Morning Walk in the Botanical Gardens , Melbourne , 1975-05-20

Śrutakīrti: The following is Śrīla Prabhupāda's morning walk in the Melbourne Botanical Gardens on May 20th, 1975. [break]

Prabhupāda: [indistinct] ...here.

Paramahaṁsa: Not too many flowering varieties.

Prabhupāda: Huh? No, not speaking of flowering. I mean to say varieties, plants and creepers, two millions. Lakṣa-viṁśati. Ten lakhs equal to one million, and viṁśati, twenty lakhs.

Hari-śauri: There was one newspaper article in the paper I was reading. They were advertising a new book about the evolution of man. And they were saying that there was approximately two million varieties of life on this planet. This was the calculation of the scientists.

Prabhupāda: Two millions? No, 8,400,000.

Śrutakīrti: You were saying the other day that all the species of life are mentioned in the Padma-Purāṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śrutakīrti: They're all given account of.

Prabhupāda: They have given separate account, or only on the total?

Hari-śauri: Only approximation.

Śrutakīrti: An estimate. [break]

Hari-śauri: ...a drawing of this so-called missing link between the evolution from ape to man. They have given one drawing of a species looking like a man but hunched like an ape. And they're claiming this is...

Prabhupāda: Where they have got it?

Hari-śauri: ...this type of personality was existing millions of years ago. [break]

Amogha: Of the 400,000 human species, what is the distinguishing characteristic that makes one different from another? How could we recognize them? Or could we?

Prabhupāda: You have not seen varieties of men?

Amogha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then, what is the...

Amogha: Well is it divided by country, or within one country there are many species?

Prabhupāda: You are taking of country, but the śāstra takes of the planets, not of the country. Your idea is very crippled = "country," "national." But śāstra is not... There is no such thing as national. They take the whole universe as a whole. They consider from that angle of vision. These crippled ideas, "state," "national," has come later on. There was no such thing previously. One planet or universe, like that. Just like last night the girl was astonished that "How this planet can be governed by one king?" It was being actually done. And the whole universe is being governed by Brahmā, one person. So one must know how to govern.

Devotee (1): We can see, Śrīla Prabhupāda, by the distribution of wealth and minerals in each loka, in each planet, it is meant to be governed by one ruler. One place there is gold, one place grain to grow. Is this true?

Prabhupāda: No. Everywhere there is everything, maybe proportionately in different quantities.

Hari-śauri: Is that governing that Brahmā does in the universe, he does that in relationship with all the other demigods, like they are departmental heads? So he is not personally directing every single thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he is given in charge. Just like we have got different GBCs for different jobs. Similarly, they are doing their duty nicely. All these planets are the different residential quarter of different demigods. They are controlling the whole universal affairs. In comparison to them, this human being is nothing. We are controlled; we are not controller. That they do not realize. The modern civilization, they do not realize. Although they are being controlled they do not recognize it. That is the defect. [aside:] This way?

Devotee (2): Yeah.

Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if the human form is insignificant compared to demigods, but still, it is very much desired, this human form of life, even by the demigods?

Prabhupāda: Yes, because very good chance of realizing God in the human form of life. Just like difference between Western countries and India. India, a very quick chance of realization of God. The atmosphere is so nice. So this planet is good for God realization, and the best place is in India.

Hari-śauri: Our temples, they are considered to have the same atmosphere?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Hari-śauri: To be just as potent as the holy places in India?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You can create that potency anywhere within this planet.

Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were saying yesterday that the rains, by the rains all good things come, and the rains come because of good yajña. So in this planet everybody is meat-eating, or in this country everybody is performing sinful activities.

Prabhupāda: Therefore it is decreasing. The more you are becoming sinful, the rain will decrease.

Devotee (3): So it is decreasing now.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And at the end there will be no rain. Then this whole planet will be ablaze with fire. That is the beginning of destruction. Everything will die---all trees, plants, animals, everything. It will be made into ashes by the fire. And then there will be rain, and the ashes will be melted, and the whole universe will be finished.

Devotee (2): I read, too, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that in the time of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira there was only rainfall in the nighttime. Is this true?

Prabhupāda: Nighttime?

Devotee (2): Rain would fall in the nighttime so that...

Prabhupāda: No. Who said that nighttime?

Śrutakīrti: It mentions in Kṛṣṇa book that in the evening it would rain.

Devotee (2): So as not to disturb the activity of the inhabitants through the daytime.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the way. If nighttime it rains and daytime there is sunshine, then the land becomes very fertile to produce. Yes. There is a common saying in Bengal, dine jal rātr e tā rā sei janme sukha dhā rā[?]. If it rains heavily during daytime and at night you see the stars, then you should know there will be scarcity of rain. There will be scarcity of rain and scarcity of food grains. Best thing is at night there must be heavy rain, and daytime, there should be sunshine. Then the field will be very fertile.

Hari-śauri: Is the irregularity in the weather and...

Prabhupāda: That is due to sinful life, irregularity.

Hari-śauri: So if we increase the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement...

Prabhupāda: Then it will be regular. It is nature's punishment. You may not care what is sinful life, but that is recorded. That is foolishness. "I don't care for God, don't care for what is going to happen," that is foolishness. People, lower planetary system, they are like that. In this planet also. In Western countries there are many places = "Don't care for anything, what is sinful life, what is going to happen. Let us enjoy, that's all." This is their philosophy. "Let us enjoy, that's all." Materialistic point of view is like that. They do not know that we are eternal and we are responsible for our activities. That is knowledge. But they have no knowledge. They simply want to enjoy. They do not care for death also. Simply sense gratification. That's all. This is called dānava, dānava life. The scientist explain for so many varieties. They accept there are varieties. Why there are so many varieties of life?

Hari-śauri: They were simply approximating. They said from recent discoveries and examination of fossils, and like this...

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Hari-śauri: ...they made their calculation.

Prabhupāda: Why there are varieties?

Amogha: They say originally there was just a cell, and by adaptation in some circumstances, one kind would live and another would die. So all these varieties adapted to different conditions.

Prabhupāda: Who adapted this? Who managed?

Amogha: Well, they just... Accidentally.

Prabhupāda: Ah, that is nonsense. Nothing happens accidentally. That is nonsense. There must be some arrangement. What is happening accidentally? Why you are taking care of these trees? So many things. Nothing is done accidentally. You do not see the cause. If accidentally one can become rich, why you are struggling so hard to become rich? Why their motorcars are flying whole day and night, here and there? Why you are trying? Let accidentally money come, and sit down. Why do they not do that? If accident is there, let accident come and I will become rich man. Why they try? Why they go to the college? Let accidentally you become M.A., Ph.D. This is all rascaldom, simply poor thought. Poor thought. If things happen accidentally, why you are trying? What is the answer?

Amogha: Well, we try, but---we have to try---but we can't tell what's going to happen. So it's happening accidentally when we try. Just like in school we have to try, but maybe we will become promoted.

Prabhupāda: No, if you believe in accident, then you should not endeavor for anything. Nothing happens accidentally.

Hari-śauri: Well, then could not we say that by man's activity, then, things are happening? I had one letter from a person I used to know, and...

Prabhupāda: Activity plus sanction of God---two things. There are five causes = the activity, the place, the proportion of energy and, ultimately, sanction by God. Then things happen. Otherwise there is no question of accident. Accident can happen by the will of God. That is also... Behind that accident, there is will of God.

Hari-śauri: So if God is forgotten, then we are simply struggling because...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: ...we are thinking that we are the controller.

Prabhupāda: We are wrongly directed. [break] ...described as mūḍha, asses, who does not take instruction from God and thinks that things will happen accidentally.

Devotee (1): Prabhupāda, is this philosophy like karma-mīmāṁsā, which is described in the Kṛṣṇa book? Is this the same principle, where they feel that simply by their endeavor things will come, without the sanction of God? Is this karma-mīmāṁsā?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, karma-mīmāṁsā. [break] Now, if you do good, good result will come. So sometimes it so happens that a person doing very good, still, good result will not come. Is it not?

Devotee (1): That's true.

Prabhupāda: Yes. [aside;] Which way? [break]

Hari-śauri: Their argument is, then, if God is there and He is actually the ultimate controller, and He is motivating everything to happen, then I can just sit back and do nothing and things will happen.

Prabhupāda: No, you should work for the result. Karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana [Bg. 2.47]. But do not think that because you working very nicely, the result will come. That is the... Because it is not in your hand. Therefore, karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana. Your duty is to go on working, but don't expect the result as you desire. That will never happen unless it is sanctioned. Just like a man is suffering. Your duty is to appoint nice physician, nice medicine. But is there any guarantee that he will live? Why does he die? You can say that "I have given the best medicine and best medical treatment," still, he dies. What is the cause? What do they say? What is the cause?

Amogha: Perhaps they didn't know the right... [break]

Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the force comes? Why they don't inquire? Why do you say that sometimes you are forced to commit mistake? So why don't you inquire wherefrom the force coming? Did you inquire that?

Devotee (2): I tried to, Prabhupāda. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: The force means there is Supreme, He is forcing. Without His sanction, you will be forced to commit mistake.

Hari-śauri: That force is kāma, lust?

Prabhupāda: No, force is there---God's desire, or supreme will. You are trying to do something, you are trying your best. You are employing your full energy and all the means. Still, it is not done. Therefore the force is coming from God. Otherwise how you will explain? What is the explanation, that you endeavor, you did all that is possible by you, still, the result did not come? So how you will explain?

Hari-śauri: You must accept God.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (1): They try to make God their order-supplier. And when the supply does not come, they say there is no God.

Prabhupāda: God is not order-supplier. Otherwise everyone is praying. Just like in the last war, everyone went to church and prayed for saving the life, mostly woman, because all men in Germany especially, everywhere, they went to the war front. So all the women, they went to the church for praying for their husband, for their brother or father. But nobody came back. And later on, they became atheist = "Oh, there is no God." Because God did not supply their order, therefore there is no God. "If God agrees to my proposal and He supplies things as I want, then there is God. Otherwise there is no God." That means God is under my condition. This is going on.

Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, there was one song written where the writer said that the reason the Americans won the war was because God is on their side.

Prabhupāda: So that is a fact. Unless God desired, how they can win? That, we admit that.

Hari-śauri: But now they are again becoming a mouse, the Americans? Now they are losing the favor of God?

Prabhupāda: No, they write officially = "We trust in God." [break] ...the whole, I think, Americans are fortunate because this saṅkīrtana movement is there. Yes. If they take it more seriously, they will be actually favored nation of the Lord.

Hari-śauri: At the present moment it seems that the Communist movement seems to be taking over more and more countries.

Prabhupāda: They will take, because people are becoming godless. That is the defect. People are becoming hippies, godless. This material world is full of miseries because most people are godless. Here... Material world means avoiding God. That is the sum and substance of material world. They are trying to avoid, becoming independent of God. That is their endeavor. The scientist, the philosopher, the politician---everyone is trying that. Therefore they are suffering. Māyā is there. Just like a criminal, if he says, "I don't care for government," the police will take care of. That is certain.

Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, if someone has inquired about God, but can be so overpowered by māyā, what will be...

Prabhupāda: No, if you are strong, then māyā will not be able to overpower you. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te [Bg. 7.14]. Anyone who is fully surrendered to God, māyā cannot touch him.

Devotee (5): How does one become strong?

Prabhupāda: That we have given. Be strict in following the regulative principle, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

Devotee (5): Just the four regulative principles?

Prabhupāda: Yes, no illicit sex, no... This is the method, and chanting is the process. Then you will remain strong. And if you neglect, then you become weak. To remain strong is not difficult, but we don't want to remain strong. That is our decision. Otherwise it is not difficult. But we don't want to remain strong. We voluntarily become weak. Then māyā catches, "Come on."

Devotee (2): Is it necessary to see the Deity regularly in order to remain strong?

Prabhupāda: Yes, everything necessary as we have prescribed. If you think that it is not necessary, unnecessary, then you under the māyā. Why do you take that, "Is it necessary?" That means you are not strong enough. You cannot follow; therefore you say, "Is it necessary?" You are considering. That means you are becoming prey to māyā. As soon as you ask this, that means you have already fallen a victim of māyā.

Devotee (1): Kṛṣṇa says "without doubting."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: So how to get those people who are immersed in māyā to become serious? When we go out and we preach our saṅkīrtana movement, how to get...

Prabhupāda: They will become, gradually. Not all of a sudden. They are purchasing one book. They will read, and gradually they will be elevated. You go to school, but all of a sudden you cannot say that "I am M.A." You have to wait. That is called dhairya, utsāhād dhairyāt. One should be very enthusiastic, at the same time, patient. If you think that "I am very enthusiastic; still, I am not getting the result," be patient. Niścayāt. Be sure the result will come, but be patient. These are the ways. Utsāhād dhairyāt niścayāt tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt [Upadeśāmṛta 3]. You have to follow the regulative principles. Sato vṛtteḥ. You should be honest. You are not following, and still you say, "I am devotee." That means you are not honest. Sato vṛtteḥ sādhu-saṅge, and in the association of devotees. Ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati. By following these six principles, you advance. This is the Rūpa Gosvāmī's instruction.

Devotee (1): Sādhana means accepting discipline.

Prabhupāda: Eh, yes. Do you think that solving the problem of birth, death and old age and disease is very easy task? [chuckles] You have to very, very strongly... Those who do not care, that is another thing. They are under these laws, going on. Life after life, they are changing body, again birth, again death, again in the womb of mother. They do not take it seriously, how risky life is that. They do not take it. "Oh, what is that?" Now, Kali-yuga, the mother is killing the child. Even within the womb of mother is not safe. This is going on. So they do not take that how this way of life is risky and uncomfortable. They do not take it seriously. To enter again into the womb of mother, how difficult job and troublesome it is, they do not understand---for want of education.

Hari-śauri: So those persons who do not take even their material predicament seriously, then it is the same when they approach, they see our devotees. They do not take us seriously.

Prabhupāda: No, they are given chance. Even they fall down, they guaranteed best life in the next birth, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe [Bg. 6.41], to take birth in devotee's or nice brāhmaṇa's house. So they get again chance. So our point should be why another chance? Finish this business in this life. That is determination. Why another chance? I may be misled again. That should be our determination. "Finish this business, this life. One life let me be strict in following the discipline and regulative principles." This is called tapasya. So "Although it is inconvenient, I must do it to solve my problems." That is determination, dṛḍha-vrata, firm determination.

Devotee (5): They have to come to the temple to be trained up.

Prabhupāda: Temple or no temple, you must be firmly determined. You can have God realization under this tree if you have got firm determination. Anywhere you can stay. But temple is the ordinary way, facility. If you are so, I mean to say, elevated, you may not come to temple. But ordinarily, for the neophytes, they must come to the temple. Why he does not come? Does he think that he has become very elevated? That is false. Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he was not going to the Jagannātha temple, but Jagannātha was coming to him. So if you are so strong like Haridāsa Ṭhākura, that is another thing. But if you falsely think or imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura, then you go to hell. That's all. We should not falsely think that "Now I am advanced and elevated. I can do whatever I like." That is not our...

Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Lord Brahmā created something called self-deception. Would self-deception mean that if I think I am forced to fall down, but actually I wanted to fall down, but I think, "Oh, I am forced"? Is that self-deception?

Prabhupāda: Force? Force means if you violate the rules, then you are forced. If you contaminate some disease, then you are forced to suffer from the disease. If you don't contaminate, then you remain safe.

Hari-śauri: But one must come to that point of being serious to recognize the problems of life? Before one can understand your books, the karmī must become serious to understand that he is in misery and that he must get out?

Prabhupāda: So without understanding, you were initiated? Do you think? Why you were initiated if you did not understand the seriousness? Why do you take initiation? That means cheating. You do not understand; still, you show that "I am now understanding." [break]

Hari-śauri: It seems to be very difficult if they are not very serious about anything...

Prabhupāda: No, that is missionary activity, that they do not understand, but you have to make them understand. They are not calling you, "I am suffering. Please come," but it is your business to go and let them know that "You are suffering. You take this method." That is the way of becoming very quickly recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, if you think, "They are not understanding. What is the use of going there? Let me sleep," that is not good. They are not understanding; still, you have to go. Then Kṛṣṇa will take that "He is laboring so hard for My sake." Never mind he is successful. It doesn't matter. But you are working hard for Kṛṣṇa. That is noted down. So our business is to be recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Whether one man is converted or not converted, that is not our business. We shall try our best. But Kṛṣṇa must see that I am giving service to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is wanted. Not that you have to judge that you have approached so many men; nobody became Kṛṣṇa conscious. That doesn't matter. But you have gone there.

You have endeavored your sincere effort. That is recognized by Kṛṣṇa. That is the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128] = "Whomever you meet, you give him, you inform him the instruction of Kṛṣṇa." Caitanya Mahāprabhu never said that "You see that he has actually become Kṛṣṇa conscious." Never says. You simply say and go and say. That is your business. It is not that you have to see that he has become Kṛṣṇa conscious. It is not so easy to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. It is not so easy. It will take, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19], after many, many births. But you have to do your duty. Go and preach. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Your duty is finished. Of course, you will try to convert him. If he is not converted, that is not deviation of your duty. You have to simply go and speak. Just like when I came to your country, I never expected any success because I knew, "As soon as I will say, 'No illicit sex, no meat-eating,' they will reject me immediately." [laughter] So I was not hopeful at all.

Devotee (1): They are so attached.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But it is your kindness that you accepted me. But I never expected. I never expected that "These people will accept." I never expected.

Hari-śauri: So simply if we rely on Kṛṣṇa...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our only business.

Hari-śauri: And if we look for results, then...

Prabhupāda: And we should do our duty as prescribed by the spiritual master. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Then both sides, you will be favored = from the spiritual master and from Kṛṣṇa. And that is the success. My Guru Mahārāja was publishing one paper, Dainika Nadiya Prakash. It was worth two paisa or one paisa. So if a brahmacārī could sell a few copies, he would have been so glad. You see? The collection was not even four annas. Still, he was so glad that "Oh, you have distributed so much." Our business is to carry out the order, not to see success. Success is not so easy. That is not so easy.

Hari-śauri: Is this the reason why others who have preceded yourself earlier on, is this the reason why they were not successful, because they were trying to judge the results?

Prabhupāda: Who?

Hari-śauri: Others who have come before yourself? When they tried to preach in the Western countries?

Prabhupāda: They did not try. They came officially, and that's all. Not even tried to preach this.

Devotee (1): Just like Arjuna on the battlefield, you simply had to try for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Arjuna said, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava [Bg. 18.73] = "Yes, I shall carry out Your order, nothing else. Yes, You are asking me to fight, I will fight." That's all.

Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, if one goes to the temple, if one attends the temple regularly and inquires from the devotees about the devotional principles, and because of some reason, he's not necessarily..., it's not convenient for him to live in the temple at that time, and he is living with people...

Prabhupāda: No, no, you live in temple or without temple, if you follow the instruction, that is wanted. If you live without temple and chant sixteen rounds and observe the regulative principle, that's all right. It doesn't require that you should live in the temple. And if you live in the temple and do all nonsense, then what is the use of living in the temple?

Devotee: Is it wrong to think of initiation then? Or initiated also?

Prabhupāda: Their "thinking" means they are not fixed up. That very word suggest that they are not fixed up. Oh, initiation can take place anywhere.

Śrutakīrti: He's saying those that are initiated, must they live in the temple? He's making the...

Prabhupāda: No, no, must follow the regulative principle, not that must live in temple.

Devotee (6): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how can one use marriage to reach back home, go back to Godhead? How can one use the sacrifice of marriage...

Prabhupāda: Marriage done, that...[?] Yes, marriage must be done in the temple. What is this sound? This lake is being filled up, or...?

Devotee (1): Some construction.

Devotee (2): They're remodeling the garden, extending the lake, remodeling the garden.

Prabhupāda: Oh. [end]