Morning Walk , Bombay , 1975-11-07

Bhāgavata: ...for the Gaura Pūrṇimā festival this year.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Bhāgavata: On the land at the Caitanya Maṭha, at Caitanya Mahāprabhu's birth site. [break]

Dr. Patel: ...to me.

Prabhupāda: No, not to you. [laughter]

Dr. Patel: You were explaining to me.

Prabhupāda: No. No, no. I am explaining to everyone that "Whose business he struck?" That is the way. [Hindi saying] ...that "In the assembly there is some talks, but the talks which is concerned to somebody, he becomes sorry."

Dr. Patel: You did not consult me, but I wanted to know the explanation.

Prabhupāda: No. The explanation... [laughter] Now this doll should be displayed = that laboratory, they are testing urine, stool, and somebody is asking, "Here is a dead man. Why don't you test the urine and stool of this dead man and give him some injection?" This kind of doll should be displayed. The people will be interested. So I will give you suggestion. Not that stereotyped = "If one is doing something, I have to follow that." You should do something...

Bhāgavata: Unique.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is wanted. It is already there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Bhāgavata: Things show... Dolls displaying practical examples of the philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many things in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavata. Just like a dog is swimming, and somebody captures the tail of the dog and he thinks that "The dog will help me to cross the ocean." This kind of... So everyone is trying for liberation, but they are catching the tail of a dog for liberation.

Dr. Patel: He must get the ship in the form of God's name. Hmm?

Prabhupāda: In this way, practical instruction. Taking to yoga system, karma system, this system, that system, but he does not know that these are like the dog's tail. Nobody...

Dr. Patel: [laughing] They are criticizing you.

Prabhupāda: No, it is practically. Yes. You cannot cross over the sea by capturing the tail of a dog because you see the dog is swimming. So all this karma, jñāna, yoga, they are all failure. It is just like dog tail. You cannot cross over the nescience by capturing dog's tail. You must capture the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. Tan aham... Eh?

Yaśomatīnandana: Eśa tat...

Prabhupāda: No. Samuddhartā mṛtyu-saṁsāra-sāgarāt [Bg. 12.7]. And explain the Bhagavad-gītā śloka. Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-sāgarāt. From this ocean of birth and death, if one wants to be saved, he must come to Kṛṣṇa, not to the dog's tail.

Dr. Patel: Come to the ship of Kṛṣṇa. That is what we are deciding.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: [laughing] That you are not coming to the point of the..., quickly.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In this kind of---Bhagavad-gītā śloka, Bhāgavata śloka, and doll exhibition. So you prepare. I will give you the suggestion.

Dr. Patel: Sir, I have one point to ask you, that Vyāsa Bhagavān was not satisfied doing all these things, and he finally composed the Bhāgavatam. But even Mahābhārata can be called equal to any of them. Mahābhārata, with the Bhagavad-gītā in... With the Vidura-nīti, with the Viṣṇu-sahasra-nāma and all these things can be equal to any other...

Prabhupāda: Stri-śūdra-dvija-bandhūnām [SB 1.4.25]. It is meant for less intelligent class of men = stri, woman; śūdra; and dvija-bandhu. Dvija-bandhu means persons who are born in high family but they have no education. Just like a man born in brāhmaṇa family...

Dr. Patel: Brahma-bandhu.

Prabhupāda: ...but without education, without qualification, he wants to become a brāhmaṇa. They are called brahma-bandhu or dvija-bandhu. So Mahābhārata is meant for the..., these persons = stri-śūdra-dvija-bandhunam. They cannot understand directly the Vedic injunctions, therefore it is simplified in a history. Mahābhārata is the history. History and stories, ordinary people they can read with interest. But those who are advanced, they want higher philosophical thoughts. That is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ vāstava-vastu vedyam [SB 1.1.2]. Nigama-kalpa-taror galitaṁ phalam idam [SB 1.1.3]. It is meant for higher class. So there are different literatures for different persons. Why there are eighteen Purāṇas = sāttvika, rājasika, tāmasika? Those who are tāmasika, for them it is advised...

Dr. Patel: Devī Purāṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Yes, you can eat meat. There is no harm. But you get it sacrificed before Goddess Kālī." But this is not meant for the high-class brāhmaṇa. This is meant for the third-class dvija. But still, he is induced to accept some authority. In this way there are Purāṇas. Somebody is recommended to worship Lord Śiva, somebody is recommended to worship Kālī, Durgā, Sarasvatī, many demigods. But Nārada Muni chastised his disciple that "You have done wrong. Why you have recommended all these things?" Jugupsitam. That is said there, that "People will take your authority, and they will be engaged in worshiping different demigods." Actually that is not required. Then he compiled Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, only the Supreme Lord worshiped. The same thing as Kṛṣṇa explained, mām ekam. That is success. So Vyāsadeva was very much...

Dr. Patel: But, sir, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], He has already said in Mahābhārata also, you know?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes.

Dr. Patel: He composed Mahābhārata much before he composed Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Mahābhārata... Gītā is part of Mahābhārata.

Dr. Patel: That is what I said. He has already mentioned that, mām ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: "Those people who are worshiping other devas, they go to the other devas' house, and those who worship Me, they come to Me." Hmm?

Prabhupāda: So that is explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavata. So if Tīrtha Mahārāja is displaying...

Bhāgavata: Yes, Jayapatāka Mahārāja told me he was there. He saw the construction, and it's going to be two stories high, 75 feet long by 30 feet wide, and they're going to have dolls on both floors, Caitanya-līlā.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. That's all right. You can do.

Bhāgavata: But we should make different līlās, different dolls.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Modern men will understand Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam by display of dolls.

Dr. Patel: What are the dolls you are talking about all this time? We don't... I don't know, sir. What it means?

Prabhupāda: Dolls means the Bhāgavata śloka explained by doll display. Just like in your medical science there are sometimes...

Dr. Patel: Models.

Prabhupāda: Models, yes.

Dr. Patel: Just you are doing pictures in your Bhāgavata...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Like that, with a models.

Prabhupāda: Models. Yes, exactly the word, model. You can display... Everything is there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, this anatomic, physiologic, how the child is growing within the womb of his mother.

Bhāgavata: Different...

Prabhupāda: Yes. One day, fifth day, and like that. In seven months how it is developed. Everything is there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavata. Then you can display the hell, different hells.

Girirāja: Different hells.

Bhāgavata: Hells. Oh, Fifth Canto.

Prabhupāda: Yes. How one is going by cheating others, by stealing. So everything. You can display, what is called? That planetary system? Eh?

Indian man (1): Planetarium?

Prabhupāda: Planetarium. According to planetarium.

Dr. Patel: They have got a big planetarium in Calcutta.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they have got, but we have also got. So it is little difference. Just like we are calculating that the sun is the beginning of the planets, sun, then moon. Therefore we say "Sunday, Monday." This is very quite reasonable. Tuesday.

Dr. Patel: And Tuesday is next word, because Maṅgala.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And planet is 1,006,000 miles above, above. And Saturday, Saturn, is the last. So now sun is calculated to be 93,000,000's miles from earth, and if the moon is still further 1,600,000, then it becomes about fifteen hundred thousand miles. No. Fifteen million miles. So how they are going, in four days, fifteen millions?

Dr. Patel: You ask me?

Prabhupāda: Yes. [laughter]

Dr. Patel: Well, sir, there is no going and coming. All are what we are, wherever.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is another thing. That is another thing, that with their this sputnik, how they can go in four days fifteen millions miles?

Dr. Patel: You see, in the cosmos, the whole cosmos is as big... Modern scientists understand it by what we call the force of attraction and repulsion. When you go in between the two, there is no attraction, repulsion. Then you just have this, and it goes on.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Bhāgavata: So we should display the real planetary system...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhāgavata: As it really exists.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhāgavata: And then we can put underneath explanations in Bengali and English.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Dr. Patel: In Sanskrit and English, because Sanskrit contains Bengali and Gujarati and all.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a good idea, good idea.

Dr. Patel: I go, sir.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Time is up? Hare Kṛṣṇa.

[break] ...many things to be displayed by these models, and we can utilize that.

Bhāgavata: Like the pictures we have in the Bhāgavatam and the Gītā, then we can make them into doll displays, some of those pictures.

Prabhupāda: But the idea was that in our big temple I wanted to display.

Bhāgavata: Oh. You didn't want a separate building.

Prabhupāda: No. We wanted to display where is...

Passerby: Oh, haribol!

Prabhupāda: The Vaikuṇṭha planet, where is the Goloka planet, where is this material world---in this way.

Bhāgavata: So if that's what you want, then we should not make a permanent structure? We should make some temporary structure, like last year.

Prabhupāda: That you decide yourself.

Bhāgavata: So we should engage the local dollmakers in doing this.

Prabhupāda: First of all you have your place; then make dolls. But dolls should not be exactly in the same way. But when you make actually, then I will give you how the models should be made. Now, how to do, where to do, that, it is your business. You decide, some of yourself, and do the needful.

[to Saurabha] You have not yet done any plan for the big temple?

Saurabha: I have been asking Jayapatāka for about one year to please send me some plan of the land so that I can place all these buildings, because there is no...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's getting it done now.

Bhāgavata: The blueprints are done. Jayapatāka is revising them now. They are in Māyāpur. He is reviewing all the blueprints. They are all done. And when they are finished... When he finishes reviewing them, then we'll have them sent here immediately. I just sent them to Māyāpur.

Saurabha: As soon as I get the plans, I will make immediately, finish everything. We can make a master plan for the whole situation.

Prabhupāda: So ask him to send immediately site plan and begin.

Saurabha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And then others things will be there. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Tīrtha Mahārāja, for the last fifty years, he did not do anything. Now he is afraid. You know Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī?

Bhāgavata: In Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He approached me that "You just have a big hall in the Yogapīṭha." I immediately accepted, that "Yes, if you give us the charge we can spend immediately ten lakhs." [chuckles] So Śrīdhara Mahārāja has said that "If it is gone to Swami Mahārāja, then there will be no trace of Tīrtha Mahārāja." [chuckles] Therefore he is trying for that. So I think we shall have, according to our original plan, the temple, and in that temple we shall display all these dolls = "Here is Vaikuṇṭhaloka, here is this loka, this loka, this loka." That will be... [break] ...we make some arrangement for exhibition of our books very nicely.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They're going to have booths in Māyāpur.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That Tīrtha Mahārāja will not be able to show.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Never. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: He has no capacity.

Yaśomatīnandana: He will display only one Brahma-saṁhitā, that also by Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī.

Bhāgavata: So we will make a very nice book display. I will see that there is a very nice book display, where the Caitanya-caritamṛtas and the Bhāgavatams displayed.

[break] ...the governor of Bengal, and he was quite congenial. He was friendly. And he agreed that if we contact him and make the proper arrangements he might come and see you there when you come to Māyāpur.

Prabhupāda: Very nice.

Bhāgavata: I was thinking if we had him for the festival, to come to the festival, that would be a very prestigious...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Why don't you arrange for that? You have to arrange. Yes. [break] ...king. Their constitution, first word is, "The king can do no wrong." Yes, that is the Vedic system. Suppose a king beheads somebody by his own sword, as it was being done. Nobody can charge him that "Without any trial he has killed this man." No. Whatever he does... Just like we take Kṛṣṇa, apāpa viddham. Kṛṣṇa is never touched with any sinful activities. Apāpa-viddham. Tejiyasam na doṣaya [SB 10.33.29]. Just as the sun, because it is very, very powerful, nothing can infect it. These are the dangers already there. So of course, if you want to keep one in very exalted post, at the same time, if you want to find fault with him, then that is not good. That is not good. That is also stated, that arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhir guruṣu nara-matiḥ [Padma Purāṇa]. If somebody thinks that the Deity is made of stone and he criticizes, that is not allowed. If one thinks spiritual master as ordinary human being, that is not allowed. Arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhir guruṣu nara-matiḥ. So those who are in highly exalted post of the state, you cannot find out fault with him. That is real Vedic way. Otherwise, if he is taken as ordinary citizen, then he is... What is the meaning of his exalted post?

Indian man: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] You cannot find out fault with him. As like in the court, if you find out some fault with the judge, you will be punished immediately---"Contempt of court." You cannot do that. It will be punished, because while he is on the seat of the judge, if somebody finds out fault, then his position will be lower. That is not good. I think the judgment is right. Three persons---the president, prime minister and the speaker---cannot be..., what is called?

Indian man (2): [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Parliament can do, that "We have no faith." What is called? "No confidence."

Indian man (2): No confidence, yes.

Prabhupāda: "No confidence resolution." The Parliament has not done. "No confidence." So how the court can decide? [break] An open fact that this election... All elections are done illegally. So why this poor prime minister is captured? Everyone does. [Hindi conversation] [break] Military police.

Indian man (2): Yes, Prabhupāda. [Hindi] [break]

Prabhupāda: ...is occupying very exalted post, even in this material world, he is favored by Kṛṣṇa. Sanātana Gosvāmī, when the Nawab said that "I shall arrest you," then he replied that "You are representative of God, so if you arrest me I have no objection." He said that. He was Muhammadan, and he was a Hindu brāhmaṇa. He never felt that "How the Muhammadan can arrest me?" No. He said that "You are representative of God, because you are in such exalted post." [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Kṛṣṇa also says, "Anyone who is, materially even, very opulent, that means he has got some power." [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

[Hindi conversation] [break] [end]