Morning Walk , Johannesburg , 1975-10-18

[in car]

Prabhupāda: ...here poor people have to stand in queue. It is a mostly powder [break].

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They use this argument against us, that the Vedic culture was most solidly founded in India.

Prabhupāda: But you have to, I mean to say, curb down this rascal civilization. They could not take the Western civilization, and they lost their own civilization. This is India's bad luck. The Britishers did not teach them how to take up the Western culture, but they killed the Eastern culture. You understand?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You have no position. You cannot take the Western culture properly, and you have lost your own culture. This is India's bad luck. They never taught Indians how to become actually Westernized. No. They were not giving them sufficient education. They were very much against higher education in the beginning. They wanted some clerks to conduct their activities, mercantile and government, some third-class, fourth-class men. Educated means A-B-C-D, that's all. "They may know A-B-C-D and take fifty, sixty rupees' salary, and go home outside the town and come in daily passenger train, and work hard here and simply get your money so that you can maintain yourself." Nothing more. No education, no money, no industry. They were not taught properly. Here I see the factories, and the arrangement is so nice. But Indian factories go---it is hell. Hell, simply hell. The Britishers exploited the Indians, and the capitalist class of India, they have learned how to exploit only.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Exploit their own people.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Formerly the Manchester people were exploiting Indians. Now the Ahmedabad people, they have learned how to exploit. That's all. And government is satisfied, because they pay tax. "Never mind the workers may suffer, go on suffering." This is going on. And they have lost their own culture, and they have been taught how to drink, how to eat meat. This is...

[break] [on walk]

...fact is that the Indians cannot work so hard as the Western people can work. The climate does not allow. India's climate is good for peaceful living, less work, and brain engaged in spiritual advancement. That is India's gift. They are not meant for hard work. Hard work is not required for anyone. This is animal civilization, to work very hard. Then what is the difference between animal and man? A man has to work so hard like animals, then what is the difference? Here in the Western countries their climate is also suitable, and they are taught to work very hard like animals. And they do that. Therefore materially they become so-called prosperous for committing suicide. Is it not?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is true.

Prabhupāda: And materially advanced for committing suicide. Am I right or wrong?

Devotee (1): Right, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You said in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that if one wants to increase the material standard of living, then they should increase also sex life. And this is what they are doing in India today.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Without sex life one cannot be materially enthusiastic. And if you stop sex life, then you become spiritually advanced. This is the secret. If you stop sex life, then you become spiritually advanced, and if you indulge in sex life, then you will be materially enthusiastic. That is the difference between Western and Eastern culture. The whole Eastern culture is based on how to stop sex life, and here in the Western countries, how to increase sex life. They are eating meat, eggs, drinking wine. These things will enthuse sex life. And as soon as you get very satisfactory sex life, you become enthused to work hard. Therefore karmīs, marriage is necessary, because without sex life they cannot work. And for jñānīs, yogīs, bhaktas, sex life prohibited. Actually they do not know the science of life, this Western civilization. Their life means this body. Their life means this body. That means they do not know what is life. And as soon as the life is gone, the body is there---they cannot explain. This is their ignorance. Why the life is stopped? And they are very proud of advancement. And bring in life again. That they cannot do. That means the whole basic principle is ignorance. Mūḍha nābhijānāti. Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ [Bg. 9.12]. Eh? Then?

Harikeśa: Rākṣasīm āsurīṁ caivam.

Prabhupāda: Ah, rākṣasīm āsurīṁ caiva prakṛtiṁ mohinīṁ aśritāḥ. Prakṛtiṁ mohinīṁ aśritāḥ. Because they have taken the shelter of prakṛti, material nature, bewildered and captivated, they do not know what is the aim of life---moghāśā, "all baffled." Mogha karmāṇam: "Whatever they are doing, that will be useless." Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā: there is no knowledge. There is no knowledge. Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So with their advancement of knowledge...

Prabhupāda: What is the advancement of knowledge?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are increasing sex life, and actually the advancement of knowledge should be decreasing sex life.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They do not know what is knowledge. The knowledge means sex life. Sex life. That is their knowledge. Advancement of knowledge means how to enjoy sex life, how to take shelter of abortion, child-killing, and then contraceptive method---whole thing on the basis of sex life. That's all. They do not know except these things. They know there is botheration after sex life, but they cannot give it up. Therefore all these arrangements = take contraceptive, kill child, and what... That means the whole thing is based on sex life. That's all. Yan maithunādi gṛhamedhi sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. Is that pleasure? They think it is pleasure to unite the urinals. [laughter] And this is pleasure, a standard of pleasure most third class, fourth class. Yan maithunādi gṛhamedhi sukhaṁ tuccham: very abominable. Tuccham, the śāstra says, "most abominable." And they take it pleasure, and they make arrangement for this. When the dog enjoys sex life... Therefore they are allowed to do it on the street. People can see it. Is that very nice scene?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: The same thing is done by the human being, and they are taking, "This is all, everything." This is basic principle of their happiness. That's all. Mohinī, mohinī. This is captivation. And nature has made the woman's face so attractive, beautiful, their breast, their hips attractive, their sound, talking, singing, all very attractive, walking. And now they are dressing naked; they are showing simply the vagina, all other parts of the body clothed. This is going on. Whole thing is based on sex life, and that is tuccham, most abominable. Prakṛtiṁ mohinīṁ śritāḥ. It will take three hundred times births to understand that this sex life is abominable. Therefore it is bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. Not that immediately, simply by hearing our Bhagavad-gītā lecture, they will give it up. It will take many, many births to understand. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante.

In the Vedic system, sex life is allowed only for begetting children. Therefore they are... Restriction. Allowed, but with great restriction under religious rules and regulation and so many things, garbhādāna. Then the first principle is, even it is taken for begetting child, it is not secret. Garbhādāna-saṁskāra. There should be a function, all the brāhmaṇas and relatives should come, and there will be ceremony, and everyone will know that "This man is going to now sex, have sex for begetting children." This is ceremony---not secretly, like cats and dogs. Cats and dogs also, they do not do secretly. A human being do it secretly and do not want the botheration. Therefore their scientific advancement means how to kill the child, how to make abortion, how to take contraceptive pills, how to distribute them, how allow the children, "Yes, you go on, but take these pills so that you may not be bothered." Yes. Why not stop it, botheration? That you cannot, because animals. Because animal civilization, they cannot do it. Kaṇḍutive manivasi viṣaheta dhīraḥ. Why don't you teach them to become dhīraḥ, sober---"Let me tolerate this itching sensation"---brahmacārī? That teaching is not good. You do it repeatedly, suffer, and suffer consequences. And to stop it they suffer in so many ways, suffering, suffering.

Bahu-duḥkha bhajaḥ [SB 7.9.45]. Sex life, illicit or legal, the after-effect is suffering. Even it is not illicit---it is legal---then to take care of the wife or the children, for their education, for their upliftment and so on, so on, so on---suffering. And if it is illicit, then these sufferings = you commit sinful activities, kill the child, contraceptive, with the abortion, go to the doctor, pay, and so on, so on. So where is no suffering? Either legal or illicit, you have to suffer. Bahu-duḥkha bhajaḥ. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpana bahu-duḥkha bhajaḥ. These rascals, once they have done, "That's all right. You have got one child. Just take care of." "No, again, again." Once you have committed sinful activities, killing the child in the womb, "All right, stop it now." "No, again." Tṛpyanti neha kṛpana. He's never satisfied. He knows that there is suffering behind this. Still, he'll not stop it.

Therefore a sober man... A man should be educated to become sober, that "Let me tolerate this itching, that's all. I save so much trouble." This is knowledge. To become rascal and more rascal, more rascal and suffer, is that civilization? Simply to make the people rascal and suffer and commit suicide? Just tell them that he has created this civilization that suffer and become rascal. That's all. Unless you become rascal, how you will suffer? So keep them rascal and suffer. This is nature's arrangement, that "You living entity, you have forgotten Kṛṣṇa. All right, come under my control. Be rascal, remain rascal and suffer." Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā [Bg. 7.14]. Why she is doing that? "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise you will go on suffering like this." This is the nature's way. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi [Bg. 3.27]. But the rascal... Because he is rascal, he does not know that "I am under the full control of prakṛti, material nature, and her business is to keep me rascal and suffer." And they are advanced in education.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they will say that this so-called suffering is actually pleasure.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Go on pleasure. Who checks you? Enjoy this pleasure. If everything is pleasure, then why you take the counteractive process? Why do you want to kill child? Pleasure? Why do you take contraceptive method if it is pleasure? That is the proof how much rascal they are. Mūḍha nābhijānāti. Try to understand why Kṛṣṇa has spoken so many times, "mūḍhas, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā." Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, is speaking like that. There must be some meaning. Human civilization means to give relief to the human being, comfortable life, not to repeat the same business like the animals. That is human civilization.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We see practically that only the devotees are somewhat free from anxiety.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. We have little anxieties simply because we have to deal with this rascal world. Otherwise we have no anxiety. But we have taken this mission, to go and approach them, tell them the truth. Therefore we have got little anxiety. Otherwise there is no question of anxiety. Because we are mixing with these rascals---and we have to do that, who have taken this mission---therefore little anxiety there. That is also not very much. But you must know, the whole world is full of rascals and fools. That is not exaggeration. Eh? Or you have got different opinion?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? What do you think? Do you agree?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are mūḍhas.

Prabhupāda: [laughs] Our verdict is final = "All rascals and fools." Therefore, when I ask these rascals, "Any question?" stopped. [laughter] "Come on, any question?" What they will question? I challenge them, "Any question?" They know that "We have been proved as rascals." Yesterday, last night, I told that the aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś [Bg. 2.11] = "This is the position of everyone. Everyone is fool, rascal. He does not know what is the real problem of life." Nobody said that "Why you are calling everyone rascals?" In Montreal some Bengali gentleman said, "Swāmījī, you are using very strong word, 'fools and rascals.' Can it be explained otherwise?" And "No, this is the only word, that you are all rascals and fools. This is the only word to be used." [laughter]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You once said that anyone who has a material body is a rascal.

Prabhupāda: A rascal, that's all. And they are trying to maintain this body, although the rascals know it will not be maintained. You cannot. You are not allowed to maintain, neither you'll be allowed. Still, they are trying. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. Which is impossible, cannot be allowed, and they are trying for it, how this body can be maintained. "Yes, we are trying. Now the disease has been reduced. Now they are living more days." These are their foolish... They will never say, "No, it is impossible." Still, they will support their rascal endeavors. [aside:] No, that's all right.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That is another sign of their rascaldom, that they don't accept that all of their endeavors to maintain the body will be defeated.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are seeing, experiencing. History never says that any man has become immortal, even Hiraṇyakaśipu, and what to speak of these small demons. A great demon like Hiraṇyakaśipu, he could not, and what to speak of these tiny demons? One kick is sufficient to kill them.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They never say that. [pause]

Prabhupāda: The European lady will never take a burden on head like this, but Indians, they do. Even respectable family woman, they also carry on the head. You will find many Gujarati. Simple living is natural.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How is it that the Europeans especially, they have become the vanguard of rascal culture?

Prabhupāda: Because they are rākṣasas. They are eating meat and drinking wine and illicit sex. Rākṣasa civilization. Hiraṇyakaśipu means... Hiraṇya means gold, and kaśipu means soft bed. To learn, this is rākṣasa civilization. They are searching after soft bed and gold mine, hiraṇya.

Devotee (2): [people approach] We have some guests.

Indian man (3): Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Aiye. How do you know we have come here?

Indian (3): Well, Kṛṣṇa's grace showed me you were here.

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. That... Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [Hindi] If any question, we are discussing so many things.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Do you have any questions?

Indian (3): Don't come to mind at the moment. This... We've arrived from home, you know. We were at the temple, and Bhattasauri says, "Swāmījī has gone for a walk at the golf course," so it was quite convenient to find us here. We just rushed up. I said, "Let me rush in to join the walk."

Prabhupāda: [to Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa] So you can repeat what I have spoken. They can hear.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Kṛṣṇa, He describes so...

Prabhupāda: No, you can play this.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Okay, play back. Comes in handy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Eh? [Harikeśa plays back tape recording]

Prabhupāda: [on tape] "They are trying to maintain this body, although the rascals know it will not be maintained. You cannot..., you are not allowed to maintain, neither you'll be allowed. Still they are trying. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]."

Harikeśa: [aside:] The car is there.

Prabhupāda: No, we shall walk. [playing of tape continues] "It is impossible. It will not be allowed, and they are trying for it. How this body can be maintained? 'Yes, we are trying. Now the disease has been reduced. Now they are living more days.' These are their foolish... They will never say, 'No, it is impossible.' Still, they will support their rascal endeavors." [end of recording] Modern advancement of science, what actually they have done? Hmm? We are talking on that point. Simply misleading. The Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has sung one nice... [tape-recorded section accidentally plays = "eating meat and drinking wine." Prabhupāda and devotees laugh at interruption. Harikeśa apologizes.] That... He says, jada vidya saba māyāra vaibhava. Jada vidyā means material education, the so-called material science. So jada vidyā. Vidyā means education, so this expansion of knowledge means expansion of the influence of māyā. Jada vidyā saba māyāra vaibhava. And the result is tomāra bhajane bādhā. People will forget God. With the advancement of so-called material science or material knowledge, the result will be that people will forget God. And then next, next is anitya saṁsāre moha janamiya. "This material world, which is temporary, where we cannot stay, we are already captivated, but this advancement of material knowledge will make me more captive, and I shall work just like an ass." That's all.

Now, whether he is right or wrong, tell me. His charge is that advancement of material education is advancement of the influence of material energy. And if you say that "What is the wrong there?" the wrong is that we are already rascals, and this education will make me more rascal. Anitya saṁsāre moha janamiya: "I am already captivated in this temporary material world, and these things will make me more advanced to be captivated in this material world." Now this is the version of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Now, if you don't like, tell what is the reason. Hmm? Tell me. Material education... We are already captive under the laws of material nature, and the more we advance in material education, we'll be more and more rigidly captive. So this is the version of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. What is your answer? Can anyone refute Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, that he is wrong?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People may argue, though, that without education we can't even read the knowledge that Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura is speaking. How to read Bengali or Sanskrit or English or anything like this?

Prabhupāda: That is real education. We want that you learn from Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, you learn from Vyāsadeva, you learn from Nārada. But why you are learning from Freud, from Darwin and such rascals? Education means you should learn from a person who is authorized, who is without mistake, without illusion, who does not cheat, just like we are learning from Kṛṣṇa. That is education. And if you learn from rascals and fools, then what is that education? Education means to learn from the learned person. But if you are learning from a rascal and fool, then what is your education? Education required, but we require what is actually education, which is not cheating. But we are being educated, being cheated. We are working for this body, which I am not. Is that education, or it is cheating? If you say, "I am taking my interest," I'll say, "I am taking..., I wash daily my shirt and coat." And that, is that knowledge? And what about you? Your food? "I don't care for that. I wash my coat and shirt daily." Is that education? You keep yourself starving, and you keep your coat and shirt very cleanse. Is that education?

Indian man (3): That's not education.

Prabhupāda: This is going on. Therefore people are restless. He is hungry. What he will do, his cars and this shirt and coat and big building? Why they are committing suicide? Because he is not happy. There is no food for the spirit soul, what he is, actually. Is that education? That is not education. So Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura is right when he says, jība ke karaye gādha: "This material education means making people more and more asses." That's all. He is already ass because he's in this material world, and the so-called material education means keeping him in that condition more and more.

Indian (4): So after, when he leaves this body and when he takes rebirth again, Swāmījī, then he starts off all over again?

Prabhupāda: No, he starts... According to the body he will work. If he enters into the dog's body, he will work as a dog. If he enters in the body of a tree, he will work as the tree = stand up naked without any shame; you cannot protest, your branches will be cut off. So these things are there. What do they know about this science? Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. You have to take a different body. He does not say what kind of body. And you can see by practical experience. There are 8,400,000 different forms of body. You have to enter one of them. That's all. So what you can do? The nature will force you, "Enter this body." It may be a better body or it may be an abominable body, but you have to enter another body. Where is that education that "I'll have to enter another body after death, and let me prepare what kind of body I shall have"? Where is that education? They are blind.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to go back to the temple now, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Time is up? Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can walk if you like.

Prabhupāda: No, what time we have to go?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, we can have class at the temple.

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] You have got car?

Indians: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So you can come to the temple.

Indian man (5): Yes, we are coming.

Prabhupāda: This appears to be nim tree like, but it is not.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Should we take one branch?

Prabhupāda: No, no. [pause] How long you are all in South Africa?

Indian man (2): All were born here.

Prabhupāda: You were born, all of you?

Indian man (5): We're born in India.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā.

[in car]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The karmī and the jñānī are both within the material world. Is the jñānī considered more elevated than the karmī?

Prabhupāda: No, jñānī is on the margin between material and spiritual world. He is trying to understand what is spiritual world or spiritual life, what is material. That much.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So he is better off than the karmī.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Karmī has no knowledge what is the aim of life, but jñānī is understanding that "I have executed material activities so long, but I have not become happy. Then what is the reason?" That is jñānī. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. "What is real life?" But because they are not trained up as bhakta, they come to the conclusion of "The impersonal Brahman is the final." That is the defect. So anyway, they are better than the karmīs.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So the jñānīs are very rare, though, aren't they?

Prabhupāda: Eh? No, bhaktas are rare. [break] ...churches here?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is a school, convent school. There is one church here, another church across the street, a third over there and a fourth down the street from where we live. This church has a big food program, but they sell it. They don't distribute freely. They have about twelve vans. Congregational food. All these garages. They have vans, a big truck.

Prabhupāda: But they eat meat.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. They distribute meat, too.

Prabhupāda: Their program is for the poor? No.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Generally. I think it's mostly money-making. [end]