very nice. That has been transferred into now stick incense.

Mr. Dixon: The stricture on the eating of meat, does that derive from the fact that animals have their lives which are accorded...

Prabhupāda: No, vegetable, vegetable has got life.

Mr. Dixon: Yes. What I'm asking is that because animals have a higher priority in life than vegetables?

Prabhupāda: No question of priority. Our philosophy is that we are servant of God. So God will eat, and whatever remnants of foodstuff He'll left, that we shall take. So in the Bhagavad-gītā... [aside:] You find out this verse = patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. Just like you have come here. So if I want to offer you something for eatable, it is my duty to ask you, "Mr. Nixon, which foodstuff you'll like to eat?" So you dictate, "I like this very much." Then, if I offer you that foodstuff, then you become pleased. So we have called Kṛṣṇa in this temple, so we are waiting, what foodstuff He wants to eat. So He said that...

Gurukṛpā: "If one offers me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it."

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam. He is asking very simple thing which everyone can offer. Just like a little leaf, patram; a little flower, puṣpam; a little fruit; and little liquid, either water or ghee, er, milk. So we offer that. We make different varieties with these ingredients, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam [Bg. 9.26], and after Kṛṣṇa's eating, we take it. We are servant; we take the remnants of foodstuff left by Kṛṣṇa. We are neither vegetarian nor nonvegetarian. We are prasād-ian. We don't care for vegetable or not vegetable, because either you kill a cow or kill a vegetable, the sinful action is there. And according to nature's law, it is said that "The animals which has no hand, that is the food for the animals with hands." We are also animals with hands. We human being, we are also animal with hands, and they are animals---no hand but four legs. And there are animals which has no leg; that is vegetable. Apadāni catuṣ-padām [SB 1.13.47]. These animals which has no leg, they are food for the animals with four leg. Just like cow eats grass, the goat eats grass. So eating vegetable, there is no credit. Then the goats and the cows are more credit, have more credit, because they don't touch anything except vegetable. So we are not preaching to become goats and cows. No. We are preaching that you become servant of Kṛṣṇa. So whatever Kṛṣṇa eats, we eat. If Kṛṣṇa says that "Give me meat, give me eggs," so we shall offer Kṛṣṇa meat and eggs, and we shall take it. So don't think that we are after vegetarian, nonvegetarian. No. That is not our philosophy. Because either you take vegetable or you take meat, you are killing. And you have to kill, because otherwise you cannot live. That is nature's way.

Mr. Dixon: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So we are not for that way.

Mr. Dixon: Well, why do you put the stricture on...

Prabhupāda: Stricture in this way = no meat-eating, because cow protection is required. We require milk. And instead of taking milk, if we eat the cows, then where is milk?

Mr. Dixon: So milk is very important.

Prabhupāda: Very, very important.

Mr. Dixon: In terms of the production of food for the world, the world would be much better off without eating animals.

Prabhupāda: No, milk is required. Some fatty vitaminous food is required. That necessity is supplied by milk. Therefore specifically...

Mr. Dixon: Couldn't you get all the necessity you require from grains?

Prabhupāda: Grains, no. Grains, they are starch. According to medical science, we require four different groups = starch, carbohydrate, protein and fat. That is full food. So you can get all these things by eating rice, ḍāl, mean pulses, and wheat, and... These things contain... Pulses and wheat contains protein. And milk also contains protein. So protein we require. Fat we get from milk. Fat is required. And vegetables, carbohydrate; and food grain, starch. So if you prepare nice foodstuff with all these ingredients, you get full..., and offer to Kṛṣṇa, then it is purified. Then you are free from all sinful activities. Otherwise, even if you kill vegetable, you are sinful because it has got life. You have no right to kill another life. But you have to live on life. This is your position. Therefore the solution is that you take prasādam. If there is sin by eating vegetable or meat, it goes to the eater. We take the remnants, that's all.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You follow?

Mr. Dixon: Not exactly.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The food that we take is first offered to Kṛṣṇa in the temple, so Kṛṣṇa is the first to eat. And Kṛṣṇa demands that "You offer Me this particular sorts of foodstuff." So one becomes free from all sinful reactions by first offering to Kṛṣṇa the foodstuff. Not only are you eating, but also you become freed from sinful reaction.

Mr. Dixon: I see.

Prabhupāda: Don't think we are vegetarian. We can become anything, provided it is eaten from the remnants of foodstuff left by Kṛṣṇa. This is our thing. To become vegetarian... There are many animals who are vegetarians. The monkeys are vegetarian; the goats are vegetarian; the cows are vegetarian. So that is not a good qualification, to become vegetarian and become an animal, or to become lion, tiger, dog. So either you are vegetarian or meat-eater... There are many animals. So we are not going to be animals. We are going to become human being. This is our philosophy. Grouping ourself to the vegetarian kingdom or nonvege..., the animals. The tiger is a great nonvegetarian. Fresh blood they want to eat, drink.

Mr. Dixon: Your Grace, do you keep in touch with the world through television or newspapers or the media?

Prabhupāda: Yes, many newspaper, many television men, they come. But we speak our philosophy plainly.

Mr. Dixon: Do you watch TV yourself?

Prabhupāda: No, we have no business. We don't wish to waste our time.

Mr. Dixon: Do you read newspapers?

Prabhupāda: No. What is newspaper? "This man is killed. This man has stolen. This politician has captured the government." So why shall I waste in the time?

Mr. Dixon: How do you become informed as to certain events? Is that...

Prabhupāda: We have got enough books to read, these books. If you read our books, in your whole lifetime you cannot finish it. And that is required to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is success of life. So why should... Of course, we are in touch in the newspaper, but as much as it is required. We are in touch with the material world as much as it is required. We are interested in Kṛṣṇa. To help our Kṛṣṇa consciousness we may be in touch with the material world as much as possible. Just like we are riding car also, we are also using Dictaphone, everything, but it is not for any ulterior purpose. It is for Kṛṣṇa's service. Just like we are writing books. This is Kṛṣṇa's service. People may understand about Kṛṣṇa, be benefited. This is our... And in that way we are printing books, we are selling books, we are writing books.

Mr. Dixon: How many people are in the Kṛṣṇa movement in the world, about?

Prabhupāda: About ten to twelve thousand, directly dedicated. Otherwise millions, they are reading our books. They have sympathy. We are selling books very nicely, daily twenty thousand dollar minimum all over the world. In learned circle, big, big universities, professors, they are appreciating. We have many congratulations.

Mr. Dixon: And the funds that you derive from the books...

Prabhupāda: Book Trust. That is explained.

Mr. Dixon: ...are used within your congre..., within the people that live in...

Prabhupāda: Yes. I make a Book Trust. That is my will, that from all the collection of the books, fifty percent for reprinting and fifty percent for expanding these temples, these buildings. In this way.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We really don't require very much for our maintenance. As you can see, we live a very simple life.

Prabhupāda: Just like these boys, they are practiced to sit down. We have kept two chairs for the visitors. [laughter] We don't require. We can lie down on the floor. We can use only one or two cloths, that's all, throughout the whole year. We have no demands; only bare necessities. We don't smoke, don't drink. There is no expenditure. Don't go to cinema, don't read newspaper or ordinary magazines---nothing. We have got reading matter. Practically we are noncooperating.

Mr. Dixon: Practically...?

Prabhupāda: Noncooperating.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Noncooperating.

Mr. Dixon: Noncooperating?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Practically.

Mr. Dixon: I don't understand that.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because we are not engaged in so many of the superfluous or unnecessary...

Prabhupāda: Material amenities.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: These things are described in Vedic terms as anartha. They are not very important or very valuable to human advancement. What is really essential is advancement in knowledge.

Mr. Dixon: One of the principles upon which I have lived is a question of involvement with the people around me in trying to do things better than they have been done before.

Prabhupāda: But you must know first of all what is the aim of life and what is better. That we must know. So that is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that we are not interested in God; then whole thing is spoiled. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. We are not interested in God. We want to be happy by adjusting the external energy of God. That is blind leadership. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. This will never be successful, and it is blind leadership because we do not know what is the aim. If you know the aim of life, and if we make program according to that aim, then it will be successful. Blindly everyone is manufacturing his aim, objective---different leaders, different "isms." The Communists, they have got different aims. The capitalists, they have got different aims. The socialists, they have got different aims.

Mr. Dixon: Is it true that there are more young people now in the world that are giving more serious thought to what life is really all about?

Prabhupāda: Yes, they should. Because they are being educated, they are experiencing the faults of their fathers and grandfathers.

Mr. Dixon: And are they able to tell that?

Prabhupāda: So we are telling, "This is the aim. You take." And therefore more response from the younger section. All our devotees, they are just like my grandchildren. Their fathers may be like my children. But they are responsive.

Mr. Dixon: How do you spend a day?

Prabhupāda: Day?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How do we... What do we do during the day? What are our activities?

Prabhupāda: We have got activities day and night, but because the body is there, we have to eat, but we eat Kṛṣṇa prasādam. And naturally we go to sleep, to take some rest. Otherwise, we are always engaged in Kṛṣṇa's business. We have no other business. So I go in the morning for little morning walk because the body, whole day if I sit down, it may be jammed. Therefore, for body's sake, I go for little walking. And then, whole day and night, I am sitting here, either chanting or writing books or talking with you, giving them direction. That's all. We have no other business than Kṛṣṇa's business. That is the peculiarity of this movement. Even if you take it is a religious movement, there is no religious movement in the whole world which has got twenty-four hours' engagement. You'll never find. The Christians go to the church once in a week for one hour, then closed. That is also not very regularly. Even if you take... Our engagement, twenty-four hours.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Every day.

Prabhupāda: Every day. You can see how we are engaged twenty-four hours.

Gurukṛpā: Prabhupāda gets up at one o'clock in the morning.

Prabhupāda: Last night I woke up at half past twelve. [laughter] Yes. So on the whole, utmost I sleep four hours---two hours at night and two hours in daytime.

Mr. Dixon: I must... Your Grace, I'm most grateful to have seen you. I must depart. Thank you very much for having me here.

Prabhupāda: Why, thank you for your coming. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give him prasāda.

Mr. Dixon: Good-bye. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...misleader. But he himself has no character. So here it is open secret, to keep a beautiful girl as secretary, everywhere in Europe and America. So where is purity? Marriage is a taboo, and keep secretary is very good job. And you can get secretary even free of charge. Rather, she will pay. So this is going on. In Vedic civilization marriage is one of the important function of life. As death is important function, birth is important function, similarly, marriage is also important function. Janma-mṛtyu-vivāha. So in this age everywhere, not only.... The marriage is now farce. This is the symptom of Kali-yuga = there will be no more marriage. Svīkāra eva codvāhe [SB 12.2.5]. Even there is marriage, there will be simply an agreement. That is happening, and it was written five thousand years ago. Svīkāra eva. Svīkāra means by agreement, signing agreement. No marriage function. Otherwise, marriage is a...

According to Vedic system, if one has got some money, he will spend the money in three functions. When the child is born, very gorgeously he will spend money, give in charity. Always in the Bhāg... Nanda Mahārāja is giving in charity cows and money, and Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja is giving. Kṛṣṇa, as family man, He was giving in charity. So when the child is born, the horoscope is made, and to make the child happy, blessings of saintly persons, brāhmaṇas, they are given. So ordinary men also sumptuously fed. So bhūribhiḥ.[?] Everyone gives some blessings so that the child is... Then marriage. During marriage time... You have seen Kṛṣṇa's mother's marriage? That was the system. The father gives to his heart content as much as possible to the daughter. The Kṛṣṇa's mother was royal prince, so her father gave so many elephants, so many horses, so many chariots. That was the system. [break] This śrāddha ceremony. That is also, feeding the learned brāhmaṇas, saintly person, poor man, relative. Lavishly they spend money during three occasions = birth, death and marriage. During birth the father spends; the marriage, father spends; and death, the son spends. This is the system.

So social reformation, but there is no idea how the society will be happy. There is no idea. They are trying to remove this intoxication, LSD, but do not see the cause why LSD has come. They do not try to stop that cause. When the cause is effective, then they are disturbed with the effect. This is the defect. Neither they'll take advice. So how they'll be able to... Big, big officer, drawing high salary, that's all. There is no effect. Neither there can be any effect. It is not possible. They do not know. Neither they want it. So we are advocating, "Remove these four sinful activities," so nobody will agree. "Illicit sex is our life, to keep a friend, to keep a secretary." And we are advising, "No illicit sex." Then where is life? That's all.

Devotee (2): They say, "Why should I live if I can't do these things?"

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee (2): One devotee in New Zealand, his father was dying of leukemia. He told his father to stop eating meat and smoking cigarettes and his health would improve. His father said, "If I can't do these things, what is the use of living?"

Prabhupāda: So somebody should... [break] ...committed suicide?

Hari-śauri: Ernest Hemingway. Ernest Hemingway. When he found out..., when the doctor told him he couldn't have sex life anymore, he killed himself.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He was a very big and rich author.

Prabhupāda: This is the, I mean, important men.

Gurukṛpā: That one Marwari, he spent eighteen lakhs of rupees.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Gurukṛpā: Marwari, who spent eighteen lakhs.

Prabhupāda: I do not know eighteen lakhs, but I know that he went to Germany for medical operation and changing the gland with monkey's gland. Yes. He was eighty years old at that time.

Devotee (3): The leaders are so infected. There was an article recently...

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. That is already dictated by Bhāgavata. These leaders, rascals, who are blind, and they are trying to lead other blind men. All of them are falling in the ditch.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the case of Mahārāja Veṇa there was some recourse for the brāhmaṇas. What can we do?

Prabhupāda: Yes, brāhmaṇas were controlling the kṣatriyas. They were obeying the instruction of brāhmaṇas. That is social function. The first-class man will give instruction to the government, and the government will carry the order, "Whether people are actually doing this." Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. And vaiśya will produce food grain and milk sufficiently. And the śūdras, they will help these three higher classes. That's all. This is social system. [break] The brāhmaṇas, they will be always engaged to make plan how people will be successful in the aim of life. And that will be executed through the kṣatriyas. And the vaiśyas will supply foodstuff. Food is also required. And good government is required, and nice direction is required. This is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. And śūdra, they have no brain; they will abide by the orders of these higher sections, that's all. So our movement is creating first-class brāhmaṇas, and the kṣatriyas, if they abide by our instruction---our instruction means Kṛṣṇa's instruction---then everything will be nicely done. Sannyāsīs, they have begun to keep secretaries.

Gurukṛpā: Yogi Bhajan.

Prabhupāda: So many. This tail, dog's tail. Either you become sannyāsī or gṛhastha or anything, the tail is this side. You may grease it as much as possible, but the whole tendency is sex, that's all, in different dresses only. The objective is sex. This is going on. Some of them are openly declaring that "I am for sex," and some of them showbottle. But the objective is sex. This is the whole world. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tucchaṁ kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha [SB 7.9.45]. And these sannyāsīs like Rajneesh, they are advocating, "This is life---sex. By sex indulgence you get salvation." These brahma-kumārīs. Not brahmacārī but brahma-kumārī. Kumārīs are available very easily. And they keep. And the rich men, they are supplied with nice, beautiful kumārīs. They pay money. This is going on. Brahma-kumārī. They enjoy, and they invite the karmīs to enjoy and get money. Kumārī is there; money is there. That's all. Everywhere this is going on.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This just came from Los Angeles along with some other things. They're having an International Yoga and Meditation conference in Chicago in June, and Rāmeśvara was wanting to know if we should send some of our preachers there, to try and have some kind of a booth or take part in it.

Prabhupāda: If it is possible.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is sponsored by the Himalayan International Institute of Yoga Science and Philosophy, Swami Rama from the Himalayas.

Prabhupāda: Bogus. He's a bogus. Then don't take part.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's many... It's costing fifteen dollars for people to get in.

Prabhupāda: So we are not going to give.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Most... I have looked over the people who are speaking. Most of them are from this society.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Most of them are from this society. It seems what they've done, they've taken some of the big bhogīs in America like Satchidananda and others, and they've invited them, to draw bigger crowds. So they're taking this opportunity for money-making. I think we'll probably sell books there, anyway.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I'm sure that our devotees will sell books there.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you can have a book stall.

Gurukṛpā: But outside, though.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Somehow or another.

Gurukṛpā: We used to do outside.

Prabhupāda: There is no use taking part in that meeting. Simply take a book stall = "Bhakti-yoga books." Give a signboard, "Bhakti-yoga books." And give the picture of Dhruva Mahārāja, five-years-old boy, executing bhakti-yoga alone in the forest. We have got meditation. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1]. That is real yoga. And Bhagavad-gītā, yoginām api... These ślokas, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā [Bg. 6.47]. One who's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, he is first-class yogī. Give one picture of the devotees chanting in a very nice place, and give evidence, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā: "This, first-class yogī. Here is first-class yogī." That will be our preaching. Dhruva Mahārāja is practicing yoga. There are many others. So highest perfection is Rādhārāṇī, that simply crying, "Kṛṣṇa has gone to Mathurā, not coming back." That is the..., the whole day and night crying. Who can perform this yoga? So if you, if possible, draw pictures. Satchidananda, he is also a leader? He has?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Gurukṛpā: Yogi Bhajan.

Prabhupāda: Yogi Bhajan also?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Kriyananda Swami, Nada Brahmānanda from Rishikesh, Swami Ajaya, Ph.D., from Madison, Wisconsin. [laughter] It's a small college town in America. Yogi Bhajan. There's many others.

Gurukṛpā: They have these names. These names are not like our names.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A lot of Indian doctors from Canada and India, America.

Hari-śauri: There's one with a Japanese name as well.

Prabhupāda: So you can give yogī import that "Hare Kṛṣṇa is the greatest of all yoga systems."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Topmost yoga.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And quote from Bhagavad-gītā. Show pictures.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You'd like to take your massage now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? [break] [end]