Morning Walk , Johannesburg , 1975-10-16

Prabhupāda: ...to these people that "Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you are trying to become happy by material adjustment. This will never be successful." So what is their answer?

Harikeśa: They might point out how successful they have been in the past.

Prabhupāda: What successful?

Harikeśa: Now we have these big, beautiful houses. If it's too hot we air-condition it.

Prabhupāda: You have to be... You will be kicked out from the house. You will not be allowed to stay here. What is this success? You will be kicked out. What is your success? You have constructed very nice house. Very good. All credit to you. But I shall kick you out. What you will do? Where is your success? Hmm? It is waste of time. That is sane man's intelligence = "If I am going to be kicked out, why shall I spoil my energy in this way?" This is intelligence. But they have no intelligence even.

Harikeśa: But that's just a fatalistic attitude.

Prabhupāda: Why fatalistic? It is practical. You want to live, you want to enjoy this nice house, but you are not allowed. Why don't you talk practically? That is your foolishness, that you will not be allowed---that's a fact---but still, you are spoiling your energy. That is foolishness.

Harikeśa: Well, it's not exactly spoiling. We are really enjoying.

Prabhupāda: What enjoying?

Harikeśa: When it's too hot we can make it cooler. When it's too cool we can make it hotter.

Prabhupāda: But at the same time, you want to live and enjoy. That is not allowed. Everyone wants to live and enjoy. Hmm? Otherwise why, when there is attack outside, why do you fight? The tendency is that "I shall live comfortably." Why these white Europeans have made so high plan? So that they may not be kicked out by the Africans. That is the tendency. Therefore they are making secure---Africans far away, so that they may not come. You want to live securely, but that is not there. You may make political arrangement very secure, but what is the nature's arrangement? You'll be kicked out at any moment. There is no certainty. There is no guarantee even that you will be allowed to live for so many years. At any moment.

Harikeśa: But if we're always thinking of death, how can we enjoy life now?

Prabhupāda: But death is sure. If you are not thinking, then you are a rascal. That is the point. [laughs] Death is sure. And if you are not thinking, then you are a rascal. That is the proof. Suppose I am sitting here, we are walking here, and some danger is coming. It will immediately kill. So shall I remain here very peacefully? [laughter] First of all make insurance, just like they make insurance, that no death will come. Your scientific advancement, your so many advancement, make it sure that you will not die; you will live here comfortably forever. Then you make your house nice, decorate it very... Where is that arrangement?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But if death is sure in any case... If death is sure in any case, for the thinking man or for the nonthinking man, then why think about it?

Prabhupāda: No, non... For thinking men, for them there is no death; there is Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference between thinking men and nonthinking men. We are preparing for going... [break] There is... Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama [Bg. 15.6]. That is intelligence. Now, suppose that here is open field. There is... We are walking very nicely. And the downtown, congested city, that is not very nice. So at least if I don't spoil my energy to make the place uncomfortable, if I save my energy and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa in this open field, that is intelligence or that is intelligent? Which is intelligent? We are also going to die. That's all right. But we are going to die like intelligent person, not like cats and dogs. That is the difference.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The argument is, though, that everyone has to work because they have to feed themselves and they have to...

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are working. We are not sitting idle. Now, for our food, if we just get some food by plowing some land for the animal, cows, and for me, and the cow is giving me milk, the tree are giving me fruit, why shall I work so hard? The business of dogs and hogs, whole day and night simply working for getting food and sense gratification? That is not civilization. Live peacefully, get your nice food and save time to advance in spiritual life. This is civilization. And simply for little comfort for a few years I have wasted my time in so many humbug comforts. Actually, that is... What is this comfort of the skyscraper building? I think it is a mechanical prison.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Matchbox, also.

Prabhupāda: Matchbox.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You said last night that without electricity it would be hell.

Prabhupāda: It is hell. And we are creating this hell.

Harikeśa: I don't know. I'm enjoying.

Prabhupāda: You are a rascal. That is the proof you are a rascal. [laughter]

Devotee (1): We need defense, so we have to work hard to keep defense, economy. The common man has to contribute to the state to keep its defense.

Prabhupāda: Defense, that means...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's today... Unless there is very complex society...

Devotee (1): Otherwise we will be exploited.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Unless there is a very complex...

Prabhupāda: Therefore we say change the society. Society means you and me. If we agree that this kind of civilization is wrong, then society, what does it mean? They have made the United Nation. What is that? For this purpose, that "Why we are fighting unnecessarily?" So make their settlement, how to live. What is the standard of civilization? What is the aim of life? What they are doing in the United Nation for the last thirty years? What they have done? They simply fighting, the same cats and dogs. What is the value?

Harikeśa: Whenever there is some war they send some observers.

Prabhupāda: That is cats and watchdog, that's all. Watchdog. [laughter] That's all, civilization of cats and dogs.

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, a 1975 Nobel Peace award was awarded to a leading scientist who helped the nuclear weapon, who created the H-bomb. Just recently it was awarded to him.

Harikeśa: Peace prize? [laughing]

Devotee (1): Yes. Nobel Peace Prize in Russia, Oslo.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, you are giving the real peace formula.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Unless they stop their sinful life, they have to suffer.

Prabhupāda: I am not giving; Kṛṣṇa is giving. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasam sarva-loka-maheśvaram, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg. 5.29]. There is.

[break] ...formula, if you want to make peaceful the dog society, is it possible?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: So similarly, they are keeping men as dogs, and they want peace. How it is possible? They are educating general mass of people like cats and dogs, and they want peace. How it is possible? Make them first of all sober men. Then there is question of peace. [break] ...God consciousness, there is no question of peace. [break] If we know that the Supreme Lord, God, is our father, and He has..., everything belongs to Him, His property, therefore, instead of fighting, let us enjoy father's property peacefully. Then there will be peace. We are peacefully walking in this park because we know that it is commonwealth, it is government's property. I can walk, and the dog can also walk. Then there will be peace. And if I think, "No, it is my property," and you think your property, then there will be fight between you and me. So where is peace? Why you claim South Africa as your property? You are foreigner. You want peace. You are expert in keeping them subdued, the Africans. Otherwise, lawfully, it is African property. Why you have taken? Either you make it God's property, otherwise make it African property. You have no right to come here. If you say God's property, then everyone has got equal right. So they do not know what is the meaning of peace.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If nothing is our property---in fact, everything is Kṛṣṇa's property---why is there this desire to possess so many things?

Prabhupāda: Possess..., you can possess. Tena tyaktena bhuñjithā [Īśo mantra 1]. The real proposal is that everything belongs to God. Then God's representative, king, he gives you land. But you require for ten men's foodstuff. You calculate the ten men's foodstuff, for producing you require so much land, so the king gives you land. You work and grow your food. And because it is God's property, you give some tax. Whatever you produce, twenty-five percent give to God or king, and balance you enjoy. If there is no production---no tax. This is peaceful life. You work. You take land, God's land. You cannot... Why you have occupied so much land? Others, they are not allowed to enter, where there is overpopulation. How you can expect peace? Just like in China and India and other places they're overpopulation. Why don't you allow them, that "In Africa there is no sufficient population. Please come and toil and grow your food and live peacefully"? Where is that formula? Rascals, they are wanting peace. All rascal, rogues. And why they have become rascals, rogues? For want of God consciousness. They do not know that it is God's property, falsely thinking, "My property." And today I am thinking, "My property," and next day I become a dog on the same property. Hmm? This dog loitering, who can say he was not formerly a Mr. Smut? Who can say? Maybe he was Smut; now he is dog. How can you take him? This is nature's process. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. After death you'll have to accept another body. Now who can guarantee that General Smut[s] did not accept a dog's body? Who can guarantee? Where is the science? You think that he is dead and gone, but Kṛṣṇa does not say like that. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Now what kind of body he has got? Where is the scientist to ascertain that "Mr..., General Smut[s] has got now this body. He is living here"? Where is the science? You simply see like a fool and rascal, "My father is gone." Where your father gone? Where did he live so long? Why did you not see him? Where is the science? He is simply crying like a child, "My father is gone." Where he has gone? Find him out. And what he was? Why did you not see so long? This is their knowledge.

Harikeśa: It seems unless there is some monarch who is ruling over the whole world, one personality...

Prabhupāda: No, not... Yes, whole world. He must be rājarṣi, just like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, representative of Kṛṣṇa. He can divide to small kings, "Now you look after such tract of land," and he divides. In this way there will be peace. No tax. If you are unable to produce anything, then no tax. Why should you levy tax from the poor man?

Harikeśa: What about those people who don't want to work, they are lazy?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Harikeśa: What about lazy people?

Prabhupāda: Let them become śūdra. Let them become servant. After all, unless he works, he cannot get his food. So let him become servant. He has to work to get food. No property. He should not be given any property. If you work, you can get food. Just like animal.

Harikeśa: How in the beginning is it decided that somebody is working and he should be given or not given?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Harikeśa: How in the beginning... Let's say you have a king...

Prabhupāda: Beginning Kṛṣṇa.

Harikeśa: No, no. Let's say you have a king, and he is deciding this person is worthy of...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Beginning, Kṛṣṇa. Why don't you read Bhagavad-gītā? You do not know?

Harikeśa: No, no. Yes.

Prabhupāda: What is the social arrangement? What is that?

Harikeśa: That Kṛṣṇa created the four orders.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So you make that four orders, and then society will be in order. But you are not taking Kṛṣṇa's advice. You are manufacturing your hellish ideas.

Harikeśa: No, I was just wondering how one would be able to see who was acting in a certain way unless they were first engaged in something. They have to be doing some activity...

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Harikeśa: ...so you can see what kind of quality they have.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Take everyone is rascal, then train them. That is wanted. Take everyone as rascal. There is no question that "Here is intelligent man, here is rascal, here is the..." No. First of all take them all rascals, and then train them. That is wanted. That is wanted now. At the present moment the whole world is full of rascals. Now, if they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, select amongst them. Just like I am training. You are brāhmaṇa by training. So one who is prepared to be trained as brāhmaṇa, classify him in the brāhmaṇa. One is trained up as kṣatriya, classify him. In this way, cātur-varṇyaṁ māyā sṛṣ... [Bg. 4.13].

Harikeśa: And that kṣatriya would engage everyone basically as śūdra and then pick from them.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Harikeśa: He would initially pick...

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. You pick up... You take the whole mass of people as śūdra. Then...

Harikeśa: Pick out.

Prabhupāda: Pick out. And rest, who is neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśya, then he is śūdra. That's all. Very easy thing. If you cannot be trained up as engineer, then you remain as a common man. There is no force. This is the way of organizing society. There is no force. Śūdra is also required.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Now the incentive in modern society to become educated or to become engineer is money. What is the incentive in Vedic culture?

Prabhupāda: There is no need of money. The brāhmaṇa teaches everything free of charge. There is no question of money. Anyone can take education as a brāhmaṇa or a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya. There is no... Vaiśya doesn't require any education. Kṣatriyas require little. Brāhmaṇa require. But that is free. Just find out a brāhmaṇa guru and he will give you free education. That's all. This is society. Now, as soon as... At the present moment, as soon as one wants to be educated, he requires money. But in the Vedic society there is no question of money. Education free.

Harikeśa: So the incentive is the happiness in society?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is everyone is hankering after = "Where is happiness?" This will be the happiness. When people will be peaceful, happy in their living condition, that will bring happiness, not by imagining that "If I have got a skyscraper building, I will be happy," and then jump over and commit suicide. That is going on. He is thinking that "If I have a skyscraper building, I will be happy," and when he is frustrated, he jumps down. That is going on. This is happiness. That means all rascals. They do not know what is happiness. Therefore everyone requires guidance from Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now you were saying that there is high rate of suicide here?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Why? This is the country possessing gold mine, and why they are...? And you said that it is difficult to become poor here.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You have to try hard to become poor man here.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And still there is suicide. Why? Every man is rich man, and why he is committing suicide? Hmm? Can you reply?

Devotee (1): They lack central happiness?

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no happiness. [pause] Nobody can remain lazy, because he will be hungry. So how he will remain lazy?

Devotee (1): Steal.

Prabhupāda: He'll have to go somewhere, begging food, and he'll say, "First of all work. Then get your food." He'll work. So there is no question of remaining lazy. Just like the hippies = they do not work, but when they do not get food from anywhere, they go and work. Is it not? So, he will be obliged to work.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That is the incentive, then.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (2): Some of them steal. Instead of working, they steal their food.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Steal... When he is arrested, then he has to work in the prison. That's all.

Harikeśa: Chopping rocks.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise whipping. In Bhagavad-gītā it is recommended that instead of keeping yourself lazy without working, better to steal. Better to steal.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How is that?

Prabhupāda: Huh? That is there. Stealing is bad work, bad work. It is also working, but bad work. So Kṛṣṇa recommends that instead of keeping yourself lazy, better do bad work.

Harikeśa: "Action is better than inaction."

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yes.

Harikeśa: A man cannot even keep his own body in shape.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So stealing is still better than keeping oneself lazy.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "It is better to perform one's duty, even though it may be imperfect, than to perform another's duty"?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. [laughter]

Harikeśa: I've always wondered... The food will be taken care of in a perfect varṇāśrama society. Government is taken care of...

Prabhupāda: Government means you, like rascal fools like you. So how you will take care?

Harikeśa: When it is properly set up.

Prabhupāda: First of all you see the government, what is government. Government means a pack of rascals and fools, that's all. This is modern government. All these thieves and rogues are voted to be government men. So how you expect good government? It is not possible. "People's government." All peoples are rascal. That means government rascal. People's government.

Harikeśa: How would the other necessities of life be taken care of, like medical things? If actually they have no knowledge, and they have to require to build these gigantic hospitals...

Prabhupāda: The brāhmaṇas, the brāhmaṇas will give you medical help. Āyur-Veda. They will read Āyur-Veda. They will give help.

Harikeśa: So the Āyur-Veda possibly can work nowadays.

Prabhupāda: Why not?

Harikeśa: Some people were telling me that the herbs had lost all their effectiveness in the Kali-yuga.

Prabhupāda: Then die. [laughter] Do you mean to say this modern medical treatment is guarantee for your living?

Harikeśa: No.

Prabhupāda: Then? That is also not guarantee. If you see the herbs and plants are no more effective, then if there is no guarantee, in your modern medical there is no guarantee. So why should you spend so much money? As soon as I go to a doctor, immediately twenty dollars. As soon as go to purchase some drugs, immediately twenty... If I have no money... And still that is not guarantee. So why shall I spend so much money?

Harikeśa: So actually this money doesn't even exist in Vedic society---money.

Prabhupāda: Money is not required. You require things. Just like instead of money, you are getting papers. Money means gold. Where is gold? You are cheated. Money means gold. So instead of possessing gold, you are possessing some paper, written there "hundred dollars." And you are such a fool, you are satisfied. You are being cheated. Bank's check and currency notes, you keep it in your..., "Oh, here is my money." Is that money? Just see.

Devotee (3): They only do that to make it easier for them, because they've got so much money that they can't carry it...

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but actually it is not money. You are befooled. You are such a fool that you accepted a piece of paper as money. Therefore I say you are rascal. That is my business. If I say, "Government, give me gold," and government has passed law, "No, you cannot possess gold," that means cheating. How I shall keep gold, that is my business. First of all you give me gold. It is due to me. But you are giving me paper. That means cheating is begun from you.

Harikeśa: How will the government decide what my gold is and what his gold is? How does the gold get distributed?

Prabhupāda: Gold coins. Formerly there was gold coins. We have seen in our childhood gold coins, silver coins. There was no paper.

Harikeśa: But you have to do something to get it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I will have to do something. That is another thing. But why you are cheating me? Instead of gold, you are giving me paper. Formerly... You have seen in Kṛṣṇa book that one fruit man came, and Kṛṣṇa was taking some grain. It was falling down. So that was the... A fruit man come, and you give him a packet of grain. Then whatever exchange is possible, the fruit man gives you fruit. That's all.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That is called bartering.

Prabhupāda: Bartering. So there is no need of money. Similarly, you go to another shop, you get. So you produce your food, and in exchange, in barter, you get all things, other things. Somebody is producing something, somebody is producing something. But it can be done. Suppose I am a blacksmith; you want some work from me. So you say that "I'll make this instrument" for me. So I say, "You give me one kg paddy." So you give me one kg, I prepare you, so your necessity is fulfilled. Now I have got so much paddy. Now, I may go to purchase something else because I am blacksmith, so grains will be used for my eating, and for, say for ghee, I take the same grain somewhere. So where is the money, need of?

Harikeśa: It's very difficult to cheat in that system. It's very difficult to cheat.

Prabhupāda: Cheat?

Harikeśa: In a system of bartering it's very hard to cheat.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no cheating. Everyone is simply simple, honest. And here the government begins cheating. He is engaging you to hard work day and night and paying you a piece of paper, where it is written "one hundred dollars." That's all. This is your society---cheating and cheater, that's all.

Harikeśa: People have a hard time understanding that point, because with a hundred dollar note you can buy things.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say you are all rascals. You do not know. If I say, the government may arrest me that I am infusing people in a different way. But that is the fact.

Harikeśa: So a government's duty would be to abolish this false standard of money, and then automatically...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Government's only duty is that government gives me land and I pay tax = "Whatever I produce, take one fourth." Finish, all taxes. If I don't produce, there is no tax. That's all. That is the business between the government and the public. That's all.

Harikeśa: If the public are giving, like, one quarter of a perishable item, what does the government do with that? Let's say they were growing some vegetables, so they give one quarter of that to the government. What would the government do with that? They've got so many tons of vegetables.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harikeśa: And everybody is taken care of, because they are growing it.

Prabhupāda: After all, vegetable will be eaten by somebody. So let government distribute there. Vegetable, grains, fruits, milk, ghee, yogurt, natural produce---they will be used by somebody. The government may store and distribute, those who are in need. That's all.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Maybe somebody is only producing gold or gold plates, or somebody is producing something that isn't food. So he would give that to the government.

Prabhupāda: Well, gold plates, that is not a necessary thing. He can eat on plantain leaf, natural production. That is luxury. So when people live simple life, the luxuries will no more be required.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Let's say the government is building some wells or some roads. They could feed the people who are doing that, śūdras who are doing that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Śūdras, that "You dig this well and take your food." That's all. Work will go on. At the present moment I require one scissor. I can go to the blacksmith and pay him some grain, he will give me. Now they are producing, Krupp Company in Germany, millions of razor, millions of scissors. Now they will have to find market, where to sell. And as soon as goes to sell in India, the British government---"No, no. You cannot sell." Then he becomes angry = "Oh, all right." He declares war.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So complex.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is going on. "These Britishers do not allow me to go there? All right, kill them." That was the Hitler policy and Kaiser's policy, to kill British Empire. They did it. They were successful. But they were also killed. This is going on, unnecessary. Why you produce so much razor and scissor, and then find out market, and when there is competition, there is anger, there is enviousness, there is fight, one after another, one after another? Where is peace? Why do you produce so many, unnecessarily? Why do you produce so many cars when there is scarcity of power, and fight with Arabians? Anartha. Therefore it is called anartha, unnecessary. Anarthopasamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje [SB 1.7.6]. As soon as people will be devotee, they will not require unnecessary things. They will be satisfied, simply bare necessities of life. That is peaceful condition. You create unnecessary needs of life, and then there is competition, there is hellish life, the factory, and then the factory man requires wine to forget his hard labor, so on, so on. Then he become thieves. He become rogues. This is your society. How you can expect peace?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The only solution is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: That's it, only solution.

Harikeśa: It also seems like the only government that would work would be the Vedic government. Varnāśrama-dharma is the only thing that will work.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa conscious government means Vedic government.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We have histories that for millions of years such governments were working successfully. Now, for a few thousand years, they squabble, this type of government, that type of government.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, first of all, the government is cheating. He is giving me paper in the name of money and forcing me to accept it.

Harikeśa: That seems to be the root cause of...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Government is taking labor from you. You ask, "If you pay me three hundred dollars, then I shall work." "All right, I shall give you. Work." Then what is that three hundred? I print and pay you, and you rascal, you accept it, three hundred dollars. What is that three hundred dollars for government? Printing press. And you are so rascal, "Yes, I have got now three hundred dollars." This is going on. This is artificial inflation. Why there is inflation? Now you have got three hundred dollars without any hard labor. And when you go to purchase---I haven't got three hundred dollars; you have got---"All right, I shall pay this price." So price is increased because the seller will see, "Who pays me large price?" So you have got unnecessary money; you offer him large price. So I am poor man; I could not purchase. This is going on.

Harikeśa: There was once a few plots exposed, how some governments were ruined because foreign governments were printing up money just like their money, and shipping it in.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. I have seen it. I have seen it during last wartime. One Chinese man was coming to one of my friend, my business friend. So he would give, immediately coming, a bunch of notes, maybe ten thousand.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Indian notes?

Prabhupāda: Yes. And a list of goods. He was his purchasing agent. So that bunch of notes was printed in China. You see? And he brings it and gives to a merchant here, and he gives him real goods, and he takes it out. This is inflation.

Devotee (2): Could he spend that money?

Prahupada: Yes. I print ten thousand dollars' worth currency note, and I give you, and I take you, actual goods from you, anywhere.

Harikeśa: The government is doing that all the time. They take contracts from people.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is going on. Therefore price is increasing daily. Formerly British government, in the beginning, to prove their honesty, as soon as you go to the currency for changing they will offer you, "You want coins or paper currency?" So if you think that paper currency will be convenient, you can take. Otherwise, if you want coins, they will pay you.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Gold coins.

Prabhupāda: Yes, gold, silver, whatever you want. That was the... Now this is stopped. You cannot ask now gold coins and silver coins. Whatever government will give you, you have to accept. Where is honesty?

Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in South Africa they have a coin called the Krugerrand. And one rand is worth one hundred cents, one rand of paper money. But one rand gold is worth about seventy-eight rand.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Devotee (1): It's constantly going up and down, the price. Hundred and eight.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Here is the car, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Everything mismanaged, cheating.

Harikeśa: So until the top man is Kṛṣṇa conscious, this cheating will basically continue.

Prabhupāda: Who is the top man? Everyone is top man. Instead of one king, now you have got one hundred kings---the minister, the secretaries, the under-secretaries, the deputy minister, and so on, so on, so on. So there was only one unfortunate king. Now you have got three dozen kings, and you have to maintain them like kings. This is going on.

Harikeśa: They can pay them with their phony money.

Prabhupāda: And they are seeking this post because they know that without doing anything, money will come. That's all. And as soon as you approach some minister, he will ask you, "All right, give me an application." And after six months' reminding, he will say, "No, it is not possible."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Because so many people have to apply for any one post. That's a fact. Then he will put his son there.

Prabhupāda: All rogues and thieves.

Harikeśa: So actually it is not possible to change the...

Prabhupāda: Change---if they become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Harikeśa: But the system itself is defective. How can...

Prabhupāda: No, the defective will be correct when you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Just like in your past life you had so many defects. Now it is corrected. That is practical.

Harikeśa: Let's say somebody is a minister...

Prabhupāda: Anybody.

Harikeśa: ...but his occupation is cheating.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Let him become Kṛṣṇa conscious. He will stop this cheating business.

Harikeśa: But he has to stop.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Rājarṣi.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He has to stop. It will be stopped as soon as he becomes a devotee.

Harikeśa: So then gradually it will become the varṇāśrama, with the one central head.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harikeśa: So we don't try to make a revolutionary system...

Prabhupāda: This is revolution.

Harikeśa: ...we try to just make them Kṛṣṇa conscious, then it's automatic revolution.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Peaceful revolution. Other revolution will not stand. [break]

[in car]

Prabhupāda: ...perfect philosophy.

Harikeśa: Your method is also the perfect method---the books in the colleges and libraries, educated people and... Wonderful. Actually, you have set everything up to do this.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is spoken by Kṛṣṇa. I am simply putting them for modern man's understanding. That's all.

Harikeśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Because they cannot understand, they think, "Dogmatic." It is not dogmatic. Most scientific.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they're all dull-brained. Satisfied with a few scraps and work like dogs. Would you like to walk here, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Where?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This place is okay?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's very close to the temple.

Harikeśa: Nobody plays golf that early in the morning? [break]

Prabhupāda: ...they have to manage, and the vaiśyas will produce, and brāhmaṇa will give the brain. Then the society will be peace... And at the present moment these śūdras, they are, by artificial votes, they are becoming the brain of the society. How it can be happy? The rascals, they are voted to the legislative assembly, and they are passing every day law which is never perfect. This is going on.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Stopgap measures.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They create problem, then they try to solve it.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One of our Life Members in Newcastle, a town between Durban and Johannesburg... The city council, they've decided they want to build a road right where his house is. He just built new house. Now they're going to tear it down, so then he has to build another house.

Prabhupāda: Just see. To punish him? [pause] Just see, so much loads of books. He's feeling unhappy, and what he is learning? To become hippie, that's all.

Harikeśa: He's learning to reject it.

Prabhupāda: From the childhood he's supplied so many books, and when he is young man, he is hippie. That's all. Instead of becoming brahmacārī, devotee, he is drunkard, he's drug addicted, that's all. [end]