Room Conversation , New Delhi , 1975-12-14

Bhāgavata: ...explaining to them the glories of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and pure devotional service so that they may go back to home, back to Godhead, and become liberated from the realms of birth and death in this material world.

Prabhupāda: Is that all right, what he said? So, how to help them?

Devotee: First we give them the chanting, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee: First we give them the mahā-mantra.

Prabhupāda: Mahā-mantra, one may not accept.

Bhāgavata: We have to find the ways and the means by which we can make pure devotional service attractive to each living entity according to his particular...

Prabhupāda: Unless one feels necessity, why they will accept your proposal, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa"? How you'll make them feeling, "Yes, it is necessary"? That is wanted. Otherwise, anyone will say, some proposition, "You do this." Then why they will accept it?

Devotee: Hmm. We have to make...

Prabhupāda: Unless he feels that... That requires philosophy. If you say something dogmatic, why they'll accept? You say that "You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," he'll say, "I have no interest. I have no interest. Why shall I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa?"

Devotee: Tell them that they are eternal spirit soul.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee: You tell them that you are eternal spirit soul. Tell them about the eternal spiritual world, the eternal spiritual...

Prabhupāda: That you have to convince, that "You are eternal, but you are falsely engaged in temporary business." That you have to tell them.

Bhāgavata: We have to give them knowledge. Knowledge consists of telling them what is the field, who is the knower of the field, and who is the super-knower of the field. Once they get knowledge, knowledge is the preliminary step to executing devotional service. Once they have knowledge, then they will be able to execute devotional service. And Rūpa Goswami says that one who executes devotional service in knowledge, he increases his knowledge. Therefore the first thing is we should give them knowledge, and knowledge means to understand this body, the owner of the body and the supreme owner of the body, Kṛṣṇa. Puṛuṣa prakṛti caiva kṣetra kṣetrajñam eva ca.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?


puṛuṣa prakṛti caiva
kṣetra kṣetra-jñam eva ca
etad veditum icchāmi
jñāna jñeya ca keśava

[Bg. 13.1]

"What is the field; what is the puruṣa, the enjoyer; what is prakṛti, nature; what is the kṣetra, the field; what is the kṣetrajñor, the knower of the field; what is knowledge; and what is the end of knowledge. These things I wish to know," icchāmi.

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Bhāgavata: And Kṛṣṇa answers him. He says that ida śarīra kaunteya---"My dear Kuntī, śarīraṁ, this body, kṣetrajña..., kṣetrajnam..."

Prabhupāda: Not "My dear Kuntī."

Bhāgavata: "My dear son of Kuntī."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhāgavata: Kṣetram ity abhidhīyate, that "This body is known as the field." Kṣetram ity abhidhīyate. Etad yo vetti ta prāhu kṣetrajña iti tad-vidaḥ, that "This body is known as the field, and one who knows this field, he is the knower of the field, he is the knower of the body."

Prabhupāda: Hmm. So how to explain? Everyone is acting. How he is acting on the field, that is stated next verse. Field of activities. In English it is called field of activity. So that field of activity is this body. According to the body one begins his... Just like one born in the dog's body, so the dog care... They, from the very beginning, they are searching after a master. You have seen the small?

Hari-śauri: Pup.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They follow some gentleman. And because at that time it is good living, somebody takes charge, "All right let me take this pup." And the children also like, so he gets some shelter. So similarly, according to different body, the activities begins. Therefore body is the field of activities. Hmm? A snake, because he has got the field of activity of a snake's body, from the very beginning he is very, very envious. The same, trying to bite others. In this way our activities begin according to the body. And this change of bodies take place in the lower animal life automatically, by nature's law. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. But when comes to the form of a human being, on account of developed consciousness, he has got responsibility. He has to make his choice. He is suffering in this material world, changing in different types of bodies, one after another, and the propensity to lord it over the material world is going on. Now he has to change the consciousness, whether he wants to continue this propensity for lording over the material world, or he wants to surrender to Kṛṣṇa.

This choice has to be made by the human being. If he makes his choice after getting good education from the right source, that "I am going on in the wrong way by the desire to lord it over the material nature, but I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, therefore I must surrender now," bahūnām janmanām ante jñānavān mām... [Bg. 7.19]. This is wisdom. And if we do not get this wisdom, simply like animals we continue to lord it over the material nature by acquiring money---dharma, artha, kāma---then we are spoiling our life. Separate times we become religious for being promoted to higher standard of life---economic development, big, big scheme, plans, how to make very ni..., gorgeous city, buildings, roads, cars, slaughterhouse, scientific, how to cut throat very scientifically. These plans are going on. Some of them are trying to be religious to go to the heaven, because he has heard, and that's a fact also, that heavenly planets the standard of living is more opulent, hundreds and thousands times; the sex enjoyment is hundred and thousand times better. So by so-called religious functions, sacrifices... The aim the same, how to satisfy senses. And the dog is also anxious to satisfy his senses. As soon as he finds a female dog, he wants to make friendship with her and have sex. On the street, never mind. And similarly the demigods they are also doing the same business, in a different standard only. The business is the same. Āhāra-nidrā-bhayam etam.

So if one wants to continue this business then he'll continue this material body, and if he wants to stop this business, come to his original position, then he makes real progress in life. But nobody is interested in advancement of spiritual life. Generally they take to religion, religiosity, for material happiness. Artho arthārthī. I am distressed, I have no money, or I am suffering from some disease---you'll find all these. So all of them go to the sādhu only for this purpose. "Sir, I am suffering from some disease, so without going to the doctor, and saving so much money, let me pay hundred rupees to the sādhu, and he'll give me his blessing. So I will save thousands of rupees for curing the disease." For this purpose they go to sādhu. Nobody goes to sādhu for going back to home, back to Godhead. It is only we are proposing. Otherwise the so-called yogīs, sādhus, svāmīs, they are making good-luck business simply by promising that you'll get this material power. This Mahesh Yogi, he says that... What is his philosophy?

Harikesa: He says that if you renounce now, you can enjoy later. That if you take some austerity now, like meditation, abstaining from certain things, that later on you can enjoy sex life unlimitedly, have clear intelligence unlimitedly, and ultimately become the...

Prabhupāda: The Mahesh Yogi, TM. Transcendental Meditation. But I don't think they say that if you undergo austerities you...

Harikesa: No, that was in the beginning they were saying. He said...

Prabhupāda: Oh, now he has changed!

Harikesa: Now he has changed, because it was too unpopular.

Prabhupāda: It is business.

Bhāgavata: Rajneesh is also like that.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Bhāgavata: Rajneesh, same philosophy, that you...

Prabhupāda: Hmm. But they do not know. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ [SB 7.5.31]. These rascals, they do not know what is the actual aim of life. They are, in the groups of ordinary men, they are doing some business, as somebody does business by opening sweetmeat shop. So they have opened this transcendental TM shop, that's all. Cheating. Cheating. So all of them are going on, cheating. Nobody knows the real interest is to go back to home, back to Godhead. Nobody knows. Ask any so-called sādhu, yogī, svāmī---they do not know [indistinct]. They read Bhagavad-gītā, but they do not understand. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama [Bg. 15.6]. So what do they understand, these... Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. They do not believe all these things, therefore they say... Swami Chinmayananda says that whatever is necessary we shall accept; other ślokas we shall reject. This is his..., this rascal's philosophy. As if Kṛṣṇa has said something superfluous. They say like that. And the other day some gentleman came, that "It is fictitious writing." You were present?

Haṁsadūta: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: "Why not silent?" Kṛṣṇa is not silent. Kṛṣṇa is speaking. Why you should be silent when I challenge you like this? He said. He could not answer. This is going on. So many things they are doing; if they are challenged, they cannot answer. You were present? I told him, "Why silence? Kṛṣṇa is not silent. He says continually, bhagavān uvāca, page after page, and he's saying, 'Why he should be silent?' " He gave me the information that [indistinct] was silent, and anyone who would go to him, he would remain silent, and the message will be transferred.

Bhāgavata: Rajneesh says the same thing. Rajneesh, he says that Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna did not speak. Kṛṣṇa simply looked at Arjuna and Arjuna understood. But in order for Dhṛtarāṣṭra to understand, because he was blind, Sañjaya is speaking and he is explaining everything, and Vyāsdeva has written down what Sañjaya has explained. This is..., that is what Rajneesh says like that. So why does Sañjaya say bhagavān uvāca?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Sañjaya heard, then he said?

Bhāgavata: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So then Kṛṣṇa is speaking; otherwise how he heard? Hmm? This nonsense is going on everywhere. It is very difficult position. So many rascals, and we have to push on our movement through so many obstacles, but still we are going on. That is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Otherwise we are simply meeting with obstacles. What can be done? We have to go forward. I..., I met in so many, same idea = impersonalism, bogus thought, and no clear idea.

Bhāgavata: One man came to Calcutta temple, and he insisted that Kṛṣṇa was impersonal, that He had no form, that He was, ultimately, just the Brahman. I said that Kṛṣṇa says in the Gītā, brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham. He says, "That aham means the Brahman." I said that if that aham means the Brahman, then why is Kṛṣṇa being redundant in saying that the Brahman is subordinate to the Brahman? Brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham. He just said "Brahman is subordinate to aham, Me." So if aham means Brahman, then why is Kṛṣṇa saying the Brahman is subordinate to the Brahman?

Prabhupāda: Therefore these rascals, the same. No clear understanding, and they are svāmīs, yogīs and avatāras. It is very dangerous position, very dangerous. We have to deal with all rascals and fools. And they have made some position. Of course, that position is nothing. Hmm? A big, big, I mean, Mr. Nanda is also a victim of this idea, nirveśeṣa-śūnyavādī. Still, we cannot change our position. We must go with our conviction, and that is real, reality. So, begin kīrtana. [end]