Morning Walk , Johannesburg , 1975-10-20

Prabhupāda: They kept dead body frozen?

Harikeśa: It hasn't become very popular.

Prabhupāda: Why? Why? The scientists' failure?

Harikeśa: Maybe people don't believe it.

Prabhupāda: No, it is made by the scientists. [break]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...behind the frozen body was that if someone had an incurable disease, they thought that they could suspend the life by freezing it, and then, when they found the cure for the disease, they would unfreeze him, or thaw him out, and cure him of his disease so that he could live again.

Prabhupāda: And these childish activities are taken as scientific advancement.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is there a Vedic definition of science?

Prabhupāda: Vijñāna. Jñāna-vijñāna. [break] ...not this science, experimental. That is not science. Vedic knowledge is science.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So there is no experimental science in Vedic culture.

Prabhupāda: Experimental science is condemned. What you will make, ex... You are imperfect. What is the value of your experiment? Therefore it is rejected. Whatever you'll do, that is imperfect. First of all you become perfect; then you make experiment. But you are... You remain imperfect, and you making experiment, what is the value of it? [break] ...is no experimental knowledge. All established truth. That is vijñāna, or science.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Established truth.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The sun rises on the eastern side; that is established truth. You cannot change it. And that is vijñāna. Man dies. This is established truth. You cannot make any change by experimental knowledge. This is vijñāna. Nṛpa nirnita: "It is already settled." In the Vedic knowledge there is no such thing as laboratory or experiment, discovery---nothing.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People blindly would accept that cow dung was purified without having to test it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But you make experiment, you will find it all right. So we save time. [break] ...no experiment. [break] ...experiment has become successful? Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, they've cured certain diseases by experimentation.

Prabhupāda: That is success? You stop disease. What is this, "cure disease"? Malaria, if it is not here, it is somewhere there. And if I am not suffering from malaria, I am suffering from syphilis. So what is this cure, experiment? Disease must be there. So you stop it. Then it is successful.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So it is not possible to stop disease.

Prabhupāda: No. How it is possible?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is it worthwhile to try to prolong life?

Prabhupāda: It is also condemned. Prolonged life... Suppose you live hundred years and a tree lives five thousand years, ten thousand years. Then what is the use of prolonging life, life like this? Is that very good life?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Standing in one place for ten thousand years? Why should you prolong your life? For suffering? You are suffering, that is your problem, so what is the use of prolonging your life? This is foolishness. What do you gain by prolonging life if you are suffering? Stop suffering. That is wanted. How you can stop suffering? Hmm? With suffering, prolonging life, what is the benefit?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just means more..., longer suffering.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And even if you prolong life, how long you'll prolong? There are trees, they are thousand times prolonging than your life. In... What is called? San Francisco, the Golden...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Redwood trees.

Prabhupāda: Redwood trees. One redwood, seven thousand years old, they told me. So what is the benefit, seven thousand years standing in one place, very long? Hmm? What is the benefit? You are trying to prolong life. Very good idea. But what is the use of prolonging life while suffering? One side, you are trying to prolong life; the other side, for acute suffering one is committing suicide. So why this contradictory proposal?

Harikeśa: Well, only some people commit suicide. As far as I'm concerned, I'm very happy. I have my car, my air conditioner...

Prabhupāda: That means you are fool number one. That means you are fool number one. As soon as you say, "I am happy," it is immediately proved that you are a rascal, fool number one.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But everyone is afraid of death. They don't like the idea of dying. Put it off.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore you cure that first of all; then prolong life that there will be no death. Then your prolong life is..., make some understanding. Can go this side?

Harikeśa: So it's not possible that anyone's happy? There is no possibility of anyone being happy.

Prabhupāda: No. One who thinks he is happy, he is number one fool.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everyone is searching after material happiness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But there is no happiness.

Harikeśa: What about if one is in the mode of goodness? Maybe one or two...

Prabhupāda: Mode of goodness... If he thinks that he is happy, then he is fool. The mode of goodness means one must know that we cannot be happy here. That is mode of goodness. And if he thinks, "I am happy," then he is not in mode of goodness; he's in darkness.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So everyone at present is trying to become happy by this or that activity.

Prabhupāda: They are fools, rascals.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So if everyone accepts that there is no happiness at all to be found in this world...

Prabhupāda: Then they are intelligent.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Then what to do?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Tad-vijñānārtham... Therefore you go to guru. Go to Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee (1): Do I have to join your movement to be happy? Can I just take Kṛṣṇa consciousness outside your movement?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (1): So there is no possibility of me being Kṛṣṇa conscious outside your movement.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness can be developed with devotees. Alone it is difficult.

Devotee (1): If I start my own community outside the movement?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The community means many devotees.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So you were saying, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that if there is no happiness, and one recognizes it, then he goes to guru.

Prabhupāda: Then he must... Just like Arjuna submitted to Kṛṣṇa because he was disturbed. So that is the point where one must approach a guru, how to become happy. That is intelligence. Athāto brahma jijñāsā: "Now inquire about real happiness."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So one who is looking for material happiness...

Prabhupāda: He's a fool.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...it is very difficult for them to approach guru.

Prabhupāda: He is a fool, rascal, blind. Where there is happiness not possible, he is trying to find out happiness. Therefore he is a fool. Which is not possible, if one tries for it, then he is fool.

Harikeśa: But I look around and I see everybody else enjoying.

Prabhupāda: Because you are fool, you are seeing like that. That is the proof that you are a fool.

Harikeśa: They all tell me what a great time...

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15], and you are finding out happiness. Then how much fool you are. The best authority says that this is a place of suffering, and you are finding out happiness. So how much fool you are, it is very difficult to estimate even. [laughter] Therefore Vedic knowledge is perfect. Now just like there is signboard, "No admission." So who is the fool, create some trouble by entering into it? He's a fool. If there is signboard, "There is no admission," and if somebody enters to create some trouble, he is not a fool? So Kṛṣṇa says, "There is no happiness," and if somebody searches happiness, he is not a fool? That is... Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness required, that he gets perfect knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. He has no trouble. Kṛṣṇa said, "There is no happiness," and if somebody thinks, "All right, although Kṛṣṇa said, let me try for it," then he is a fool.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Similarly, they say that they can cure disease, but it's impossible.

Prabhupāda: How it is possible? The disease is suffering, and this place is suffering, so where is the question of curing disease? Kṛṣṇa consciousness means intelligence. We are guided by Kṛṣṇa, so there is no trouble. Everything is all right. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. And as soon as you make experiment like fools and rascal, then you are doomed.

Harikeśa: "Well, my guru, Meher Baba, tells me, 'Don't worry. Be happy.' "

Prabhupāda: Then he is another fool, another rascal, mūḍha.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He didn't even speak. He didn't speak for so many years.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This Meher Baba.

Prabhupāda: Oh, he was your guru? [laughs]

Harikeśa: He says, "Don't worry, be happy, and just love me."

Prabhupāda: Just see. And he died of motor accident.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He died in motor accident?

Harikeśa: Yes. He was killed by a car.

Prabhupāda: "Don't worry, I am going to die by motor accident. Don't worry. Don't worry. I am going to die by motor accident." All these rasals, they have misled the whole world. What is this raised ground?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is where they hit the golf ball from, raised up. This is the men's teeing part. And the ladies' teeing part, they tee off from here, little bit shorter.

Prabhupāda: No equal right.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No equal rights.

Harikeśa: Well, all the svāmīs are saying that all you have to do is just be happy. It's just a state of being. You just have to think happiness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we also say, but you must know how to get happiness. That is required. Happiness is the aim of everyone. But how to get happiness permanent, that is knowledge.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is a devotee seeking mental happiness as well? Is the devotee searching after...

Prabhupāda: A devotee does not seek anything except service of Kṛṣṇa. He does not seek anything separately. He simply wants to serve Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Anyābhilāṣita śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. Making zero all other desires, that, he is devotee. If he is going to Kṛṣṇa for some happiness, he is not a devotee. [break]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...Vedic culture, there is descriptions of many demigods, and the karmīs, they would generally worship these different demigods for material benefits. Why didn't they just try to get the material benefits without worshiping the demigods, like they are doing today?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Today people, they are making money and trying to enjoy material life...

Prabhupāda: Who is making money? Who is making money?

Harikeśa: The government. It is printing it up.

Prabhupāda: Do you think everyone is making money?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So it's a big illusion? It's a big illusion?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone simply working hard like asses, that's all. This is their happiness. Just like the hog, he's working very hard to eat stool, and he is thinking happy. He is getting fatty. Do you think to work hard day and night and eat stool is happiness?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: But he is thinking; therefore he is getting fat. You generally find the pigs are fatty, because they think, "Oh, I am very happy." Yes. One man gets fatty when he thinks that "I am very happy." You know that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: This is psychology. When he thinks, "I am very happy," he gets fatty.

Harikeśa: But if I think I'm happy, isn't that enough?

Prabhupāda: They think. That is another thing. But you do not know what is happiness. These rascals, they do not think that what is happiness. Suppose I have arranged for so-called happiness. Then I am going to die also. Who will enjoy this?

Harikeśa: But I'm not worried about it.

Prabhupāda: That is the proof that you are a rascal. "Fools rush in where angels dare not." That is the proof. The hog is thinking, "I am very happy." Therefore he is hog. He is not a human being. Hog proves that he is hog by thinking that "I am very happy. I am getting fatty." [break]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...suffer. Kṛṣṇa says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. That's a fact. So why is it that people are thinking they are happy?

Prabhupāda: That I have repeatedly said. Therefore, because they are thinking like that, therefore they are rascals. That is the proof. There is no happiness; still, he is thinking, "I am happy." That is the proof that he's a rascal. [break]

Harikeśa: Well, we can admit that we're not happy all the time, but what is the meaning of happiness without distress? If there's no distress, how can I be happy?

Prabhupāda: So that is material knowledge. In order to taste happiness you have to suffer. That is material happiness. And happiness, pure, is spiritual happiness. Here, in order to enjoy happiness, you have to suffer; then you can taste. Therefore that is not real happiness. [break]

Harikeśa: A sand trap. This is where the ball goes in and it's very difficult to hit it out of there.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Harikeśa: So you're not supposed to hit it in there.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Harikeśa: It makes it more difficult.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes they hit a golf ball, Śrīla Prabhupāda, two hundred yards, and it goes into the hole.

Prabhupāda: The same thing. In order to feel the happiness of playing, he has to go in this way. It is unhappiness.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Such standard of religion the Western countries are not used to.

Prabhupāda: Where is religion in Western countries? There is no religion. All bogus thing. Religion means to surrender to God. Then where is God, and whom to surrender? They surrender to senses, that's all. So unless there is God, what is the meaning of religion? That is not religion. They have created something, civilized human society. There must be some religion. Just like aristocracy means he must have a good dog, that's all. There is no religion in the world except Kṛṣṇa consciousness. All bogus.

Harikeśa: What is the Pope doing, then? [laughter]

Prabhupāda: He's another big bogus man. The Pope's assistant died in the prostitute's house.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In Paris.

Harikeśa: The Pope comes out on his balcony, and thousands of people cheer and scream.

Prabhupāda: The same thing, that small animals praising the big animals, that's all. At least they say something about God. They are not zero. But they have no clear conception of God.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But everyone is thinking that their religion is the best. Even the Christian may be ignorant, even the Jew may be ignorant, anyone---doesn't matter---they're thinking that theirs is the best.

Prabhupāda: That is the proof that everyone is fool. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. First of all... Therefore we have to understand from Bhāgavata that what is real religion. Real religion means love of Godhead. So instead of love of Godhead, the love of doghead is increasing. So where is religion? Everybody should keep a dog and serve him, and where is God?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, they think that God is in the other world, so that in this world we can serve our wife and family, and when we go to the other world we'll serve God.

Prabhupāda: Then God is separated from this world. How much imperfect knowledge it is. God has created this world, and He has nothing to do with it. Just see. They say God created this world, but He has nothing to do with it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a very imperfect understanding. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...how long you were with Meher Baba?

Harikeśa: No, I was never with Meher Baba. [laughter] I just bring up all these points just so you can defeat them. I was with Maharishi.

Prabhupāda: Maharishi?

Harikeśa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Oh. You got his mantra? How much you paid for that?

Harikeśa: Thirty-five dollars. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: And what was the mantra?

Harikeśa: "Aing."

Prabhupāda: "Aing"? That's all?

Harikeśa: That's all. And they told me, "Never tell anybody else, 'cause if you tell somebody else, the whole thing is ruined."

Prabhupāda: Oh, you are also ruined? No. He is also ruined? No?

Harikeśa: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Everything ruined means he also ruined.

Harikeśa: For you.

Prabhupāda: No. Yes, that Maharishi Baba. Because he gave the mantra, so if you disclose it, everything is ruined including himself. He is also ruined.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He can't sell any more mantras.

Harikeśa: When I joined the movement I met many other devotees who also had mantras. So I said, "What were your mantras?" They were telling us we all had different mantras. And everybody had the same mantras. It was the same thing. Everyone had the same thing.

Prabhupāda: Just see how he was cheating you.

Indian man (2): I purchased mine.

Prabhupāda: This is such a great cheater, and he has opened university? Just see.

Harikeśa: I used to ask, "What is the goal of all this?" And they would always say, "You can't ask that now. You won't understand. In the future we'll tell you."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "After we have your money."

Harikeśa: They keep it very mystical, so that you keep thinking in the future you'll get something.

Prabhupāda: The same as the scientists. Same.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Actually, Prabhupāda, by your mercy we've been able to see that the whole world is simply cheaters and cheated.

Prabhupāda: That's all. [break]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Eucalyptus trees?

Prabhupāda: This is eucalyptus.

Harikeśa: Not like in San Francisco, though, Los Angeles. Once they gave the Maharishi four big pills of LSD.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Harikeśa: His disciples gave him, Maharishi, four big pills of LSD.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Maharishi?

Harikeśa: Yes. And he just stood there and said nothing happened. So everybody said, "This is proof that he's already there."

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Harikeśa: Because he just stood there and said, "Nothing is happening to me," everybody has figured that he is already there.

Prabhupāda: "There" means where?

Harikeśa: At the ultimate.

Prabhupāda: Hell. [laughter]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hell. Yes. [break]

[in car] ...that anyone who is thinking that they're happy is simply a rascal. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...saying the black man is not allowed to marry a white woman?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, no. Neither vice versa also. There is no intermarriage permitted here. [end]