Room Conversation with Director of Research of the Dept. of Social Welfare , Melbourne , 1975-05-21

Prabhupāda: The defect of the Western country is practically there is no social structure. The father, mother, they divorce, and the children become careless. Most cases this is defect.

Director: Happens, yes.

Prabhupāda: I have seen many of my students, their family, whole family disrupt on account of father and mother, even in old age, divorce. I have seen Brahmānanda's mother. His father was very..., still living. Very good businessman, very nice family, good income. All of a sudden the father and mother disagreed, they divorce. The sons were somewhere; the daughters were somewhere.

Director: That's the cases we deal with. Adoption, and...

Prabhupāda: And the father married again, the mother married again. They were not happy, and the business also closed. Like that. So by one instance I can understand that how in the Western countries people become out of social structure. The root cause is godlessness. Root cause.

Director: And now divorce is getting easier too, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: That is very dangerous law, to allow divorce. Divorce should not be allowed. Even there is some disagreement between husband and wife, it should be neglected. According to Cāṇakya Paṇḍita... He was great politician. He has said that dampatya kalahe caiva bahvārambhe laghu kriyā [Nīti Śāstra]. The husband and wife's quarrel should not be taken very seriously. Ajā yuddhe muni-śrāddhe. Ajā yuddhe... Just like fight between two goats. They are fighting, and if you say "Hut!" they will go away. Similarly, the fight between husband and wife should not be taken very seriously. Let them fight for some time; they will stop automatically.

Director: Hmm. That's true.

Prabhupāda: But the husband and wife fight, and he, as soon as he goes to the lawyer, and he gives incentive, "Yes, come to the court." This is going on. So the first defect is there is divorce law. Another defect is that there is no method how to train a man to become first class. That is there in the Vedic civilization. Now of course in India that is also now abolished by degradation. Otherwise the society was divided into four classes---brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. The brāhmaṇas were first-class men, ideal. But in the society there is no ideal men. One should have some example, living example, to see, "Oh, here is an ideal man." So the ideal man is described here in our Bhagavad-gītā. What is the ideal? Any man can be trained up. Not cent percent, but even one percent man becomes ideal, the ninety-nine percent will see and follow. But there is no ideal man. That is the defect. So just like we are training them as ideal man---by character, by religion, by behavior, by education. That is the purpose of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And you can see practically what was their previous life and what they are now. So government should establish an institution to create ideal men. We can help. We can help.

Director: But it would be very difficult for the people who start out with us. Would be possible with the kids that start out with us.

Prabhupāda: No, they will live, just like they are living. They are coming from the same group. But they are now saintly. It is a question of training them. I have no facility. Whatever I have done, by personal endeavor and their cooperation. Neither your government, I mean the Western government, they helped me, neither my government helped me, although we are struggling to make class of men ideal. They appreciate, but they do not give us... Now, just like we have purchased this house by our endeavor, with great difficulty, because we have no income. We write our books, then we sell, we get some income. So somehow or other we expand. But no government is helping us. They are increasing brothels, drinking. At least in India there was no drinking propaganda. Now the government is making that. They are opening wine shop. India, even in the British period, drinking was very, very restricted. Very, very restricted. First of all socially if anyone drinks, he is rejected as gentleman. A drunkard was never respected. Similarly meat-eaters. He was considered third-class man. In our childhood we have seen, when people learned to eat meat, very secretly, not within the house. Outside the house with some Muhammadan cooker. It was considered very abominable to eat meat, to drink. And women, they were kept strictly under the vigilance of parents, father. Young girls not to mix with any young boy. If one young girl goes out of home and does not come back at night, then her life is finished. Nobody will marry her. So the father had to keep the young girls with great care. And the father was very, very anxious to find out a boy to hand it over. We have seen in our childhood. But now these things are slackened. Jawaharlal Nehru, our late prime minister, introduced divorce law. Now the society is in chaotic condition.

Director: What can you do if society wants it? Society wants it that way.

Prabhupāda: Society... that's like your child wants to go to hell. But it is not the duty of the father to allow him to go to hell. Society want... Because the society does not know, the government does not know how to uplift the position of the human being. They do not know it. They know that the animals and we are the same. They simply loiter naked, and we are nicely dressed, that's all. Finished, civilization. I remain animal, but my advancement is because I am very nicely dressed. That is the standard now. But the Vedic civilization is not. The animal must change the consciousness. He must be trained up a human being. That is... [to devotee:] You say.


śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ
kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca
jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ
brahma-karma svabhāva-jam

Translation = "Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness---these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work."

Prabhupāda: So people should be trained up.

Director: Hmm. Excuse me, what do you do this thing for? [questions devotees about their tape recording the conversation]

Amogha: It's just for our private use, that all.

Director: Yeah, that's all right. Unofficial capacity. [more indistinct comments about recording]

Prabhupāda: So immediately to solve all the problems like this is to start an institution to train four classes of men. Begin it. But there is no training. How you can expect if you allow a child to smoke from the very beginning and to commit all kinds of sinful activities, how you can expect a nice gentleman when he is grown up? It is not possible. It is possible by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. But somebody may not be induced to come and join. But if you train him from the very beginning, that is possible. Just like we have got our training school, Gurukula, in Dallas, Texas. So from the very beginning, three-years-, four-years-, five-years-old children, they are being trained up. It is not that cent percent men will be trained up spiritually. But even a small percentage ideal men there are in the society, at least people will think, "Oh, here is ideal." But there is no such facility. We are training. Sometimes people laugh, "What is this nonsense?" They criticize. These leaders of the society do not encourage. Yesterday I was talking with one priest. So about illicit sex life he said that "What is the wrong there? It is a great pleasure." Just see. We are training, we are advocating that illicit sex is sinful. Our first condition is that one must give up these four things = illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. This is my first condition before accepting. So they agree and they follow.

Director: Thats what our people do.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Director: Thats what our clients all do.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they will do. If regular institution runs on with all facility... We get so many devotees come here. After some time they become dedicated devotees. The method must be there. This is... We are increasing; our movement is not decreasing. Just like we have opened a temple here. There was no temple, but we have got a nice temple. In this way all over the world our movement is increasing; it is not decreasing. I came from India alone in New York, 1965. So for one year I had no place to stay, I had no means to eat. I was loitering practically, living in some friend's house and some friend's house. Then gradually it developed, people. I was chanting in a square in New York alone, full three hours. What is that, Tompkinson Square? Yes. You been in New York? So that was my beginning. Then gradually people came. [to devotee:] You were in some club, what is that?

Madhudviṣa: California?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Madhudviṣa: In ranch.

Prabhupāda: Ranch?

Madhudviṣa: That Morningstar?

Prabhupāda: Ah, ha, ha.

Madhudviṣa: Yes. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: [laughs] That was another brothel.

Madhudviṣa: Hippie farm. You came there.

Prabhupāda: So there, and I went there. The proprietor, the organizer, he took me there. So I think if we..., if you are serious, let us combinedly open an institution where people should be trained up how to become first class. Children should be trained up. That will make a solution.

Director: Must change society then.

Prabhupāda: No, no change. Let society what it is. We train up some children as we are doing in Dallas, and some men also. Just like we have trained them. It is possible. This is practical example. Just like you were in a den, Morningstar.

Director: Have many of your gentlemen been delinquency in your life?

Madhudviṣa: Delinquency?

Director: Yeah. Have you been involved in troubles with the law before you joined?

Madhudviṣa: Oh, many of the devotees.

Director: Have you?

Madhudviṣa: Oh, yes.

Director: You've been in trouble some, have you?

Madhudviṣa: Yes.

Devotee (1): We have one boy here who spent nine months in Pentridge. [Prison in Victoria, Australia]

Prabhupāda: This is practical. We can stop. Just like they have become saintly person. Everyone... India, they are surprised that "How you have made these Europeans, Americans like this?" They are surprised. Because in India the brāhmaṇas and others, they were under impression that "These Western people, they are hopeless. They cannot be any advanced religionist or spiritual." So when they see we have got many temples in India, that they are worshiping Deity and managing everything, chanting, dancing, they are surprised. Many svāmīs came before me, but they could not transform. But it is not I who have transformed, but the method is so nice that they became transformed.

Director: But people will say a very small percentage of the population.

Prabhupāda: No. There is no question of high percentage. I said that even a small percentage, there must be some ideal men. At least people will see that "Here is the ideal man." Just like we are having. Because they are chanting and dancing, many outsiders are coming, and they are also learning, they are also offering obeisances. And gradually they are offering their service = "Please accept me." The example is better than precept. If you have an ideal group of men, then people will automatically learn. That is wanted. But don't mind, I don't find, I mean to say, any ideal group of men. Even in the priests they are going to hospital for their drinking habit. I saw in sometimes before in a hospital, five thousand patients, alcoholic patients, priest. Priest should be ideal character. And they are advocating homosex. So where is the ideal character men? If the priestly class, they are going to hospital for drinking habit, and they are allowing man-to-man marriage and homosex, then where is ideal character?

Director: But homosexual is a sickness.

Devotee: He said it's an illness.

Director: It's an illness. It's just like a person can't see, you would punish him for not seeing. You can't punish a person for being homosexual. That our society says.

Prabhupāda: Well, anyway, the priestly class, sanctioning homosex.

Director: Pardon?

Prabhupāda: Sanctioning. They are allowing homosex. And there was report that man and man was married by the priest. In New York there is a paper, Watchtower. That is a Christian paper. I have seen in that paper. They are condemning, that priest is allowing man-to-man marriage. And they are passing resolution, homosex is passed, "All right." And in Perth you said that the students are discussing about homosex, in favor of homosex. So where is the ideal character? If you want something tangible business, train some people to become ideal character. That is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Director: What you people say what's ideal to you is not ideal to somebody else.

Prabhupāda: I am giving the example ideal character.

Director: Yeah, but that's one opinion.

Prabhupāda: No. It will not depend on opinion. Opinion... What is the value of opinion if the people are all asses? There is no opinion. One should take as it is enjoined in the śāstra. No opinion. What is the use of taking opinion of an ass? So the people are trained up just like dogs and asses, then what is the use of their opinion? If you are to enforce, you must do like this. Just like when we introduced this "No illicit sex." I never cared for their opinion. The opinion..., immediately there will be discussion. And what is the use of taking their opinion? It must be done. That is the defect of Western civilization. Vox populi, taking opinion of the public. But what is the value of this public? Drunkards, smokers, meat-eaters, woman-hunters. What is the... They are not first-class men. So what is the use of such third-class, fourth-class men's opinion? We do not advocate such opinion. What Kṛṣṇa said, that is standard, that's all. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, and His version is final. No opinion, no democracy. When you go to a physician, doctor, for treatment, the physician does not place his prescription for opinion of other patients = "Now I am prescribing this medicine for this gentleman. Now give me your opinion." Does he do that? The all patients, what they will give, opinion? The physician is the perfect person. Whatever he has written prescription, that's all right. But here in the Western..., everything, public opinion. [break]

Director: You don't think that patients have any mind of their own?

Prabhupāda: They have mind, but that is deprecated mind. Just like madman, he has got his mind, but what is the value of that mind? You are not going to take opinion of a madman. He has his mind, but he is a madman. Mūḍha. Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna [Bg. 7.15]. His knowledge has been taken away. The mind being, what is called, in disordered condition, there is no value of his opinion.

Director: And what if the brāhmaṇa starts to rule the world in their own interest?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? [break] ...is not for his own interest. For everyone's interest. That is honesty.

Director: What if he's misguided? The world changes, and since that book was...

Prabhupāda: Simply because they did not follow. Just like in India, this is the character of the brāhmaṇas that later on gradually the culture was lost since the last one thousand years, because India was subjugated by foreigners. The Muhammadans, they introduced some of their culture. Then the Britishers came. They intr... Everyone wants an interest. The Britishers, when British rule came, their Lord Macaulay's private report was that "If you want to keep them as Indian Hindu, you will never be able to rule over." So it was British government's policy to condemn everything Indian.

Director: But you said before that they didn't allow drinking, the British.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Director: It's only now that... Didn't you say before?

Prabhupāda: Yes, the British allowed. British, very carefully, because they directly did not, I mean to say, put hands on their culture. But underground. And when they are now trained up, now they are openly doing. But the training was by the Britishers. In gentleman's society there must be drinking. This was the introduction.

Director: But in Indian society, they forbid it in Indian.

Prabhupāda: Indian society, they did not know how to drink tea even. In our childhood we have seen that Britishers started tea garden. There was no tea plants before Britishers. The Britishers saw the labor is very cheap, and they want to do business, they started. Just like they are doing in Africa, so many gardens, coffee and tea. So they started, and the tea was transferred to be sold in America. They were after business. So the... Now, so much tea, who will consume? The government started a tea sets committee. All the tea garden holders, they would pay government. And road to road, street to street, their business was canvassing, preparing tea, very nice, palatable tea, and they are advertising if you drink tea, then you will not feel very much hungry, and your malaria will go away and so on, so on. And people began to drink tea. "Nice cup." I have seen it. Now they have got a taste. Now gradually, now a sweeper also, early in the morning, is waiting in the tea shop to get a cup of tea. Tea was taken in our childhood if somebody is coughing, sometimes they used to tea. That was also later on. But it was unknown. Drinking tea, drinking wine, smoking, meat-eating---these things were unknown. Prostitution. There was prostitution. Not that everyone is prostitute. Very strict.

So these things should be taken care of---at least a class of men must be ideal for people, others will see. And the training should go on, just like we are doing. We are inviting people to come to chant with us, to dance with us, take prasādam. And gradually they are becoming. The same stuff, addicted to drinking, addicted to prostitution, addicted to meat-eating, he is becoming saintly person. This is practical. You can see, what was their previous history and what they are now.

Director: But how do we reconcile the fact that our doctors tell us we should eat meat because of the protein?

Prabhupāda: That is a foolishness. They are not eating meat for the last ten years. Do you think they are reduced in their health? Rather, people say "bright faces." In Boston... One priest, I was going from Los Angeles to Hawaii. One gentleman in plain dress, he is a priest, he said, "Swāmījī, how your students look so bright?" And sometimes we are advertised as "bright faces." In Boston or somewhere the ladies were asking, "Are you American?"

Director: How would you react if somebody breaks into this place and tries to rob some of the...

Amogha: He says, "How would we react if someone breaks in and tries to rob the building?"

Prabhupāda: Rob?

Amogha: A thief. What would we do if a thief came in? In other words, would we be violent?

Prabhupāda: If a thief came in we shall punish him.

Director: You should be violent?

Prabhupāda: Why not? A thief should be punished.

Director: You would punish yourself? What would you do? Would you start attacking him?

Prabhupāda: No, ourself or anyone, a thief is to be punished. A thief has to be punished. Ourself or yourself, it doesn't matter. A thief is thief. He should be punished.

Director: What if he breaks in because he is hungry?

Prabhupāda: Who breaks?

Amogha: He says what if he breaks in because he's hungry? What if he comes in as a thief because he wants some food?

Prabhupāda: We say everyone, "Come and eat." Why he should remain hungry? We invite everyone, "Come here, eat, no charge." We don't charge. Why he should remain hungry? Let us increase this program. All hungry men of Melbourne city, come here, you take your eating sumptuously. We invite, "Come on." Why you should remain hungry?

Director: What if he's an alcoholic and he's hungry?

Devotee (1): We have a couple of alcoholics that come here, and we give them food every night.

Director: You do?

Devotee (1): Yes.

Director: Just like the Gordon House.

Devotee (1): Yes. They come. Like we have a feast every Sunday. They come and we give them food.

Prabhupāda: It requires little time to practice. Otherwise, it is open for everyone for reformation.

Director: But you would have your limitations how far you can go in feeding people.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Amogha: He says we would have our limitations in that how many people we could feed.

Prabhupāda: We can feed unlimitedly, provided the government helps.

Director: You could form... You could make a place where people, destitute people, could come and have a free meal.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, oh, yes. Everyone, we open to everyone. You come and take prasādam.

Director: Could the government, in a word, use you...

Prabhupāda: No, we cannot be used by the government. We can use the government. Government cannot dictate us. That will not help.

Director: Just a moment. Just a moment. It is the fact that we have a lot of destitutes to look after, and you feel your religious order would like to help people. If the government subsidizes you to provide these services...

Prabhupāda: That we can do.

Director: That you can do. As long as they don't contradict your...

Prabhupāda: No. Our principle is this.

Director: I mean a lot of church organizations taking children and...

Prabhupāda: You can see one day. If you kindly come early in the morning and stay one day, you see our activity, how nicely we are doing. And then do the needful.

Director: I don't come here as a person. I'm representing my department.

Prabhupāda: No, whatever it may be...

Director: The fact what you convince me or not is... Society should... I can only say that we're dealing with very poor people. We tell them what you're doing, and then I say if something can be combined. Or I can say to the minister that it emerged and it goes on from there. And I can go back to my other duties.

Prabhupāda: Then they can give us some contribution per capita for taking care. Then we can invite. We can increase the accommodation. Now we are doing. We have no business, no income. We are selling our books. So our income is limited. Still, we invite anyone, come. But if government encourages us, then we can increase the program.

Director: Yeah. [audio tape crosstalk] Of course, it's a political decision. I can only say...

Prabhupāda: It is above politics.

Director: From your point of view, but we in the department depend on political decisions.

Prabhupāda: Yes, the department means they are another set of...

Director: Yes, that's just an instrument of public will. The minister is elected according to public will in our society.

Prabhupāda: Because they have made a department, just like your... What is the department?

Devotee: Social Welfare.

Prabhupāda: Social Welfare. So if they find social welfare, why not help? Why they bring politics? If actually there is social welfare here, why they should not support it?

Director: Yeah, well you're right. But in our society, minister is elected to carry out certain policies---not what he wants, but what the people sort have voted. And they are taxed to support this.

Prabhupāda: If your policy is social reformation...

Director: Social reform is not our policy.

Prabhupāda: Then, social welfare.

Director: Just to look after those who are in trouble. That's our policy.

Prabhupāda: Well, everyone is in trouble. At the present moment even the ministers are in trouble.

Director: Yes, but that is not what our function is. Everybody's in trouble. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: "Physician, heal thyself." You see? They are also drunkards, they are also woman-hunters, meat-eaters and gambling, that's all. They require to be rectified.

Director: But you can't help that. You have to go and change society, then society tells us to act differently.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Unless you change the society, how you can make social welfare? If you keep them as it is, then where is the question of welfare?

Director: Give it a different interpretation to the word.

Prabhupāda: Inter... How the...? I don't...

Director: Does he understand me?

Prabhupāda: Basically, basically one must be first-class ideal man. That is wanted.

Director: That's why it's so very difficult. You have to work on your own, and you have to see that you're fit for the work. If you can convince enough people to...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Our own program, it is not vox populi. You find out fault with us.

Director: What?

Prabhupāda: You find out what is our fault.

Director: I don't say any fault.

Prabhupāda: Then you can disagree. But when you see everything is nice, how you will not accept it? Unless you are biased.

Director: Of course I'm biased. I've been brought up differently.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like our...

Director: Just as you're biased against my life.

Prabhupāda: No, we are not biased. Just like... We are not biased. We are allowing. We say that if you want to be first-class man, then you must not commit sinful activities. That is our propaganda.

Director: But I, as a public servant, I'm not here to change society.

Prabhupāda: But we are also public. We belong to the public. You must become our servant also.

Director: Yes. What?

Prabhupāda: We are public, members of the public. So you should become our servant also, if you are public servant. [laughter]

Director: A public servant is, in our philosophy, is a man who serves a minister elected by the people, and this way he serves the public. And what the public decides, he accordingly.

Prabhupāda: Therefore we are reforming the public. They select a man...

Director: Yes, that's what I mean. When you reform the public, then you cannot take differently.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So the public select a president, Nixon, and they became disturbed, again drag him down. This is going on.

Director: Yes, but that is how society works. You must want society to change, and we have to change. I just do what I'm asked to do. Otherwise I lose my job.

Prabhupāda: No, if you actually want to do some social welfare, then you must take this standard formula. And if you manufacture your own way, that will never be successful.

Director: I might agree with you that if all of us will be Kṛṣṇa...

Prabhupāda: Not whole. We don't...

Director: Then we would be..., then social welfare would mean something different.

Prabhupāda: Now, just like we are proposing here. I am not proposing---Kṛṣṇa says---that one must be peaceful. So how to become peaceful? If his mind is always disturbed, how he can become peaceful?

Director: You're quite right.

Prabhupāda: So that is the secret of success. You want to make the people peaceful, but you do not know how to make him peaceful. So therefore you have to adopt this...

Director: Yes, you have a competitive society.

Prabhupāda: We say that you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, eat here sumptuously, live here comfortably, and you become peaceful. It is guaranteed. If anyone, even a madman, agrees to these three principles, that let him chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, take whatever nice foodstuff we prepare, take, and live peacefully, he will be peaceful.

Director: What's your answer that such a small percentage of the population, tiny percentage of the population, accept the philosophy that...

Prabhupāda: No. Tiny percentage... Just like there are so many stars in the sky, and there is one moon. In percentage the moon is nothing. If we take percentage of the stars, the moon is nothing. But moon is important than all the nonsense stars. [laughter] But if you take percentage, he has no percentage vote. But because he is moon, he is important than all these rascal stars. This is the example. What is the use of taking percentage of the stars in the presence of moon? Let there be one moon, that is sufficient. There is no question of percentage. One ideal man. Just like in Christian world, one ideal Lord Jesus Christ.

Director: How do you feel about Mao Tse-tung?

Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that?

Amogha: He says how do you feel about Mao Tse-tung?

Director: In China he's the ideal man.

Amogha: He's a Communist.

Prabhupāda: His ideal is all right. His ideal, Communist idea, that everyone should be happy, that is good idea. But they do not know how to make ev... Just like they are taking care of the human being in the state, but they are sending poor animals to the slaughterhouse. Because they are godless, they do not know the animal is also a living being and the human being also living being. So for the satisfaction of the tongue of the human being the animal should be cut throat. That is the defect. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. One who is learned, he is equal to everyone. That is learned. "I take care of my brother and I kill you," that is not right. That is going on, everywhere. Nationalism. Nation... National means one who has taken birth in that land. But the animal, poor animal, because they cannot make any protest, send them to the slaughterhouse. And if there were ideal men, they would have protested, "Oh, why you are doing this? Let them live also. You live also. Just produce food grains. The animals can also take, you can also take. Why should you take animal?" That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Director: But where the winters are long, people have to kill animals to have something to eat over winter.

Prabhupāda: Well, but you should have... I am not speaking for India, Europe. I am speaking the whole human society. Just try to understand.

Director: People started eating meat because in winter they had nothing else to eat.

Prabhupāda: No, you can eat meat, but you cannot eat meat by killing your father and mother. That is human sense. You are taking milk from the cow; it is your mother. You take milk, that in Australia they produce so much milk, butter and everything. And after it is finished, cut the throat and make business, send to other countries. What is this nonsense? Is that humanity? Do you think?

Director: Well, say two hundred years ago people, to survive the winter, had to kill the...

Prabhupāda: No, no. You take your mother's milk. You take your mother's milk, and when the mother cannot supply milk, you kill her. What is this? Is that humanity? And nature is so strong, for this injustice, sinful, you must suffer. You must be prepared to suffer. So there will be war, and wholesale will be killed. Nature will not tolerate this. They do not know all these, how nature is working, how God is managing. They do not know God. This is the defect of the society. They do not care what is God. "We are scientists. We can do everything." What you can do? Can you stop death? Nature says, "You must die. You are Professor Einstein, that's all right. You must die." Why the Einstein and other scientists, they do not discover a medicine or process, "No, no, we shall not die"? So this is the defect of the society. They are completely under the control of nature, and they are declaring independence. Ignorance. Ignorance. So we want to reform this.

Director: Well, I certainly wish you luck.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Director: I wish you luck.

Prabhupāda: Hmm, thank you.

Director: As a public servant that you reform society as your life. To carry out the instrument of society.

Prabhupāda: So kindly cooperate with us. This is... Try to learn the philosophy, and you will be surprised how nice philosophy it is.

Director: I'm quite sure.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So we don't count for percentage. Let personally become ideal man. The same example = there is no percentage in comparison to the stars and one moon. What is the percentage? There are millions of stars. It is... What is the percentage, one in million? It is practically zero percentage. But still, because it is moon, it is more sufficient than all these small stars. So produce moon.

Director: Yes, but that moon is big, and you can recognize it, but another man, just another star...

Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. If you cannot make as good as moon...

Director: Pardon?

Prabhupāda: You cannot make, but it is possible if they are ideal men.

Director: I know what you're saying, but a person would ask you, you're just a man like me, how, you know... It's not just as a star..., that your opinion, just like me...

Prabhupāda: No, if you approve this method you can cooperate in so many ways. First of all you have to see what is this method, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That we are prepared to serve you, to convince you, the first-class nature of this movement. Now if you are convinced, try to cooperate. And induce other leaders. You are also one of the leaders. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ [Bg. 3.21]. If the leaders of the society become compassionate with this movement, others will automatically follow, "Oh, our leaders, our minister is supporting this. Our..."

Director: Our minister regards himself as a servant of the people, who can be kicked out in...

Prabhupāda: That is the defect. The people are rascals, and they have elected another rascal. [laughter] That is the defect.

Director: But that's how it is.

Prabhupāda: So what can be done? Then hopeless.

Director: Well, you can work on the...

Prabhupāda: But we are going without depending on these rascals. We are going on. We are publishing our books, we are making our movement, we honestly trying. That's all. That we are doing all over the world.

Director: All we can do is allow you to convince the population differently.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we are doing.

Director: And when you do that, then social welfare...

Prabhupāda: Now suppose if we instruct a man, "Please do not have illicit sex." Have you got any objection?

Director: Pardon?

Prabhupāda: If I advise somebody that "Do not have illicit sex," have you got any objection?

Director: Yes, I have...

Prabhupāda: You have illicit... If I say...

Director: I like sex, and my wife likes sex. We just enjoy. We couldn't live without it. Our marriage is happier because we have sex.

Prabhupāda: Just see. [chuckling] This is the position.

Director: That is the position. We are both...

Prabhupāda: So how they have accepted? [referring to devotees]

Director: I don't know. I don't know. But I couldn't. Our life is enjoying sex, and our marriage is happier with sex.

Prabhupāda: No, we don't prohibit sex. But we prohibit...

Director: ...but don't have two children...

Prabhupāda: ...illicit sex.

Director: Well, we use the pill, or use contraceptives, use all kind of things. Because it makes our...

Prabhupāda: Why do you use contraceptive?

Director: Because don't want any more children.

Prabhupāda: Then why don't you stop sex?

Director: Because we like sex.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Director: Because we enjoy it.

Prabhupāda: That means you go to physician, "I want to do everything I like; still I want treatment." This is the position. You want...

Director: I didn't come for treatment. [laughter] You asked me about my...

Prabhupāda: No, no, I say... [laughs] No, no, you have come for treatment here because you have failed to control the society, your activities; therefore you have come here, treatment. But when I prescribe medicine, you don't accept.

Director: I haven't come for treatment.

Prabhupāda: No... Yes. Otherwise why you come?

Director: I was invited.

Prabhupāda: Just to help you in your social activities, social welfare activities. To take some suggestion from us. But when we give the suggestion, you reject it. That is your position. You have come here to take some suggestion so that you can make your activities very nice, but when we suggest, you reject it.

Director: I'm two people---I'm myself and I'm a public servant.

Prabhupāda: Any, anyone. That is the position. For treatment we go to a physician, and the physician prescribes medicine, you reject it. So how you will be cured? That is the position. When the prescription is given, you want to put it in the votes of other patients. What the patient will know about the prescription? They are patients. There is no question of...

Director: If I would come here and want to join your movement, I would accept it.

Prabhupāda: No, you join or not join, you have come here to consult us if we can help your activities. But when we prescribe, you do not accept it. That is your position.

Devotee: He has to go now, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Give him prasāda. Just wait. So to..., actually to make the whole human society happy, this God consciousness movement must spread.

Director: Well, I'll certainly report back. Thank you very much for seeing me.

Prabhupāda: Just little wait.

Devotee (2): We have some nice foodstuffs which we're just preparing to [indistinct].

Director: It's part of the...

Devotee (3): Yeah, yeah. It's a custom. Śrīla Prabhupāda said to give prasādam to everyone.

Prabhupāda: It is our custom that if anyone comes, he should be offered a nice seat and given some eatables. Yes.

Director: How long will you be staying in Melbourne?

Prabhupāda: I am going day after tomorrow.

Director: Have you seen many people in Melbourne?

Prabhupāda: They are daily one or two gentlemen, like you they are coming. But they find our prescription very strict. [laughter] And... But we are not going to change it. We are not after vox populi. That is not our concern. We have got our standard method.

Director: Yeah, sure. I believe that you should have these standards if you want them, if anybody wants them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is making us successful. We do not make any compromise.

Director: Pardon?

Prabhupāda: We do not make any compromise. This is our method. If you like, you take it. If you don't like, you go away. Don't mind.

Director: If you can convince the society to change, then the public servants will change.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we are in the society, we are inviting everyone. They are coming. They are coming. Gradually they are becoming converted to this.

Director: When will you be coming back to Melbourne?

Prabhupāda: Next January.

Director: Come again so often. About a year or so.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So I am going, but I..., only hopeful on these young boys. They will do. Take the whole plate. Take the whole plate. It is fruit, it is very nice. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam [Bg. 9.26]. This is meant for human being, the fruits. The tigers will not eat the fruits. The tiger, canine teeth, they will not like. We have got different teeth for eating fruit.

Director: It's very nice and sweet.

Prabhupāda: So we have got food grains, we have got fruits, we have got milk. By combination of milk and food grains we can prepare so many nice palatable, full of vitamins. Why we should kill the animal? Let the animal live, and take it's milk and prepare nice food, full of vitamins. Milk is nothing, conversion of blood. So why do you take the blood by killing? Take the blood in a different form, milk. This is our program. Let the animal live peacefully, and if you are meat-eaters, let the animal die and you eat. There will be no charge for it. The meat-eaters, let us keep some animal, take milk, and when it dies naturally, you call the meat-eater, "Please take this." You take the skin free, you take the bones free, you eat meat. Just wait for the death. It will die, after all. That much concession I want. But let the animal live without any fear of being killed, so it will supply more milk. Suppose if you know that I am keeping you here for killing. Will you be very happy? Your mind will be always disturbed. We cannot get good service from you. So animal also understands that "They are going to kill us." Therefore you don't get sufficient milk. But when they are assured that they will not be killed, they will give double milk. They do not know the psychology. This is going on.

Director: Thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: And if you want to eat meat, let it die. That is our program. If you like, you can accept. Thank you very much. Jaya.

Director: Thank you. [leaves]

Prabhupāda: This is the disease. They want to keep the poor girls free for prostitution so that they can enjoy. This is his main point. He has admitted. Keep the young girls free, they have also sex desire, and this man enjoy. This is the whole basic principle here in the Western world.

Paramahaṁsa: This man, he was of a very ripe age, and still he was saying that...

Prabhupāda: Yes, the ripe is..., up to the point of death one is sexually inclined. Up to the point of death. There was a minister of Agwar[?]. I have told you this story? Yes. At the point of death he was looking to the young girl. That is natural. Unless one is trained up, that is natural. That is māyā's entrapping machine to keep the living entity within this material world.

Śrutakīrti: Sometimes the youth, when we offer them Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they say, "When I get older I won't be so attached to this enjoyment, so then I can take it up."

Prabhupāda: They generally think so, but that is not possible.

Śrutakīrti: That is not the fact.

Prabhupāda: In Paris very, very old men, seventy-five years, eighty years old, they are going to the nightclub, paying $50 entrance fee, then they spend money for woman, wine. And few hours they stay there and come back. They are all old men. It is very difficult job, but still, by Kṛṣṇa's grace, you are accepting this principle. That is a great mercy of Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise it is very, very difficult. One old man... I told you that Marquis of Zetland? In London? So he proposed---one of my Godbrothers went---"Can you make me brāhmaṇa?" "Oh, yes. You give up this habit." "Oh, that is impossible. That is impossible. This is our life." So in the Western countries that is the life = to have illicit sex, meat-eating, drinking and gambling. There are organized clubs, brothels, hotels, only for this. People are accepting this principle, young boys like you. It is Kṛṣṇa's mercy on us. Otherwise it is impossible.

Devotee (2): These old men, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they're trying but they cannot enjoy very much any more.

Prabhupāda: Unless they enjoy with Kṛṣṇa, it is impossible.

Devotee (2): But they are not finding it so pleasurable as young men?

Prabhupāda: And how we are finding pleasure in chanting and dancing? It is a practice.

Devotee (2): No, I mean sex life.

Prabhupāda: Sex life we are not stopping. But sex life allowed only to the gṛhasthas, householder, restricted. Not illicit sex. We are not stopping sex life. Sex life is required. But under rules. And if you enjoy illicit sex, then the whole society is spoiled. You make the innocent girls spoiled. And they have no other business than prostitution. That means you put the society into chaotic condition. The young girls, they become cheap, you enjoy, then you become irresponsible. You have no family encumbrances, and you do not know how to maintain the family. That is the position. Why this welfare? Because the young boys enjoy the young girls and they get children, the government has to support.

Paramahaṁsa: That's the cause of this whole problem.

Prabhupāda: Yes, the welfare department is for that purpose only.

Paramahaṁsa: And he's the head of the department.

Prabhupāda: He also does the same thing. He does not know how to cure it.

Paramahaṁsa: He said that "I could not live without illicit sex life."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Mostly they remain the bachelor daddy. They pose themself as bachelor, but they are having at least three times sex with contraceptive method, you see. This is going on. And they have accepted as standard. And if you want to reform it, then... It is voluntary. The whole basic wrong is they have become godless animals, that's all. The only method is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no other, second method. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ [SB 5.18.12]. You cannot raise anybody to high qualities unless he is Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is a subtle fact. And example is there. Because some of them have taken to Kṛṣṇa conscious, they are ideal. All others, what is the value? He is a leader, and he says, "Yes, illicit sex is all right. We are enjoying by contraceptive method." If the leaders do something wrong, the others will follow. [to devotee:] Come here. I think you should continue as a gṛhastha for the time being.

Devotee: Yes, I think so.

Prabhupāda: Unless you are ripe old age, at least up to fifty years. What is your age now?

Devotee: Um, twenty-eight.

Prabhupāda: Twenty-eight. So up to fifty years you remain gṛhastha and take care of wife, children. Work honestly and attend the... You prove an ideal gṛhastha. That will be very nice. Don't change your mind.

Devotee: So they'll be able to take care of the situation there by themselves?

Prabhupāda: Who?

Devotee: In Hong Kong?

Prabhupāda: They are taking. Pañcadraviḍa Mahārāja is there. He is a sannyāsī. That is all right. You don't change your mind. You are already trained up about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so you try to become an ideal householder in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because we are not rejecting householders. We are accepting everyone. Gṛhe vā thāke hā gaurāṅga bole ḍāke. Anyone, either he remains as a sannyāsī in the forest or he remains a gṛhastha at home, if he is cultivating this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mercy, then he is all right. That is the verdict. So now you are living as a gṛhastha. Live as an ideal gṛhastha. Don't change your mind. Be fixed up. They are all gṛhasthas, all these Pañca-tattva, you see? Advaita Prabhu was a gṛhastha. He did not take even sannyāsa. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu also was married. Nityānanda Prabhu was gṛhastha. They were all gṛhasthas, but ideal gṛhastha. So you become an ideal gṛhastha. That also wanted. Gṛhastha is also called āśrama, gṛhastha-āśrama. As sannyāsa is called āśrama, similarly gṛhastha is called āśrama. Anywhere cultivation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is going on, that is āśrama. Now it depends on my personal convenience either I remain as gṛhastha or I be a sannyāsī. But when you have accepted the gṛhastha life, so that's all right. Remain at least for fifty years. Then you can give up when your children are grown up. You just give them education, settle them, then you can leave home. That is gṛhastha-āśrama.

So, we shall... That's all. [end]