Room Conversation with Mr. & Mrs. Wax , Chicago , 1975-07-05

[Mr. and Mrs. Wax are the parents of Puṇḍarīka dāsa]

Śrī Govinda: They would like to interview you and tape record possibly for using in one of their magazines.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

[break] Jayatīrtha, you can come here. If required, you will reply. What is that?

Jayatīrtha: This is the article that Mrs. Wax has written, and it was published in Harper's. It's one of the big national magazines. It's about Gurukula.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Jayatīrtha: It's nicely written.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Jayatīrtha: It's called "Raise Your Hand if You're an Eternal Spirit Soul."

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Jayatīrtha: We can record it on here.

Mrs. Wax: Thank you. It's an honor to be here. Because I wrote the article about Gurukula, I'm interested in what has happened there. I was there last summer. Do you have plans for other schools? And what is happening with Gurukula now? Is it standing?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Jayatīrtha: She wants to know what our plan is for Gurukula, whether we want to start other Gurukulas in other places... [child making noises]

Prabhupāda: [aside] Hmm, this child...

Jayatīrtha: Child should go out.

Prabhupāda: So you can explain what is the idea of Gurukula.

Jayatīrtha: So we do have plans for opening of other... Generally he likes to address more philosophical questions.

Mrs. Wax: All right.

Jayatīrtha: Because the questions about the future of the Society, others devotees can answer this just as well. But the philosophical questions that are [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: We want to raise first-class men. Try to understand. The present society, we are creating fourth-class men. Therefore we are not in very happy condition. We want to raise the fourth-class man to first-class man. First-class man means with qualification who can control the mind, control the senses, always very cleansed and truthful, very simple, full of all kinds of knowledge, practical application in life, then to have full knowledge of God---these are the characteristics of first-class man. So at the present moment everyone is a fourth-class man. So we want to get some first-class men. That is required. Because there is no idea of first-class man, therefore people are becoming full of crimes. You have seen the article in the Time: "Crime, Why and What to Do?"

That is the concern of the materialistic society. So we are trying to raise a group of men who will be ideal. Just like our devotees. You will find their characters different from all others, at least in your country. They do not have illicit sex; they do not eat meat; they do not have any intoxication, even smoking or taking tea; they do not indulge in gambling; they chant holy name of God, lead very simple life. So we are creating first-class men. There is need. It is not that everyone will become first-class man, but at least a section of man must be first class so that others can see that what is the ideal character of man. So this Gurukula means from the childhood age we are training them so that in future it will be easier. That is the purpose of Gurukula.

Mrs. Wax: The four natural divisions... I understand that at Vṛndāvana, that that will be an example to American society, but how can the four natural divisions of man be translated into American society?

Prabhupāda: It has to be. If you don't, then you must suffer with all these criminals. That is natural. Just like in your body there is head and there is arm and there is belly and there is leg. The head is the most important part. Why? Why not all legs? Why there are different divisions? Similarly, in the human society, if we want to make it perfect, there must be head, there must be arm, there must be belly, there must be legs. So leg can walk, but leg cannot do the work of brain. So at the present moment we have got all walking men, no brain. Therefore the society is in chaotic condition. There is no brain in the society. That is the defect of modern civilization. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. According to quality and work, there are four divisions. [aside:] You can push it back.

Four divisions. So similarly, four divisions must be there = a group of men, first class; a group of men, administrator; a group of men, food producer; and a group of men, general worker. So the brain is the chief. If your body... There are other parts, but if your head is cut off, then what is the use of other parts? If your hand is cut off, you can live. If your leg is cut off, you can live. But if your head is cut off, then finished. So that is lacking in the present society---no brain how to guide, so that whole human... If the brain is there, then it can guide. It can ask the hand to work in a certain way, the leg to work in certain way, to eat in a certain way. Then the health of the whole body will be quite competent. But if there is no brain, then everything... Just like a man becomes mad when the brain is not working.

Mrs. Wax: Who will decide what the propensities are, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Jayatīrtha: Who is to decide whether a person is first class, if they are a brāhmaṇa, or whether they are kṣatriya or vaiśya?

Prabhupāda: The book of knowledge. You can read Bhagavad-gītā. [aside:] Find out, śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa.


śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ
kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca
jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyam
brahma-karma svabhāva-jam

"Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness---these are the qualities by which a brāhmaṇa works."

Prabhupāda: This is first class. Now śamo damaḥ... Śamaḥ means controlling the mind---mind is always peaceful. You can train. Then controlling the senses. Then truthful. Then full of knowledge, practical application of knowledge in life. These are the qualification of first-class men. Everything is there. If you train a boy to become first-class man, he can become first-class man. If you don't train, then he will become a debauch, criminal, disturbing. So we are training in the Gurukula to become first-class men. This is our aim. Unless in the society an ideal first-class man, then how one will become, or follow, the ideal? There is no ideal. Now what is the idea of first-class man now? Can I ask you? What is your idea of first-class man? Whom do you call first-class man?

Jayatīrtha: Do you know any first-class men?

Mrs. Wax: I can't find any in our society. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: That is the defect. We have no idea who is first-class man. Everyone is drunkard, everyone smoker, everyone is gambler, everyone is illicit sex. Where is first-class man? So in the absence of first-class men there must be criminals. Aiye. So there is a need of first-class men---first-class men and second-class men. Third class, fourth class, fifth class, they are automatically there. So at the present moment fourth-class, fifth-class men. Third class is also very scarcely found, and there is no question of first class, second class. But as in the full body we require brain, we require arm, we require belly, we require leg... Everything is required for different purposes of work.

But at the present moment there is no place for the first-class men. When we ask our students that "You become free from all these four classes of sinful activity = no illicit sex, no meat-eating," people laugh = "Oh, why you are asking?" They do not know what is the ideal man. They think, "Illicit sex, what is wrong there? Meat-eating, what is wrong there?" They do not know what is right and wrong. Therefore all fourth-class men. They cannot understand even what is the value of these things. So you cannot be happy with fourth-class men. At least there must be a section, first-class men. That we are trying to create, a first-class man, from this Gurukula.

Mrs. Wax: The ten-year-old boys who left Gurukula and went to Vṛndāvana and then went to Māyāpur, what will they...? They will be trained in the divisions there and come back?

Prabhupāda: No, that is the ideal, to con..., mind completely controlled, senses completely controlled, truthful and simple life. In this way they will be trained up gradually. And we have got one hundred books like that. If they read all these books and if they are trained up in their character, then they will be, in future, first-class men.

Mrs. Wax: [indistinct question to Jayatīrtha regarding asking this question] Would you comment on the current political situation in India, what's happening right now?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that will happen everywhere, because there is no first-class man.

Mrs. Wax: So it doesn't matter if Narayana is successful?

Prabhupāda: No.

Mrs. Wax: None of them are first-class people is what you're saying.

Prabhupāda: They are politician. That also... All of them are fourth-class men. The fighting is between two section of fourth-class men. They do not know what is first-class man. Although the Bhagavad-gītā is there, they do not know, neither do they care. Just like I was telling = when we propose that "No illicit sex, no meat eating," they laugh, "Hah! What is that?" But when they are put into trouble, they say, "What to do?" When there is crime they say, "What to do?" They do not know how to tackle the situation because they are all third-class, fourth-class men. They do not know. They become disappointed.

Mrs. Wax: I realize that we're all considered spirit souls. But can a woman be first class if she...

Prabhupāda: Anyone can become first class.

Mrs. Wax: Dharma does not...

Prabhupāda: Woman can become first class if she is chaste and very much attached to husband. And if the husband is first class, she becomes first class. Because woman's duty is to follow husband. So if the husband is first class, the wife is first class, if she sticks to the husband.

Mrs. Wax: But she can never be first class unless she has a first-class husband.

Prabhupāda: No, she is first class by following faithfully husband. And if the husband is first class, then woman is first class.

Mrs. Wax: Could a woman be a temple president?

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not?

Mrs. Wax: Glad to hear it.

Prabhupāda: But because women are less intelligent, they should remain dependent on first-class father, first-class husband and first-class son. Then she is first class. That is the injunction. Woman should remain dependent in childhood upon first-class father, in youthhood upon first-class husband and in old age upon first-class son. Woman is never independent. If she becomes independent, her life is not very good. She must agree to remain dependent on first-class father, first-class husband and first-class son---three stages.

Mrs. Wax: She must become dependent on her son because her husband would ideally become a sannyāsī? Is that...?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You will find that Kapiladeva is instructing mother. [aside:] That picture you can show her. Third Canto? You see the picture in the cover? The first-class son is instructing mother. Her husband has taken sannyāsa and gone away. The son, first-class son, is instructing mother. That is the book. You will find full instruction to the mother. You can read one of the passages. You can read, Nitāi, what He is instructing to His mother. The mother is questioning and son is answering.

Nitāi: Śrī bhagavān uvāca...

Prabhupāda: The mother first of all inquired? No.

Nitāi: Uh, you want me to start there?

Prabhupāda: Devahūti? The mother's name is Devahūti. And the son is celebrated as "son of Devahūti." The son is famous with the mother's name. And mother is taking instruction from the son. This is ideal society.


devahūtir uvāca
nirviṇṇā nitarāṁ bhūmann
yena sambhāvyamānena
prapannāndhaṁ tamaḥ prabho

"Devahūti said = I am very sick of the disturbance of my material senses, for because of this sense disturbance, my Lord, I have fallen into the abyss of ignorance." Tasya tvaṁ tamaso 'ndhasya...

Prabhupāda: There is no purport of Devahūti?

Nitāi: "Here the word asad-indriya-tarṣaṇāt is significant. Asat means 'impermanent,' 'temporary,' and indriya means 'senses.' Thus asad-indriya-tarṣaṇāt means 'from being agitated by the temporarily manifest senses of the material body.' We are evolving through different statuses of material bodily existence---sometimes in a human body, sometimes in an animal body---and therefore the engagements of our material senses are also changing. Anything which changes is called temporary, or asat. We should know that beyond these temporary senses are our permanent senses, which are now covered by the material body.

The permanent senses, being contaminated by matter, are not acting properly. Devotional service, therefore, involves freeing the senses from this contamination. When the contamination is completely removed and the senses act in the purity of unalloyed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then we have reached the sad-indriya, or eternal sense activities. The eternal sensual activities are called devotional service, whereas temporary sensual activities are called sense gratification. Unless one becomes tired of material sense gratification, there is no opportunity to hear transcendental messages from a person like Kapila. Devahūti expressed that she was tired. Now that her husband had left home, she wanted to get relief by hearing the instructions of Lord Kapila."

Prabhupāda: So this full book is the answer and question between mother and son. So, although she is mother, she has given birth to the child, but she has become now dependent on this child for good instruction. This is ideal society.

Mrs. Wax: Thank you for answering my questions.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [aside:] Give them prasādam. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Indian guest: How do you advise Indians who are here and who have fallen to some extent in the materialistic world? They did not leave... Basically, they left their homes, most of them, to educate themselves. When they came here, they educated themselves, and they don't want to go back. Basically, they have fallen into the materialistic world. What advice you render them so that they get out of these clutches and go back and serve here or in the country, but they should be devotional to the Almighty God?

Prabhupāda: So there is no question of "here" and "there." You can become advanced in spiritual life anywhere if you follow the principles. That we are teaching. We are opening centers all over the world. You take the advantage of our teaching, our books, our center. Then it will be all right. They are following, these Europeans and American boys. They are young boys. They are giving up meat-eating. Do you give up meat-eating? Why Indians, you should learn meat-eating? They are giving up, and you are learning to eat meat. This is the lesson, that these foreigners---they were accustomed to eat meat from the childhood---they are giving up, and you are eating meat.

This is the instruction. Indians are drinking. They are giving up drinking. The lessons are already there. There is no question why. The lessons are already there, books are already there, the centers are already there. You learn and make your life purified. Where is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. When we say, "No meat-eating," it is meant for everyone. Anyone who wants to become first-class man, it is necessary for him. And there is no question of "Indian," "European," "American." You are committing so many sinful lives, and you want to become happy---that is not possible. Now this paper, Time, is puzzled = "Crime and What to Do?" But they do not know... [break]

Indian guest: ...here in America they are fighting to become independent. And also abortion. They are fighting that the abortion should be there. Now if this, your message, is conveyed through the reporters, and I would like the reporter to assess the reaction from the masses here, whether Gurukula is sponsoring for the women liberation and equal rights...

Prabhupāda: No, no, you are asking solution of the question who is already in darkness. You should take instruction from Bhagavad-gītā. You are asking women who are supposed to be dependent, and you are asking question from them. The answer will not be from them. The answer, the standard answer, you have to take from the book of knowledge, Bhagavad-gītā. Then the answer will be perfect.

Jayatīrtha: But if the people complain that we send our children to Gurukula at five, but their children they kill before they have a chance to be born. And they say that we are inhuman.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Jayatīrtha: The people in general, they say that we are inhuman because we send our children at five to Gurukula. But they do not think that they are killing their own children before they have a chance to be born.

Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore we say there is no first-class men to guide. They are killing child within the womb. They are not given chance to come out and see the light. And we are putting children at five, so we are criminal. They are denying the right of birth. So these things are happening because there is no first-class brain.

[indistinct exchange between Mrs. Wax and Jayatīrtha]

Mr. Wax: May I ask a question?

Prabhupāda: Yes?

Mr. Wax: In your many visits around the world, do you see a desire among many men to try to improve, to become first-class men?

Prabhupāda: Yes, in your country there are so many.

Mr. Wax: Is there a great desire around the world? We here are a small group.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Everywhere. In Africa also.

Mr. Wax: There's hope for our world today?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Otherwise, why we are trying, unless there is hope? We are not hopeless. If you train... If you can train a monkey to dance according to your will, why not human being? You can train even a tiger in the circus; he will act as you desire. It is the question of training. If the animal can be trained, why not a human being? You must know how to train. That knowledge is lacking, how to train. That we are giving, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Mr. Wax: Is there also a girls' appearance of [indistinct]. I mean, Kṛṣṇas are somewhat [indistinct].

Indian guest: Swāmījī, I'll ask one last question. What advice do you give to a man of family? I am taking my case, I have got four children, and they are, their ages, between six and thirteen. I have to see that they grow up nice, I have to see that they educate themself so that they are as according to you... I don't know. I don't call myself first class, second class, third class. As you said, there are no first-class men, second-class men. But then how, apart from making them first class that they should follow the religious...?

Prabhupāda: No, no, if you become first class, and they will follow you. You remain last class, and how you can train your first class? [laughter] In the śāstra it is said, "Unless you can create first-class man, don't beget children." Pitā na sa syāj janani na sa syād gurur na sa syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum [SB 5.5.18]. It is the duty of the father to raise his children first class. Otherwise he should not become a father. That is contraception. Just like Vasudeva and Devakī.

Formerly they were Vasus, and they were asked by Brahmā to create progeny. So the husband and wife, they practiced austerities very severely. So then God appeared before them = "What do you want?" And they said that "We can enter into family life provided You become our son...," no, "If we get a son like you." Then God said, "Where is second person like Me? So I shall become your son." Then, in next life, Devakī got Kṛṣṇa as his child. So every father and mother should take this vow, that "Unless our children become first class, we don't want children." This is ideal. What is the use of begetting cats and dogs? You must have first-class children. That requires tapasya.

So at least we should follow the standard, how to raise our children to become first class. [aside:] There is no current? You can get on the light. At the present moment, people cannot understand even that there is life after death---most people. There is life after death, they cannot understand, even big, big professors, big, big learned scholars. Everyone is thinking, "This body is accidental, and when the body will be finished, everything is finished." That is the general understanding. But Bhagavad-gītā, you read. It is said, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20] = "After the destruction of the body, the soul is not destroyed." Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya navāni anyāṇi gṛhṇāti aparāṇi [Bg. 2.22] = "Just like when our dress becomes old enough not to be used, then we accept another dress; similarly, when this body is old enough, not workable, then we accept another body." These things are there. But who is trying to understand it? At least all our Indians, those who are born in India, wherefrom Bhagavad-gītā has come out, at least they should understand. But they are not understanding. They are interpreting Bhagavad-gītā in their own way. This is the difficulty. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and people are taking advantage of that.

So first-class man, he knows what is Bhagavad-gītā and tries to apply the teachings in practical life. Then you become first class. In the Bhagavad-gītā you will find first-class eating, first-class life; second-class eating, second-class life; third-class... Everything is there. So people should be trained up. Economic question? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. You produce food grain, anna, sufficiently. So there is immense land still. Say, in America, so much land is without any utilization, in Africa, in Australia. They are not being properly utilized. People are complaining, "Overpopulation." Now countries which are overpopulated, they are not allowed to utilize the vacant land, neither people are being trained how to [Hindi] produce food grain. They are being trained up, technology, to produce motor tire.

And nobody is interested to produce food grain. So without taking food grains, they are killing animals and they are eating, short cut. They do not know killing of animals is sinful activity. This is the... Man is advanced; he can grow food. This killing of animals is for the non-civilized society. They cannot... They do not know how to grow food. They were killing animals. When man is advanced in his knowledge and education, why they should kill? Especially in America, we see so many nice foodstuffs---fruits, grains, milk. And from milk, you can get hundreds of nice preparations, all nutritious. In our New Vrindaban we are doing that---rābṛi, pera, burfī. The other farmers are surprised that from milk such nice preparation can be prepared. So instead of teaching them---you Indian, you know how to utilize milk and prepare so many nice preparation---you are learning how to eat meat. Why?

So if you forget your culture and if you become victimized, that is your fault. You should teach them how to utilize milk. And if the cows are kept jubilant, they will deliver double milk. They know, "We shall be killed." They are always depressed. Therefore milk is not properly supplied. So that is stated in the Bhagavad..., er, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that during Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's time the cows were so jubilant that milk was dropping from the milk bags so much so that the pasturing grounds became muddy with milk. So if you keep... Killing of cows means utilizing the blood in different form. The milk is also another transformation of the blood.

So if you take milk sufficiently and prepare nice foodstuff, then it is equally beneficial like the meat from health point of view. But one must know the..., learn that keep the cow living; at the same time be benefited by the blood. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā you will find this word kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. Go-rakṣya. This animal has to be protected. Not other animals it is mentioned. And go, cow. So those who are meat-eaters, they can eat nonimportant animals. But cows should be given protection. This is the instruction. But in the Western country the cows are specially being killed. Now the reaction is war, crime, and they are now repentant. And they will have to repent more and more.

Jayatīrtha: So the wars and the crime are a direct result of the cow slaughter.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. It is a wholesale reaction. All these crises are taking place. They are killing their own child. Own child means that child is criminal; therefore it is being killed within the womb. Nature will take action. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. You are not independent. So if you work independently, then you will have to suffer. The law of nature is there. You cannot avoid it. If you infect some disease, you must suffer from the disease. You cannot avoid it. This is the law of nature. Law of nature is working in such a way that as you are infecting... Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ asya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu [Bg. 13.22]. [aside:]

Find out this verse. Why there are varieties of life? One is tree, one is cat, one is dog, one is human being, one is blind, one is lame, one is educated, one is foolish---why? Why the difference, varieties? And that is answered in the Bhagavad-gītā, kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya: "As you are infecting the modes of material nature, you are getting your birth." Otherwise, how you can explain by nature there are so many varieties of life, 8,400,000 species of life?

Jayatīrtha: You mentioned several times that those persons who are guilty of abortion, then they also enter a womb, but never leave it alive. They're also killed within the womb.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That means... That child is killed means it must take another birth. Again in the womb it will be killed. Again another womb. This is going on. Mūḍha janmani janmani [Bg. 16.20]. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, "Birth after birth they will be put into the darkness of life."


puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi
bhunkte prakṛti-jān guṇān
kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo'sya

"The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil amongst various species."

Prabhupāda: Purport.

Nitāi: "This verse is very important for an understanding of how the living entities transmigrate from one body to another. It is explained in the Second Chapter that the living entity is transmigrating from one body to another just as one changes dress. This change of dress is due to his attachment to material existence. As long as he is captivated by this false manifestation, he has to continue transmigrating from one body to another. Due to his desire to lord it over material nature, he is put into such undesirable circumstances. Under the influence of material desire, the entity is born sometimes as a demigod, sometimes as a man, sometimes as a beast, as a bird, as a worm, as an aquatic, as a saintly man, as a bug.

This is going on. And in all cases the living entity thinks himself to be the master of his circumstances, yet he is under the influence of material nature. How he is put into such different bodies is explained here. It is due to association with the different modes of nature. One has to rise, therefore, above the three material modes and become situated in the transcendental position. That is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Unless one is situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his material consciousness will oblige him to transfer from one body to another because he has material desires since time immemorial. But he has to change that conception. That change can be effected only by hearing from authoritative sources. The best example is here = Arjuna is hearing the science of God from Kṛṣṇa. The living entity, if he submits to this hearing process, will lose his long-cherished desire to dominate the material nature, and gradually and proportionately, as he reduces his long desire to dominate, he comes to enjoy spiritual happiness."

Prabhupāda: They are trying to dominate the material nature, the so-called scientists. But they do not know that they are under the domination of material nature. They are forgetting that. If you are more powerful, if you are dominating me, how I can dominate you? That they do not know, that we are under the domination of material nature. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9]. The domination is manifest by four things = birth, death, old age and disease. I cannot dominate my birth, death, old age and disease, and I am trying to dominate over nature. Just foolishness. Big, big scientist, did he dominate over death, Professor Einstein? Did not he die?

Why he could not find out any means that he will not die? What is the meaning of the science? If you are dominated by the laws of material nature, how you are thinking that you shall dominate over material nature? When death comes, can you dominate? "No, no, I am scientist. Just wait." No, you must die immediately. So where is your domination? You are dominated by material nature. That is the mistake of the present society = that everyone is being dominated by the material nature, and the so-called scientist is trying to dominate over material nature. How it is possible? Therefore it is said,

daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī
mama māyā duratyayā
mām eva ya prapadyante
māyām etāṁ taranti te

Find out this verse. [aside:] Just wait. [gets up and leaves room] [pause---Jayatīrtha talks to guests] [break] So you have read that verse, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī?

Nitāi: No.

daivi hy eṣā guṇamayī
mama māyā duratyayā
mām eva ye prapadyante
māyām etāṁ taranti te

"This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it."

Prabhupāda: Purport.

Nitāi: "The Supreme Personality of Godhead has innumerable energies, and all these energies are divine. Although the living entities are part of His energies and are therefore divine, due to contact with material energy their original superior power is covered. Being thus covered by material energy, one cannot possibly overcome its influence. As previously stated, both the material and spiritual natures, being emanations from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, are eternal. The living entities belong to the eternal superior nature of the Lord, but due to contamination by the inferior nature, matter, their illusion is also eternal. The conditioned soul is therefore called nitya-baddha, or eternally conditioned. No one can trace out the history of his becoming conditioned at a certain date in material history. Consequently, his release from the clutches of material nature is very difficult, even though that material nature is an inferior energy, because material energy is ultimately conducted by the supreme will, which the living entity cannot overcome. Inferior material nature is defined herein as divine nature due to its divine connection and movement by the divine will. Being conducted by divine will, material nature, although inferior, acts so wonderfully in the construction and destruction of the cosmic manifestation. The Vedas confirm this as follows = māyāṁ tu prakṛtiṁ vidyān māyinaṁ tu maheśvaram [Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 4.10]. "Although māyā [illusion] is false or temporary, the background of māyā is the supreme magician, the Personality of Godhead, who is Maheśvara, the supreme controller.

"Another meaning of guṇa is rope; it is to be understood that the conditioned soul is tightly tied by the ropes of illusion. A man bound by the hands and feet cannot free himself---he must be helped by a person who is unbound. Because the bound cannot help the unbound...," excuse me, "Because the bound cannot help the bound, the rescuer must be liberated. Therefore, only Lord Kṛṣṇa, or His bona fide representative the spiritual master, can release the conditioned soul. Without such superior help, one cannot be freed from the bondage of material nature. Devotional service, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, can help one gain such release. Kṛṣṇa, being the Lord of illusory energy, can order this insurmountable energy to release the conditioned soul. He orders this release out of His causeless mercy upon the surrendered soul and out of His paternal affection for the living entity, who is originally a beloved son of the Lord. Therefore surrender unto the lotus feet of the Lord is the only means to get free from the clutches of the stringent material nature.

"The words mām eva are also significant. Mām means unto Kṛṣṇa [Viṣṇu] only, and not Brahmā or Śiva. Although Brahmā and Śiva are greatly elevated and are almost on the level of Viṣṇu, it is not possible for such incarnations of rājo-guṇa [passion] and tamo-guṇa [ignorance] to release the conditioned soul from the clutches of māyā. In other words, both Brahmā and Śiva are also under the influence of māyā. Only Viṣṇu is the master of māyā; therefore He can alone give release to the conditioned soul. The Vedas confirm this in the phrase tvam eva viditvā, or "Freedom is possible only by understanding Kṛṣṇa." Even Lord Śiva affirms that liberation can be achieved only by the mercy of Viṣṇu. Lord Śiva says, mukti-pradātā sarveṣāṁ viṣṇur eva na saṁśayaḥ: "There is no doubt that Viṣṇu is the deliverer of liberation for everyone."

Prabhupāda: So everything is explained. If anyone wants to take advantage of it, he can take. We have got fifty books like this. Those who are interested in the science and philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they can read all these books. Otherwise, one can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will also help. The human civilization means everyone shall try to become first-class man. This is human civilization, not to remain like animals. That attempt is lacking now. Here the civilization is that the dog is jumping or running, and human being is running in a motorcar, and he is thinking he is more civilized than the dog. But the business is running, that's all. The dog is having sex on the street, and the human being is having sex in a very nice decorated apartment, and therefore he is civilized. But the business is the same. The dog is eating on the floor and the human being is eating in a very nice table, nice dish, and therefore he is civilized. But the business is eating. The dog is trying to defend itself by barking or by teeth and jaws, and the human being is trying to defend the society by atom bomb, but the business is defense.

Therefore śāstra says, āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca samanyam etat paśubhir narāṇām [Hitopadeśa] = "This business of eating, sleeping, mating and defending is common to the animal and to the man." The man, if he does not understand what he is, why he is suffering this material tribulations, then he remains cats and dogs. The cats and dogs, they cannot question, but human being can question. And he should take the answer from these books of knowledge. That is human life. Otherwise, so far eating, sleeping, sex and defense, that is common for the dogs and man. There is no difference. He is doing in his own way, we are doing in our own way, but the business is the same. So human being must go above these four businesses---the fifth business. The fifth business is how to understand God. Otherwise, the bodily four businesses, that is common. Even an ant, it is also eating. It is going from this place to that place = "Where is a grain of sugar?" And we are also running in car this way and that way = "Where is eating?" The hog is also running = "Where is stool? Where is stool?" So... [break] [child makes sounds] Is he chanting mantra? That a small...

Jayatīrtha: Yes, he's chanting nicely.

Prabhupāda: [to child] Thank you, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Just see. He is being trained up. Just see how he is taking lesson. So it is possible. So from childhood, if he is trained up, then in future he will become first-class man.

Jayatīrtha: Sometimes people complain that we don't give our children any right of free choice, that we train them in our own way.

Prabhupāda: This is nonsense, to give free choice to the child. This is nonsense. Child should be protected. That is intelligence. That is the wrong type of consciousness. According to Vedic civilization, a child, a woman, a brāhmaṇa, a cow and an old man, they should be given protection---not freedom, but protection.

Jayatīrtha: At the same time in that Time article it discussed that about fifty percent of the crime was done by children under eighteen, and people are afraid even to go to the schools.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are not educated properly. Not only that, they have given photograph = the children take small...

Brahmānanda: Weapons.

Prabhupāda: Yes, weapon, knife. And examination is held under police vigilance. This is the education.

Mrs. Wax: Some of us are parents of devotees, and when you came to America nine years ago, eight years ago...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mrs. Wax: ...some young people were attracted to the message and responded and joined Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Is there a special reason? What explanation do you have why some...?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The special reason was... That was published in one paper, Voice East. What is that?

Devotees: Village Voice.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They wrote a very big article, that "We thought God is dead, but Swāmījī has brought God in his kīrtana." They wrote this article. They found God's presence in Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. This Brahmānanda, he was attracted first.

Mrs. Wax: The first one?

Brahmānanda: One of the first ones.

Mrs. Wax: Really?

Prabhupāda: His photo was published in New York Times, dancing. He and another boy... [laughter] Yes. He and another boy, Acyutānanda---he is now in India; he is also sannyāsī---these two boys were dancing hand to hand, and this was published in New York Times.

Mrs. Wax: What I'm asking is why could he understand?

Prabhupāda: Then you ask him how, he'll reply. [laughter]

Mrs. Wax: Why did you?

Prabhupāda: Why he became attracted and began to dance? He is present here. I did not ask him to come and dance.

Brahmānanda: Well, I was just... I cannot say exactly why. I was searching, however. I was looking for something better than what I was doing.

Prabhupāda: His father predicted that "This boy will become a pious man. He is not going to take up my business." [laughter] His father is a very big, rich man, running on factories. But he was disappointed that "This, my child, will not be a factory worker." Is it not? You tell.

Brahmānanda: Yes. Actually we also say that it is Prabhupāda's grace that he came here, and he actually delivered a process which is nothing of his own manufacture. This chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa is a bona fide transcendental process. And Prabhupāda has delivered it purely. So therefore it has great effect. Although it seems that there are only a few of us who are actually taking to this movement, we consider that we are representative of the whole world. Actually this movement has now spread all over the world. I myself have been in Africa, and the movement is even taking effect there. So we see that our movement is very important, and we have members from practically every country, every religion, every kind of social group in the world. Therefore we see a great scope for this movement. And at the present moment we are not getting so much help from governments, authorities, so many groups that could offer, especially, financial help. We're having to do everything by ourselves. So therefore our facilities are limited. If we had more facility, certainly this movement would grow far more than it is now.

Prabhupāda: [aside:] Upendra. You can take it. [pause] So try to understand this movement and write more and more articles and educate your countrymen. That will be very nice.

Mrs. Wax: I'm trying.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mrs. Wax: My son is educating me. That's what you said.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Mrs. Wax: You said that's the proper...

Prabhupāda: Yes, son should be so nicely educated that he can teach his mother also.

Mrs. Wax: He does.

Prabhupāda: That is nice. Some of the parents of my disciples, they come to congratulate, give me thanks. And some of them to curse me, [laughter] that [laughs] "You have spoiled our children." [laughing] Brahmānanda's mother is very angry. [laughter]

Mrs. Wax: She's very angry?

Brahmānanda: She has given myself and also my brother.

Mrs. Wax: Oh, your brother too.

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: When she came to see me I asked, "Mrs. Bruce, you have got money. Give me some money." So she became angry = "I have given my two sons." [laughter]

Mrs. Wax: Your brother joined after you?

Brahmānanda: Just a month after.

Mrs. Wax: Are there any more?

Brahmānanda: One sister. She's never...

Mrs. Wax: Never walked out. [laughter]

Jayatīrtha: The parents of one devotee came to the temple in Los Angeles and were picketing with signs in front of the building.

Mrs. Wax: Oh, really?

Jayatīrtha: They were accusing us of kidnapping their daughter. When I spoke with them I said, "Before your daughter came to our movement she was taking drugs and having sex life, even though she was at an early age, and so many nonsense things. But now she's not doing those things." They said, "I'd rather she be doing those things than joining your movement." So some people, they can't appreciate.

Mrs. Wax: I understand Mr. Patrick kidnapped Lakṣmī-nārāyaṇa. Is he all right?

Jayatīrtha: Lakṣmī-nārāyaṇa. Yes. He escaped.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayatīrtha: There's this one fellow, Mr. Ted Patrick. He goes and he kidnaps the devotees. The parents pay him $1,000 up to $25,000...

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Jayatīrtha: ...depending on how wealthy they are. He kidnaps them and tries to brainwash them that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not good.

Devotee: He calls it deprogramming. He says... He tries to deprogram the devotees, that we have simply been hypnotized by chanting. So he has to snap us out of it by deprogramming. And he uses very severe techniques, very harsh.

Prabhupāda: And the parents are inducing him.

Jayatīrtha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Brahmānanda: All over America.

Jayatīrtha: They tear off the neckbeads and tear up your pictures in front of the devotees, try to force them to eat meat. So many things.

Devotee: Blasphemy.

Jayatīrtha: Recently we got a conviction against him. He got six months in prison. In Los Angeles we got to convict him for this kind of activity. So he is being stopped.

Indian guest: Also he can't come to Canada any more, can't cross the border.

Jayatīrtha: Oh, he's been barred.

Indian guest: He is barred from coming to Canada.

Brahmānanda: He was put into the Denver county jail also when we were in Denver. He's out on bail now.

Mrs. Wax: Not only kidnapping devotees, Kṛṣṇa devotees, but all religious movements. He can't stand them.

Prabhupāda: And the parents are taking help from him.

Jayatīrtha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is the difficulty.

Mrs. Wax: I've noticed that there are different dates given to when the Vedas began, the beginnings of the Vedas. Some historians and authorities say one thing, and I've seen many different figures. What is the accurate time they were spoken?

Prabhupāda: If you can find out what is the accurate time of this cosmic creation, then you will find the date of Vedas. Can you find out when it was created? Have you got any statistics?

Mrs. Wax: No, none. I was hoping you did. [laughs]

Mr. Wax: How old is the Hare Kṛṣṇa chant?

Prabhupāda: As old as this creation.

Mr. Wax: [indistinct] If you get any statistics, let me know.

Brahmānanda: It shows the limitation of our scientific knowledge that we don't even know the accurate date of the cosmic manifestation.

Prabhupāda: So far Kṛṣṇa consciousness is concerned, you can take it = since five thousand years, when Kṛṣṇa was present, He gave this instruction. But it existed before Kṛṣṇa's instruction. About forty millions of years ago He gave this instruction to the sun-god. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā:

imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ
proktavān aham avyayam
vivasvān manave prāha
manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt

So if we take up the statement of Bhagavad-gītā, then five thousand years ago this was spoken for the second time, and first time it was spoken forty millions of years ago. Therefore it is permanent, not that something new. It is existing eternally. Sometimes we are missing, and sometimes we are accepting, but it is existing eternally. You cannot trace out the history. Our calculation of history means we are trying to make the eternal time relatively limited with our life. But the time is eternal. We are changing our forms of life many, many million times, but the time is there. So the calculation of past, present, future is relative according to the duration of my life. An ant's past, present, future is not the same past, present, future as of human being. The past, present, future is relative according to the duration of life and body. So Brahma's past, present, future and our past and present, future, is not the same. So time is eternal, and past, present, future is calculation of relative knowledge. That is not correct.

Jayatīrtha: Like the frog in the well.

Prabhupāda: Yes. A frog in the well is thinking, "This is the limit of water." [laughter] And if you say there is Atlantic Ocean, he cannot understand it. He will think, "What is that?" "Oh, it is very big." "How much? Is it three feet? It is four feet?" "No, no, very big." "Five feet?" "No, no, still..." "Six feet?" So he is calculating in that way, "Four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten." But Atlantic Ocean is beyond his conception. So these are all Dr. Frog's philosophy. Yes. And the so-called philosophers, they are Dr. Frog. [laughter] We consider them as Dr. Frog. Some of my students who are doctors, they are now trying to give up their job because they are understanding this is all false knowledge. Yes.

Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, because you are presenting this knowledge so purely, then it's possible for the common man to understand this knowledge without chanting and following the four regulative principles?

Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is not possible. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. You have to cleanse the mirror of your consciousness, then the reflection will be properly viewed. If you keep it dirty, then it is not possible. Therefore we require first-class men to understand this philosophy, not the fourth-class man. If you keep him fourth-class man, it is not possible.

Devotee (2): We are giving these books to so many common men. Then the books will attract them to perhaps chanting and following the regulative principles?

Prabhupāda: Yes, if they read. Even if they touch. That is the difference between this book and ordinary book. Even they touch and they read one line and says, "Oh, it is very nice," he makes a step forward. If he simply says this word, "Oh, it is very nice," that is sufficient to bring him. Therefore I am trying to push. He has paid some money. He will then say, "What these nonsense have written, let me see." [laughter] And if he sees and says, "Oh, it is very nice," then the beginning is immediately. Therefore we are trying to push. At least let him say, "It is very nice." The Kārtikeya's mother, the practical experience... The Kārtikeya, when he used to go to see his mother, the mother was going to dance, ball dance, and she would not speak = "All right, sit down. I am coming." She used to go out. The same mother, gradually, in the association of her son, became Kṛṣṇa conscious. So at the time of death she asked Kārtikeya, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" and she died immediately. This is the effect. So anta-kāle, she remembered Kṛṣṇa, so her life was successful. She inquired like this, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" and immediately died. So she got the benefit of her son's Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You can ask Kārtikeya also. She said that.

Jayatīrtha: Yes, he told me that story.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So all the mothers of my disciples, they will get salvation, because she has got nice son like...

Jayatīrtha: All the mothers will get salvation.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Mrs. Wax: Oh, good. [laughter]

Devotee (3): What about the fathers?

Prabhupāda: Father also. Both the father and mother. Because they are father and mother of a Vaiṣṇava devotee, so they will be taken special care. You'll find from the Prahlāda Mahārāja's description. Even a father like Hiraṇyakaśipu, he got salvation because Prahlāda was son.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it seems strange that so many parents who are engaged in meat-eating and illicit sex and intoxication and gambling could have a son who would become a Vaiṣṇava.

Prabhupāda: Therefore they will get the advantage of the son. Somehow or other, they have produced a son, Vaiṣṇava, so the son's activities will react upon the life of the parents. Because naturally the sons think of the father and mother, that is beneficial for them. However one may be renounced, he cannot get rid of family affection. That is natural. So the Vaiṣṇava son sometimes thinks of the father and mother. So they are getting the benefit.

Devotee: So sometimes the attachment is beneficial, then?

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? We are trying to be attached with Kṛṣṇa. This is our movement. Instead of having attachment with this whole material world, we are turning to transfer the attachment to Kṛṣṇa. [aside:] Find out this verse,

mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha
yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ
asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ
yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu

The whole movement is how to increase attachment for Kṛṣṇa. [aside:] Yes, read.


śrī-bhagavān uvāca
mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha
yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ
asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ
yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu

"Now hear, O son of Pṛthā, Arjuna, how by practicing yoga in full consciousness of Me, with mind attached to Me, you can know Me in full..."

Prabhupāda: "With mind attached to Me." This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to keep the mind attached to Kṛṣṇa. That is success. That yoga we are practicing, how to keep the mind attached to Kṛṣṇa. Then it is successful. Our mind is attached to something. Without attachment, mind cannot be free even for a moment. So the bhakti-yoga means how to transfer the attachment of mind to Kṛṣṇa, that's all. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You are working, you are rendering your service without any charges, without any profit---why? Because your mind has been attached to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, what business you have got to work for Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement without any remuneration? You are all American boys. You are qualified. You can earn thousands of dollars. But why you have given up? Because you are attached to Kṛṣṇa. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 2.59]. You have found better attachment; therefore you given up. So that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are attached to so many nonsense things. When we wind up all these attachments and concentrate on Kṛṣṇa, then life is perfect. That is wanted. We are not going to sacrifice attachment. But we are trying to transfer the attachment from matter to Kṛṣṇa. Then our life is successful. But that attachment is very rare.

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu
kaścid yatati siddhaye
yatatām api siddhānāṁ
kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ

So our business is, spiritual master's business is, how to help the disciple to transfer the attachment. It is not that we are creating an..., artificially, no. The attachment quality is there. But it is being mixed up with material things. And if you purify this material contamination, then the attachment become pure, and that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like the water falls from the sky. It is distilled water. And as soon as it is in touch with the ground it becomes muddy, dirty. Again that water, if you distill, again it becomes distilled water, as good as the rainwater, original. Therefore bhakti means sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. All the dirty things of designation should be cleansed. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam. When the mind is cleansed, nirmalam, without any dirty thing, then you can begin bhakti immediately, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate [Cc. Madhya 19.170].

So bhakti means cleansing process. Originally, distilled water from the sky, in touch with the ground, it is muddy. You filter it or distill it, it becomes original. The consciousness is there, but it has become muddy. You cleanse it, it is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore we say, "Don't do this. Don't do this." Don't mix again muddy things. It has already become muddy. Your business to cleanse it, and again if you make it muddy with addition of other nonsense things, then it will be delayed. When you ignite fire, you require dry wood. But if you ignite fire, at the same time pour water, then how it will burn? Don't pour water. Therefore we have so many "don'ts." "Don'ts" means that you are burning the fire. Go on. Don't add water. And that is "don't." If you ignite fire, at the same time add water, then how it will burn? Water is the counter-ingredient of fire. If you want to extinguish fire, then add water. But if you want to prolong the fire burning, then you should not add water. So this material enjoyment---illicit sex, intoxication, meat-eating, gambling---one should be free from these waterlike things while you are in the fire of spiritual consciousness. Don't bring these things. You cannot go on burning the fire, at the same time adding water. Then it will be useless waste of time.

Anartha upaśamam. Anartha upaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam [SB 1.7.6]. Bhakti-yogam means anartha, unwanted things, upaśamam, subsiding. This is anartha. Just like we don't eat meat. Are we dying for want of meat? But they have taken it that without eating meat they will die. This is nonsense. And they are maintaining so many slaughterhouses, committing sinful life, only for misunderstanding. They do not see that "Here are some persons. They do not eat meat. They look very bright-faced. So why should I eat meat?" Anartha, unnecessarily, simply for the taste of the tongue, they are committing so much sinful activities.

So just we are teaching, "Just control your tongue." That is called śamaḥ, damaḥ. Because the tongue wants something, I have to eat, give it---that is not human civilization. If I control my tongue---tongue wants this thing; I say, "No, not this thing; you take this thing"---then you are master, you are master of the senses. Otherwise you are servant of the senses. Because some of my senses want something... That is natural. But if I can control = "No, this not. This," that is called śamaḥ, damaḥ. And if I become victim of the dictation of the senses, then I cannot make progress in my spiritual life; I am third-class, fourth-class man. Mind wants to steal something. If you can control, "No, why stealing?" Then you are master. [end]