Morning Walk , Māyāpur , 1976-03-10

Prabhupāda: ...telling that too much stricture on the gṛhasthas may cause some disturbance. Eh?

Madhudviṣa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So I think the gṛhastha themselves should form a small committee and define what they will do, instead of forcing something, because in this age, nobody can follow strictly all the stricture in the śāstras.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think that we formulated anything for them to do.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Any of our resolutions, it doesn't say anything about what they should do. It simply says what should..., how our Society should be run, our temples. It doesn't state anything about how the gṛhasthas should live.

Prabhupāda: No... What? What was your point...?

Madhudviṣa: Well, last evening we were saying that sex life according to the regulative principles means sex life only when the guru tells the gṛhastha to have sex life. And what I said last night is that if that is the case, then there would be no more gṛhasthas in the Society. They will not... [laughs] They will not become gṛhasthas.

Prabhupāda: Be practical.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So that point they can discuss amongst themselves, but that doesn't have anything to do with our resolutions. Right?

Devotee: Yeah. This is the idea.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In other words, our resolutions are on another point, that as far as when they..., when they have sex life and when they don't, they should have a committee and they can decide that. But... Resolutions we passed had nothing to do with that. Our resolutions had to do with if someone is not to be supported by the movement, things like this. Those things are a different matter. The actual way the gṛhasthas should live, that is their... They should decide that by committee.

Yaṣodānandana: There now should be a proposition that before they enter the gṛhastha āśrama, they should have a means of supporting themselves besides the living off the Society.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That was said...

Yaṣodānandana: They would be serious before...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Those things, the GBC made a resolution.

Madhudviṣa: The resolutions that we made were wrong in that regard.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh?

Madhudviṣa: The resolutions that we made were wrong. Prabhupāda rectified us.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In what regard?

Madhudviṣa: We made a resolution that if a householder gets married, then he has to take care of his wife for the rest of his life till he takes sannyāsa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, Prabhupāda corrected that.

Madhudviṣa: Yeah. So that resolution was wrong. And also the resolution about the women and the children coming to the temple, not accepting them, that was also wrong.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So now what's the point?

Madhudviṣa: So now they're rectified.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So now what is the point?

Madhudviṣa: I'm just saying that we should have a more practical understanding of this, of our attitude towards the whole situation.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why Prabhupāda corrected us.

Prabhupāda: So I think it may be further decided. Make a small committee of three or four gṛhasthas, and you define how you live.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, what about their relationship with the Society? This point was to... I don't understand why that is being avoided. In other words, how they should live, that they should have a committee for, but the fact that the Society cannot support them, that is not for them to decide. That is for the GBC to decide. That is my point.

Yaṣodānandana: I think that point, that's clear.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: As far as their living conditions, so let them have a committee.

Madhudviṣa: Yeah. I agree with that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. Then there's no disagreement. As long as you say we should not disclaim all of our resolutions.

Madhudviṣa: No, no, no.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, then it's all right.

Jayapatāka: Śrīla Prabhupāda is so merciful that if it comes to a point where it means that a person is not in Kṛṣṇa consciousness or in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, I think Prabhupāda'd rather support them and let them be Kṛṣṇa conscious. That's why you have to see whether they stay in the Society.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Dragging us back to Godhead.

Prabhupāda: When this paṇḍāl is going to be filled up?

Bhavānanda: The exhibits should be arriving today with the devotees, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Who are these men?

Bhavānanda: They are the paṇḍāl workers.

Prabhupāda: Paṇḍāl work... [break] Always, what is called...? Communism. They say, whole world, "We are Communists," "We are capitalists," "We are socialists," and "We are nonviolent," "We are violent."

Madhudviṣa: Dualism.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Madhudviṣa: Dualism?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not dualism. How many isms, nobody knows. But... What is called? Faction. Faction. Everyone is divided from the other.

Madhudviṣa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: So we should not bring that attitude in our Society. That is my request.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Envious. They're all envious.

Prabhupāda: That you should not do. And that unity is possible with..., only when harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21] is there constantly. Otherwise, it will be factional. What do you call? Factional is the right word?

Haṁsadūta: Yes, yes. Factional.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What about the distinction between the enjoying spirit and the renouncing spirit?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: For example, there is, as we have been discussing, between the brahmacārīs and the gṛhasthas... The brahmacārīs have this tendency---at least, this is the attitude---towards renunciation. And so far we can see, a brahmacārī who gives up his brahmacārī life means he's more inclined towards the enjoying spirit, at least to some extent. So how do we deal with this situation?

Prabhupāda: You can... If you want to enjoy, who can stop you?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we cannot..., we cannot support it. We cannot support his enjoyment. That he should take on his own self to do.

Prabhupāda: They... According to different position and attitude, the four āśramas are there = brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. This means that everyone is not on the equal platform. Different platform. But the whole idea is how to give up the propensity of enjoyment. That is wanted.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We find in the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam that Śukadeva Gosvāmī would approach the householders in the morning just so long as to give them a little bit of spiritual knowledge, and he would accept the offering of some milk. So the sannyāsīs and renunciates, generally, they wouldn't very much relish the association of householders because of this enjoying spirit and the association that it entails. So we're finding also within our Society that those who are inclined towards remaining celibate, they're finding the association of persons even within our movement who have this enjoying spirit to be somewhat detrimental to their own spiritual life.

Guru-kṛpā: Gṛhe thāko vanete thāko...

Prabhupāda: Then? What is your proposal? They should go away?

Madhudviṣa: Unless there is association, then they will never become purified.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who says they won't asso...? What is this discussion? This is not...

Madhudviṣa: It's not a resolution.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is not a good discussion either.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, but this is basically the problem.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, it's not the problem, because everyone comes together in a temple for kīrtana, for lectures, for prasādam. These things are common activities. There's no question that we should not have common activities between all the āśramas. These are the common ac... But for living, there must be separate arrangement.

Prabhupāda: Now, even in the temple, you were complaining, the husband and wife were talking.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That's living. That means living. That is not... They're not talking Śrīmad Bhāgavatam. [break]

Prabhupāda: That...

Bhavānanda: Separate woman's house, separate man's house.

Prabhupāda: That is our Indian system. They have got separate house for men, separate house for women, separate house for kitchen, separate house for toilet.

Bhavānanda: Very nice. Compound.

Prabhupāda: In Calcutta, we have seen our big, big Mullik family, separate house.

Bhavānanda: One brāhmaṇa village, Sharmapur, I went to, they all lived like that. They had five houses in a compound.

Prabhupāda: [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. A woman's house, nobody can go. Bahir bāri bhitara bāri. Bāhir bāri. Bāhir. Who can understand Bengali?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bāhir? "Outside," isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bāhir bāri. Bhitar bāri. Then pūjār bāri. Rāmnā bāri.

Jayapatāka: Kitchen.

Prabhupāda: Ah, kitchen. Not that within the apartment, all bāris. This is European invention.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bāri?

Prabhupāda: Bāri means house. In Gujarat they say wādi. Wādi.

Bhāgavata: Wādi, bhajan wādi.

Prabhupāda: It is the same thing, bāri. In Maharashtra also they say.

Bhāgavata: About attraction and aversion... There's...

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Attraction?

Bhāgavata: ...a point about attraction and aversion, that there's a complaint that sometimes there's too much aversion on the part of the brahmacārīs. But isn't that not a quality, to a point a brahmacārī should have a healthy contempt for sense gratification?

Prabhupāda: I do not follow.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's saying that sometimes the brahmacārīs, even the sannyāsīs, they may have a very strong aversion towards association with women and/or householder life, things of this nature. And sometimes the gṛhasthas will criticize the sannyāsīs and brahmacārīs that "This is fanaticism," or it's, to the other end, "It's just as bad as the enjoying spirit, because you're meditating on the same thing, but only you're averse to it." So what is the...? Bhāgavata dāsa's question is "What is the condition?" Is it better to be neutral or to be averse?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Neutral.

Prabhupāda: [chuckles] These are all fanaticism. Real unity is in advancing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. In Kali-yuga, you cannot strictly follow, neither I can strictly follow. If I criticize you, if you criticize me, then we go far away from our real life of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So is it correct to say that if we're not Kṛṣṇa conscious, then if it's not the gṛhastha problem, it would be some other problem?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We'll find something or another to absorb our time with besides Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, you should always remember that either gṛhastha or brahmacārī or sannyāsī, nobody can strictly follow all the rules and regulations of them. In the Kali-yuga it is not possible. So if I find simply fault with you, and if you find fault with me, then it will be factional, and our real business will be hampered. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended that hari-nāma, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, should be very rigidly performed, which is common for everyone = gṛhastha, vānaprastha or sannyāsī. They should always chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Then everything will be adjusted. Otherwise it is impossible to advance. We shall be complicated with the details only. This is called niyamāgrahaḥ. I think I have explained.

Madhudviṣa: In the Nectar of Instruction.

Prabhupāda: Niyamagrahaḥ is not good. Niyama means regulative principles. And niyama-āgrahaḥ is niyamāgrahaḥ. Āgrahaḥ means not to accept. Hmm? And niyama-āgraha. Āgraha means only eager to follow the regulative principles, but no advancement spiritually. Both of them are called niyamāgrahaḥ. So the basic principle is that niyamāgrahaḥ is not recommended. The real business is that if we advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, simple method, chanting twenty-four hours, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31], then things will be automatically adjusted. You cannot find in Kali-yuga everything is being done very correctly, to the point. That is very difficult. Just like our poet, Allen Ginsberg. He was always accusing me, "Swāmījī, you are very conservative and strict." Actually, I told him that "I am never strict, neither I am conservative. If I become conservative, then I cannot live here for a moment. [laughs] So I'm not at all conservative." [laughter] I was cooking, and I saw in the..., what is called, refrigerator of Yeargen, Yeargon? What is his...?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. [sic:] Jergen. That boy you were staying with.

Prabhupāda: Ah, ah! I saw he kept some pieces of meat for his cat. So still, I kept my things in that refrigerator. What can be done? I had no place at that time. Jaya. [break] ...will be little earlier?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm. The walk should be earlier.

Prabhupāda: Quarter to six. And class beginning quarter to seven. Because the sun is rising earlier.

Madhudviṣa: It's getting warmer.

Prabhupāda: [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. The foodstuff is supplied very nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now it's very nice.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So this should be maintained. [aside:] Thank you very much.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sufficient, ample, and very tasteful...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...nutritious. This Shantilal is very much accustomed to cooking for devotees, because when Gargamuni was in Calcutta for nearly two years, he was the chief cook there. So he knows just how to, how not to...

Prabhupāda: So he cannot give an equal good cook here?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, maybe he will be kept here.

Bhavānanda: He's staying.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think, personally, he should...

Guru-kṛpā: He's coming on the buses with Gargamuni.

Devotee: He wants to go on the buses.

Bhavānanda: He's going... [laughs]

Prabhupāda: [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Variety means beauty. [break]

Jayapatāka: We were going to bring from New York, I think.

Prabhupāda: Madhudviṣa Mahārāja will bring next year. Is it very expensive?

Guru-kṛpā: No, it's just...

Madhudviṣa: No, but the computer. You need one computer to run it.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So that is very costly.

Jayapatāka: Computers are very cheap nowadays.

Madhudviṣa: Yeah, it's very expensive. Actually, the electricity would be very expensive, the bill, which would probably be paid by Mahatva. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: No, if it is very expensive, don't do it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of course, an escalator is also expensive. If we're going to worry about expense, then... I think we should wait until we get that big building, the temple, because then, if you put it up there, it can be seen...

Madhudviṣa: In Calcutta.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even in Calcutta. Whereas this is not very high.

Madhudviṣa: [indistinct] things are cheaper now. [break]

Indian devotee (1): ...ignorance, ignorance.

Prabhupāda: No, those who are inclined, they can become. Jñānam vijñānam āstikyam [Bg. 18.42].

Indian devotee (1): Brahma karma...

Prabhupāda: So [Bengali] śūdra-paricaryātmākaṁ kāryam [Bg. 18.44]. They should be engaged in serving. But sva-karmana tam abhyarcya [Bg. 18.46]. Everyone should be engaged in the service of the Lord. That is perfection.

Indian devotee (1): Abhyāse samārtho 'si mat-karma-paramo bhava. So...

Prabhupāda: Ah. Mat karma paramo... We have got service for everyone. [Bengali] The modern civilization is everyone is sent for academic education. That is mistake, waste of time.

Indian devotee (1): [Bengali]

Prabhupāda: [Bengali] [break] [end]