Garden Conversation with Dr. Allen Gerson , Los Angeles , 1975-06-22
Harikeśa: [introducing recording] This is a recording conversation, Sunday, 5 o'clock, June 22nd.
Dharmādhyakṣa: With Dr. Allen Gerson. [break]
Dr. Gerson: ...beginning of a two-year study on the devotees, trying to demonstrate to the people in the material world the psychological benefits that come over the devotees as they become more and more involved in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ [SB 9.4.18]. First of all we have to change our mental activities into Kṛṣṇa activities. Then everything will be all right. The mind is engaged always, so the engagement should be with Kṛṣṇa. And if we read these books, our mind is always engaged in Kṛṣṇa. The same thing, our mind is engaged in material activities. The same mind is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's activities, then the whole thing changes.
Dr. Gerson: I have yet to look into the material that I'm presenting to the devotees, but my experience with them is that as they are into the movement longer and longer and become deeper involved in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, just exactly that is happening, that their material nature seems to become much more relaxed and...
Prabhupāda: Yes, there will be no more material activities. Just like you take a iron rod and put into the fire. It becomes warm, warmer, and at last it becomes red hot. When the iron rod is red hot, it is no longer iron rod; it is fire. If you touch the iron rod, red hot, anywhere, it will act as fire. Similarly, if you engage your mind in Kṛṣṇa activity, the mind becomes Kṛṣṇaized gradually, and when he is advanced, there is no material activities, all spiritual activities. Just like here in this temple there is no material activities. And material activities means based on this illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. Here you will not find anything of this.
Dr. Gerson: I would like to demonstrate through my study, which will be going on for two years and then come out as a book, the benefits of giving up illicit sex, meat-eating and the other things.
Dr. Gerson: Yes.
Prabhupāda: These are all material necessities. So if you come to the spiritual platform, the test is that you have no material necessities. So long you are diseased, you require medicine, but when you are not diseased there is no need of medicine. It is the healthy state. So, so long we are materially diseased, we require all these material necessities. So when you are on the spiritual platform there is no material... Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau. Then you conquer over even our prime necessities, eating, sleeping, mating and defense. The prime necessities, the primary necessities, you don't require. You will sleep less, you will eat less, there is no need of mating, what is..., there is very less. So the lesser, lesser you become, that means spiritual. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syat [SB 11.2.42]. Your spiritual advancement means you become reluctant, disgusted with this = "No more." Just like Yamunācārya, he explains his position,
nava-nava-dhaman rantum āsīt
tad-avadhi bata nārī-saṅgame smaryamāṇe
bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ suṣṭhu niṣṭhīvanaṁ ca
"Since I have begun my Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the more I advance I become very much detestful for sex life. As soon as I think of sex life, I spit on it." [makes spitting noise] "What is this...?"
Prabhupāda: This is the test. So long we have got taste for this material enjoyment, that means we are not advanced. Therefore the Vedic civilization is, voluntarily they give up this household life and become a sannyāsī, where there is no need of sex life. Then, after sannyāsa life, he becomes paramahaṁsa. That is Vedic civilization.
Dr. Gerson: I've noticed changes just in the few months that I've been among the devotees, in myself, and they've been in that direction, and it's a very nice feeling to be able to feel, at least in small part, into the spiritual world.
Prabhupāda: The Vedic civilization, therefore, teaches the student, brahmacārī, how to remain without sex life. Those who are unable to continue that, they are allowed, "All right, be married life." And that is also for twenty-five years. A student remains brahmacārī up to twenty-five years, and if he wants to take this sex license---household life means sex life---so he can get the license for twenty-five years more. So at the age of fifty years, fiftieth year, he gives up voluntarily. He keeps his wife with him just to assist him to advance in spiritual life, and they go from one holy place to another. And then, when they are practiced, then the woman is sent to his elderly sons to take care, and the man takes sannyāsa.
This is Vedic civilization, varṇāśrama, four varṇas and four āśramas: the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra... And the sannyāsa is especially meant for the brāhmaṇas, not the kṣatriyas or the vaiśyas, because they are not very much advanced. But the brāhmaṇa is advanced from the very beginning. Therefore sannyāsa is for the brāhmaṇa. The system, that without being a brāhmaṇa nobody can take sannyāsa. So I am criticized by others in India that I am giving sannyāsa to them. Of course, according to the principle, they are not fit for sannyāsa, but because Caitanya Mahāprabhu also took sannyāsa at the age of twenty-four years... Śaṅkarācārya took sannyāsa at the age of eight years. He lived only for thirty-two years. Caitanya Mahāprabhu lived for forty-eight years. So for ordinary man, sannyāsa is difficult. But for preaching work, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's footprints we are trying to follow.
Dr. Gerson: I think here in America that people probably criticize because they're ignorant, and I hope to...
Prabhupāda: That "American," that I have discussed. Those who are in the bodily concept of life, they are not even human being. They are animals. Yasyātmā-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13]. One who takes this body, "I am"---"I am American," "I am German," "I am Englishman," "I am Indian"---they are animals. They are not even human. When you deny, that "I am not American, I am not Indian, not Englishman. I am not this body," then he is in the spiritual body. That's all. And so long he will identify that "I am this body, and because my body is American, therefore I am American," that is animal life. That is not even a human life. So that is going on all over the world, identifying the body as self = "I am American," "I am German," "I am Englishman," "I am Indian."
The whole United Nation is based on this conception. So where is unity? If you are thinking as "American" or "Indian" or "Pakistani" or "German," so where is the question of unity? But they have manufactured a false method, United Nation, by lecturing. Just like if you bring a dozen of dogs and ask them, "Live peacefully," will they live peacefully? They will bark, "Ow! Ow! Ow!" So this is going on. If you keep them as they are dogs, how you can expect unity? So they should not remain as dogs. They should come to become human beings, then there is question of... But they want to keep them as dogs, and at the same time, they want to unite. Therefore it is unsuccessful. Is it not? Is it not unsuccessful?
Dr. Gerson: I couldn't hear.
Devotees: United Nations unsuccessful.
Dr. Gerson: Oh, it is unsuccessful. Yes. I meet many people in the course of my work that are very unhappy because of the frustrations that they experience.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this place is for unhappiness. In the Bhagavad-gītā you will find this place, the material world, has been described as duḥkhālayam. Duḥkhālayam means the place of miseries. So how you... If the place is made for miseries, how you can make this place as full of pleasure, if God made like that? Just like if you are put into the prison house and if you want to live very comfortably, is it possible? Prison house is meant for giving you trouble so that you may be rectified, no more stealing, not to become criminal. It is meant for punishment. Similarly, this whole material world is meant for punishing these criminals who wanted to enjoy independently God's property. They are all criminals.
We are worshiping the best nationalist, who is thinking in terms that "This place is mine," philanthropist or political leader. But actually, he is a thief because he is claiming God's property as his own. He is a criminal. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-loka-maheśvaram: "I am the proprietor of all the planets, all the universes." Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg. 5.29] = "I am the friend of all living entities." But these people, they are claiming that... The leader is claiming, "I am the friend," and he is claiming, "I am the proprietor." They are, therefore, criminal. He is not friend. Just like your president. He is not friend of the countrymen.
So this is the position of the most exalted man, and what to speak of the ordinary man. Nobody is friend. All enemies. Therefore I am envious of you, you are envious of me. There is no question of becoming friend, because everyone is selfish. He wants his personal benefit, so how he can become other's friend? This is false. By false pretension he is occupying big, big post and taking money for his sense gratification. That's all. This is material world. And to keep up his position he is proclaiming that "I am your friend." Just like when Nixon was being elected = "America needs Nixon now." [laughter] I have seen that signboard. And then again it became, "America needs to kick out." [laughter] This is going on. This is cheating. Both of them are cheater. Those who elected him, he is also cheater, and who became elected, he is also cheater. So this is the society of cheaters and cheated. The so-called human society means the society of the cheaters and cheated. One man is cheated, another man is cheater, and alternately he is also cheated and others are cheated. This is going on.
Dr. Gerson: Most of those who come to see me are the cheated.
Prabhupāda: And you also cheat them. [laughter]
Dr. Gerson: I hope not. I would like to show them...
Prabhupāda: They want to be cheated, and you also cheat them. Very good business.
Dr. Gerson: I would like to show them a path so that they won't be cheated any longer.
Prabhupāda: Provided you know the path.
Dr. Gerson: I'm trying to learn.
Prabhupāda: So first of all learn it; otherwise you will be cheating. If you do not know the art, and if you want to do some benefit to the others, then that is cheating. Suppose a physician, he does not know what is the medical science, and if he wants to become a physician that is cheating. Quack. [laughter]
Dr. Gerson: I hope through the study that I'm doing with the devotees and the book that comes out of it that it will help them not be cheated any longer, and show them the right way.
Bahulāśva: He is advising his patients that they should chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and come to the temple.
Prabhupāda: Then he is very nice. Then you are friend.
Dr. Gerson: Another thing I would like to do is go to Gurukula and test the children and show what NBC did was very false and unfair.
Jayatīrtha: On television they did a very bad story on Gurukula.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they're..., they cheater. He wants to cheat and get some money. That's all. Because the whole so-called human society is combination of cheater and cheated. So anyone who is acting without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is a cheater. And anyone who is thinking himself advanced without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is cheated. This is the basic principle. I mean Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness, so when we speak of Kṛṣṇa---God. Without God consciousness, everyone is cheated. And because everyone is cheated, there must be cheater. This is correlative term. If I say, "I am cheated," that means there is a cheater. And if there is a cheater, there must be cheated. This is relative term.
Dr. Gerson: NBC did an unfair story on Gurukula. They cheated. And I would like to undo that. I would like to go and show that the school is very good.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is very kind of you. But there have been so many attempts to cut down this movement, but they are cheated. They could not do so.
Dr. Gerson: May I try to help?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is your real business. In India also, they are still making so much propaganda. They are making propaganda that "These American devotees, they are CIA." [laughter] This propaganda is very strong in India, making the people against these American boys who are preaching. So this is going on. They financed one film, "Hare Krishna," that is spite against us. But still, those who are sincere, they are praising, "Yes, this is a real."
Brahmānanda: In India the effect of that film is just the opposite, that everyone is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now appreciate. Yes.
Brahmānanda: It was very popular, the chanting.
Prabhupāda: That "Hare Krishna" film at least helped us in the matter of propagating the Hare Kṛṣṇa word.
Dr. Gerson: I would like to.
Jayatīrtha: Dr. Gerson would like to publish a book that would be accepted by the scholarly circles, so that they would see that our school and our varṇāśrama system is very good for mankind.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Because one of the main arguments against the movement is that we are crazy. So Dr. Gerson, it is his specialty in determining who is sane and who is crazy, and according to his observation, the devotees here are more sane than...
Prabhupāda: So kindly write one book, at least small book, supporting this movement. That will be great service. Actually this should be supported by all sane men, it is so nice. And practically, you see, Dr. Judah has admitted that "You have converted drug-addicted hippies into servant of Kṛṣṇa and servant of humanity." That he has written, that who likes us.
Dr. Gerson: I think the data that I am collecting will support that and show it in terms that other people in psychology and medicine will be able to read.
Prabhupāda: If you read Dr. Judah's book...
Dr. Gerson: I have it, yes.
Prabhupāda: ...you will get many information. He has very scholarly presented. He has made references from so many books.
Jayatīrtha: He has been running various psychological tests on the devotees. Dr. Gerson has been using psychological tests...
Prabhupāda: What is this psychological test?
Jayatīrtha: You can explain.
Dr. Gerson: Well, there are a variety of tests, and they have to do with the kind of personality and intelligence and creativity that people in general have, and I'm finding...
Prabhupāda: Yes. This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is not dependent on any personality.
Dr. Gerson: I understand that. But what I'm trying to do is explain to the medical and psychological community in terms that they will understand, and so I'm using the tests that they understand and read.
Prabhupāda: You give him one book, that Scientific Basis of...
Jayatīrtha: ...of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. Have you read that book by Svarūpa Dāmodara?
Prabhupāda: Yes, you can give him one book. You read it.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Dr. Gerson has promised that he will read every single one of your books before he writes his book. He's very serious.
Prabhupāda: That is very kind of you. We have got about fifty books. [laughter]
Dharmādhyakṣa: He knows.
Prabhupāda: And it is increasing. Perhaps in the next two months we shall increase another seventeen books. There are seventeen books pending to be published. They have not done. So I am sitting here to see that this is published within two months. So therefore they are working day and night, the editorial department, printing department. They have got very nice arrangement for working.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Dāmodara Prabhu has taken these tests already, and maybe he can explain a little.
Prabhupāda: Test? What is that?
Dharmādhyakṣa: He's taken these psychological tests that Dr. Gerson is giving, Dāmodara Prabhu. He has already...
Prabhupāda: Who has tested?
Dāmodara: I was tested by Dr. Gerson and by his assistant.
Prabhupāda: So what did you find in him?
Dāmodara: Well, I didn't find them disturbing to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I felt that when I was doing it... For instance, the lady asked me to draw a picture of a person, so I drew a picture of Kṛṣṇa. So I felt that well, this was nice because she was seeing Kṛṣṇa. And then she said draw a picture of a house. So I tried to draw a picture of the Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma Mandir. I didn't do very well, but anyway, she was thinking about Kṛṣṇa. So I thought it was a preaching opportunity. I think most of the devotees approach it in that way.
Bahulāśva: Prabhupāda asked what you found out when you tested Dāmodara.
Dr. Gerson: Well, I haven't studied the tests yet. We're trying to test all of the devotees here in the L.A. temple, and that in itself is taking all of my time. I haven't looked at his tests.
Dharmādhyakṣa: But can you give some impressions...
Prabhupāda: But that is not the process.
Dr. Gerson: My impressions of the devotees thus far, however, are that those who have been in the movement much longer...
Prabhupāda: Because even if you find somebody diseased, still, spiritual consciousness is not hampered. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam = ahaituky apratihatā [SB 1.2.6]. Apratihatā means without any impediment. There is no checking. Just like in the Ganges water you will sometimes find the stool is floating there. But that does not mean the Ganges water has become polluted. It is practical. In Calcutta, in our childhood, I was taking bath in the Ganges with my father. Many gentlemen regularly takes bath in the Ganges. And the modern scientific method is = all the garbage, throw into the river. So we were taking bath, and here is some stool floating. So we used to drive away the stool and take bath. The stool is unable to pollute the Ganges water. You will find in India still. The advanced gentlemen... "The dirty water," they say, Ganges water. But you will find practically that anyone who is taking regular bathing in this dirty water, he is healthy. You will find. It is very healthy. No disease touches him ordinarily. Of course, the body is susceptible to disease, but generally, those who are taking regular bath in the Ganges water, they are not diseased. You will find it practically still. So as the stool floating in the Ganges water cannot pollute the Ganges water, similarly, a devotee, even if you find scientifically that he is crazy or he is diseased, that is not impediment.
Dr. Gerson: I don't expect to find it, and if I do, I understand...
Prabhupāda: No, even if you find... You cannot find it, but even if you find, that is not impediment.
Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what these tests will show is that when a person came first he was doing some drugs or some nonsense, and now that he's taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he has become so much more of a healthy and wholesome person.
Prabhupāda: That is the test. That is the real test, how we got so many devotees from the hippie group, so how they have given up all their bad habits. This is the real test.
Revatīnandana: The function of his testing is to show that, that that change takes place in a way that other scientists will accept it. That is his purpose.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. That is already admitted by educated class. Therefore they are becoming attracted.
Dr. Gerson: But there are still many who aren't familiar with the movement, and I hope to familiarize them.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is nice. Yes. But I say that even there is something wrong, it is not impediment. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. Even if you find in devotee something bad, and his behavior is not in the standard, but because he is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he has no other business, he is sādhu. Api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. He is sādhu. He is saintly man. Even if you find some defect in his character, because he is sticking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is saintly. Kṛṣṇa says. How is that, a saintly man has got some this bad character? So that answer is next verse:
na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati
"Yes, there are some defects. It is right. But it will be very soon finished." Just like you make the switch off, electric fan. So after the switch is off, still it is moving. But that movement is not real movement because the switch is off. It will stop very soon.
Dr. Gerson: Many of the defects that the tests might measure are defects that are measured against an insane society that considers itself sane. And so they aren't defects even if they show up.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you will find defects. But if the devotees stick to Kṛṣṇa consciousness principle, these defects will soon become finished.
Revatīnandana: One thing specifically he wants to do in order to counteract this propaganda against the Gurukula, which had serious impact, he wants to do some of this testing with the children in a way that is specifically done with children to show that these children are actually happy and they're developing nicely. He wanted to know if that would be permissible for him to do some testing at the Gurukula with the children.
Prabhupāda: That depends on your management, how you are raising the children. If they are Kṛṣṇa conscious, then it is all right. So far bodily defects, you might find. But we are denying from the very beginning, "I am not this body." So by finding some bodily defects, how you will decide about the spirit? Because spirit is not this body. You cannot conclude that because there are some bodily defects, therefore he has got spiritual defect. That is not right conclusion. The same example = "Because there are some dirty things in the Ganges, the Ganges is no more good," that conclusion is wrong.
Dr. Gerson: There has been a lot of bad propaganda that the children at Gurukula are unhappy and that they're not developing normally as children or human beings, and I would like to overcome that propaganda by showing that they are.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that the managers of the Gurukula, they should take care of. But if they follow the instruction which I have given for conducting Gurukula, then there is no question of... What is the general defect they are finding out?
Bahulāśva: No, they are not finding... They are just making up these defects, Prabhupāda.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing they say is that the parents are not allowing the children the freedom to choose whether they want to be trained in this way or not. They are forcing the children to be trained in a very limited view---only Kṛṣṇa.
Bahulāśva: And they say that by repetitive chanting...
Prabhupāda: That means they do not know Kṛṣṇa means everything. That they do not know.
Bahulāśva: And big professors are saying that just by reading Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam you can learn everything. All the knowledge is given in there.
Prabhupāda: That is the Vedic injunction. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti [Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3]. If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, then you understand everything.
Dr. Gerson: My observation of the children here has been that they've been very happy and that they're very involved in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: At least they can make this distinction, that our children is not smoking. [laughter]
Prabhupāda: And all the school children, they are smoking. So why don't you find this distinction?
Revatīnandana: Not only smoking, but they're smoking drugs in the school.
Prabhupāda: I have seen children, on the street, they are smoking. I was surprised. When I came in America I saw small children, they were smoking.
Revatīnandana: One devotee boy, a young boy in Laguna Beach, was telling me that in his school, when he was in high school in Las Vegas, even in the classroom the fifteen-, sixteen-year-old students were smoking marijuana in the classroom of the school.
Prabhupāda: In New York University, I think, Brahmānanda?
Prabhupāda: The students were smoking.
Brahmānanda: Yes. You were the first one to say, "Please stop smoking. Otherwise I will not speak." They were shocked. They were stunned at such a request.
Prabhupāda: So what is the psychology of this? They cannot stop smoking. And smoking is admitted, "It is injurious." So how you will do benefit? If you cannot stop the student from smoking, then how you will do him benefit? You know that smoking is bad. So even if you study from psychological point of view, and if you cannot rectify the wrong thing, then what is the use of studying? You cannot stop it. So find out the means how to stop it, and that means is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Dr. Gerson: I've started with myself. My patients are not allowed to smoke in my office.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But these general, the students... You are going to study our students, but you see they are not smoking. Why don't you see the...? [break]
Dharmādhyakṣa: ...making other people starve by eating so much meat, so in the future the other countries might force us to stop eating meat so that we can use the grain to feed people. So actually materially, economically, socially, in every way it is very bad. They are realizing now.
Prabhupāda: And they will say that because they are not eating meat, they are weak in health.
Dharmādhyakṣa: But their children are not chanting and dancing. You see? In their schools... I mean, when people come here and they see the young children chanting and dancing and so energetic, they say, "Where are these children getting their energy?"
Prabhupāda: That is real study.
Dharmādhyakṣa: So actually their children are being repressed. Their children are being enslaved. Their children are very unhappy. The karmī children, they are unhappy. They are not so lively. They don't talk as much. They don't shout and scream, "Haribol! Haribol!" Their parents always make them "Be quiet. Be quiet. Be quiet." So actually our children are free.
Dr. Gerson: In this country psychology and psychiatry has become almost like a priesthood, and people look to them for answers. And if one of the people that they take in that way---me---can give them another answer, then perhaps they'll start to turn in another direction, to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Because the psychologists, they are like the gurus nowadays. Rather than reading philosophy books or religion books, everyone is reading psychology books like this I'm OK---You're OK. It was a big bestseller. So now Dr. Gerson, he wants to inject in this psychology field... Anyone who is thinking, "Who am I?" he is reading psychology books. This is supposed to be the science of self-realization today. So they're actually more influential than philosophers.
Prabhupāda: Have they advanced about it, "Who am I?"
Dr. Gerson: So I would like to inject into this system Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that is very good idea. If the scientists, philosophers, they take up seriously then it will be good for the general mass of people. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ [Bg. 3.21]. You are recognized leaders, so if you help them to accept, that will be great service.
Jayatīrtha: Many of them admit that they are very confused, isn't it?
Dr. Gerson: Oh, yes, yes. If you put ten psychologists in a room and ask them for their opinion, you'll get ten opinions on the same subject.
Bahulāśva: Like munis. So many minds, so many ways.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam [Cc. Madhya 17.186] = "If a muni, thoughtful man, hasn't got a different opinion, then he is not muni." [laughter] And that is going on. They take it as advancement. There is no standard knowledge. You speak something, and if somebody refutes it with something else, then he is advanced. And then another comes, he becomes more advanced than the second one. And then another comes. So there is no standard knowledge. What is today standard knowledge, tomorrow it is obsolete; another standard knowledge. So in that way nobody knows what is the standard knowledge. Is it not?
Prabhupāda: But we don't follow that process. We follow one standard knowledge = that is Kṛṣṇa. That is our distinction between the ordinary scholars and our... And we are on the safe side because we don't manufacture, speculate. That is troublesome. If I have to defeat you, then I will have to speak so many things. I will have to find out the device how can I defeat you. But we have got one standard knowledge. I may be fool, rascal, but we repeat Kṛṣṇa. So our method is very easy. We are challenging everyone. Just like there are many scientific disciples. So I am not a science man. I have never studied science. But scientists, they are becoming my disciple. From material point of view, I have no education in science. But why the scientist is becoming my disciple? Is he becoming fool? After taking his doctorate title, he is becoming fool so that he is accepting me as spiritual master? Therefore the Vedic injunction is correct when it says, yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātam bhavanti [Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3] = "If you know Kṛṣṇa perfectly well, then you know everything well." That is the Vedic injunction. So unless you know Kṛṣṇa well, your knowledge is imperfect. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. Veda means knowledge. So there are different departmental knowledge. So Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvaiḥ. All departmental knowledge, when they come to the understanding of Kṛṣṇa, then it is perfect. So long he does not come to Kṛṣṇa, he is imperfect. That is confirmed in another place:
jñānavān māṁ prapadyate
vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti
sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ
Philosophy, science, means research, is it not? Research work? What do you think? Any scienti...
Jayatīrtha: Philosophy means research work.
Dr. Gerson: Yes, absolutely, yes.
Prabhupāda: Research. So by searching, searching, searching, if you do not come to Kṛṣṇa, then your searching is incomplete. That is the defect. And when you come to Kṛṣṇa understanding, then it is perfect. Then your research work is complete. That is... Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. Research work means... Actually, that is science, to find out the original source. Just like they are claiming, "The original source of life is chemical." That is not knowledge. Imperfect knowledge. The perfect knowledge is as Kṛṣṇa says. What is that? Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8] = "I am the origin of everything." So when they come to Kṛṣṇa, then he finds out the original source.
So that is possible by this research worker after many, many births---not many, many years, but many, many births. And bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19] = "After many, many births," bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān, "one who is actually advanced in knowledge, he surrenders unto Me." Why? Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti, that "Kṛṣṇa is the original cause of everything." Sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ: "Such research scholar, mahātmā, is very rare." And then He describes in the next verse that what is the symptom of these mahātmās, perfect soul. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.13] = "They are no more under the control of this material nature; they are fully under the control of spiritual nature." So what is the symptom that he is under spiritual nature, not...? Bhajanty ananya-manaso: "He is simply engaged in Kṛṣṇa." Bhajanti, "engaged in service." Bhajanty ananya-manaso: "He has no other business than to serve Kṛṣṇa." That is the symptom of a mahātmā. The Bhagavad-gītā does not say, "One who has got political business, he is mahātmā." No. Mahātmā means bhajanty ananya-manaso: "Without any diversion, simply engaged in Kṛṣṇa's business. That is mahātmā." So everything is there.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in these psychological tests the thing is not that... There's some defects. Naturally there's some defects...
Prabhupāda: There must be. Material science means defective.
Dharmādhyakṣa: But in the karmī world there are even more defects. You see?
Prabhupāda: Yes, the...
Dharmādhyakṣa: And the tests would show that in the karmī world there's more...
Prabhupāda: ...psychology is philosophy, part of philosophy. So philosophers are better than these fools, karmīs. They are accepted as ass. Karmīs are accepted as the animal ass. Why? Because the ass works day and night without any personal profit. The ass, they work very hard. You have seen ass? And he is working? In India we see very usually. It is loaded with tons of things. He cannot move. You see. And he agrees to work. And what is his benefit? He gets little grass. But the grass can be had without any working. But this rascal does not know. He agrees to work hard, day and night. So all these karmīs, I have seen in New York, they are working so hard, and they are eating only a glass of tea and a dried loaf.
Prabhupāda: Not toast even. [laughter] Dry loaf---without any taste, without any value. That also in his table. He cannot go to the... He's busy working. So this is ass. He does not think that "I am working so hard, I am earning so much money. What benefit I am taking? A glass of tea and a loaf? For this I am working so hard? I can get this without any work. Anyone will offer me this glass of tea and loaf. Why I am working so hard?" That sense he hasn't got. Therefore he is ass. Everyone you will see, they are working so hard, they have no time. But what they are enjoying? They are not enjoying even more than ordinary man. But he has no sense, "So for this much benefit I am working so hard?" Therefore he is an ass. A philosopher at least thinks that "Why shall I work so hard for this, only a glass of...?" So therefore he is a little better than these karmīs. Karmī, jñānī. And they are restless, because they are falsely thinking that they will get some benefit. They have some aspiration, ambition, for getting some benefit. The karmīs, they are trying that "I will have so much bank balance, 300,000,000's." He is satisfied to see the bank balance. Although bank balance will not go with him, but he is happy by seeing that "I have got so much bank balance." So they want bank balance only, not enjoyable life. They do not enjoy life. They want to see that "I have so much bank balance, such a high building. I possess this much." They are satisfied. That is not satisfaction. He will never be satisfied. He will want more, more, more.
So the karmī has got some demand in his heart. And the jñānī, although they are little advanced more than the karmīs, but they have also demand, that "I shall become merged into the existence of the Supreme, brahma-liṅ." That is also demand. The yogīs, they want to show some magic power and get popularity. So they have also demand. Therefore all these people who have got demands, they cannot be happy. The bhaktas, they have no demand, and therefore they are happy. They have no demand. Although the bhaktas are meant for going back to home, back to Godhead, but they don't care for it. "Whether I shall go back to home, back to Godhead, it doesn't matter. I must serve Kṛṣṇa, that's all." That is bhakta. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11] = no other desire. They want to see Kṛṣṇa happy, that's all. If Kṛṣṇa is happy, they are happy, bās. They remain in the hell, it doesn't matter. Nārāyaṇa-paraḥ sarve na kutaścana bibhyati [SB 6.17.28]. Those who are devotees, they are not afraid of going to hell. They are prepared going to hell = "All right, I shall go to hell and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Finished. I want to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So I can do it anywhere. I can do it in this corner. I can do in this building. I can do it in the aeroplane. I can do it in the hell. I can do it India. I can do it in Los Angeles, anywhere. It doesn't matter what I am or what is my position. I may simply go on chanting. That's all." This is devotee. Therefore he's happy.
So happiness is meant for the devotees, not, neither for the karmīs, for the jñānīs or the yogīs. It is the property of the devotees. Just like these devotees are chanting very happily. They are not expecting anything. They are happy by chanting. That's all. But Kṛṣṇa is unhappy if His devotees are not properly maintained. Yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. You have got Bhagavad-gītā? Teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham [Bg. 9.22]. Find out, teṣaṁ nityābhiyuktanam. [devotees look for verse]
ye janāḥ paryupāsate
yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham
ye janāḥ paryupāsate
Prabhupāda: [correcting pronunciation] Yoga-kṣemam. Yes, that's all right, yoga-kṣemam. Read.
Upendra: Translation = "But those who worship Me with devotion, meditating on My transcendental form---to them I carry what they lack and preserve what they have."
Purport = "One who is unable to live for a moment without Kṛṣṇa consciousness cannot but think of Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours, being engaged in devotional service by hearing, chanting, remembering, offering prayers, worshiping, serving the lotus feet of the Lord, rendering other services, cultivating friendship and surrendering fully to the Lord. Such activities are all-auspicious and full of spiritual potencies; indeed, they make the devotee perfect in self-realization. Then his only desire is to achieve the association of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is called yoga. By the mercy of the Lord, such a devotee never comes back to this material condition of life. Kṣema refers to the merciful protection of the Lord. The Lord helps the devotee to achieve Kṛṣṇa consciousness by yoga, and when he becomes fully Kṛṣṇa conscious the Lord protects him from falling down to a miserable conditioned life."
Prabhupāda: But that requires faith. One who does not know what is God and what is protection, how he can take to it? He depends on his own energy. That is karmīs. He wants to happy by his own energy, not only in this life but also next life, by acting very piously, wants to be promoted in the heavenly planets. That is fact. One can go. But that is on account of his own labor. But here the bhaktas, they are taken care of, the Supreme Lord. So just like child, he doesn't care how he will live comfortably. But the father takes care. That is the position of bhakta. The karmīs, they are taking care of themselves. But the devotees, they are taken care of by the Supreme. That is difference. [devotees are looking at something] What is that?
Jayatīrtha: This is the preliminary outline for the college course that Dr. Judah is going to be helping us with in Berkeley. This describes the basic purposes of the college and describes some of the courses that we'll be offering.
Prabhupāda: Our books?
Jayatīrtha: Yes. There's a course in each book.
Bahulāśva: This is what Dr. Judah belongs to, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Bahulāśva: This is a union of various theological schools. So now in Berkeley we have this very nice building, and we can become a member of this Graduate Theological Union. I have been working with Dr. Judah for about one year, and we've talked about this before. And he said that he will sponsor us.
Prabhupāda: So I shall take it.
Bahulāśva: Yes, he said that he will sponsor us in this union, and then our devotees can study just your books. Maybe they must take an English course, and that would be all we couldn't offer. Then everything else, they can study from your books.
Prabhupāda: Some way or other, if they read my books, they will be benefited. There is no doubt about it.
Bahulāśva: Yes. Then they can get a degree recognized by the state of California so they can teach in universities all over the whole country.
Prabhupāda: That I want. Do it. We want to give degrees, at least B.A., M.A., and Ph.D., according to the advancement of knowledge. And that will be very much beneficial to your country. Then America will be saved from disaster, and it will be the leader. The country will be leader of the whole world. Take this advantage.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there are some questions about exactly how to do this college. We will be licensed by the state of California; that is no problem. We can get a license immediately.
Prabhupāda: Get it.
Prabhupāda: Get it, and the, what is called, syllabus, that we shall give. We have got so many books. We shall select this book for graduate, this book for postgraduate, and these books for Ph.D.'s.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Even you have different levels. Like they can undergraduately study Bhagavad-gītā, but in graduate they can study it more intensely, like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like in general course they select some passages from some books. So we can do that.
Bahulāśva: Yes. We have laid out all your books in this style, just like at a college catalogue. This is all your literatures, and then different courses are given there, what subject matter will be covered.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We shall make a program, and it may be approved by the professors, and then we will let them study.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there's some questions here.
Prabhupāda: And there should be one practical examination---not only theoretical, but practical. This will be the chanting and following the regulative principles. [laughter] Otherwise it will not be successful. It will be successful. It will take some time. But if they take help of this practical life it will be very easily successful.
Bahulāśva: Not just reading the books, but there also must be chanting and following the regulative principles.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you will turn your America as Vaikuṇṭha. And that is your duty, to save your countrymen. I think the America is... The people were pious in their past life. They have got this opulent position. Now they should use this opulent position. They have no poverty. They haven't got to work so hard, and they take advantage of this knowledge. Other countries, they are poor. They are busy how to earn their livelihood. But your country, because you are favored on account of your previous pious activities, you should utilize this position. People are embarrassed for improving their economic condition in other countries. Of course, if one is cultured, he is not embarrassed in any condition of life. But without Kṛṣṇa culture, poverty-stricken people, they are very much hampered.
So you have no such problem. Therefore you can utilize your position, this opulent position, for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As a learned scholar you should advocate this cause. Why should you waste your time in sense gratification? That is being done by the cats and dogs and hogs. Why this life? That is also... We have described in the Fifth Canto, nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. For simply to satisfy the senses, why you should make such a gorgeous program for working? The sense gratification is enjoyed even by the hogs, the stool-eater. This particular animal is mentioned because they are gratifying senses without any discrimination. You will find the hogs eating stool, and they are with mothers and sister and have sex life, that's all. They have no discrimination. So this kind of sense gratification is there in the hog's life. So are the human beings to imitate the hog's life? This is the question.
So they are imitating the hog's life, all the human being. This is the defect. Kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. Working so hard day and night, and only sex, that's all. This is life's enjoyment? This is a hog's life. And what else they have got happiness? We challenge them, "Except this happiness of sex, what other happiness you have got?" There is no answer. So this is being done by the hogs. Whole day and night they are searching after, "Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool?" And as soon he gets the stool and they have sex, that's all. Is that civilization, hog's life? And what is civilization? That is tapo divyam: "Just undergo austerities for realizing God." That is civilization. Work very hard similarly, but for Kṛṣṇa and not for imitating the hogs.
Now, why I should be interested in..., for God realization? Yes, you should be. You must be. Why? Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattva [SB 5.5.1] = "By becoming Kṛṣṇa consciousness, your existentional constitution will be purified." What is that purification? Purīfication means because you are now impure, you are subjected to birth, death, old age and disease. Therefore you require treatment to cure this disease. Yasmād brahma-saukhyaṁ anantam. And if you cure this disease, then---you are after happiness---you will get transcendental bliss and enjoy it eternally. This is human life. Everything is discussed in the Bhāgavata, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattva yasmād brahma-saukhyaṁ anantam [SB 5.5.1]. Anantam means unlimited. You are searching after happiness, but this is limited. Even if you enjoy sex life, that is also limited for a few moments. But anantam, that is... You will enjoy it eternally. Just Kṛṣṇa is dancing with the gopīs. He is enjoying eternally. So you can join with Him. That information we are giving. Just imagine what a valuable service we are rendering. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattva [SB 5.5.1]. Your existence is impure. Therefore you are undergoing the tribulation of birth, death, old age and disease. But they are not making any research how to stop. Nobody wants to die. Why he is dying? Where is the solution? Can the psychologists give any solution, that "You think in this way"? No. That we are giving = "Think of Kṛṣṇa and you will become free."
Jayatīrtha: Jaya. Yes.
Prabhupāda: That information we are giving. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. A Kṛṣṇa conscious person, after giving up this material..., he is not coming any more with this material body. This is our philosophy. And if you again die and again come another material body, so what is the use of this education? You cannot dictate that "My mother nature, don't make me a dog next life." She is not subjected to your dictation. She is subjected by Kṛṣṇa's decision. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. She is not your servant; you are servant of the nature. So you are declaring independence, but you are servant of the material nature. That they are not thinking. Unnecessarily they are thinking independence. What is the nonsense independence? You are dependent on the laws of nature, and you are thinking independent. How much foolishness it is. This is psychology. They are wrongly thinking. How to correct them? Is it not? Are they not wrongly thinking? Everyone is thinking, "I am independent. I can do whatever I like." How much foolish he is.
Dr. Gerson: That's what psychology's been trying to teach people = to do whatever they want to do because they have the power.
Prabhupāda: That's it. But can he do anything as he likes?
Dr. Gerson: That's right.
Prabhupāda: If he... As he likes, if he infects some disease, he must suffer from the disease. Where is his independence? If you infect some disease, infectious disease, then you must suffer from the disease. That is nature's law. So where is your independence? Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya [Bg. 13.22]. It is all described. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. Why there are so many varieties of life? Because he has associated with a particular type of modes of nature and he has got the body. Without any human sense he has learned to eat anything and everything, without any discrimination. Therefore nature will give the body of a pig = "All right, you eat anything up to stool. Up to stool you can eat." So how can you stop it? And because nature has given this body, he is relishing very good taste from stool. By this body, you cannot relish what is enjoyment in the stool. But because he has no discrimination of food, nature has given him, "All right, you can eat up to stool." Human life is meant for civilization, and they are trying to be naked. So next life will be = "All right, you remain naked standing as tree for five thousand years." How can you stop it? Wherefrom these varieties of life are coming? Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu [Bg. 13.22]. This is kāraṇam, that he is associating with different modes of material nature and he is getting a suitable body. So where is that science to understand this subtle work of nature? Where is that science? Where is that education in the university? You are not free. You cannot say that "I shall live life like this." You can live, but take the risk of next life. Therefore they avoid this question, "There is no next life." That is very horrible. But that does not mean... Just like the..., what is that animal? Closes the eyes?
Prabhupāda: Ostrich. When there is danger, it closes eyes = "No danger." But that does not mean no danger. The danger is there. You may close your eyes. This is going on. The whole education system is foolish, because they are thinking independent.
Bahulāśva: Now we can change that, Śrīla Prabhupāda, with this college. We can get our men in all religious departments.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our duty, to give them knowledge. The knowledge is there. The candidates are there. Only the guardians should be sane, that "Save the children." Otherwise they will produce only hippies, that's all. [break] So long you will work on the mental plane, then the tendency will be that "Let me refute you, and I become prominent." And he will think that "Let me refute him; I become..." This business will go on. But there will be no end of philosophy. So what is the use of such philosophy, simply continually go on mentally speculating, no conclusion? Philosophy means, "Here is the conclusion."
Dharmādhyakṣa: Yes. Dr. Judah said in our whole course we can just defeat them, but we must know what they think also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that's all right. That you should know. They are advertised as big philosophers, so at least we can prove that they are not big philosophers. The big philosopher is Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Bahulāśva: The self-sufficient philosopher.
Bahulāśva: In Īśopaniṣad you say, "The self-sufficient philosopher, that is Kṛṣṇa."
Dharmādhyakṣa: Also, should this college have men and woman, or just men?
Prabhupāda: No, why? Everyone. We have no such discrimination. But not cats and dogs. [laughter] Human being. Never mind what he is.
Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Māyāpur you were speaking about you wanted Māyāpur to become a college for the University of Calcutta?
Prabhupāda: No, why Māyāpur? Everywhere. The whole educational system should be changed.
Bahulāśva: We should take it over.
Prabhupāda: Not changed. At least this will remain as a departmental knowledge.
Prabhupāda: It is not possible to make wholesale change, but at least let them accept this Kṛṣṇa consciousness as a departmental knowledge.
Bahulāśva: We were wondering if Ravīndra-svārupa could come and help on this project. Because if we can get established in Berkeley first... It's such a big university.
Prabhupāda: Yes, do that.
Bahulāśva: We could be respected everywhere else.
Prabhupāda: Do that. Whoever can help this.
Jayatīrtha: We need to have a certain number of Ph.D.'s, is it?
Bahulāśva: We need at least five.
Prabhupāda: Five Ph.D.'s?
Bahulāśva: Ph.D.'s to start.
Prabhupāda: Oh, we have got. We have got Ph.D.
Dharmādhyakṣa: We need five to be accredited. We don't need five to start, but to get accreditation.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. How many we have got?
Jayatīrtha: Ravīndra-svārupa is one, and Svarūpa Dāmodara is two.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ravīndra-svārupa is not yet a Ph.D.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Oh. How long? Another year yet.
Prabhupāda: They said, no, that they have got five, six Ph.D.'s
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mādhava.
Jayatīrtha: Richard. And Dr. Judah will be one?
Bahulāśva: If you like, Dr. Judah said he will help teaching in this?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Bahulāśva: You like, Dr. Judah said he will help?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. If he appreciates our movement, then he can become.
Dharmādhyakṣa: So what we need, Prabhupāda, is whoever has an advanced degree to come to the college and to teach.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes, yes.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Like even Dāmodara here, prabhu. He has a Master's degree.
Prabhupāda: He has already proposed that he wants to give up his service and fully work for Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Jayatīrtha: Svarūpa Dāmodara?
Prabhupāda: Yes. This... Just now we have received that letter. He doesn't like. He is now realizing, "What I am searching after, false thing?"
Dharmādhyakṣa: If Svarūpa Dāmodara could come, that would be very good.
Dharmādhyakṣa: This Dr. Gerson, he comes to āratika and he likes to chant and dance.
Prabhupāda: This doctor?
Prabhupāda: So convert him also to be a devotee. Then that is another Ph.D.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Oh, yes. He said he would love to come and teach at our college.
Prabhupāda: Very good. But he must give up his bad habits, illicit sex, meat-eating. At least they must give up.
Dharmādhyakṣa: He is giving them up. He says that he is becoming more sensitive.
Prabhupāda: If he chants, then he is purified.
Dharmādhyakṣa: He realizes this. All his psychologist friends, they are just crazy. They are not solving any problem.
Prabhupāda: So, that's all right.
Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Haribol. [end]