Room Conversation , Nairobi , 1975-10-29

Prabhupāda: ...prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. By pleasing the spiritual master, you please Kṛṣṇa. That's nice. But why Kṛṣṇa should be pleased? Why? What is the necessity of pleasing Kṛṣṇa? Hmm?

Devotee (1): To please the representative of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that is all right. Guru is representative of Kṛṣṇa. But why one should bother himself for pleasing Kṛṣṇa? Answer this.

Devotee (1): 'Cause our real position is to serve Kṛṣṇa, and because we've fallen in this illusion of the material energy, so we forgot our position.

Prabhupāda: We shall do it; otherwise, why shall I please Kṛṣṇa? We are making scientific progress. What is the use of bringing God?

Devotee (2): Because we shall never become perfect or see the answer.

Prabhupāda: That is begging the question.

Indian man (3): For spreading the name of the Kṛṣṇa in the world.

Prabhupāda: No, no. It is not the question of guru. Guru is doing all right. Why you should be so much anxious and feel obligation to please Kṛṣṇa?

Indian man (4): Everybody has to serve somebody, so Kṛṣṇa is the reservoir of all pleasure, and everything exists from Him. So instead of serving anybody, we should serve the Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: "That's all right. Without serving Kṛṣṇa, I am getting pleasure by drinking wine. Why shall I...?"

Cyavana: That pleasure will not last. That pleasure is only temporary.

Prabhupāda: "No, I will not also last. That..." [laughter]

Cyavana: But to accept such a mentality, we say that is third class. Actually our life is eternal.

Prabhupāda: That is your statement, "third class," but my statement is, "It is first class." [laughter]

Harikeśa: Is it first class if every time you were going to eat something nice I was standing over you with a stick, and as soon as you took, I would beat you? So every time you have some enjoyment, there is some concurrent suffering. Like you enjoy the wine, but then you have a headache, hangover. You enjoy, then you get sick.

Cyavana: Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā in the Tenth Chapter, He says, "For those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I will give the understanding by which they can come to Me." So this is our desire.

Prabhupāda: "I don't want to go."

Cyavana: You don't want to go to Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: "Yes."

Harikeśa: All right, suffer. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: "I don't suffer. [laughter] I am enjoying."

Harikeśa: You are enjoying death and old age?

Prabhupāda: "Yes, you are putting upon me some impression, 'suffering,' but I am enjoying."

Harikeśa: Your knee is hurt. Is that enjoying?

Prabhupāda: "That I am curing. That is also nice." [laughter]

Harikeśa: But soon the whole thing will be finished. You will not... No one enjoys death. No one will take voluntarily a death pill.

Prabhupāda: Nobody of you could answer the question. Now I give you again chance to answer this question very properly. Why one should be obliged to please Kṛṣṇa? Why?

Harikeśa: Just like this finger. Its position is to serve the body. Just like the stomach. Everyone may be jealous of the stomach and not want to feed the stomach, but if all the hands and the legs and the mouth went on strike not to feed the stomach...

Prabhupāda: This is the right answer.

Harikeśa: ...they would ultimately be destroyed.

Prabhupāda: This is right answer, that you cannot non-cooperate with the stomach. You must serve the stomach. Otherwise your position is very precarious. That is the answer. If the finger thinks that "I shall remain independent and be happy," that is not possible. The stomach must be supplied food, and then all the parts of the body, they'll be happy. That is the point. So you cannot non-cooperate with the stomach. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the central enjoyer. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. He is the center. Just like ordinarily this African state, if you do not satisfy the state or the president, then you cannot remain happy. Independently you cannot be happy. We require in every step sta... We have come to this park because state is cooperating. In the morning we shall come, and they have prepared it nicely. We are not going to the jungle. So if we actually want happiness, we must cooperate with the state. This is crude example. Similarly, if our ultimate aim is to become happy, then we must cooperate with Kṛṣṇa. This is obligatory. You cannot escape it. Then you'll be unhappy. This is the... Stomach. Pranopaharac ca yathendriyanam [SB 4.31.14]. Therefore the natural process is you pick up... A child even, he picks up some something, but he does not put anywhere---immediately in the mouth. Why he does not bring it in the ear? Why? The child immediately takes it. He does not know what is what. But the nature is that as soon as he captures something, even he does not know... Because his position is eating, he knows this much, sense gratification. Other senses are not yet developed. So the child, he knows taste with tongue and eats. That he knows. So immediately anything he captures, he brings to the mouth, naturally. He hasn't got to be educated.

So our position is like that. We, being part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, our natural tendency is to serve Kṛṣṇa. Natural tendency. It is not artificial. When you forget Kṛṣṇa, that is artificial. So our normal life means to love Kṛṣṇa, to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is our normal life. Without serving Kṛṣṇa our life is abnormal, madman's life. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says... When you forget Kṛṣṇa, He comes to preach the normal life. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. This is normal life. So Kṛṣṇa does not require your help. He can create many helpers. But for your good Kṛṣṇa comes, that "If you want normal, happy life, then surrender unto Me." This is the proposal. Therefore the whole Bhagavad-gītā, all Vedic knowledge, is there. We have forgotten our position. Our posit..., normal position, is to love and serve Kṛṣṇa. Therefore,

anādi bahir mukha jīva kṛṣṇa bhuli gela
ataeva kṛṣṇa veda purāṇa karila

Because we do not know... From time immemorial we cannot ascertain when these incidents have happened, to forget Kṛṣṇa, but it is practically... Life after life, life after life, we are changing body, but forgetting Kṛṣṇa.

So here, in the human form of life, there is the opportunity to revive our original position, and we require the help of knowledge, perfect knowledge. And that is there in the Vedas. Ataeva kṛṣṇa veda purāṇa. If we don't take advantage, although we have got... We can read Bhagavad-gītā, and if we don't take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and go on whimsically, then we'll suffer. You cannot non-cooperate with Kṛṣṇa as you cannot non-cooperate with the stomach. This is the... You must. There is no question of alternative. You may, may not know. It is not... You must. This is the position. Otherwise you'll never be happy. And happiness is your aim of life. Atyantika-duḥkha-nivṛttiḥ. We are... I'm suffering from this knee's trouble because I am in this material world. I have got this material body. So atyantika-duḥkha-nivṛttiḥ means no more material world, no more material body. And for that purpose we have to cooperate with Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise it is not possible. Any question about this? Just like these African women = they are going to work. There is no question of no work. They must, otherwise they cannot eat. Anyone, if by working his livelihood is going on, how he can non-cooperate? This is not possible.

Brahmānanda: The thief is also eating.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's grace, just like the government gives the prisoners also to eat. But they are condemned. And government's grace that government provides all necessities. If a prisoner is sick, he is given the hospital facility. But he is restricted free movement, that much. Otherwise government gives the same facilities within the prison house and without the... The standard may be little different. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kamān [Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13]. He satis... Why this human being prisoner? Even He is giving food to the animals, to the birds, beasts, everyone. Non-cooperation cannot be. Kṛṣṇa says, bijo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg. 7.10]. Now, you have to grow trees, plants and vegetables for your eating. So that you cannot have without cooperation with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa gives all the seeds. Bijo 'ham. You cannot manufacture the seed. He gives the seed, you work little, sow it and get the result. But without cooperation with Kṛṣṇa, how can you get the seed? Then where is your food? No food. You must take... "God, give us our daily bread." Kṛṣṇa gives the seeds, and you sow it and get the fruit or grains. Then you can exist. Even if you are animal-eater, the animal must also come from Kṛṣṇa. You cannot manufacture the animal. That is also coming from Kṛṣṇa. Bijo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg. 7.10]. The animal is produced by father and mother, but the seed is given in the semina by Kṛṣṇa. And then animal is produced. So how you can non-cooperate Kṛṣṇa? You have to cooperate. Otherwise... [man yelling in background] What is that? [laughter] Huh? They are criticizing us? No.

Brahmānanda: What is he saying?

Devotee (1): He's imitating the birds.

Brahmānanda: Oh, he's imitating the birds.

Prabhupāda: Oh. [laughter] Just like this tendency was exhibited by Kṛṣṇa. In the forest the two brothers and other cowherds boys, they were also imitating. They were flying. The bird is flying; they were also flying like this. And the coming to the monkey, coming to the peacock and imitating the..., like this. These are description in the Kṛṣṇa book.

Brahmānanda: But his imitating the bird means he will become a bird?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Brahmānanda: This man's imitating the bird means that he will become a bird.

Prabhupāda: Not necess... This is sporting. It will be decided what he is thinking at the time of death. That will become prominent.

Brahmānanda: Is it by chance what you think of at the time of death, or is...

Prabhupāda: No.

Brahmānanda: ...it dependent?

Prabhupāda: It is dependent. Just like all of a sudden some idea come to us. That means we had contact with such idea. It is compared with... Just like there is a big pond. All of a sudden you see from within a bubble comes "phut!" There is no reason, but it comes. That means the thing is there within the pond, the situation. All of a sudden, without any time, it comes. They put this chance theory like this. But this is not chance. If... Because we are changing our life, so everything is recorded in the mind, Dictaphone. So sometimes some idea which I had contact with many, many years ago, it comes. It comes. It is not chance. I had contact with such thing. All of a sudden, that idea comes. [hums] [pause] We shall go now.

Brahmānanda: We should leave now.

Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...I am in the car, they offer me.

Woman: Oh, all African, small boys, all Africans.

Prabhupāda: They understand this is good.

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I understand Kṛṣṇa is the Personality of Godhead, and He is the one who create this material world. So my impression is but Kṛṣṇa, He didn't make this material world to be spiritual?

Prabhupāda: It is spiritual as soon as you become a devotee, spiritual. We are living in the spiritual world. That I explained last night. So ultimately there is nothing material. Material means when you forget Kṛṣṇa. That is material.

Devotee (1): But my question, Prabhupāda, was...

Prabhupāda: There is no material. When you forget Kṛṣṇa, that is material. Just like madness. Madness is not our natural position, but when your brain is deranged, then it is madness. Madness has no separate existence, but when our brain is not in order, there is madness. Similarly, there is nothing material, because everything has come from Kṛṣṇa. The original source is Kṛṣṇa. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. So the material world, the so-called material world, has come from Kṛṣṇa. So if it has come from Kṛṣṇa, how it is material? The cause and effect is the same, maybe differently manifested. Just like cotton, cotton made into thread, the shape has changed, but it is cotton. And from the cotton thread, you make cloth. The cloth is cotton. But if I say, "Cotton. Bring cotton," then you'll bring cotton, not this cloth. But the cloth is also cotton. Now understand? Cloth is nothing but cotton. But when I say, "Bring cotton," you'll not bring a cloth; you'll bring cotton.

So the Kṛṣṇa is the sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1], cause of all effects. So all the effects are Kṛṣṇa, but you have no such realization. When you understand that this place is Kṛṣṇa's place, so you can worship Kṛṣṇa, glorify Kṛṣṇa. But if you don't realize that it is Kṛṣṇa's, then you talk nonsense, madman = "This is American property," "It is African property," "It is this," "It is that," so many madness. But the śāstra says, iśavāsyam idam, everything Kṛṣṇa's. And the materialists, they'll pro... "No. Why everything? It is my country. It is my place." That is material. Similarly, anything coming from Kṛṣṇa---Kṛṣṇa is supreme spirit---it is spiritual. The devotees, they understand that "This fruit has come from Kṛṣṇa. The flower has come from Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it must be offered to Kṛṣṇa. It is for His." Otherwise how the fruit becomes spiritual? We take prasādam. How it becomes..., the same fruit? No. Because the Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there, it is spiritual. It is spiritual, but it was not known. When one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he understands that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Hari-sambhandhi-vastūnaḥ [Brs. 1.2.256]. Everything has got relationship with Kṛṣṇa. That's the fact.

So if anything has got relationship with Kṛṣṇa, so that is not material. We are going to a house, but it is said "temple." Why? Because there is relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise where is the difference between the next house and our house? So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means that everything is spiritual, but we do not accept it. We accepted something else. That is material.

Devotee (1): From all scriptures you instructed us in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the First Canto, Part One, that we should not jump from book to book. But I am so much attached to them that I read every book. Would that stop me to understand the philosophy?

Prabhupāda: Yes. By reading, you'll understand. Hmm? What is that?

Brahmānanda: He's asking that it states in Part One of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that one should not jump to the Tenth Canto without having read all the previous.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes. Knowledge has got step. You are learning A-B-C-D. How you can go to higher studies?

Brahmānanda: But the prabhu is feeling that he likes to read all of your books, and sometimes he reads one book and sometimes another book. Is that bad?

Prabhupāda: No, that is not bad, but better go by step by step.

Devotees: Jaya. Haribol. [offer obeisances] [end]