Morning Walk , Bombay , 1976-04-16

Prabhupāda: Prahlāda Mahārāja has criticized mauna-vrata, like that. They have got so...

[break] ...scientists were not perfect in the past, they are not perfect now, and they will continue to remain imperfect. He has written clearly.

Dr. Patel: So this, our science, is a science of māyā. Not the science of spirit. Am I right?

Prabhupāda: No.

Dr. Patel: The science deals with all the earthly things.

Prabhupāda: Even an earthly thing, that does not mean you shall commit mistake. "Two plus two equal to four," that is earthly thing. But if you make "Two plus two equal to five..."

Dr. Patel: One.

Prabhupāda: That is not...

Dr. Patel: If you make "Two plus two is equal to one," then that is spiritual. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: No, no. Apart from spiritual, they are talking and again changing. Sometimes they say "Two plus two equal to four," sometimes they say "Two plus two equal to five," and then next they say "Two plus two equal to three." This is going on. So where is your truth? [break] ...the mūḍhas.

Dr. Patel: No, no, no, you are not.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Don't say that. We are mūḍha.

Prabhupāda: No, but because we simply talk of Kṛṣṇa, therefore, although mūḍha, we are not mūḍha. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. That's all.

Dr. Patel: That's right. I am talking to my scientist friends, sir. That is which medium they move.

Prabhupāda: The protons, electrons, and they have not come to any conclusion. They are still dividing. NDA? They have found some NDA?

Dr. Patel: Elementary particles.

Prabhupāda: No, NDA?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: DNA.

Dr. Patel: DNA, that is biochemistry. DNA. [laughs] The double nucleic acid. This DNA and RNA, these are the special acid, nucleic acids. They actually have the power to procreate new cells. These are our Indian..., that, those scientists have... [laughter] Those scientists. Because I am infected company. I got that bad company just now, this. So I say "Indian." The scientists, I say. Very good joke. RNA and DNA are nothing, but we don't know how they work even now. There is a lot of research is going on.

Prabhupāda: Our study should be that these things we cannot explain, but these things are there, so there is a great scientist. That's it. That much understanding is good. You go on analyzing one after another, so you do not come to the final conclusion. But you see actually it is existing, so it has been done by a great scientist. That is wanted.

Dr. Patel: [Hindi]

Gurudāsa: Kṛṣṇa-tattva.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...otherwise how things have been arranged like that?

Dr. Patel: I said Āryans, not Indians.

Prabhupāda: Anyone. We don't say Āryan or Indian, but there is a great scientist who has arranged like that.

Dr. Patel: The greatest scientist is Kṛṣṇa, God. You call Him by any other name, but He is personally present, as He says.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even the modern scientists do not learn everything by laboratory. They take knowledge from their predecessor.

Dr. Patel: But intuition does come. The topmost scientists... They intuit it, then they work on that way.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't become ignorant by themselves. They have lots of help.

Dr. Patel: What is ignorance and what is knowledge is very difficult to say. It is a relative terminology.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jñānaṁ jñeyaṁ jñāna-gamyam [Bg. 13.18].

Dr. Patel: That's right so far as the spiritual knowledge is concerned, but in the relative knowledge, after all...

Prabhupāda: Relative knowledge is also...

Dr. Patel: Aparā-vidyā, what is real knowledge, we don't know.

Prabhupāda: No? Why not?

Dr. Patel: Because every time we change our opinion...

Prabhupāda: We know from Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: Now, sir, that is what I said. But now you are always talking about parā-vidyā.

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Dr. Patel: We are scientist of aparā-vidyā.

Prabhupāda: Even aparā-vidyā. Even aparā-vidyā.

bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ
khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca
bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā

Kṛṣṇa says, so you have to know it like that. That is Kṛṣṇa's energy...

Dr. Patel: And how it is that prakṛti is, I mean, interaction, interaction of...

Prabhupāda: He says, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. That is stated, and also said, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. So therefore that is final.

Dr. Patel: That is why I say, sir, that Albert Einstein used to see mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram. He used to see mayādhyakṣeṇa, God everywhere. In every atom he used to see God.

Prabhupāda: That is right conclusion.

Dr. Patel: That is Albert Einstein, and that was the grandfather of the modern scientists. So I say the scientists are not as atheist as people think.

Abhirāma: When Albert Einstein suggested that there must be a supreme universe, then the other scientists began to say that he was crazy. They said, "He has become too old."

Dr. Patel: Yes, yes, yes.

Abhirāma: Actually they did not believe his theory.

Dr. Patel: You are right. All the crazy men... I mean, all intelligent men in past used to say mad...

Prabhupāda: [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] ...scientist. Tad viddhi praṇipātena [Bg. 4.34].

Dr. Patel: But he did not the paripraśnena sevayā. I do it.

Prabhupāda: No, he thinks not yet fit to make paripraśna.

Dr. Patel: I do it on India.

Prabhupāda: That is. That is scientist. He thinks himself not fit to make any question. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena [Bg. 4.34]. When the praṇipāta is sufficiently mature, then he can make paripraśna---accompanied by sevā. Otherwise paripraśna is a waste of time. According to our Vedic system, we should not make any question to any person whose answer I cannot accept toto. Then I shall. Otherwise no use of wasting time. Praṇipāta means that you are accepting that "Here I have come. His answer will be complete." No further question. But if there is little doubt, he can submissively make question. Just like Arjuna made question to Kṛṣṇa that "You say millions of years ago You spoke this science to..."

Dr. Patel: Vivasvān.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "But You are of my age. How I can accept this?" And immediately answer was that "Both of us were present. You have forgotten; I have not forgotten." Bās. Accept it. He did not challenge, "How is that? I have forgotten? You did not forget?" And that is nonsense. That is nonsense.

Dr. Patel: Śādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam [Bg. 2.7].

Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as he questions like that, "How is that You have not forgotten? I have forgotten?" it is not good. Then he is not fit for making question. He should not have made question. [break] ...saw the gosvāmī?

Dr. Patel: Have you got them here?

Prabhupāda: I think we have got, eh?

Dr. Patel: The six Gosvāmīs. [laughs] I just look at him. American scientists don't come to my rescue. [break] [laughs] [Hindi] Our ātmā.... [Hindi] Kuṇape tri-dhātuke. We are not God conscious, any one of us. Practically hardly for us; small way, perhaps. So we are go-khara, then, in right sense.

Prabhupāda: When he admits that he's a go-khara, he's not go-khara.

Dr. Patel: He's not go-khara.

Prabhupāda: He's no more go-khara.

Dr. Patel: Really? [laughter]

Prabhupāda: Because go-kharas, they cannot understand their mistake. And as soon as one admits that he's mistaken, then he's human being.

Dr. Patel: But this ātma-dhī in this kuṇape tri-dhātuke is very difficult to knock off and establish it in...

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Dr. Patel: This ātma-dhī in kuṇape tri-dhātuke is very difficult to take out, extremely difficult.

Prabhupāda: No, if you analyze, you can take it.

Dr. Patel: That is done by Sāṅkhya philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: You have to analyze, sir, with Sāṅkhya philosophy, by jñāna-mārga, that you are not this body.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, you analyze. Just like you take breathing. Breathing is taken as the life, breathing. When the breathing is stopped, then there is no life. So analyze this breathing. What is this breathing? It is air. So when breathing is stopped, then you can take air. There are so many persons here, and by some machine you can put within the heart or somewhere. Let the air go on passing. But that is not possible. Therefore immediately the air is rejected. Then take the bone, little muscle. Everything will be rejected. There is no life. So this is analytical study. And then what remains? That soul. Very common thing.

Dr. Patel: Kiṁ pariśiṣyate... [Sanskrit]

Prabhupāda: Neti neti. "This not soul, this is not soul, this is not soul." Then still, there is the living force. Avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam [Bg. 2.17]. Immediately come to the conclusion. But they have analytical laboratory, but they have no brain how to analyze. They are thinking that because the blood has become white, therefore life has been lost. So is it very difficult to make the secretion within the body red?

Dr. Patel: No.

Prabhupāda: You can make it red.

Dr. Patel: Now, sir, they think the body does not extinct with the stoppage of the heart, but it gets extinct after complete disorganization of the brain, or what we call...

Prabhupāda: That means mūḍha. You are mūḍha, again mūḍha. Double mūḍha. [laughter]

Dr. Patel: Both, they come to mūḍha. Now rascal become...

Prabhupāda: Means when he becomes double mūḍha he becomes rascal. [laughter] Single mūḍha is tolerable, and double mūḍha means mūḍha. Double M.A. Double M.A. means double rascal.

Dr. Patel: Up to this, sir, heart transplant, I mean, surgery...

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] All mūḍhas. [Hindi] Apareyam. Immediately Kṛṣṇa says, but this rascal will not accept. He immediately says, "This you are analyzing, but these things, these material things---apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā [Bg. 7.5]. There is another thing." But that they will not accept. Therefore mūḍha. Kṛṣṇa says very clearly, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā. What is that? Jīva-bhūta. That living entity. So clearly said, but they are so mūḍha, they will not accept.

Dr. Patel: [Hindi] Now it is all right? All right. [break]

Prabhupāda: And Kṛṣṇa is saying, and they still will not believe. Therefore rascal. It is clearly said. After analyzing all this material of the kuṇape tri-dhātuke... This is... This body is a bag of this transformation of kapha pitta vāyu, tri-dhātuke. So this is not life. That is different. Kṛṣṇa says, apareyam itas tu viddhi me. But these rascals will not believe it. Therefore rascals. Very minutely analyze with this material in the body. What is there? The air is there, the blood is there, the muscle is there, the veins are there, the bone is there, the stool is there, the urine is there---a combination of all these, is that life?

Dr. Patel: No, it is kuṇape tri-dhātuke, kuṇape.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And Kṛṣṇa says, dehino 'smin. In this hodgepodge combination of matter there is the soul. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ... [Bg. 2.13]. On account of this, this body is changing. Kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara prāptiḥ. Very simple thing, but they're so rascal, they will not understand. The whole world is like that. [break] He is speaking Himself. Let us accept it. Every knowledge is there. I am not scientist, but all the scientists come. Our Svarūpa Dāmodara, Doctor, Ph.D., he was defeated three times, four times daily, and then he is now writing book, Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. You see? And I was not a scientist. He was Ph.D., but I talked on the basis of Kṛṣṇa's assets. That's all. That is my knowledge. [break] ...this knowledge, very practical knowledge, and if we don't accept it, then what it is? It is simply rascaldom. Yes.

Dr. Patel: [laughs] No, but you see, they...

Prabhupāda: It is not for you. Kṛṣṇa says that "This is material; this is spiritual. This is superior; this is inferior." He is analyzing. There is no question of... We have forgotten; therefore He is reminding. But still, we'll not take. That is rascaldom.

Dr. Patel: No, but still, we know that... I mean, we know that this body is not we. We are jīvas. Still, every moment we know; still, we forget to act accordingly. That is what I mean to say, sir. We don't act accordingly.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That means the knowledge is not perfect. Yes.

Dr. Patel: Sthita prajñā.

Prabhupāda: Everything is explained so nicely in the Bhagavad-gītā. If you take simply, then you become man of knowledge.

Dr. Patel: Nijam ātmānaṁ brāhmaṇa-rūpam[?] But still, even at that time also, we think of body. That is a misfortune.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Dr. Patel: People. I also.

Prabhupāda: No, no. A devotee never thinks "I am body." "The body is mine, or body is given to me. So this body is given by Kṛṣṇa. Let this body be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service." Then it is all right. Both the prakṛtis, parā-prakṛti and aparā, is Kṛṣṇa's. So even if you say that spiritually you can serve, but this is also Kṛṣṇa's prakṛti. You cannot reject the body and simply take the soul. That is not possible. It is now combination. So the body, karmaṇā manasā vācā. So we are not rejecting this body. Why? This is also Kṛṣṇa's. How can I reject it? Kṛṣṇa's things must be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. This is real philosophy. You cannot say, "This is not Kṛṣṇa's." What is not Kṛṣṇa's? Everything is Kṛṣṇa's.

Indian: These Māyāvādīs reject this, that the body is not...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ, mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgo [Brs. 1.2.256]. The Māyāvādī says the whole material world is false. We do not say that.

Indian (2): We say both are right, parā and aparā, both together.

Prabhupāda: We do not say. We say this material world also the energy of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca, bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā [Bg. 7.4]. He claims, "It is Mine," so how you can reject it? We cannot say anything Kṛṣṇa's is false. There is some purpose. I give this example, this finger = here is sensation, and here is no sensation. But both of them belongs to my body. Matter means where there is no Kṛṣṇa sensation. That is matter. And as soon as there is Kṛṣṇa sensation, it is spirit. Our Gosvāmīs' formula is that. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. Everything has got relation with Kṛṣṇa. So... Eh?

Dr. Patel: That is the highest, I mean, fulfillment of prema-bhakti.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi..., mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgo. Mumukṣubhiḥ, this mokṣa-vāñchā, they said, "It is false." So mumukṣu..., parityāgo phalgu vairāgyaṁ kathyate. It is not real vairāgya. He does not know what is vairāgya.

Indian man: [Hindi]

Dr. Patel: Vaiṣṇavas... Veda gives to take care all your mind, senses and body, from that...

Prabhupāda: Everything Kṛṣṇa's. That...

Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa's. That is right.

Prabhupāda: Mānasa deha geha yo kichu mora, arpiluṅ tuwā pade. All as soon as it is surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, it is all spiritual.

Mahāṁśa: Sanātana Gosvāmī, at first he wanted to commit suicide. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "This body is not yours."

Prabhupāda: Yes. "How you can make suicide? You have already dedicated your body to Me. You have no right." This was the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... You cannot neglect it. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's version. When one comes to this understanding, that "Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa, everything has emanated from Kṛṣṇa," ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8], "and everything can be used for Kṛṣṇa," then real understanding---sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma [Chāndogya Upaniṣad 3.14.1]. That is wanted. [break] ...1:15. Fifteen minutes late.

Dr. Patel: Brāhma-muhūrta... [Hindi] I take my bath at three o'clock, so it is all right for me. I'm never falling in all these ways. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...give you this foolishness that in other countries they have taken to industry and they are also fully engaged in agriculture. Here the men are taken from the village for industrial work, and the agricultural work suffers.

Dr. Patel: Not so in industry. People are idle. It is just like a man having one son, another man having six sons. If the man with six sons works very hard, he is more, I mean, rich than that fellow. But those six boys don't work? Then he goes to hell.

Prabhupāda: No, he works. He sees that "In the village I shall get one rupee per day, and if I go to the town I shall get twenty rupees."

Dr. Patel: Not that, sir. Even that, there is no jobs.

Prabhupāda: But he thinks there is job. He leaves.

Dr. Patel: Yes, they come here in search of job.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They suffer. They live in the huts and very nasty place, still expecting.

Dr. Patel: But the highly advanced countries like the States, the United States, the agricultural... I mean, this industry is completely contracted. A percentage the population is getting less and less in agriculture than before. Now hardly ten percent, people are in the United States.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa advises...

Dr. Patel: Yes, because agriculture, however...

Prabhupāda: Annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14].

Dr. Patel: Even though they have got a lot of machinery and all these things, but still, everything's all... As, for example, chemical industry. Forty-paisa worth for ten rupees.

Devotees: Jaya! [end]