Room Conversation , Māyāpur , 1976-01-16
Prabhupāda: If he does not read Bhāgavatam, then he remains a rascal.
Hari-śauri: Anything apart from the Vedas is not really knowledge.
Prabhupāda: No. May be some fragmental knowledge, but if one wants full knowledge in life, then he must read Bhāgavatam. Bhagavad-gītā is the preliminary ABCD, and then let him read Bhāgavatam. [break] ...venture, newspaper. [break] They have been taught like that. Andhā yathāndhaiḥ [SB 7.5.31]. They are passing as great leader for giving men wrong direction and spoil the life. He cannot save himself, and he can spoil himself very nicely.
Hari-śauri: People's minds are so flickering. There's so much disturbance.
Prabhupāda: The mind is the first creation for material enjoyment. From the mind, senses are created = five senses for knowledge-gathering and five senses for working, and five airs within the body. In this way the mind and fifteen. This is called ṣoḍāśa upacāra, sixteen. And then the ingredients, pañca-mahā-bhūta. Then intelligence, ahaṅkāra, false ego. These twenty-four, combination. And ātmā, jīva, and then Kṛṣṇa---twenty-six. The twenty-six combination is this body, mind, self, soul, Supersoul, everything.
Prabhupāda: So, I am ready.
Hari-śauri: I think it's just a little early yet, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Hari-śauri: Just a little early. It's still dark. I think ten minutes should be all right. Has this been used?
Hari-śauri: All right. I'll take it and wash it. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...is in ignorance. Combination of matter and soul, moving animals. Some of them are standing as trees and plant, and some of them are moving. Where is the science to study? What is your value of knowledge? Hmm? If they do not know the fundamental things, then what is the value of their knowledge? Simply observation, superficial, externally. There is good scope. They are receiving these books. We should take chance of preaching this Bhāgavatam, and the classes should be held especially... No, the religious classes are already there. Let them study Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā. And they will accept it. They are not fools. Simply we have to introduce it. The Western people, they are not fools, but misguided. So you take the charge of guiding them; then Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will be successful. They will appreciate, they will take it up and reform, and their life will be successful. And if they utilize their intelligence how to reduce population and kill child within the womb and "There is no soul in the womb. When they come out then the soul becomes..." What is this nonsense? Unless there is soul, how it becomes manifest?
Hari-śauri: It's obvious. If the body is growing within the womb, there must be life there.
Prabhupāda: The same process is going on from the very beginning. A body is formed, and it develops. The child is born... The same process is going on. How do you say there is no soul? If there is no soul, how it has developed within the womb? Such rascals, they are passing on as big scientists. What is the reason they don't believe that there is no soul?
Harikeśa: They have really no argument.
Prabhupāda: Just see. All dogmatic. All dogmatic foolishness they are propagating, and it is going on in the name of vijñāna, science.
Hari-śauri: If they admitted the existence...
Prabhupāda: Vijñāna should be enunciated, vigata-jñāna. Vigata... You understand vigata? Vigata means lost. So vijñāna, you can make two meanings. Viśiṣṭa-jñāna. Viśiṣṭa, vi means... Viśiṣṭa means full, explained knowledge. You can make this meaning. And another meaning you can do. Vi means vigata, "lost." So vigata-jñāna. Their vijñāna means vigata-jñāna, lost of all knowledge. So that is the word given in Bhagavad-gītā, māyayāprahṛta-jñānaḥ. This is vijñāna. You can explain in this way also. Māyayāpa... Māyā has taken away their knowledge, and that is going on as vijñāna, science. Māyā has made them rascal, and they are presenting themselves as the man of advanced knowledge. A rascal is representing himself as advanced in knowledge. That is the defect of Kali-yuga.
Hari-śauri: Advanced demoniac knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Advanced demon. Actually they are advanced demons, asura, asurī-bhāvam āśritaḥ, being infected with the contamination of atheism, godlessness. [chants japa]
Hari-śauri: They're actually very expert at avoiding the real issues.
Prabhupāda: That is... A child can also do that. That is not expert. A child can advance in foolishness without any guidance. If the child touches fire, and if somebody says, "This is advancement of knowledge," then imagine what is the position. Similarly, all these rascals, they are endeavoring. Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu. He endeavored all through how to become immortal, which is impossible. But he advanced in that foolishness. Hiraṇyakaśipu was such a big demon, his only idea was that "The devatās, they attack us sometimes. But now I shall attack them and plunder them. But because I am now practically immortal, what they will do? They cannot kill me. So I will go on with my demonic activities, and they cannot do anything." This is his foolishness. He did not know that he's the greatest foolishness that he was trying to become immortal. When it was said by Brahmā that "No, no, it is not possible," still, he expected that "I shall become immortal." Brahmā flatly said, "No, no, this is not possible. I am not immortal. How can I give you immortality?" But he would not hear even Brahmā. He thought that "In an indirect way I shall befool this man, Brahmā." "All right, sir, then give me this benediction." "What is that?" "I'll not die in the land." "All right." "Not in the water." "Yes." "Not in the air." "No, yes." So he thought that "These three things finished. Then where shall I die? There are three things only---land, water, sky. So he has given me benediction I shall not die anywhere of these three. So I have cheated now." And then, "I shall not die in daytime." "Yes." "I shall not die in nighttime." But māyā dictated that there is another space or another place between day and night. [laughs] That he forgot. That is called sandhyā. That is accepted.
Prabhupāda: But he forgot that. And Kṛṣṇa is more intelligent. He.... Hiraṇyakaśipu was not killed in daytime or nighttime. He was killed in the sandhyā. And so far land, sky and water is concerned, that also was played with tricks, that He killed him on the lap. You cannot say it is land; you cannot say it is sky; you cannot say it is water. So Kṛṣṇa is so kind that His devotee, Brahmā, has given him this benediction... Without touching all those points. Hiraṇyakaśipu could not accuse Brahmā that "Sir, you have cheated me." "No. Whatever you wanted, I have given you. You have cheated yourself. You do not know that your knowledge is imperfect. You cannot make it perfect. So that is your folly. But so far I am concerned, whatever you wanted, I said, 'Yes. Yes. Yes.' But I said also that 'In spite of all this, you'll never live.' That is not possible. But, you fool, you did not take care of it. So in spite of cunningness, you remained a fool. You thought that you are very intelligent, cunning = 'I am now fully equipped; nobody can kill me.' But I said that it is not possible. I never cheated you. You cannot say that I have cheated you."
Harikeśa: It's just like in the law. They try to make the law so perfect that no one can get around it. But always there is some very smart lawyer who finds a loophole.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Big lawyer means to find out fault with the present law. That is big lawyer. [break] ...to be more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa. That is... [laughs] But these rascals are trying to be more intelligent. Therefore they are called rascals, fools, mūḍha.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Moghāśā mogha-karmaṇo mogha-jñāna-vicetasaḥ [Bg. 9.12]. [break] ...Kṛṣṇa says simple thing, "You surrender unto Me. You'll get all protection." "No, no. That is not possible. I must do according to my own whims. Why shall I surrender?" "All right, go on. I'll give you facility for executing your whims. You'll get it. You do. Try your..." This is going on. Kṛṣṇa is giving good advice; he'll not accept it. So Kṛṣṇa is so kind, "All right, you do in your own way. I shall give you all facility." This is going on. That facility is māyā---his mind and māyā. He is desiring. That mind is also given by māyā, so that he can punish him very severely. So māyā has given as mind = "Now you go on desiring. After desiring, desiring, I will give you facility."
Harikeśa: Mind is an agent of punishment.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this material mind. You see a madman = he is also acting in his mind. The mind is polluted; he is acting differently. Mind is there, but it is covered by some infection. Therefore a madman is thinking this way, that way, this way, that way. That's all.
Hari-śauri: Constant anxiety.
Prabhupāda: Useless. Killing himself.
Hari-śauri: Sometimes a person who goes mad, they have to put them in a padded cell so that they don't harm themselves.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise he will create disadvantage to others. This is the cell---whole material world. You keep yourself within this cell and go on with your madness of mind. Still, Vedic instruction is there that if you do this way, then you go to that planet. If you do this way, then you go to here. Still, there is good. But within that, Kṛṣṇa is saying, mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām [Bg. 9.25] = "But you can come to Me also." But he will not take that instruction.
Hari-śauri: Coming to Kṛṣṇa means they have to give up all their own personal desires.
Prabhupāda: Yes, everything is there; simply we have to accept it. If we don't accept it, we suffer. What can be done? If you accept the path of going to hell in spite of higher authorities' instruction, then who can save me? That is going on.
Prabhupāda: He is thinking he has become very intelligent that he can deceive God, deceive spiritual master and be happy. [laughs] He does not know that he can neither deceive God or His representative, guru. That is not possible. But he is thinking like that. And he is being put into suffering condition. Just like ordinary thieves and rogues, they think, "I am deceiving government." But government has got so many agents that he will be arrested. But this sinful government may not be so expert, but how he can deceive the government of Kṛṣṇa? That is not possible.
Harikeśa: There's undercover agents in everybody.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere, every direction.
Hari-śauri: The land, the sky, the...
Hari-śauri: ...sun, moon. Everything is witness.
Prabhupāda: They are bearing the witness. And especially He is sitting within the heart of everyone, īśvaraḥ sarva... How can you deceive Him?
Hari-śauri: Kṛṣṇa knows more about what's going on than we do.
Prabhupāda: Anumantā upadṛṣṭā. Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata [Bg. 13.3]. How these rascals think that "I can deceive God"?
Harikeśa: Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna [Bg. 7.15].
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Mayācyuta.
Harikeśa: Vigata. Vigata-jñāna.
Prabhupāda: Vigata-jñāna, yes. Vijñāna.
Hari-śauri: Like children playing, they think that they've become a king or this or that, and they're completely absorbed.
Prabhupāda: Why children? The children---the father also.
Harikeśa: I think they're all ready. [end]