Morning Walk , Māyāpur , 1976-03-21

Prabhupāda: ...met recently our Lalita Prasad? You did not?

Bhavānanda: Who is that?

Prabhupāda: Lalita, Lalita. Lalita Thakur or...

Bhavānanda: Lalita.

Pañcadravida: Lalita Prasad?

Prabhupāda: Huh, huh.

Bhavānanda: In Birnagara, no. Jayapatākā has been there, but I haven't been there in years. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...moon is hot, they say, because the shade of the earth is obstructing.

Pañcadravida: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Is it not?

Devotees: Yes.

Trivikrama: They say that the sun is hitting like that.

Prabhupāda: Eh? The sun is there, and the earth is there. How it becomes...?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The earth is bet... The earth is between the sun and the moon. Therefore there's some...

Prabhupāda: That's all right, in between.

Haṁsadūta: No, no. They say that the sun's rays are striking it, only half. The other half is in shadow.

Prabhupāda: What is that shadow?

Devotee (1): Night. Like nighttime on the earth.

Haṁsadūta: Shadow. Like a ball. If I have a ball and shine a light on it, then...

Prabhupāda: No. No, no. Shadow.

Haṁsadūta: ...this side will be in shadow.

Prabhupāda: Shadow... "Shadow" means earthly shadow? No.

Haṁsadūta: No, no, no. Its own shadow. If this is a ball, and the light is coming from here, see, this portion will be in darkness or shadow, and the other portion will reflect light.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's not the modern theory.

Devotees: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: Is that all right? Explanation?

Devotee (1): Sounds all right.

Haṁsadūta: That's what they say.

Prabhupāda: "They say." What you say?

Haṁsadūta: We don't know anything. After meeting you, we wonder if we know anything, because we thought the moon was going around the earth.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What shadow is that? The moon casts its own shadow.

Haṁsadūta: That's what they say.

Prabhupāda: They, their explanation is...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Half the moon is in darkness.

Trivikrama: Yeah, the back side.

Prabhupāda: The back side.

Trivikrama: The back side of the moon. That's what we're seeing now. The sun's here, hitting...

Prabhupāda: I can understand now. That means moon..., moon is... A portion is bright.

Devotees: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Half of it is always bright.

Devotee: Yes. The part that's facing the sun.

Pṛthu-putra: But this is less than half.

Prabhupāda: And when they go to the moon planet, they go to the dark side. Is it not?

Haṁsadūta: No.

Pañcadravida: No, they say they go to the light side, too.

Haṁsadūta: No, they say the dark side is so cold that no one can... Because there's no sunlight, it is so cold.

Prabhupāda: That means they have no experience of all the sides of the moon.

Haṁsadūta: No, they don't. They only have one side, experiencing.

Prabhupāda: So, so what is the cause of the brightness?

Pañcadravida: The sun.

Prabhupāda: They have brought some dust, but this is not bright.

Trivikrama: They say it's reflected light.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. What is the material that makes it so bright so that whole universe is illuminated?

Haṁsadūta: There's no comment on that point.

Pṛthu-putra: They don't know that.

Prabhupāda: They have brought some dust, but that is not bright. They have said... The other scientists, they said, "This kind of dust can be available here." Just see. Now, how it is bright?

Pañcadravida: Well, they say that from space the earth would be bright also, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: The nonsense may say anything. But our common sense, that if the..., there is some ingredient in this moon which makes it bright, so they have brought the dust, but other scientists say that this dust can be available here.

Pañcadravida: So it may be cheating.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Pañcadravida: Actually, they have not proved anything.

Prabhupāda: That is my contention.

Trivikrama: They say the moon is bright, just like if a cloud is in the sky, it appears very white and bright because the sun is hitting it. But the same cloud, if you bring it into the room, it's just mist.

Prabhupāda: But cloud is not always existing. But this brightness is always existing. Cloud is sometimes appearing, sometimes disappearing. The moon brightness is regular. How you can compare with cloud? When you compare, there must be consistency. Analogy. Analogy means similar position. Otherwise, analogy has no meaning.

Haṁsadūta: Here's Jayapatākā.

Prabhupāda: Ah! [break] Our Lalita Cācā wants to do? You met him recently?

Jayapatākā: Oh. So his point is...

Prabhupāda: Does he want to do something or simply speculate?

Jayapatākā: He says that he wants to do something, and so does some of his people.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayapatākā: But he has a committee. He has a Society. One Mr. Bhattacarya, who is a lawyer, and this Sat-cit-andana, who is a clerk.

Prabhupāda: But that's all right. What they want to do?

Jayapatākā: But they never... We never spoke to those people.

Prabhupāda: I have told him that "Whatever you want to give us, give us. If you cannot give us, give us in lease. You will remain your proprietor, but give us in lease, and we develop it." But he has never replied that. What does he want to do?

Jayapatākā: Before he finalized once, he said he wanted to speak to you once more. But never was the thing actually discussed in detail with Your Divine Grace.

Prabhupāda: It was discussed. And he agreed, "Yes." But his man has different idea. So if you think that he's serious, we can go today sometime. How long it takes by car?

Jayapatākā: It takes about an hour.

Prabhupāda: Hour.

Jayapatākā: But actually it's on the route to Calcutta.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So we can... But that will be very hastily. That... The road is all right?

Jayapatākā: That... The road to his place is all right. There's a shortcut from Krishnanagar; if that's taken, then for a while, one kilometer, there's kacā road. After that, there's very..., there's clear road with no traffic. Otherwise, if we... We normally take that in the vans and in the jeep. We save about half an hour. But that way you have to go through one mile of kacā road. Otherwise, if you go by all pakkā road, then it's a good road. Just takes a...

Prabhupāda: No, we shall go...

Jayapatākā: ...little longer.

Prabhupāda: It doesn't matter. We shall go by the pakkā. Kacā road may damage the car.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is that today or tomorrow, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No. On the way to Calcutta, talking will not be very serious because we'll be busy to go fast.

Jayapatākā: We'd be in a hurry.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes. Yes. [break] So what is the use of such men? Why he's keeping these men? They cannot do anything. He gets some pension. Who spends that money? But they are not doing anything. So what is the meaning of this count?

Jayapatākā: He admits that many times he has told some of them to leave their family life and take up some preaching, but they don't do it.

Prabhupāda: How they'll do it? They do not know how to preach, neither they are trained up. That means it is his disqualification. He could not train them how to preach. Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was training Haridāsa Ṭhākura, Nityānanda, "Go there. Preach there. Do that." My Guru Mahārāja was doing that. But he has no power. He cannot do it. He simply talks that he is a very confidential devotee. That's all. He cannot preach. Otherwise, Prabhupāda developed this Māyāpur, and he could not do anything. That means he has no power.

Jayapatākā: He should have developed that place.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He simply talks of big, big words. In the beginning, Prabhupāda had no committee, nothing of the sort. That he'll not admit, that he has no power to do so. He simply thinks that he's very confidential son of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. That's his... [break] ...bābājī you have seen? His chief disciple? He lives in Calcutta.

Jayapatākā: Yeah, he's not actually a bābājī; he's gṛhastha.

Prabhupāda: Oh, but he lives like a bābājī dress.

Jayapatākā: I don't know anyone lives by bābājī... He wears dhotī.

Prabhupāda: What is his name?

Jayapatākā: Sat-cit-ananda.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, Sat-cit-ananda. So he... I have seen several times. He's like bābājī, but what he is?

Jayapatākā: He's a clerk.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayapatākā: He's a clerk.

Prabhupāda: Clerk. [laughs] And he's the chief man.

Jayapatākā: He's a secretary. They have lawyer also, but he is the treasurer or something. I've only met with Sat-cit-ananda. [break] He does some preaching. He goes to Bangladesh and does kīrtana on village to village sometimes. [break] ...if they give us the place on lease.

Prabhupāda: What is the use of talking?

Jayapatākā: What is the use of talking with Lalita Prasad?

Prabhupāda: Eh? No. That was the... Last talk was like that. I wanted that "You have to consider that whatever portion you can spare, give us on lease. We develop." That's all. Ninety-nine-years' lease.

Jayapatākā: I don't think he clearly understood. [break] Hmm?

Pañcadravida: In what way would we develop it?

Prabhupāda: Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's birthplace? Make some nice building with some devotees, one to take care. That's all. Means making interested the local inhabitants.

Pañcadravida: Start programs.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes. They should come and hear. The preachers, wanted.

Jayapatākā: They showed me that one plot of five bīghās that... They were considering giving this to us if we would develop one guesthouse and one institute.

Prabhupāda: No, they cannot make any condition. Whatever we shall like we shall do. There is no condition. If they give us on lease, they are concerned with the rent, that's all. Yes.

Jayapatākā: But they were willing to give outright.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayapatākā: They were going to give outright one piece of land. They just requested that... Their idea was that they hoped there would be a..., some place for studying Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's books, one type of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura institute or library where people could..., all of his books would be collected, and his works.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is a good idea. That we can do.

Jayapatākā: And some place for staying at also.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Five bīghās. That we can do. If they agree, then let them give us. We shall do.

Jayapatākā: Lalita Prasad Thakur was saying that... He was feeling that one more interview with you was necessary. However, I'm reluctant to say to go today because I haven't seen him for a month or two, and I don't want a two-three hour trip to just go, maybe nothing may come of it. That's why I'm thinking on the way to Calcutta there would be more..., wouldn't be much expenditure of time, I mean, as far as traveling goes. And let's say, if something comes of it, then it's all right. If something doesn't come, it's not such a great loss.

Prabhupāda: All right, we can do that. Then we shall go by the nice...

Jayapatākā: Oh, yes. The nice. There's only one little bridge. Other than that, everything is all right.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayapatākā: There's one bridge like we went over yesterday. That's a little... Otherwise, everywhere...

Prabhupāda: No, no, bridge, it is in good condition or not? Sometimes it is... Last time we went, that injured... It made some damage.

Jayapatākā: On what?

Prabhupāda: The car was damaged.

Jayapatākā: Oh, it won't damage the car.

Prabhupāda: Oh. That is our concern. If the car is damaged, that is not good.

Jayapatākā: The last journey there was some damage on the car?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No damage on our car.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Last time when I went.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Last time, when Prabhupāda went.

Jayapatākā: Oh, no, since then they've improved the road. Oh, that road has been paved now. Pakkā road.

Prabhupāda: Oh. [break]

Jayapatākā: ...there, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They've got a mango orchard also. What time will you be leaving here tomorrow?

Prabhupāda: Early in the morning.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Five.

Prabhupāda: Or when...? As you like. I have no... [break] They... How we see the sun is fixed up? The sun is moving, we see, so quickly. And the moon is moving, but it does not move. It is fixed up. Mean regarding the time, you can see practically, the sun is moving. And they say it is fixed up. The fixed-up article is moving quickly, and the moving article is fixed up. Why?

Pañcadravida: When a train is in the station, when the train pulls out of the station, when you're in the train, it looks like that the station is moving and you're standing still.

Prabhupāda: Train has got different movement. But that means it has got different movement? Your analogy is imperfect.

Pañcadravida: No, but if we...

Prabhupāda: You cannot compare with train because train has got different movement. But they haven't got different movement.

Pañcadravida: But if this was moving at the same speed as the earth, it would appear to be fixed up. If the moon and the earth were both moving at the same speed, it would appear to be fixed up.

Prabhupāda: No. We see practically. Now we are standing. We see the sun is moving. It comes. And the moon is moving, but it is fixed up. Why it is? The moving matter is stand still, and the fixed-up matter is moving.

Pañcadravida: Actually, it's we who are moving. The sun is...

Prabhupāda: But my speed is the same.

Pañcadravida: Pardon me?

Prabhupāda: My, this earthly moving, that speed is the same. Why you find different position? Just consider with brain.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If the moon is closer than the sun, according to the scientists' philosophy...

Prabhupāda: Philosophy... But we see, I mean, a distant matter is moving. We can see. And nearer, we cannot see. It is fixed up. What is this?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If you take a bicycle wheel, a spoke...

Prabhupāda: A bicycle you cannot concern. Bicycle or train, they have got different speed. You cannot compare. That analogy will not stand.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Say you take one spoke, one...

Prabhupāda: No, no, we, cannot... You cannot bring bicycles in discussion first of all. You can talk all this to the fools. Analogy cannot be accepted unless they are similar.

Pañcadravida: The moon is locked up. The moon is in the same...

Prabhupāda: That means you are suggesting simply. You have no clear idea. Actually the sun is moving. That is my point. Such a huge, gigantic matter, and we see, so quickly... From the sunrise, now, it is not even fifteen minutes. Just imagine how big speed is there is.

Jayapatākā: But it is not so fast at midday.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayapatākā: It is not so fast at midday.

Prabhupāda: No. Eh? No...

Jayapatākā: At midday, it is not so...

Prabhupāda: Faster, fast..., it is fast also. But because on the head. The speed is the same. You cannot say...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One point is there, though, Śrīla Prabhupāda. If the moon is illuminating---it gives off its own light---then why can we only see half of the moon now?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If the moon is illuminating, why can we only see half of the moon?

Prabhupāda: They say there is half of the illuminating.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, because it's reflected from the sun.

Prabhupāda: The shadow. Then there is shadow. It is being shadowed.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If it's reflection.

Prabhupāda: No, reflection we do not accept.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's illuminating.

Prabhupāda: It is illuminating.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Giving off light.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then why is it that we can only see half of the moon, then?

Pañcadravida: Half moon.

Prabhupāda: About these movements, my position is different. My position is... There is two movements, a sun movement and the whole planetary system movement. So according to the movement... That is explained in the Bhāgavatam.

Pañcadravida: Why is it sometimes there's only quarter moon, no moon, half moon, full moon?

Prabhupāda: The same explanation. On the whole, we have to accept that something wonderful is going on. And that is Kṛṣṇa's arrangement.

Trivikrama: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: You cannot explain. You, you rascal scientists, from so much distant you have calculated, "This is thi..." This is all wrong. Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ [Bs. 5.52]. They are carrying order of Kṛṣṇa, not your order. Yasyājñayā. "By the order of Govinda," not your order. Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ. [break]

Pañcadravida: "There may be a God, but all these stories..."

Prabhupāda: "There may be." That is rascaldom.

Pañcadravida: All these stories about Him...

Prabhupāda: Anyone who says "maybe," he's not scientist; he's a rascal. Then why shall I hear him, rascal? Why shall I waste my time? I am not going to waste my time to hear a rascal. How can I? I have got value of my time. As soon as he says, "Maybe there is God," he's a rascal.

Pañcadravida: Then, if he says...

Prabhupāda: Now, just like if somebody says, "Maybe there is a president," he's a rascal. He does not know what is the history, what is the constitution. He does not know. So why a gentleman should waste a time with such a rascal who says, "There may be a president"? Immediately he becomes a rascal.

Pañcadravida: Then he says, "There is a God, but all these stories about Him and His activities, they are just imaginations."

Prabhupāda: That's right. You do not know what is God, after all. "There may be." Then who is going to hear you? You do not know. Your statement is also another story.

Pañcadravida: I am not a scientist.

Prabhupāda: No, no. The scientists, if they say "There may be God," that means he's a rascal. Scientist means whatever he will say, that is accurate. That is scientist. What is the difference between a layman and scientist? That is the difference. The scientist will say what is actual fact. That is scientist.

Pañcadravida: They only accept...

Prabhupāda: That is not scientist, that he..., "maybe," "perhaps." That is not scientist.

Pañcadravida: Well, they only accept what they can confirm by experimentation.

Prabhupāda: That means their experiment is not perfect. Their observation is not perfect---vague idea. So how he can become a scientist? That is no scientist.

Pañcadravida: What is the position of one who accepts God, that there is God... [break]

Prabhupāda: Take Kṛṣṇa do not manufacture Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa, thank you very much... Yei bhaje sei boro. Here is woman [indistinct] engaged in worshiping [indistinct], she is great. Yei bhaje sei boro. So why should we hurt woman? Anyone who is engaged in service, he is big. The dress is not important; the advancement of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is important. We have to see from that formula. Just like we sometimes have to dress like ordinary gentleman and sell books. Does it mean he is deviating? No. He's serving Kṛṣṇa, dress or no dress. It doesn't matter. If you stick to the dress, "Oh, I have taken sannyāsī, I cannot..." He cannot sell the books. Where is your service influence? You must give service first. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Is that Līlāvatī? No. It is Līlāvatī? No. I was thinking that she is Līlāvatī dressed like a widow, because she never likes to be widow. [laughter]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's Hṛdayānanda's old wife.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's Hṛdayānanda's old wife.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Dayānanda's?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hṛdayānanda Swami.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Pañcadraviḍa: She is widow.

Prabhupāda: Nobody is widow, because Kṛṣṇa is ultimate husband. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee: Jaya Prabhupāda!

Prabhupāda: Jaya!

Children: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! Jaya Prabhupāda! Jaya Prabhupāda!

Prabhupāda: Jaya!

Children: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! Haribol!

Prabhupāda: Haribol! So where is the artist for painting?

Devotee: [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: Photograph?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Make the bullock cart an international. They'll be surprised. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya [Cc. Madhya 22.62]. We must be always convinced that if we simply take up the knowledge given by Kṛṣṇa, then you are perfect. That's all. If little success is there for me than other svāmīs and yogīs, it is due to my conviction on this point. I never compromised with anything which is not spoken by Kṛṣṇa. Did you mark it or not?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Devotee: One time you told us, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to meet every man at his door and ask him to give up everything he knows and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is simple. "You rascal, you give up whatever you have learned, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Don't say "rascal," but indirectly [laughter], that "Whatever you have learned, it is all nonsense." Sakalam eva vihāya dūrāt [Caitanya-candrāmṛta], "You give up everything, kicked out, and simply become adherent to Caitanya." This is our preaching. And what Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128], that's all. Because ultimately He is Kṛṣṇa.

Pañcadraviḍa: Can you repeat why you said you have been successful where others have not?

Prabhupāda: Because I stick to Kṛṣṇa's word. I, therefore, present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. We do not make any amendment nor accept any amendment. And, therefore, we decry everything---Gandhi, Dr. Radhakrishnan, Aurobindo, this, that---all rascals, because they tried to amend it. That is admitted by the science professor. They have all tried to make it modernized, but I have not done. Here is the spiritual master in the disciplic succession, so we remain indebted to him to understand the original traditional knowledge.

Devotee: Also that professor from Mexico City, he appreciated.

Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone who is after truth will accept. If he's a bogus, if you want to be cheated and cheat others, that will not. Ninety-nine percent, they are cheaters and cheated. This is the position. All these cheaters, they are cheating, and they accept to be cheated. If I am very clever that I don't want to be cheated, then nobody can cheat me. But these rascals, they want to be cheated. If you say, "No, no, what is the wrong in illicit sex?" That means you want to be cheated. And if you say, "[indistinct] this svāmī is very conservative." This is the position. We want cheap things because we want to be cheated. And there are so many cheaters, they will take advantage and cheat you. This is going on.

Pañcadraviḍa: Allen Ginsberg, he said that, that you were very conservative.

Prabhupāda: Yes, because he wants to be cheated. And he cheats others. Some followers, he is cheating.

Pañcadraviḍa: Yato mat tato pat.

Prabhupāda: Yato mat tato pat. Yes, this is going on. This business, cheaters and cheated. We preach to one, the innocent persons who are being cheated, and we don't want to cheat anybody, but what Kṛṣṇa says. Our business is very simple.

Devotee: So we should expose these bogus...

Prabhupāda: Yes, we are exposing, that is our business.

Devotee: Actually, by making such wonders they are exposing themselves.

Prabhupāda: That is fact.

Devotee: Just like Guru Maharaj-ji.

Prabhupāda: Anyone. Why Guru Maharaj-ji? Any Mahārāja. Any man who will speak something which is not in the instruction of Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Kṛṣṇa, he is cheating. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But if we take that we are the only way, then people call us fanatics.

Prabhupāda: They may say. They are themselves fanatics. Who cares for them? If a madman says you are madman, I have to accept? No. He must be a sane man. Then there is some meaning. He is calling me madman, but he is a... If I am blind and if another man, he is blind, he says you are blind, so what is the use?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So is the principle to first prove that they are insane and then afterwards that we're sane, or first to prove that we're sane and then...

Prabhupāda: Our proof is that we are following the sane man's instruction, or sane being, the Supreme Being. There cannot be any mistake. Therefore, we are sane.

Devotee: They say they are also following.

Prabhupāda: No. Therefore, why they are changing? We don't change, millions of years. What Kṛṣṇa said, we are following the same. But they change every year.

Pañcadraviḍa: That Vairagi Baba[?], he showed up in Hong Kong, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Pañcadraviḍa: You know that person who gives us the mandir in Vrndavana and... What's his name? We stay at that Fogla Ashram every year? Vairagi Baba?

Prabhupāda: Vairagi Baba.

Pañcadraviḍa: He showed up in Hong Kong. He said that "There are two great influences in my life = one Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who taught me service..., who taught me devotion," and he said, "Ramakrishna, who taught us service to man." He also showed up with one woman sannyāsīni or something.

Devotee: Service to man. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: Especially woman. [laughter]

Pañcadraviḍa: And wearing saffron too. You gave him an offer he could travel and become..., and take part in our movement if he was willing to preach Bhagavad-gītā as it is.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pañcadraviḍa: He did not accept.

Prabhupāda: That means he wants to cheat. [loud kīrtana] [end]