Room Conversation , Honolulu , 1975-06-16

Prabhupāda: ...and if you achieve this platform. And if you go high in the sky, and wherever you want to go, you feel [indistinct]. That is the practice. It is not very common practice.

Guest: Āchā.

Prabhupāda: In Bengali it is called gacchan. That woman is called, flying the tree, gacchan.

Siddha-svarūpa: Here in the West I think there’s a derivative of that. They speak of witches flying on brooms, a broomstick, that a witch can go through the air on a broomstick, or riding a broom, that they can go from one place to the next. But it is made into a fairytale, that, uh...

Prabhupāda: No, there is a science. It is called ākāśa-paṭala. And, by yogic process, without any help from any machine, I mean to say, any vehicle, you can go yourself. Just like Nārada Muni goes everywhere. He can go anywhere. That is called laghima-siddhi. Laghimā. Laghimā means you become so light that you will be carried by the air. And you can believe it. Just like your mind, you can immediately carry you thousands of miles away. So although I am sitting here, immediately I can go in my mind to Māyāpura. I am sitting in my room and talking in this way; with my subtle mind, immediately. So the mind is so speedy that in one second you can reach Māyāpura, 15,000 miles away---within a second. That is everyone knows. But the gross body cannot do that. Your mind can do it. If I want to transfer my body here immediately to Māyāpura, that will not go. But by yogic process you can do it. That is called laghima-siddhi. Yogī, real yogī, means they attain perfection in eight items = aṇimā, laghimā, mahimā, then prāpti-siddhi, īśitva, vaśitva.

Siddha-svarūpa: The Chinese, they’re very much into that. They want to develop these, the uh...

Prabhupāda: But they can’t. The meat-eaters cannot do it.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yeah, most of the ones who are into it are..., are very strict about their diet and everything...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yoga practice can be done, but very regulated.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: No sex, no meat-eating; no---not this, or this nonsence. Then you can say, he must be pure.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Any spiritual cultivation requires pure.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. They have commandments that they must follow, of retaining their sexual energy and so on.

Prabhupāda: No. They cannot do it. Because they have no... Sexual glands can be controlled only by spiritual knowledge; otherwise...

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, not perfectly. But they are trying, just like Lord Śiva...

Prabhupāda: No. Material, they cannot... It is not possible. It is only possible by spiritual. Materially you may try, but you will fall down.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. That’s it.

Prabhupāda: Now I am studying this rainbow, how certain colors are there. It is prominently there are three colors = red, yellow, blue. But I see within this blue and yellow there is greenish. Eh?

Devotees: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And between the red and yellow there is orange. And blue and orange, like that, mixed. There is violet also. In this way there are seven colors. Now, if you artist, you can mix the seven colors; in this way, you can increase coloring. And that is the way of the mixing of the modes of material nature---sattva, raja, tamas. The tamas is blue, and sattva is yellow and raja is red. Now you mix three into three, equals nine; nine into nine equals eighty-one. Therefore 8,400,000 different forms according to the mixture of these modes. The nature is so fine and accurate, different types of bodies the living entities has got on account of. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya [Bg. 13.22]. That is described. The reason, so many varieties of life, why? Kāraṇaṁ. Kāraṇaṁ means "the reason." Guṇa-saṅgo means he is associating with different grades of these mixtures of color, modes. It is very scientific.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. I’ve never heard it said like that before.

Prabhupāda: Now get me my book. Find out in Bhagavad-gītā.

Siddha-svarūpa: About the rainbow?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Siddha-svarūpa: About the rainbow?

Prabhupāda: No, rainbow, we get color from the rainbow. You cannot get anything new. Everything is there.

Siddha-svarūpa: I wondered if you mentioned the rainbow in your books.

Prabhupāda: Oh, no. Rainbow I have never. I am just sitting here and studying.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, that is what I ment, er... It made it simpler for me to understand.

Devotee (2): Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya [Bg. 13.22]?

Prabhupāda: [aside:] So, you want to give it to me?

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, he’s giving.

Prabhupāda: Let him give it to me tomorrow morning.

Siddha-svarūpa: All the mangoes that you have been gotten, he has been sending them to you.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Devotee (2): Aren’t they nice?

Prabhupāda: And we have got so many fruits. You can make it actually paradise by introducing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Let them eat sufficient fruit, and use sufficient flowers, and keep cows, get milk. Produce your own food. We will make it actually paradise. What is this note, nonsense?

Devotee (3): [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: Spoiling the Deity. But still you can do. There are so many other ideas you can develop. Actually there is no scarcity. Kṛṣṇa is so kind. He has made everything comfortable. We are rascals, simply spoiling the opportunity. Is it not? Being influenced by māyā, we are spoiling all opportunity. This is irresponsible. Kṛṣṇa has given all facilities, and we are spoiling. Spoiled child. Father, father has got money, and he is simply spoiling. This is our... The materialistic person means they are spoiled child. And misusing father’s property.

Devotee (2):

puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi
bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān
kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya

"The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil amongst various species."

Prabhupāda: You read it, Sanskrit:

kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya

Devotee (2): Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya? Kāraṇam---cause; guṇa-saṅgaḥ---association with the modes of nature; asya---of the living entity; sat-asat---good and bad.

Prabhupāda: There is not proper translation?

Devotee (2): "This is due to his association with the material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil amongst various species."

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Good and evil species. Now read the purport.

Devotee (2): Purport. "This verse is very important for an understanding of how the living entities transmigrate from one body to another. It is explained in the Second Chapter that the living entity is transmigrating from one body to another just as one changes dress. This change of dress is due to his attachment to material existence. As long as he is captivated by this false manifestation, he has to continue transmigrating from one body to another. Due to his desire to lord it over material nature, he is put into such undesirable circumstances."

Prabhupāda: Everyone is trying to lord it over. "Where is petrol. Where is this where is that?" Trying to exploit. Simply exploiting. This whole American tendency is to find out how to exploit---the colonization. They are spread all over the world, only this purpose of exploiting = how to exploit. Like this. This is material nature. They are not satisfied locally, that we have to develop our spiritual consciousness and arrange our supply of necessities locally. That is required.

Devotee (2): "Under the influence of material desire, the entity is born sometimes as a demigod, sometimes as a man, sometimes as a beast, as a bird, as a worm, as an aquatic, as a saintly man, as a bug. This is going on..."

Prabhupāda: But these rascals, they do not believe it, transmigration. Uneducated.

Devotee (3): No faith.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee (3): They have no faith.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Devotee (3): They have no faith.

Prabhupāda: The rascal may not have faith. We have no faith to become old man, does it mean that we will not become old? You are a young man. You may believe that "No, no, I am not going to be old man." Who cares for your belief? Death = kick out your faith. You are controlled under the modes of material nature. That is the fact. What is the "faith" nonsense? You may believe or not believe. That means nature will be controlled by your believing and not believing? You are rascal, nonsense. Nature will act. The child has faith that the fire will not burn. He touches fire. Then that..., that will save him? What do you think? He has no faith. He is simple. He thinks fire is as good as water. That, will..., will that faith save him, because he is child? What do you think? This "faith," "no faith" is rascaldom. It is all rascaldom. "We believe," "We have no faith," So what is... Who cares for your belief and faith? [laughter] You rascal, you may not have faith or believe, but nature will act. That is a fact.

Siddha-svarūpa: So it’s a matter of education.

Prabhupāda: Better education means to know how nature is working. Why do you believe in your faith and this and that? Nonsense. All nonsense. "We believe." They say like that = "We believe." Who cares for your belief? And who cares for your faith? That they do, that "I may have some faith. I may believe in something; I may not believe " so who cares for it? There is no question of "faith" and "believe."

Siddha-svarūpa: It’s a matter of education of the truth.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They have no education. That is the fact. Therefore they say "faith," and they describe religion as faith. Therefore the question of religion is insignificant.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Because it is a kind of faith, so now modern advanced people say that "You remain with your faith; I remain with my faith; he, she remains with her faith"---everything is lost. And faith will not save you. If you have faith that you will not become old man, that will not act. You must become old.

Devotee (2): Well, we have faith in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: That, that is another faith. That is real faith. Faith is the beginning. But not everyone... That if you have faith in the right thing, then it is good. But if you have faith in wrong thing, that will not be good. Faith is good. Without faith we cannot make progress. Is it not so? Suppose I am going to India. I am getting on an aeroplane. So I have got faith that this aeroplane will carry me to India. So without this faith we, we cannot get on aeroplane. Then you will remain here. You go to a barber, and you make your neck like this, and he uses razor. So if you have got faith that "He will not cut my throat; he will simply shave me..." So unless you have got this faith, how can you make..., be sure a certain result is coming? So that faith is required. [break] ...and every action, we must have that faith. For making advance in spiritual understanding you must have faith. That’s a fact. But if your faith is right, then it will work. If your faith is wrong, then it will not. If you have faith in Kṛṣṇa, that is right. But if you have faith to..., to Lenin or similar rascal, then that is wrong.

I have raised this question with Professor Kotovsky, that "Where is the difference between your philosophy and ours? You are keeping your faith on certain authority; we are keeping our faith on certain authority. Your Communism is dependent on the faith on Lenin, and our Kṛṣṇa consciousness is depending on the faith on Kṛṣṇa. So basic principle is the same. You have to keep your faith on somebody. Philosophy means... From a philosophical point of view, there is no difference, that all these things, the Communist, the independence movement, the same thing. The only difference is that you keep your faith on Lenin, and I keep faith on my Kṛṣṇa. Now we have to judge whether Lenin is good or Kṛṣṇa is good. But the principle is the same. You cannot go without any leader, a guru. Similarly, we cannot go without any guru. If the guru is bona fide, then I am benefited. If the guru is rascal, then I am not." This is fact. We have to keep faith on somebody. That is fact. But if our faith... Just like a child sleeps on the lap of the mother; every child has got that faith. If the mother is sinister, kills the child, then what is...? He has no other shelter. Faith is the beginning; that is all right. But if you keep your faith on perfect, then you will become perfect, and if you keep your faith on imperfect, then you will be imperfect. The process is the same. That I inquired from the Communist leaders, that "Where is the difference of process?" There is no difference. Now whether we should follow Kṛṣṇa or whether we shall follow Lenin, and that depends on my choice. But the process, the philosophy, is the same. He could not answer. That..., that he became little grave and respectful.

Siddha-svarūpa: I asked a similar question to a leader of the schools here. They were saying that "Well, we can’t let this into schools because it’s a type of faith and worship." So I was explaining that "Actually, you also have faith. Everybody has faith and worships something," and that "You are having faith in material objects and things, that that will make you happy, " that "You’re taking shelter in material objects. You are worshiping material things. You are seeking union with material things. You’re bowing down to material things. In so many ways you’re worshiping, and you’re having faith in matter."

Prabhupāda: Same process.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, same process. So it’s a matter of...

Prabhupāda: Only, one is illusory...

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: ...and one is fact.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is fact, and the matter illusion. That is difference. So Kṛṣṇa is fact, because this mango is produced by Kṛṣṇa, not by your material scientists. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is fact. And your talking is simply illusion. [break] ...so-called faith on matter cannot..., cannot help them.

Devotee (2): These mangoes would die without water.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee (2): The mangoes would die without water.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, the, the process is not under your control. That is my point. You require so many other things that you do not know it. It is the combination of the material, but the process you do not know. Do you know Kṛṣṇa? There is a process, so nice scientific process, that the taste is there in the earth, and the tree grows the taste, the color. So many nice things. Wherefrom the sugar came, and wherefrom the sour taste came? You do not know. And still you deny God. The [indistinct] system. What you can do? Similarly talk nonsense, that’s all. And we have to believe you. The same example = the tiger, lion, the big animal, and other small animals, the dogs, hogs, cats, they are afraid. So this is the position. Big animals is controlling the small animals, but both of them are animals. The so-called scientist, philosopher, religionist, without Kṛṣṇa consciousness he is a big animal, and the followers are small animals. But they are all animals. Is it not? So what is the value of animals? Do you think that because the tiger and the lion, big animal, it has got any intuition for human civilization, for spiritual advancement? The other small animals may be afraid of the big animal, but actually it has no use. Nobody keeps tiger and lion, for taking some advantage of them.

Siddha-svarūpa: They are [indistinct] give milk.

Prabhupāda: Useless.

Siddha-svarūpa: Dangerous, too.

Prabhupāda: Dangerous. Yes. It is..., it is compared with the snake with the jewel on the head.

Siddha-svarūpa: Learned men.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Siddha-svarūpa: So-called learned men.

Prabhupāda: So-called animals. Learned, learned animals. He is as good as the snake with the jewel on the head. That has been described by Cāṇakya Paṇḍita,

maṇinā bhūṣitaḥ sarpaḥ
kim asau na bhayaṅkaraḥ

[Nīti Śāstra]

A serpent, I see one serpent with jewel on the head, it is bright. That is their weakness. I shall take the serpent, and I catch him. [indistinct]. Still it is fearful. Although it is decorated with the jewel, still it is fearful. That any materialistic person may be decorated with education in academic things, it is still useless; no value. It is fearful only. Just like people are afraid to go to your lawyer, to your doctor. As soon as you go, [indistinct]. He is educated, but he will exploit you. He wants money. One big Englishman, Sir William Temple, or something he used to say, "I wish to die without the doctor." I advised some...I advise you also = when I become seriously ill---of course, anywhere I can become---don’t bring any doctor. Let me die peacefully. I don’t like these doctors. They will come, and final humiliation they will give you injection, so many injections. Why at the time of death they give injection? Is it not so? And if you forbid them to give injection, they will show, "No, it is our duty. Whatever scientifically we know, we must do it."

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So scientifically he knows how to give more trouble. The patient is already in trouble, and they are trying to give him one injection to give him more. Let him go. I have got practical example. My father-in-law’s elder brother, sick, a doctor came and gave some injection, and as soon as the doctor comes upstairs, comes down. Just after the injection, after 15 minutes [claps twice]. Now who can charge the doctor? And what is the guarantee? When death comes, no doctor, no medicine. Why don’t you just let the person die peacefully? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, let him be happy.

Siddha-svarūpa: There is a big debate on this very subject in the United States today---whether or not the doctor should continue to try to keep a person alive indefinitely. Even though he’s not conscious, they could keep him alive, barely alive, with injections and changing of blood.

Prabhupāda: That they cannot do. That they cannot do. Whether he should be given a chance---that is another foolishness. Who is..., who is that doctor who has saved a man from death?

Siddha-svarūpa: Well, they aren’t..., they haven’t perfected it yet. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: They will never be perfect, and these rascals, they go on telling. That is..., don’t be bluffed. That is, they are very expert in bluffing, and fools and rascals, they become exploited.

Siddha-svarūpa: One very rich man, his name was Walt Disney, he had..., he must have paid for, a very large sum of money, to scientists with their... Because they promised him, indirectly, that they would be able to find a cure for his illness in the future. So if they would find... Anyway, they froze his..., they froze him. Quick-freezing. They froze his body very quickly just before he died, or before he died even. He might be frozen now---I don’t know what the system, what the scene would be---but I think they froze him before he died. And with..., in this way they exploited him by getting him to pay them money with the promise, "In the future, when we get a cure, we’ll thaw you out and we’ll inject you or..., save you with this cure." So now this man, Walt Disney, who’s very famous American, he’s frozen somewhere in the United States. I don’t know where he... But in this way they must be...

Prabhupāda: Famous fool. [laughter]

Siddha-svarūpa: [laughing] Very famous fool.

Prabhupāda: There are so many rascals and fools. He is famous?

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. He is very famous.

Prabhupāda: I have never heard.

Devotee (2): [continues reading] "And in all cases the living entity thinks himself to be the master of his circumstances, yet he is under the influence of material nature. How he is put into such different bodies is explained here. It is due to association with the different modes of nature. One has to rise, therefore, above the three material modes and become situated in the transcendental position. That is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Unless one is situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his material consciousness will oblige him to transfer from one body to another because he has material desires since time immemorial. But he has to change that conception. That change can be effected only by hearing from authoritative sources. The best example is here = Arjuna is hearing the science of God from Kṛṣṇa. The living entity, if he submits to this hearing process, will lose his long-cherished desire to dominate material nature, and gradually and proportionately, as he reduces his long desire to dominate, he comes to enjoy spiritual happiness. In a Vedic mantra it is said that as he becomes learned in association with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he proportionately relishes his eternal, blissful life."

Prabhupāda: That’s all. [indistinct] [break] [end]