Morning Walk , Bombay , 1976-01-12

Prabhupāda: ...finalization. Huh? Festival?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Finalized the dates of the festival.

Prabhupāda: Or by telephone. What is this?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, I have to know today whether he's got the Ramlila Ground or not.

Prabhupāda: What is that ground?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ramlila Ground for the festival. He was trying for that. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...is also stopped?

Devotee (1): No, no, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's going on. [break]

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: One is Dr. Patel, and another man comes with him every morning. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...racing their cars for years together. And as soon as one car comes in our hand, within one hour finish and stand = "See that I have got a car." Make a show that "Here is a car." And for use, beg others, "Please give me your car." This is going on. [break] That Caitya-guru.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Caitya-guru. He is on the terrace doing his rounds. He is refusing to sign that letter, but he has turned over the possessions to me.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He has turned over...

Prabhupāda: No, no, he must sign the... Otherwise we shall have to inform.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He is refusing.

Prabhupāda: He must sign. He must sign. Otherwise we shall have to take steps.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He says, "First you prove that I'm guilty." But I said...

Prabhupāda: But this is your charge. You say that "I have not done it." Present him, and you say in writing that "I have never done it. Now I shall do it." Otherwise we shall have to do the needful. [break] ...go to Māyāpur. He is ready to go to Māyāpur?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He is ready to go to Māyāpur, but not right away. But he'll join you in Māyāpur.

Prabhupāda: Huh? No, he has to go with me.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Okay. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...the whole day he was [indistinct]. That Bengali gentleman?

Dr. Patel: Bhattacharya. I don't know him. He is staying here?

Prabhupāda: No. Where he is staying? You do not know. So did he come today in the maṅgala-ārati?

Dr. Patel: No, I don't know him, and I don't think I have seen him.

Devotee (2): Bhattacharya doesn't come to maṅgala-ārati.

Dr. Patel: ...the all Patels are giving you right now from Africa.

Prabhupāda: But not here.

Dr. Patel: Ninety percent of the... Here they are very poor. Those who are in States are rich.

Prabhupāda: You are not poor. We are poor. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: As compared to... We just live, no? Recently[?] we acquired for our status. We don't require much money.

Prabhupāda: [break] ...death.

Dr. Patel: Death is an artifact. There is no death. That is what Arjuna thought, and now, still, sir, you say they are dead. What is death? There is no death?

Prabhupāda: Arjuna's thought is different. That is Arjuna's thought. I mean these people, these materialists...

Dr. Patel: Acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam akledyo aśoṣya eva ca [Bg. 2.24].

Prabhupāda: ...they are actually dying and they are flying also.

Dr. Patel: Who is dying? The body. The body is nothing but the earth.

Prabhupāda: They have no such conclusions.

Dr. Patel: We have got, have we not?

Prabhupāda: We have got---that is a different thing---but they are trying to kill the mosquitoes to save themselves, but they cannot save. That is my point. They cannot save. When the "death mosquito" will come, he has to accept it. That he cannot manu...

Dr. Patel: He, after all, is what we call ego. When the ego dies, then, sir, there is no he or she or mosquito or man or anything, sir.

Prabhupāda: But he is not that man. He is trying to kill the mosquito to save himself from death. But that he cannot. That is my proposal.

Dr. Patel: Yes. He could at least save the American government from catastrophe, how to drain before finishing this Panama Canal. The Panama Canal is an engineering feat, sir. The two sides, seas, are uneven, and they have made locks in the... You must have seen that. No? They have locks. One side, sea is higher than the other, and they allow the ships to get to the middle lock, then pump in water and then bring on that side. Engineers must be knowing, you know. We had to study all these things, medical history.

Prabhupāda: So many medicines, vitamin D, vitamin C...

Dr. Patel: All medicines, sir, vitamins, and all even hormones...

Prabhupāda: But why not discover something that you will save from death?

Dr. Patel: But what is death, after all? Our forefathers found it out...

Prabhupāda: Then why you are trying to live?

Dr. Patel: We want to make you live little in a good way so that you can think well and solve your life. That is what we are doing. We don't want to keep your..., this body going on for all the time. Who says, sir? I think that is not the aim of the medical profession, to keep...

Prabhupāda: But they have to accept, because they cannot do it.

Dr. Patel: We give you health, sir, from the disease. We don't...

Prabhupāda: You cannot give health. Why he is dying?

Dr. Patel: Dying is not health. We talk of health and disease, not of the death and life.

Prabhupāda: No. Unless there is some disease you do not die.

Dr. Patel: No, what is disease? Disease is something...

Prabhupāda: Again you are coming to...

Dr. Patel: ...that is not physiological. The end of physiology is death.

Prabhupāda: So why you are trying to cure it?

Dr. Patel: We don't try to cure it. We... According to our whim, we try to help nature's natural process. Who knows? We may be going against nature, for all that. We don't know.

Prabhupāda: No, no. What is the value of your health if you do not save him?

Dr. Patel: The value of the health is being found out the world over.

Prabhupāda: That is, I am asking you. [laughs]

Dr. Patel: [laughing] You know it better. Why ask me? Modern science is especially to give chemistry and biology. They have learned so much. I mean, practically they have really reached that position which the vaiśeṣika śāstra reached in past. After all, Vaiśeṣika is one of the six darśanas. They also tried to prove the existence of God and God creation by that method, and that is a part of the... Because they also believed in Vedas. We are also trying to do the same thing by our own way. And real modern scientists have found out that nothing can happen without God. But you... In your time, when you were a student, scientists were atheists. Now scientists are not atheists, sir. So I beseech you to remove that idea from you. [break]

Prabhupāda: Well, impersonal philosophers are more dangerous than the atheist.

Dr. Patel: That you think.

Prabhupāda: No, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says.

Dr. Patel: Let's not discuss about this, not go into it.

Prabhupāda: He said, veda na maniyā bauddha haila nāstika. Vedāśraya bauddha-vāda nāstika ke adhika. We accept atheist, one who does not believe in the Vedas. Therefore we have rejected the Buddha philosophy. They could not exist in India. But those who are preaching atheism through Vedas, impersonal, they are more dangerous.

Dr. Patel: That impersonal preaching is not atheism.

Indian man: For example?

Prabhupāda: Anyone impersonalist---"God has no form." There are so many rascals. So he has got form to speak against God, and God has no form. This is going on all over the world. He speaks against the God, that "God is not a person." So he is a person, and God is not person. Just see their foolishness. He is made by God, and he is a person, and who made him, he is not a person. This is foolishness.

Indian man: Yes, there's a good sense in it.

Prabhupāda: Everything... But therefore they are senseless, that "I am person, my father is person..."

Indian man: No, my father is not my person.

Prabhupāda: No, no. It is understood that I am person, my father is person, his father is person, and the supreme father is not a person. Just see. If the supreme father is not a person, then wherefrom these personal fathers came here? Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam [Bg. 7.25]. "Mām"---this is person. The mūḍhas cannot understand that the supreme father is a person. Therefore Arjuna, at the..., when he understood Bhagavad-gītā, he declared that "It is very, very difficult..." [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. "...to understand Your personality. It is very, very difficult." Arjuna has said. And he has accepted Him as person, puruṣaṁ śāśvatam: "You are eternally person." Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramam, puruṣaṁ śāśvataṁ divyam ādyam [Bg. 10.12]. These things are there. The real understanding is there. And he said, "This is... This is accepted by Vyāsadeva, Nārada, Devala." Svayaṁ caiva: "And You are also speaking." Then where is the question of imperson? [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. And therefore He, Kṛṣṇa, says bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānvān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19] = "You are person; I surrender unto You"---this knowledge comes after many, many births of this impersonalist. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā: "That great mahātmā is very rare." So one who believes and accepts the Supreme as person, he immediately becomes a mahātmā. Otherwise he remains durātmā.

Dr. Patel: Small ātmā. He's a mahātmā; he's a small ātmā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man: Who believe in that?

Prabhupāda: Believe... Not only believe, but convinced, "Yes, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]." Then he is mahātmā.

Dr. Patel: Everything is Vāsudeva. There is nothing excepting God. In that way there is no māyā because māyā is also a part of God.

Indian man: In bhakti you surrender. Then you get the jñāna.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man: After bhakti you get the jñāna. [Hindi with Prabhupāda] We mūḍhas, we go on argument, but unless and until we mūḍhas are convinced, we will remain mūḍhas. We can't help it.

Prabhupāda: There are big mūḍhas who are never convinced.

Dr. Patel: Like me. [laughs]

Indian man: Like us, yes.

Prabhupāda: No, no, listen...

Dr. Patel: I will argue with you instead of... Mahārāja, you see, I have... Again we had a very great altercation within myself. I was a... [break] I may tell you, I have studied the Vaiṣṇava's philosophy from various angles. The last two years I have been making a very deep study of it, and I am a student of this theology and philosophy. I think he is absolutely right, that complete surrendering to God by bhakti...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: ...you get complete jñāna.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's it.

Dr. Patel: I was... Before I thought it was not so, but it is so.

Indian man: But as you are convinced, but I am not convinced.

Dr. Patel: Therefore you read like me and you will be convinced. You study like me, go to temple...

Prabhupāda: Then you are still a mūḍha.

Indian man: Yes, I am still a mūḍha. According to you, I am a mūḍha. But according to me, though I am mūḍha, but I don't feel that I am mūḍha. "The man who knows not but who knows not that he knows not, he's a first-class fool." Like that.

Prabhupāda: That is the great problem of the mūḍhas, that he is mūḍha, but he is thinking, "I am not mūḍha."

Indian man: Yes, that is the point. Everybody knows it.

Dr. Patel: Now, you see, impersonal and personal God, I am talking. I... Perhaps you may not like. You know, the people... You see, impersonal God is nothing but the emanation of God. As he said, the brahma-jyotir, or what as he once gave me that example, that sun and its rays, if you put a sort of a mirror, you see the same sun there through the rays. Don't you? In the same way, you may see God everywhere that way, but real God is sun. Like that, God is there, but His emanation is Brahman. Para-brahman is God; Brahman is jyoti.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Am I right?

Prabhupāda: Very good. Thank you very much.

Devotees: Jaya!

Dr. Patel: So you go to Brahman but not to Para-brahman. When you try to realize Para-brahman, that is personal God; Brahman is impersonal God. Right, sir?

Prabhupāda: And He says, brahmaṇo 'haṁ pratiṣṭhā [Bg. 14.27] = "Brahmajyoti is emanating from Me." Brahmajyoti, although impersonal, it is coming from Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: So I will one day preach in your place. [laughs] I will... [Hindi] I was a professor in college, and I have got a knack of explaining everything. Yes.

Indian man: So, all right. I will be your śiṣya.

Dr. Patel: And then you become his śiṣya, that's all. Indirect śiṣya. For the last two year I have been only reading all the great writings of Vaiṣṇava saints and Vaiṣṇava ācāryas, because I read a lot of Śaṅkarācārya and others, and even, even post---what do you call---Buddhist philosophy, different lines, half a dozen of them. When I read the Vaiṣṇavas' teaching I think that... Personally, you see, there are so many children, but your own son, you say, "This is my son." The personal relationship, when established, takes you far ahead psychologically. Am I right, sir? That is how personal God...

Prabhupāda: And if you take care of your own son, nobody will criticize you, that "Why are you taking care of your own son, not others?" Nobody will... That is natural. That is explained in the Bhagavad... Samo 'haṁ sarva-bhūteṣu [Bg. 9.29]. He is equal to everyone. But one who is a devotee, "I take special care."

Dr. Patel: "He is in Me, and I am in him."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: That is why all the great bhaktas, all the great, I mean, say, Narsi Mehta or Mirabai, they have worshiped personal God and merged in personal God in toto. Their, that what we call that ego is washed away by the sacred, I mean, this thing of God. Our impersonal philosophers are there, but they are not so well known. That is why he said that personal God and, I mean, worshiping personal God, you are immediately raised to that status from where you will be able to get jñāna. [break]

Prabhupāda: There was one teacher in my school, he used to say that "One who is slow to understand, he is slow to forget also."

Dr. Patel: Yes, that's a fact. It's really a fact.

Prabhupāda: And one who understands quickly, and he forgets quickly. So Dr. Patel has understood slowly. So he'll never forget it.

Dr. Patel: But I...

Indian man: Actually that is a fact.

Dr. Patel: I have been very critical within myself. All my... All my studies, medical, otherwise, I have been always critical...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes, critical...

Dr. Patel: I have studied even geology...

Prabhupāda: Critical student, that is...

Dr. Patel: ...out of just fun, what it is about. I am a student all round.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [Hindi] [break] It is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena [Bg. 4.34]. Paripraśna is required, but after praṇipāta.

Dr. Patel: Surrendering yourself. In school also they say if you develop a sort of a liking for your teacher, a sort of a reverence is developed in you, and then you get knowledge much quicker.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: If you take your teacher to be a servant of yours, then you won't...

Prabhupāda: That is Vedic principle. Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau [ŚU 6.23]. Then he'll get knowledge. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: That is why guru brahma gurur viṣṇur guruḥ sākṣād maheśvaraḥ.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is fact. Sākṣād dharitvena samasta-śāstraiḥ. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says, guru-kṛṣṇa-krpā: "By the mercy of guru and Kṛṣṇa."

Dr. Patel: Guru is a go-between God and we ourselves.

Prabhupāda: Yes, via media, via media.

Dr. Patel: He holds your hand and gives that hand to God. That is guru. That is what I think. Am I right in a way?

Prabhupāda: Transparent medium. [break] [Hindi with guests] ...realization.

Dr. Patel: Realization is more important. Realization. Unless you realize, all is anti-thought. Sāksād paro gatim.

Prabhupāda: Just like I am seeing you; you are seeing me.

Dr. Patel: That is saksad...

Prabhupāda: That is...

Dr. Patel: Just as you know that hydrogen and oxygen when brought together forms water. But then you make it and see it... [break]

Prabhupāda: ...tato bhāvaḥ sādhakānām ayam premnaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ [Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.4.16]. [break] Vaiṣṇava doesn't make any discrimination that "He is Hindu," "He is Muslim," "He is this and that." He takes everyone as servant of Kṛṣṇa. [break] In India the caste brāhmaṇas criticize me, that "Swami Bhaktivedanta is putting Hindu dharma ruin." Yes.

Dr. Patel: Bhagavad-gītā never... I think cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Not by birth vibhāgaśaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Never.

Dr. Patel: It is by guṇa and karma.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Not by position of birth.

Prabhupāda: No, it is clearly explained by Nārada Muni that one has to be judged by the qualification. If the qualification... Yady anyatrāpi diśetaḥ. If the qualification is somewhere else, then he must be designated by that qualification. Just like... [Hindi] ...doctor's... [Hindi] [break] ...qualification of medical man and you are practicing, that's all. Who is concerned with your caste?

Dr. Patel: So catur-varṇa is according to guṇa and karma.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Not according to his birth and position of money, birth and wealth.

Prabhupāda: And anyone can be trained up to be qualified. That medical science is open to everyone. It is not that "Such and such caste can come here." No. Anyone, if you are qualified, that's all. They are accusing me that I am ruining Hinduism, but they have ruined the Hinduism.

Dr. Patel: You say, sir, "The Bengalis have ruined Hinduism; I am salvaging it." Another Bengali is salvaging the ruined Hinduism. Bengalis ruined the... Whole Bengal, half of Bengal turned Islamic and this because of these...

Prabhupāda: That is everywhere. In Punjab also. Punjab also, the same thing.

Dr. Patel: One man was cast out and he was not taken back, so he converted half of the Bengal into Islam.

Prabhupāda: No. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is = "Doesn't matter what you are. Now you become trained up. Whatever you are, it doesn't matter."

Dr. Patel: But so many Muslims have become very good, I mean, Vaiṣṇava saints.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: There are some examples in Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: And I have got many disciples.

Dr. Patel: Vṛndāvana, there are two, three of them. I mean, not here, but Arabics.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Caitanya Mahāprabhu converted many Pathans to become Vaiṣṇava. He changed the name. One Pathan was named Rāmadāsa. Just like I have changed Ramjan into Rāma-rañjana, Attar Marz into Ātreya Ṛṣi.

Dr. Patel: Ātreya. You have got such chelās there?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: No, I think we must... If... Now the modern world is getting smaller and smaller and, I mean, the Islamic countries are also getting women with the modern sciences and...

Prabhupāda: When I was in... What is called? Tehran. Tehran. Many Muslims were coming.

Dr. Patel: Tehran are all Āryans. They are more enlightened people.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: In fact, they were the real Āryans. Iran.

Prabhupāda: Iran, yes. Āryan.

Dr. Patel: That Gāthā is practically sixty percent Sanskrit language.

Prabhupāda: Gāthā?

Dr. Patel: Gāthā. They have got a... These Zoroastrians read Gāthā just like Bhagavad-gītā. I have read it. I could understand very easily because it's Sanskrit direct language. One professor has come from United States. He is staying here in a school of Parsis, and I am the doctor of that school. He said that this is completely Vedic religion. He has studied the Vedic philosophy also. He is teaching theology in some university of United States. He stays here in this... [break] ...worse than, I think, most...

Prabhupāda: But it is democracy. Because we are sinful, we have made a sinful government. It is democracy. Formerly the personal monarchy... There is no monarchy. It is democracy.

Dr. Patel: It is demon-cracy.

Prabhupāda: Demoncracy, yes.

Dr. Patel: Demoncracy.

Prabhupāda: Why you accuse government? Government is your election.

Dr. Patel: Now she is not going to have any more elections. "Elections are not necessary. People have given me the mandate to rule over them."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. If the dictator, executive officer, is very nice, religious, then there is no need of this election.

Dr. Patel: Oh, she goes to the temples, all right. [laughs] [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: No, no. She has got the tendency of spiritual life, and she requires improvement. That's all. She has spoken in Chandigarh that "Now we require spiritualism." Hmm?

Dr. Patel: [Hindi] She is shamming, sir. Shamming. Shamming. She is not truthful to any of her words.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Dr. Patel: She is not truthful to what she says. [break]

Prabhupāda: Any circumstances, they can adjust. [break] Oh, Gaṅgā-sāgara.

Śrīdhara: Yes. That's on the fourteenth. Tomorrow.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...stand where there is water, then they will manage everything. Water must be there. [break]

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...Americans to live like this is totally impossible. They'd have to commit suicide. If they can't find the bathroom they won't know what to do, they have to pass stool. But water won't concern them because they don't bother bathing. They need a toilet, though. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...for taking bath in the junction of Ganges and the sea. Just see how people are enthusiastic, coming from long, long distance, Gaṅgā-sāgara. Gangā means Ganges, and sāgara means the sea. [break] ...it means they keep their loṭā, you see. [break] ...bathing in this cold water.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...they'd be bothered by the boats being here.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't seem to be bothered by these boats.

Prabhupāda: No. No. [break] ...childhood I was taking bath. I used to come with my mother. She took bath; I also took bath.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [laughs] She'd bring you. [break] Madhya Pradesh? [break]

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are coming from so far. Rajasthan.

Prabhupāda: Yes. [break]

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...try to do this you get arrested---living on the street, bathing in the river.

Prabhupāda: [chuckles] [break]

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jayapatāka is very intelligent. He could understand if we weren't there, we must be here. He looks like Vivekananda with that hat.

Prabhupāda: [chuckles] [break] And see how their loṭā is cleansed.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Shiny. Is that a special point, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That means that how cleansed they are. That is the point. [break] ...is if their loṭā is so cleansed, how they are personally clean. [end]